Questions About WesternU's Optometry Program

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My name is Marie and I work in the Admissions Office at Western University of Health Sciences (WesternU). Since the new application cycle is underway, I want to let you know that I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about our program or the application process in general. I'll do my best to provide you with honest and helpful feedback. You can post your question here, send me a private message or just email me.

So, if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Best of luck to you!

Marie
Admissions Office
WesternU College of Optometry
http://prospective.westernu.edu/optometry/welcome
 
WesternU Adm said:
My name is Marie and I work in the Admissions Office at Western University of Health Sciences (WesternU). Since the new application cycle is underway, I want to let you know that I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about our program or the application process in general. I'll do my best to provide you with honest and helpful feedback. You can post your question here, send me a private message or just email me.

So, if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Best of luck to you!

Marie
Admissions Office
WesternU College of Optometry
http://prospective.westernu.edu/optometry/welcome
Click to expand...

Hi Marie,

I have a comment. How do you feel working at an institution that is contributing to the further decline of the profession? Everyone knows we don't need any additional OD schools. Studies have proven what most of us practicing optometrists have known for a while-- we have HUGE surplus of optometrists and it's killing the profession.
 
WesternU Adm said:
My name is Marie and I work in the Admissions Office at Western University of Health Sciences (WesternU). Since the new application cycle is underway, I want to let you know that I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about our program or the application process in general. I'll do my best to provide you with honest and helpful feedback. You can post your question here, send me a private message or just email me.

So, if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Best of luck to you!

Marie
Admissions Office
WesternU College of Optometry
http://prospective.westernu.edu/optometry/welcome
Click to expand...

Hello Marie,

As someone who works in admissions at WesternU College of Optometry, you may be unaware the reasons why so many ODs are furious that there is yet another OD program starting its engines, particularly when it's 20 minutes away from an existing OD program that turns out nearly 100 optometrists every year into a region that is over-flowing with ODs. Southern California, and Los Angeles County especially, is overrun with optometrists and it makes it extremely difficult for new grads to find enough work to pay their bills. Many practicing ODs are concerned, and rightfully so, that our profession is being annihilated by new schools flooding the US with more and more ODs, reducing the worth and earning power of each of us, including the students you are in the process of training.

Philip Pumerantz, Ph.D., the president at Western and Elizabeth Hoppe, OD, MPH, DrPH, the founding dean are undoubtedly benefiting financially from the establishment of Western's OD program. President's and deans routinely make incomes in the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's no wonder that they are pushing the program. The question is, why is the program needed?

Please, for the benefit of the students on this forum whom you are trying to reach, ask either or both of those two people this question;

"Why is our program necessary given the current state of optometry when there are already far too many ODs in the US?"

If you could ask them and let us know what their response is, I'm sure it would go a long way in addressing the confusion and downright outrage that many practicing ODs are feeling right now in response to Western's OD program and other new ones starting up across the country.

Just so you know, the income figures listed on your website are very deceiving. A range of 96,000 to 175,000 implies to your prospective applicants that they can come out of school and expect to make something in that range. They almost certainly cannot. Right now law schools are being sued by their graduates who leave school to discover that they were misled into thinking that they can have a solid career with good income potential. WesternU College of Optometry is going to risk the same fallout if misleading figures are listed on the website when your graduates discover what they got in exchange for their 200K educational expense.

A more accurate picture of income potential, especially for anyone who hopes to stay in southern California, would be to say that after graduation:

You'll need to find several PT jobs in commercial settings like Walmart, Costco, Sam's Club, and Sears and in that setting, your income will vary from month to month. You might make 40K in a year or you might make 70K, but you really won't make much more than 70K. If you're one of the tiny percentage of new grads that finds a private practice job, you'll very likely make between 65K and 80K and after paying your student loans, your income will be about that of an elementary school teacher. That's what you can expect in a few years when you graduate. You will not be making anywhere near 96K. The figures that support a range of 96K to 175K are swayed by established ODs who own successful practices, the kind that you will not be able to start or very likely purchase after graduating.

