Questions regarding research

[pandoraone]

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Hey All,

I am currently interested in derm and have a strong interest in research. As I read up here on the derm forum, I see many people saying they have 6 papers and tha is what you need to be successful in the match (as part of the whole app). Is that correct? As a second year student, what is a good number of papers to aim for?

Also, when they say papers does that mean 6 papers in JAAD as a first author or just 6 publications overall as varying levels of authorships?

Finally, there was one student from my school last year who left in 4 years iwth 12 papers in derm (most 2nd, 3rd, author, a few 1st😉 - I did not get a chance to talk to him but is this common? How do people be so productive?

Thanks

 

[asmallchild]

Hey All,

I am currently interested in derm and have a strong interest in research. As I read up here on the derm forum, I see many people saying they have 6 papers and tha is what you need to be successful in the match (as part of the whole app). Is that correct? As a second year student, what is a good number of papers to aim for?

Also, when they say papers does that mean 6 papers in JAAD as a first author or just 6 publications overall as varying levels of authorships?

Finally, there was one student from my school last year who left in 4 years iwth 12 papers in derm (most 2nd, 3rd, author, a few 1st😉 - I did not get a chance to talk to him but is this common? How do people be so productive?

Thanks

Advice will vary from institution to institution. At my program, research is not a key component of the application profile as we just do not churn out many physician/scientists. 6 papers from a student would be an outlier at our program and may even be a red flag (our place, unfortunately, is not one to pursue major research endeavors)

The advice I give students who are looking to match at our institution (or similar ones) is to do research that you can intelligently and enthusiastically talk about at interviews. Publication is a mere perk. Again, this is advice that will vary widely from place to place and likely not the same advice you would receive if asking residents from more high-powered academic institutions.

We also tend to look at research as being more significant if it's within the context of having taken a year off. Fair or not, I assume that students who publish prolifically without having taken time off have had major help from the other listed authors.

 

[dermathalon]

Hey All,

I am currently interested in derm and have a strong interest in research. As I read up here on the derm forum, I see many people saying they have 6 papers and tha is what you need to be successful in the match (as part of the whole app). Is that correct? As a second year student, what is a good number of papers to aim for?

Also, when they say papers does that mean 6 papers in JAAD as a first author or just 6 publications overall as varying levels of authorships?

Finally, there was one student from my school last year who left in 4 years iwth 12 papers in derm (most 2nd, 3rd, author, a few 1st😉 - I did not get a chance to talk to him but is this common? How do people be so productive?

Thanks

This is an excellent question although I'm sure it's been asked many times. Over the course of medical school it is very reasonable to have 6 papers. A few people had more than double that by the end of medical school (some that had many 1st author papers, so it is more than just "possible"). A lot depends on how you approach it and who you work with. There are a few factors though.

1) When did you start? Some people start right out of the gate with developing a relationship and if you start during the first year, you have a significant advantage. If you are a third year, it's possible to get many publications in the works but not that easy to publish them all since peer review takes time.

2) Work ethic. The harder you work, the more you can publish but it depends based on point 3.

3) What kind of articles are you publishing. Basic science takes time. If you get out even 1 basic science article through medical school, that's impressive. Many times this does require a year off although a few have been able to do it without a year off but this requires skipping a lot of classes in the firs two years (and not highly advised depending on how the school grades, takes attendance, etc). However, if you work on a mix of review articles, case reports, short chart review studies, etc. you can bump the publication count up.

4) Mentor. The most important. A good mentor will help you create a plan that fits you rather than using a cookie cutter method of "this is what has worked with students in the past." Maybe your a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year. Maybe you do want to take time off. They customize. Also, they need to listen to your interests. Sure, you will not know what part of derm is the most interesting but you do have interests in life and you educational history. Then they will get a line up of projects that are a mix of super short term (case reports and case series), short (chart reviews with other faculty that may need help), reviews (can be short or longer and can include book chapters too), long (if you have time to engage in a pilot study, survey study, or small clinical study), longer term (basic science if that fits with the mentor's and your interests...not always possible) A good mentor will see how your interests may fit (within reason) so that you feel more genuine connection to the projects and this help work ethic as well. And yes, these mentors exist but it requires that they are truly interested in 1) mentoring and 2) understanding who you are and what makes you tick rather then just using you as a working hand. Frankly, this is a little luck.

