Quick favor re: wilderness first aid kit

[tkim]

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Pepper spray only makes you taste spicy to the bear.

horsesh*t. funny thing to say, i'll admit, but you'll respect the spray when the bear charges.

I've never used it to repell a bear attack, as I've never been attacked by a bear. Have you? Just curious, as you seem to be posturing that way.

 

[ERMudPhud]

On a cynical note- do you think a federal government website would publicly condone carrying of firearms? Imagine the lawsuits referencing this in accidental discharges..

I'm not sure I understand. Who would you sue if you accidently shot yourself or another member of your group with a gun you were carrying to shoot bears? The gun manufacturer? The forest service for letting you carry it? The government web site for encouraging it? As for the government condoning people carrying weapons I think they've been doing that ever since they put that amendment in the constitution. 😀

 

[colforbinMD]

I'm not sure I understand. Who would you sue if you accidently shot yourself or another member of your group with a gun you were carrying to shoot bears? The gun manufacturer? The forest service for letting you carry it? The government web site for encouraging it? As for the government condoning people carrying weapons I think they've been doing that ever since they put that amendment in the constitution. 😀

I believe here in America the correct answer would be to sue all of the above.

 

[11-44]

I'm not sure I understand. Who would you sue if you accidently shot yourself or another member of your group with a gun you were carrying to shoot bears? The gun manufacturer? The forest service for letting you carry it? The government web site for encouraging it? As for the government condoning people carrying weapons I think they've been doing that ever since they put that amendment in the constitution. 😀

Do you honestly believe that the author's supervisor or legal oversight would authorize the suggestion to carry and utilize lethal force in a national park or forest on a government website? Plainly, you need to step out more.

Are you referring to the 2nd amendment? Yes, bearing arms is mentioned there. And? Seems whatever political proclivities you have, the assumption that this means unfettered private possession of firearms is slowly being eroded.

In the distant future, I feel you will be very lucky (and simultaneously ostracized as barbaric) to afford and possess a permit for even a blackpowder rifle.

 

[Willamette]

Do you honestly believe that the author's supervisor or legal oversight would authorize the suggestion to carry and utilize lethal force in a national park or forest on a government website? Plainly, you need to step out more.

Are you referring to the 2nd amendment? Yes, bearing arms is mentioned there. And? Seems whatever political proclivities you have, the assumption that this means unfettered private possession of firearms is slowly being eroded.

In the distant future, I feel you will be very lucky (and simultaneously ostracized as barbaric) to afford and possess a permit for even a blackpowder rifle.

Why am I not surprised that your location says Bay Area? 🙄


Willamette

 

[lonestar911]

In the distant future, I feel you will be very lucky (and simultaneously ostracized as barbaric) to afford and possess a permit for even a blackpowder rifle.

Dude.....


Ahhh....what was the original question?

 

[colforbinMD]

Dude.....


Ahhh....what was the original question?

Who has the bigger penis?

 

[11-44]

Why am I not surprised that your location says Bay Area? 🙄


Willamette

So, you read what I wrote? Huh, doesn't really seem that way.

It never ceases to amaze me how little people understand what they read.

Oh well. I suppose that's what razor wire is designed to contain.

 

[corpsmanUP]

So, you read what I wrote? Huh, doesn't really seem that way.

It never ceases to amaze me how little people understand what they read.

Oh well. I suppose that's what razor wire is designed to contain.

11-44

You are clearly out of your element on the EM forum. Most all of us know each other very well here and know how to joke with each other without offending one another. You on the other hand have come into our house with a degree of "know-how" and "finesse" I can only describe as arrogant. It normally works for most of us to take the time to get to know each other and then slowly start jacking each other's chains. You can feel free to strike back at me with words, but you would be advised to back off and check your mouth at the door. I know this might sound a bit off course, but perhaps you are looking into the wrong field of medicine if you can't get along with people here. This is about the most laid back group of people on SDN. Were you trying to find the medicine or surgery threads?

 

[11-44]

Well fine. I take the bait.

Arrogance, some admittedly yes. Out of the element, no. The fan mail nor the club newsletter are of interest to me. I am speaking my mind without couching terms. This is an advantage of anonymity, I suppose.

Rounding around the flag is good, but I am sure you noticed that I referenced only and responded only to Willamette's snipe (I happen to heavily support private firearm ownership).

I'm not sure why it is necessary to take the charge. Jerks like me weave in and out of these forums all the time.

Your exclusive pettiness also distresses me. Despite our brewing little bear tiff, I posted defenses of the respondents in your cash forum. Context baby, context...

Lastly, to keep my arrogance in check I know there are far better doctors, medical students, and applicants in these forums than I am or will ever be. Just as I 'dropped' in on the party though, I simply will not curb my opinions.

 

[colforbinMD]

Anyone see Sin City (or read the novels) ?
The verbosity of 11-44's posts reminds me of the two loquacious goons in it.
Cracks me up.

 

[11-44]

Too verbose. Too often.

 

[FoughtFyr]

hee-hee!

👍

- H

 

[ERMudPhud]

Do you honestly believe that the author's supervisor or legal oversight would authorize the suggestion to carry and utilize lethal force in a national park or forest on a government website? Plainly, you need to step out more.

Are you referring to the 2nd amendment? Yes, bearing arms is mentioned there. And? Seems whatever political proclivities you have, the assumption that this means unfettered private possession of firearms is slowly being eroded.

In the distant future, I feel you will be very lucky (and simultaneously ostracized as barbaric) to afford and possess a permit for even a blackpowder rifle.

Jeez, who left the tool shed unlocked so this one could get out.