Good luck in optometry!!

That would be a much more accurate summary of the income your grads can expect. Just an fyi. 😀


After you ask them those questions, let them know that optometrists are not going to stand by indefinitely and watch their profession drowned before their eyes. As time goes on and the problem continues to worsen, more and more animosity will be directed at new OD programs by the profession. No one holds anything against you, personally, but the school you work for is contributing to the destruction of the entire optometric profession and a lot of us are fed up with it.
 
Last edited:
Thank you both for sharing your opinion and your concerns. While my thread is intended to help applicants navigate the application process and school selection, I did forward your question/concern to our Dean and have included her reply below.

Based on the best public health information and statistical data available today, the United States is expected to experience a shortage of all health care providers. Below are some links for more information, including articles that have been published in the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. The main points relate to expected increases in demand for health care due to improved access through health care reform, increased needs for services due to the aging population, and increased rates of eye disease associated with the diabetes epidemic. In addition, the United States has always had a geographic maldistribution of eye care providers, meaning that some areas have higher concentrations of providers, where other areas (such as rural and urban settings) remain underserved. We often find that people form opinions based on their personal experiences or personal frustrations, rather than based on health policy predictions. We always urge potential students to investigate all of the information and to receive input from a variety of sources. When weighing the evidence to reach a conclusion, we advise all of our current and future students to do the research themselves by looking at primary information sources rather than relying on one person’s opinion. In addition to the articles shown below, there is a lot of information from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Occupational Outlook, the American Public Health Association, and Health and Human Services. Other research publications with workforce projections can be found in the published literature in peer-reviewed manuscripts.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304506904575180331528424238.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/health/policy/27care.html

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=162934
 
Respectfully, I find that letter from the Dean to be alarming and grossly out of touch with what those of us who actually have "boots on the ground" are seeing and experiencing.

The words eye, optometrist or ophthalmologist do not appear in any of those articles.

The word "diabetes" appears once in 2 out of the three articles.


I would like to pose these questions:

1) With respect to the supposed maldistrobution of eye care providers, I would challenge anyone to point out any part of the country where one can not get a routine, non emergent eye examination within 2 days and within one hours drive.

2) But supposing for a minute this mal-distrobution actually exists, what steps if any is WesternU or any other of the schools or colleges taking to address that mal-distrobution? What evidence, if any do they have that their graduates actually desire to practice in these underserved areas?

3) The AOA and the AAO already have published manpower studies which project an oversupply of eye care providers relative to demand for at least the next 30 years. That was even without any of the new schools we've seen come online in the last 4 years. Again.....this need for eye care providers is coming from.....where?? Obamacare?
 
Not only that but here: http://www.npr.org/2011/08/12/139580434/appeals-court-rejects-health-insurance-mandate

The health insurance mandate that was supposed to add 30 million new patients is now repealed. Even more reasons why more optometry schools are unnecessary. And no we are not just saying this because we want all the patients to ourselves. Call up any OD just like KHE said and you will not have a problem seeing them almost immediately and they would probably be happy to see you on a weekend or evening too 🙂
 
WesternU Adm said:
Thank you both for sharing your opinion and your concerns. While my thread is intended to help applicants navigate the application process and school selection, I did forward your question/concern to our Dean and have included her reply below.

Based on the best public health information and statistical data available today, the United States is expected to experience a shortage of all health care providers. Below are some links for more information, including articles that have been published in the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. The main points relate to expected increases in demand for health care due to improved access through health care reform, increased needs for services due to the aging population, and increased rates of eye disease associated with the diabetes epidemic. In addition, the United States has always had a geographic maldistribution of eye care providers, meaning that some areas have higher concentrations of providers, where other areas (such as rural and urban settings) remain underserved. We often find that people form opinions based on their personal experiences or personal frustrations, rather than based on health policy predictions. We always urge potential students to investigate all of the information and to receive input from a variety of sources. When weighing the evidence to reach a conclusion, we advise all of our current and future students to do the research themselves by looking at primary information sources rather than relying on one person's opinion. In addition to the articles shown below, there is a lot of information from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Occupational Outlook, the American Public Health Association, and Health and Human Services. Other research publications with workforce projections can be found in the published literature in peer-reviewed manuscripts.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304506904575180331528424238.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/health/policy/27care.html

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=162934
Click to expand...