A year off will give you more time to accomplish these things but I think people can make meaningful progress even without it if they really do work hard. The benefit of a year off is that it give you time to work on revisions, replies to reviews, etc. which can help you achieve more pubs by the time you graduate.

Publications (especially first author pubs) show that you can take a project and move it to the end and that is impressive, but only if you can talk about them.

However, there are students that really do put in the work to make these pubs happen. I would say that when a student really publishes a lot (with majority first or second-author), they are already an outlier and many truly did it with sheer hard work, a good mentor, and a little luck never hurts.

 

[MilkIsGood]

This is an excellent question although I'm sure it's been asked many times. Over the course of medical school it is very reasonable to have 6 papers. A few people had more than double that by the end of medical school (some that had many 1st author papers, so it is more than just "possible"). A lot depends on how you approach it and who you work with. There are a few factors though.

1) When did you start? Some people start right out of the gate with developing a relationship and if you start during the first year, you have a significant advantage. If you are a third year, it's possible to get many publications in the works but not that easy to publish them all since peer review takes time.

2) Work ethic. The harder you work, the more you can publish but it depends based on point 3.

3) What kind of articles are you publishing. Basic science takes time. If you get out even 1 basic science article through medical school, that's impressive. Many times this does require a year off although a few have been able to do it without a year off but this requires skipping a lot of classes in the firs two years (and not highly advised depending on how the school grades, takes attendance, etc). However, if you work on a mix of review articles, case reports, short chart review studies, etc. you can bump the publication count up.

4) Mentor. The most important. A good mentor will help you create a plan that fits you rather than using a cookie cutter method of "this is what has worked with students in the past." Maybe your a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year. Maybe you do want to take time off. They customize. Also, they need to listen to your interests. Sure, you will not know what part of derm is the most interesting but you do have interests in life and you educational history. Then they will get a line up of projects that are a mix of super short term (case reports and case series), short (chart reviews with other faculty that may need help), reviews (can be short or longer and can include book chapters too), long (if you have time to engage in a pilot study, survey study, or small clinical study), longer term (basic science if that fits with the mentor's and your interests...not always possible) A good mentor will see how your interests may fit (within reason) so that you feel more genuine connection to the projects and this help work ethic as well. And yes, these mentors exist but it requires that they are truly interested in 1) mentoring and 2) understanding who you are and what makes you tick rather then just using you as a working hand. Frankly, this is a little luck.

A year off will give you more time to accomplish these things but I think people can make meaningful progress even without it if they really do work hard. The benefit of a year off is that it give you time to work on revisions, replies to reviews, etc. which can help you achieve more pubs by the time you graduate.

Publications (especially first author pubs) show that you can take a project and move it to the end and that is impressive, but only if you can talk about them.

However, there are students that really do put in the work to make these pubs happen. I would say that when a student really publishes a lot (with majority first or second-author), they are already an outlier and many truly did it with sheer hard work, a good mentor, and a little luck never hurts.

Would it look bad if I started showing an interest in derm starting 1st year, have a derm project the summer after 1st, but not able to get a publication from this project. Not a whole lot of derm research at my school and derm faculty/division is small. Should I try to get a case study this summer as well?

 

[dermathalon]

Would it look bad if I started showing an interest in derm starting 1st year, have a derm project the summer after 1st, but not able to get a publication from this project. Not a whole lot of derm research at my school and derm faculty/division is small. Should I try to get a case study this summer as well?

Publications are the currency of research, so you need to publish.

A case study is great but you should aim for other publications and collaborations as well. Have you approached the faculty at your program to see if there is any research in the works or other publications opportunities that you can work toward.

 

[MilkIsGood]

Publications are the currency of research, so you need to publish.

A case study is great but you should aim for other publications and collaborations as well. Have you approached the faculty at your program to see if there is any research in the works or other publications opportunities that you can work toward.

