quitting MD program

if you have a better alternative. also depends what specialty you are interested in. If it's medicine and you don't want to work 11h/d then forget it. If it's psychiatry, you could suffer through med school and internship and then the hours get better.

 

Yeah, I feel that same way sometimes. I just finished second year too. I'd say don't make any rash decisions until you take your boards and get scores back.

With this in mind, always keep the lifestyle, competitive specialties in mind for motivation. As already mentioned, consider psych if you like it and/or your board scores are sub-par (no disrespect to psych).

It's also a hard decision for me because i'm MD/PhD. I know that at least I'll be getting paid while on the wards.

 

First, while the hours can be crazy and some of your supervisers will be erratic/obnoxious/arrogant or even verbally abusive during third year, it tends to be something everybody survives. Working 13 hour days sounds rough, pulling an overnight sounds rough, but once you do a few of each and realize you won't break, or die, or go insane, you push on through and it goes by really fast. And about half the time you may realize you are actually having fun doing a lot of things that nobody else in other careers ever gets to do and seeing a lot of things nobody else gets to see.

So I wouldn't quit for the sole reasons that 3rd year is going to be hard and that you can afford to quit. The question should be, what is your goal? If you want to be a doctor, and think you would enjoy that job function for the next 40 years, then don't quit -- very few people don't get through 3rd year and your body is able to adapt to a lower sleep threshold far better than you think. If, however, you never really were that excited about medicine, then I suppose this is as good an exit point as any. Bear in mind that 3rd year is usually a joke compared to your first year of residency.

 

1) If you haven't realized by now that medical students love to:
a) Complain and
b) exaggerate when they complain
then you haven't been paying attention.

2) I'd also refrain from using SDN as your source for how "bad" 3rd year is. I'm pretty frequently shocked about some of the things people say happens to them on here, as for the most part, my 3rd year has been nothing of the sort. Again, see item #1 and throw in the anonymity of the internet, and you have a recipe for even greater misrepresentation.

3) All that said, it's a change working 11-14 hour days in situations where you have little control over your schedule. But look at how much time you spent in class and studying during the first two years, and it's probably not that much different. Is it harder? Depends on you - I personally HATE having to sit there and look through textbooks and lecture notes and memorize inane details that don't matter. Third year, has been an absolute dream. Even on rotations I dislike (psych) I'd prefer doing that in a heartbeat over having to be an M1 or M2.

4) Yes there can be attendings and residents who are jerks, but if they're like that to everyone, what can you be upset about? Obviously it's a flaw in their personality, not yours. Come to work on time, do what's expected of you, be pleasant, put some effort and thought into what you're doing, and that's all that you can do. It's not some secret formula.

5) If you really want to quit, then yeah, now's probably a good point to jump off the train (and I'd do it before boards - no use wasting time and money).

 

You should sit down and have a real conversation with yourself. A lot of people feel completely energized by clinical rotations. If it's the bookwork that you're sick of, then maybe things will get better for you. But, if it's medicine itself and you think there might be something else that you would like better, then you might want to cut your losses now.

For me, things got much worse in third year. I enjoyed the first 2 years of school. But,there have been so many times during third year that I would have quit if I didn't have $100,000 in debt. That is the main thing keeping me in medical school right now. I can't think of anything else that I would enjoy doing that would pay off that debt. In the end, I know I will enjoy medicine. I'm just really burnt out and am not enjoying the process at all.

 

You have to be joking? You are willing to quit after 2 years hard work and killing yourself to get in just because you get the IMPRESSION that it will be dehumanizing and crappy? You don't even know for sure and you're willing to give it all up just because of what other people say. Does that make sense to you?

Besides, let us say that it is dehumanizing and crappy. I can't imagine that the past 2 years have been enlightening and life-altering so it's not a major step down. Yes the days are longer for parts of it and the personalities of some people will be a chore but it's pretty much the same everywhere. I can't tell you if it will be worth it, that depends on you but I have a question (thanks mom) : If everybody on SDN was jumping off a bridge, would you?

 

You've got to realize that by and large, people only write on here about the few truly terrible things that happen to them during MS3. Overall it's not as horrible as it would sound by reading posts here b/c the posts are nearly 100% horror stories. Will you have a few of your own horror stories about MS3 mistreatment? You probably will, but it's not like every day is just awful. You will have to come to the realization eventually that some people are just a$$holes and it isn't you it's them. The process of skin thickening is painful but the majority of residents/attendings are decent and not malicious for no reason (except on OB/Gyn). Most rotations really are not that bad. As to the schedule, it sucks but you will adjust to it, and not all rotations have a hard schedule. Hell, I'm on my specialty surgery month right now and work about 60 hrs/week with no call no weekends. So it's definitely doable. I almost quit MS3 because of OB/Gyn which was my first rotation and was terrible, but all of MS3 has been much better than OB/Gyn, and even that rotation is not terrible at every school. So at least try out MS3 before you quit. It's usually not terrible and there were actually 4 or 5 months that I truly enjoyed, was excited about coming to work, etc. I was really scared of MS3 but with the exception of OB/Gyn it hasn't been near as bad as I was expecting.

 

Are you kidding?

Third year is when the suffering of first and second year finally becomes worth it!