Hello Marie,

I thank you sincerely for forwarding my questions on to your dean. I understand this thread is for students so I will not continue to post on this thread, other than to respond to the dean's statement.

Dr. Hoppe, all the articles you cited discuss the need for primary care physicians graduating from US medical schools. These articles make no mention of, and have nothing to do with any need for optometrists. It is widely known by practicing ODs that there are far too many optometrists in the US at this moment and the problem has been mounting for years. This is something that practicing ODs know all too well, but somehow applicants to OD programs don't know. The addition of several new private, for-profit OD programs is a source of outrage among optometrists nationwide. Please don't belittle their concerns by attempting to justify your program's existence with a list of some articles which clearly have nothing to do with the problem at hand. You might as well have supplied links to some articles on the current need for attorneys. Optometrists graduate from optometry school, not medical school. Your choice of articles only lends credibility to my assertion.

Regarding your comment about underserved areas. While the vast majority of the US is overrun with optometrists, there are, in deed, some very isolated and very rare parts of the country that could benefit from an optometrist moving into town. They are, as a rule, places that most optometry graduates do not wish to live. I am quite certain you are far more intelligent than your reasoning behind opening a new program to address a minute number of underserved areas. Is that your answer? Just add more and more graduates until a few decide to move to rural New Mexico or Kentucky? The solution to that very small concern is to create incentives for existing grads to move and practice in those areas. So, tell me, what makes you think that any of your grads will choose to practice in an underserved area?

You can continue to present misleading information on your program's website, luring students into the trap that is optometry school, but at some point, your gravy train will reach its last stop. Optometrists are talking a lot right now. They're talking about how they can stop the dilution and destruction of our profession by schools with only one goal in mind, making money off the backs of its students. They're not going to go away and neither is the problem your school and other new programs are contributing to. Your prospective applicants need to know that what you are advertising is not what they're getting and there are plenty of us out there who are willing to let them know.

If you wish to continue this dialogue, I'd urge you to visit ODWire and read the numerous discussions that are taking place about your school, other new OD programs, and the oversupply issue in general. I'm sure your input into those discussions would be greatly appreciated. You're being talked about so you might as well give your side of the story.

I will also start a new thread on this forum to which you and other representatives of new programs can participate in a dialogue about where the profession is and where it's headed in light of the problems we are facing. Maybe Lesley Walls over at the new Massachusetts OD program would care to comment as well.
 
Last edited:
:highfive:
Jason K said:
Hello Marie,

I thank you sincerely for forwarding my questions on to your dean. I understand this thread is for students so I will not continue to post on this thread, other than to respond to the dean’s statement.

Dr. Hoppe, all the articles you cited discuss the need for primary care physicians graduating from US medical schools. These articles make no mention of, and have nothing to do with any need for optometrists. It is widely known by practicing ODs that there are far too many optometrists in the US at this moment and the problem has been mounting for years. This is something that practicing ODs know all too well, but somehow applicants to OD programs don’t know. The addition of several new private, for-profit OD programs is a source of outrage among optometrists nationwide. Please don’t belittle their concerns by attempting to justify your program’s existence with a list of some articles which clearly have nothing to do with the problem at hand. You might as well have supplied links to some articles on the current need for attorneys. Optometrists graduate from optometry school, not medical school. Your choice of articles only lends credibility to my assertion.