1. I posted the web site because so far the discussion about guns vs spray was heavy on opinion and low (actually zero) in terms of hard data. Plus as someone who has carried a fire extinquisher size can of bear mace all over south east Alaska I was wondering if there was any evidence out there or if I was just wasting my time. If you read the site carefully and use what you might have learned in med school about evidence based medicine its rather informative. There are actually two sets of data on pepper spray the first from Canada and the second from Alaska but both show about a 90% effectiveness. Both sets of data are essentially what we would call a case series and therefore class 4 evidence, not real good but if thats all you've got that's all you've got. Plenty of what we do in medicine is based on less. Next you have the firearm data. This isn't presented as a case series but rather as raw numbers of injured and not injured people in bear encounters broken down into those packing heat and hippies like me. This was apparently pulled from an Alaskan database on bear/human encounters. From this we can actually construct a case control series of cases(injured) and controls(not injured) and then compare the frequency of gun nuts and hippies within those two groups. From this we get 48% hippies in the controls (not injured) and 55% hippies in the cases (injured). From this we can also calculate a relative risk of being injured in a bear attack as a hippie of 1.2. The p value for this data by chi-squared is 0.4 so not significant. This is class 3 evidence and thus better than class 4 but still not ideal. Case control studies have a huge potential for bias plus the numbers in this particular data set are suspiciously round(an even 100 not injured and 400 injured). The gold standard would be a randomized 3 arm trial of hikers assigned to go into the woods outfitted either as hippies, spicy hippies (pepper spray),or gun nuts and then count how many come back. Want to volunteer? It would be a randomized trial so no guarantees you get to take your gun.

2. The federal and state governments already authorize or suggest that people carry and utilize "lethal force" within the national forests via something called "hunting season." I "step out" plenty although I generally go to national parks rather than forests during hunting season so some idiot doesn't mistake a big tall guy carrying a big purple pack as an elk.

3. Of course I meant the second amendment 🙄

 

[tkim]

The gold standard would be a randomized 3 arm trial of hikers assigned to go into the woods outfitted either as hippies, spicy hippies (pepper spray),or gun nuts and then count how many come back. Want to volunteer? It would be a randomized trial so no guarantees you get to take your gun.

If I could be any snack food presentation I would be a bowl of nuts with a side of peppers.

 

[ERMudPhud]

Do you honestly believe that the author's supervisor or legal oversight would authorize the suggestion to carry and utilize lethal force in a national park or forest on a government website? Plainly, you need to step out more.

It appears they have absolutely no problem with that suggestion

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/safety/safeconduct.htm

scroll to the bottom of the page

 

[ERMudPhud]

If I could be any snack food presentation I would be a bowl of nuts with a side of peppers.

 

[tkim]

It appears they have absolutely no problem with that suggestion

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/safety/safeconduct.htm

scroll to the bottom of the page

Wow, a pump-action full of deer slugs. No bueno.

 

[11-44]

Still, based on my intitial perspective- I stand corrected. I did not thoroughly read all the links.

 

[corpsmanUP]

Still, based on my intitial perspective- I stand corrected. I did not thoroughly read all the links.

There is a God!!! You are coming around now 😉

 

[flighterdoc]

It appears they have absolutely no problem with that suggestion

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/safety/safeconduct.htm

scroll to the bottom of the page

The NPS prohibits carrying of firearms of any sort within National Parks, the USGS notwithstanding.

And a 90% rate of effectiveness for pepper spray means there's a 10% failure rate. Since failure to deter a bear attack implies at best a serious injury, I don;t accept that as a viable alternative. If there was a 10% chance of being electrocuted every time you turned on a room light, would you turn any on?

 

[Willamette]

So, you read what I wrote? Huh, doesn't really seem that way.

It never ceases to amaze me how little people understand what they read.

Oh well. I suppose that's what razor wire is designed to contain.

Are you telling me that you didn't read anything INTO what I said? Just what was it that you took issue with? The Bay part? The Area? Oh I know, it must have been the " 🙄 " part. My what telegraphic body language I must have.

Anyone (un)fortunate enough to know me knows that understanding what I read is definitely NOT one of my problem areas. Before maligning someone for seemingly going off "half cocked," make sure your own safety's on.

Furthermore, and I'm not sure about this but, I'm beginning to think that you just might be a real pr!ck...


Willamette

 

[Willamette]

😛

 

[11-44]

Furthermore, and I'm not sure about this but, I'm beginning to think that you just might be a real pr!ck...


Willamette

Both succinct and classy ol' chap.

 

[Arctic Char]

Yeah, works fine on pit bulls - try it on a 800lb pissed off brown bear.

tkim - yes, i have been charged. the spray works like gangbusters, in my experience. it was very shocking because i was really familiar with the bears in the area, and they were usually very timid. i must have peed in the wrong bush

as far the pitbull story - man, forgive me, but i laughed hysterically at that story!! i can't believe you sprayed some puppy-yuppie!! thats awesome! the big, high power bear spray is different though. even the small, one handers. higher concentration of irritants, and the stream can extend up to 45 feet, obviously dispersing proportionally to the distance. there is no risk of missing, unless you spray yourself first and blind yourself

 

[Willamette]

Both succinct and classy ol' chap.

Nuts. I was just going for classy 😉 .


Willamette

 

[Jeff698]

Why? It's doing wonders for our numbers on the thread and who doesn't love a good peeing contest?

Yeah, and it just gave birth to a cool new phrase: 'self-endment'.

I like.

Take care and keep up the friendly fire.

Jeff

 

[11-44]

Yeah, and it just gave birth to a cool new phrase: 'self-endment'.

I like.

Take care and keep up the friendly fire.

Jeff

Gracias Senior!