I havent yet. Would it be appropriate to email them and straight up ask them about publication opportunities?

 

[dermathalon]

I havent yet. Would it be appropriate to email them and straight up ask them about publication opportunities?

It's how you do it. Cold emailing about publications can be met with skepticism (justifiable or not). You need to approach faculty that you have spent time with and feel that connection. Since you are early, the way to do it is to ask to set up a meeting with someone that you find interesting, or better yet someone with whom other students have had a good experience (this is so valuable on so many levels). Then you need to honestly let them know that you are interested in derm and see what opportunities there have where you could work on a research area. It's a win win because you learn more about the field, get a publication if you work hard, and the faculty gets a hard working individual that helps with publication as well.

If you just go in saying "Do you have a publication opportunity" it doesn't tend to sit well and there may be an ickiness about it if you haven't made any effort to get to know them beyond that.

You may run into arrogant people and people that will truly think they are better than you. It's not uncommon in derm unfortunately when people tend to feel a little entitled because they have typically done well numerically and the field is so darm competitive. Don't let this discourage if you are unlucky to meet one of these people (becoming more uncommon nowadays). I've found that people that are truly confident and don't did derm for the right reasons (genuine interest in the field) tend to be very very helpful whereas the ones that i know that did not (only cared about money, did the minimum when no one is looking) are on the path to burn out if not there already.

 

[pandoraone]

This is an excellent question although I'm sure it's been asked many times. Over the course of medical school it is very reasonable to have 6 papers. A few people had more than double that by the end of medical school (some that had many 1st author papers, so it is more than just "possible"). A lot depends on how you approach it and who you work with. There are a few factors though.

1) When did you start? Some people start right out of the gate with developing a relationship and if you start during the first year, you have a significant advantage. If you are a third year, it's possible to get many publications in the works but not that easy to publish them all since peer review takes time.

2) Work ethic. The harder you work, the more you can publish but it depends based on point 3.

3) What kind of articles are you publishing. Basic science takes time. If you get out even 1 basic science article through medical school, that's impressive. Many times this does require a year off although a few have been able to do it without a year off but this requires skipping a lot of classes in the firs two years (and not highly advised depending on how the school grades, takes attendance, etc). However, if you work on a mix of review articles, case reports, short chart review studies, etc. you can bump the publication count up.

4) Mentor. The most important. A good mentor will help you create a plan that fits you rather than using a cookie cutter method of "this is what has worked with students in the past." Maybe your a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year. Maybe you do want to take time off. They customize. Also, they need to listen to your interests. Sure, you will not know what part of derm is the most interesting but you do have interests in life and you educational history. Then they will get a line up of projects that are a mix of super short term (case reports and case series), short (chart reviews with other faculty that may need help), reviews (can be short or longer and can include book chapters too), long (if you have time to engage in a pilot study, survey study, or small clinical study), longer term (basic science if that fits with the mentor's and your interests...not always possible) A good mentor will see how your interests may fit (within reason) so that you feel more genuine connection to the projects and this help work ethic as well. And yes, these mentors exist but it requires that they are truly interested in 1) mentoring and 2) understanding who you are and what makes you tick rather then just using you as a working hand. Frankly, this is a little luck.

A year off will give you more time to accomplish these things but I think people can make meaningful progress even without it if they really do work hard. The benefit of a year off is that it give you time to work on revisions, replies to reviews, etc. which can help you achieve more pubs by the time you graduate.

Publications (especially first author pubs) show that you can take a project and move it to the end and that is impressive, but only if you can talk about them.

However, there are students that really do put in the work to make these pubs happen. I would say that when a student really publishes a lot (with majority first or second-author), they are already an outlier and many truly did it with sheer hard work, a good mentor, and a little luck never hurts.

Wow! hearing about people like that is quite intimidating but I guess it makes sense in such a competitive field. As of now I have mostly 4+ authorships on 4 papers (clinical studies + reviews). I will have 2 first authorship papers (a review and a case report) but that is about it.

Should I try and get more first authorship papers? It is much easier to get more papers as a late authorship - so which one is worth more? 1 first author or 2-3 late authorships?