Regarding your comment about underserved areas. While the vast majority of the US is overrun with optometrists, there are, in deed, some very isolated and very rare parts of the country that could benefit from an optometrist moving into town. They are, as a rule, places that most optometry graduates do not wish to live. I am quite certain you are far more intelligent than your reasoning behind opening a new program to address a minute number of underserved areas. Is that your answer? Just add more and more graduates until a few decide to move to rural New Mexico or Kentucky? The solution to that very small concern is to create incentives for existing grads to move and practice in those areas. So, tell me, what makes you think that any of your grads will choose to practice in an underserved area?

You can continue to present misleading information on your program's website, luring students into the trap that is optometry school, but at some point, your gravy train will reach its last stop. Optometrists are talking a lot right now. They’re talking about how they can stop the dilution and destruction of our profession by schools with only one goal in mind, making money off the backs of its students. They’re not going to go away and neither is the problem your school and other new programs are contributing to. Your prospective applicants need to know that what you are advertising is not what they’re getting and there are plenty of us out there who are willing to let them know.

If you wish to continue this dialogue, I'd urge you to visit ODWire and read the numerous discussions that are taking place about your school, other new OD programs, and the oversupply issue in general. I'm sure your input into those discussions would be greatly appreciated. You're being talked about so you might as well give your side of the story.

I will also start a new thread on this forum to which you and other representatives of new programs can participate in a dialogue about where the profession is and where it's headed in light of the problems we are facing. Maybe Lesley Walls over at the new Massachusetts OD program would care to comment as well.
Click to expand...
👍 !!
 
As someone who has been working very hard the past few years to fulfill their dream of becoming an optometrist and just pressed the submit button last month, this is very depressing to read. Do you guys think that there is no need for new optometrists at all? Or that we shouldn't go to WesternU? Cause it sounds like your saying that were screwed regardless.
 
abjs1111 said:
As someone who has been working very hard the past few years to fulfill their dream of becoming an optometrist and just pressed the submit button last month, this is very depressing to read. Do you guys think that there is no need for new optometrists at all? Or that we shouldn't go to WesternU? Cause it sounds like your saying that were screwed regardless.
Click to expand...

abjs1111, I posted a response to your post on the RE: Justification for New Optometry Programs thread in this forum.
 
abjs1111 said:
As someone who has been working very hard the past few years to fulfill their dream of becoming an optometrist and just pressed the submit button last month, this is very depressing to read. Do you guys think that there is no need for new optometrists at all? Or that we shouldn't go to WesternU? Cause it sounds like your saying that were screwed regardless.
Click to expand...

I think that there is no need for any new optometry schools or optometrists at all for that matter.

That being said, I would not discourage you from attending school. What you need to do though is have a plan for your career when you graduate and you have to start planning now so you can make it happen.

Don't enter school thinking "I'll worry about that all that stuff later. I just want to pass boards" or anything like that. Start planning and working towards what you want now.
 
I'm assuming the 2009 cohort was the first cohort due to the OP's join date. 🙂
 
WesternU Adm want to post some relevant articles pertaining to optometrists? Or are you just going to continue to give BS responses to hundreds of new applicants about the status of this profession because you get paid to do it? Can you live with yourself lying to all these students with dreams and the sacrifices they are making?
 
As I've mentioned in my previous posts, this thread was started to help prospective students prepare for and navigate through the application process or ask questions about our specific program. I've already received several private messages with questions related to these topics.

I am not here to talk about the status of the profession. Those prospective students who typically ask me questions have already decided that optometry is a profession they wish to pursue.

I will be happy to reply to any future posts from prospective students who need assistance with the process.

Best wishes,
Marie



Shnurek said:
WesternU Adm want to post some relevant articles pertaining to optometrists? Or are you just going to continue to give BS responses to hundreds of new applicants about the status of this profession because you get paid to do it? Can you live with yourself lying to all these students with dreams and the sacrifices they are making?
Click to expand...
 
What is the admit rate and total number of received applications from the 2009-2011 entering years?
 
I was looking through your web site and I wanted to know what types of Research programs available for Optometry?
 
WesternU Adm said:
As I've mentioned in my previous posts, this thread was started to help prospective students prepare for and navigate through the application process or ask questions about our specific program. I've already received several private messages with questions related to these topics.

I am not here to talk about the status of the profession. Those prospective students who typically ask me questions have already decided that optometry is a profession they wish to pursue.

I will be happy to reply to any future posts from prospective students who need assistance with the process.

Best wishes,
Marie
Click to expand...

yztqp.gif
 
What role does Marie play in Western U's optometry program? Is she a recruiter?
 
Below is the information you requested...

2011 Entering Class: 794 applications, 226 interviewed, 176 offered, 86 in the class

2010 Entering Class: 697 applications, 188 interviewed, 155 offered, 86 in the class

2009 Entering Class: 380 applications, 174 interviewed, 133 offered, 78 in the class

Have a great day!
Marie


Judgment Dragon said:
What is the admit rate and total number of received applications from the 2009-2011 entering years?
Click to expand...
 
Will Western U post a distribution of GPA, OAT scores, etc. for its rejected and accepted students?

I don't mean just averages and ranges, I mean like actual distributions of data.
 
Judgment Dragon said:
Will Western U post a distribution of GPA, OAT scores, etc. for its rejected and accepted students?

I don't mean just averages and ranges, I mean like actual distributions of data.
Click to expand...


fall 2011 is not available yet
http://www.opted.org/files/public/Profile of the Entering Class 2010FINALpdf.pdf

http://www.opted.org/files/Applicant_Admissions_Data_Table_2010.pdf

i dont think any school releases distribution for rejected students
anyways, scco also has this on their website http://scco.edu/admissions/optometryfuture.html
 
WesternU's 2011 entering class statistics will be posted to our web site within the next week or so. You'll find them at http://prospective.westernu.edu/optometry/competitive. The 2011 numbers will be similar.


iammc said:
fall 2011 is not available yet
http://www.opted.org/files/public/Profile of the Entering Class 2010FINALpdf.pdf

http://www.opted.org/files/Applicant_Admissions_Data_Table_2010.pdf

i dont think any school releases distribution for rejected students
anyways, scco also has this on their website http://scco.edu/admissions/optometryfuture.html
Click to expand...
 
What is the average mount in grants per year that Western U awards to each student?
 
Jason K said:
Hello Marie,

I thank you sincerely for forwarding my questions on to your dean. I understand this thread is for students so I will not continue to post on this thread, other than to respond to the dean's statement.

Dr. Hoppe, all the articles you cited discuss the need for primary care physicians graduating from US medical schools. These articles make no mention of, and have nothing to do with any need for optometrists. It is widely known by practicing ODs that there are far too many optometrists in the US at this moment and the problem has been mounting for years. This is something that practicing ODs know all too well, but somehow applicants to OD programs don't know. The addition of several new private, for-profit OD programs is a source of outrage among optometrists nationwide. Please don't belittle their concerns by attempting to justify your program's existence with a list of some articles which clearly have nothing to do with the problem at hand. You might as well have supplied links to some articles on the current need for attorneys. Optometrists graduate from optometry school, not medical school. Your choice of articles only lends credibility to my assertion.

Regarding your comment about underserved areas. While the vast majority of the US is overrun with optometrists, there are, in deed, some very isolated and very rare parts of the country that could benefit from an optometrist moving into town. They are, as a rule, places that most optometry graduates do not wish to live. I am quite certain you are far more intelligent than your reasoning behind opening a new program to address a minute number of underserved areas. Is that your answer? Just add more and more graduates until a few decide to move to rural New Mexico or Kentucky? The solution to that very small concern is to create incentives for existing grads to move and practice in those areas. So, tell me, what makes you think that any of your grads will choose to practice in an underserved area?

You can continue to present misleading information on your program's website, luring students into the trap that is optometry school, but at some point, your gravy train will reach its last stop. Optometrists are talking a lot right now. They're talking about how they can stop the dilution and destruction of our profession by schools with only one goal in mind, making money off the backs of its students. They're not going to go away and neither is the problem your school and other new programs are contributing to. Your prospective applicants need to know that what you are advertising is not what they're getting and there are plenty of us out there who are willing to let them know.

If you wish to continue this dialogue, I'd urge you to visit ODWire and read the numerous discussions that are taking place about your school, other new OD programs, and the oversupply issue in general. I'm sure your input into those discussions would be greatly appreciated. You're being talked about so you might as well give your side of the story.

I will also start a new thread on this forum to which you and other representatives of new programs can participate in a dialogue about where the profession is and where it's headed in light of the problems we are facing. Maybe Lesley Walls over at the new Massachusetts OD program would care to comment as well.
Click to expand...


As an ophthalmologist I want to commend some of the optometrists on this forum for standing up for their profession. Someone needs to hold these new schools accountable, which are undoubtedly opening up for profit and not based on actual need. For the overwhelming majority of the country there is clearly no need for additional eye care providers. And the proper way to address any existing shortage is through incentives, as Jason pointed out, rather than opening new schools. One fundamental difference between medicine and optometry is that in medicine, the supply of physicians is limited by the number of training slots available, based largely on need. Any profession that doesn't respect the laws of supply and demand is doomed to be plagued with problems.
 
Last edited:
Does Western U offer full ride scholarships without the use of loans nor work study to top applicants who have high GPAs and OAT scores?
 
speyeder said:
As an ophthalmologist I want to commend some of the optometrists on this forum for standing up for their profession. Someone needs to hold these new schools accountable, which are undoubtedly opening up for profit and not based on actual need. For the overwhelming majority of the country there is clearly no need for additional eye care providers. And the proper way to address any existing shortage is through incentives, as Jason pointed out, rather than opening new schools. One fundamental difference between medicine and optometry is that in medicine, the supply of physicians is limited by the number of training slots available, based largely on need. Any profession that doesn't respect the laws of supply and demand are doomed to be plagued with problems.
Click to expand...

At this point the only way it is going to happen is once all those people with 150k worth of debt coming out of optometry school will find themselves only making 80k a year in private practice because of oversupply and will take 20-30 years to pay off their loans because of how quickly they will accrue interest. Then they will realize their mistake and will leave the field simply by laissez-faire economics.

DO NOT GO INTO OPTOMETRY UNLESS YOU KNOW THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

It is an extremely narrow field and I have classmates that say they hate glass/contact lenses, well guess what, unless you are in the top 3% of your class where you will be doing research (most likely on contact lenses) or you will move to rural oklahoma, 90% of your income will come from refractions aka glasses and contact lenses.
 
Unfortunately, we do not offer full ride scholarships. We should soon be able to offer some small scholarships to some students. I do know that our Financial Aid Office keeps students updated on scholarships they might be eligible for.

Best wishes,
Marie

Judgment Dragon said:
Does Western U offer full ride scholarships without the use of loans nor work study to top applicants who have high GPAs and OAT scores?
Click to expand...
 
What is the lowest GPA and OAT score a person ever got that was admitted to Western U?
 
Judgment Dragon said:
Well Marie shouldn't really be embarrassed about answering the question since it is understandable for Western U to admit almost anyone to fill up their seats.
Click to expand...

Hey, gotta rip off all those new incoming students. $30k a year x 4 years = $120,000 x 88 students per class = $10,560,000
Good business plan 🙂

Don't worry that 1/3 of your classmates have below 3.0 GPA's.
Don't worry that private practice Optometrists will not hire you.
Don't worry that California already has two established Optometry schools that already saturate the state with optometrists.

Just hand them the money 👍
 
optohopeful123 said:
or maybe she doesnt want to bother with disingenuous people like you
Click to expand...

Marie gets her paycheck if she promotes students to WesternU. Not by being honest and giving out real unbiased information 🙂
 
Can you get an interview invite before turning in a supplemental application?
 
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