 

If you're really concerned about 3rd year, see if your school has any resources for psychotherapy. Supportive therapy honestly wouldn't be that bad an idea if you're someone that will find 3rd year in particular to be emotionally taxing for some reason. If you're just concerned about the physical toll that working 12+ hour days will have on you, then you have to realize that some rotations are demanding and others aren't. Some you'll burn out on and some you'll get energized by. It's not going to be the same the entire year, and that's part of the difficulty and part of the uniqueness of 3rd year.

 

This is what is keeping me motivated during these first 2 years...I cannot stand sitting on my arse 16-18 hours a day reading inane crap or sitting in a lecture hall. I'm ready to DO something.

 

Agreed.

The best way I can describe it is that the MS-III year is better than the MS-I and MS-II years...but it's much more painful.

Better, but more painful.

 

I echo everyone else that has said you have to look deep within yourselves. I believe we ALL go through a stage of wondering "why did I EVER sign up for this???!!!" Some people discover soon enough "this isn't for me and I'd be just as happy or happier somewhere else" and if that's you, don't hesitate to pursue what you need to be doing. Some people discover "I don't think this is what I wanted after all, but it's too late to change"- usually because of the debt. I think this is the saddest part, because I believe a lot of the doctors who earned the MD only because they couldn't quit end up being less-than-excellent doctors because their hearts not really in it and the patient suffers. Getting into med school is hard b/c you don't want to get into debt and then realize it's not for you, but obviously "hard" isn't the way to prevent this situation. Wish I had a good solution. Then there are those of us who eventually say "Wow, despite all the things I complain about and all the times I say I'm miserable, there's nothing else I'd rather be doing, I can't imagine doing anything else." If you find that sentiment within you, then the strenuous nature of training no longer seems tortuous, it all seems worth it. So all I can say is take some time reflecting on what you thought of the first 2 years, why you went to med school in the first place, and try to discern if you could feel satisfied doing something else, or if you'll always feel empty b/c you didn't finish, if you're the one who'll say "wow, it IS all worth it!" It's an important decision to make b/c I know far too many dr's who didn't ever feel it was worth it, and they invested so much it feels like changing courses isn't an option.

 

OP I've thought about quitting at many points during med school (having just finished year 2 like you). For me the problem is I don't have readily available career alternatives. There are many other careers I'm interested in, but I don't have credentials or connections to start quickly in them. I would have to start pretty low and work my way up, by which time I would be done with med school anyway and with an MD to boot, whether I use it or not (which I'm not sure I will, or at least not for clinical/practicing purposes).

I'm not expecting to enjoy years 3 and 4. Must we though? Did you take Step 1 yet? One thing I considered is completing it and then taking a leave of absence. If you leave without taking Step 1 it will be difficult to return to medicine if you for any reason choose to. If you take Step 1, even if you do poorly you should still be able to return to your institution or another (probably worse) one.

So I am expecting to trudge through the second half of school. OP a lot of people on SDN are gunnerific so you should be mindful of getting a skewed perception. There is a definite selection bias. OP I don't think motives for being in medicine or any of that matter at this point as you're already about 75% of the way to your MD. I think what matters more is what you will be sacrificing over the next two years if you decide to finish. And I don't mean things like dignity or sleep, but more so what would you otherwise plan on doing during the 2 upcoming years.

 

???. Bear in mind that after med school there is going to be a minimum of 3 years of residency, which will be a lot harder time and responsibility-wise, than med school, so while you may be 75% of the way to an MD after third year (and OP has only finished 2d year BTW), you are still less than halfway though your training, and depending on the path you seek, maybe closer to a third or a quarter.

 

MD is a degree

 

my humble ass opinion is not ENOUGH doctors quit. Its a long road. Consider carefully whether you think you'll like it. These people who tell you to not quit and keep doing another year...well the hooks just get deeper debt-wise. Make your own decision, do it without fear, and be comfortable with it.

 

Right, and so after second year you are 50% of the way to a 4 year degree, not 75% .

But since OP is thinking about quitting due to the upcoming hurdles ("work hours and treatment"), I think taking into account the whole training is appropriate. So he is really about a quarter of the way through running this gauntlet.

 

Maybe the poster is weighing them unequally (i.e. giving no credit for the supposedly jokey MS4).

 

Then wouldn't that be 2/3rds done, or 67%?

 

Well I was accounting for the legwork that is required to get into med school in the first place, which is not insignificant. Nontrads may have a different perception of this. But as a traditional myself, I felt the latter half of my college experience if not the entire experience was geared toward eventually entering med school. There are a good number of prerequisites to get into med school--all of the usual items seen on successful applications (most of which I frankly would have never done if I had no intentions of applying to med school). And traveling all over the place for interviews. All of this is a sizeable up front investment even before med school begins, or at least I felt that way in my case.

So I feel I'm well over 50% of the way to an MD. In simple terms, each year would count for 25%, but that says nothing of the premed hurdles. Those were the implications I lumped into that 75%. I should have clarified all that on my previous post but I was in a rush or tired I think. I think it is misleading to say to someone post (status post?) Step 1 "you are now halfway to being an MD". And for someone who has been on the verge of quitting--like myself--I think it's helpful to look at only the meaningful checkpoints of the guantlet instead of the entire length. Just taking it one Step at a time--quite literally if we are talking about USMLE's. Quitting after 2nd year means everything prior has gone to waste. Quitting post graduation is different. Too much to get into right now, gotta run--but to some extent these are all rationalizations I've had to come up with to keep myself from leaving this path prematurely, in a move I would likely regret later.

OP--if you are still around even--check the following blog post referenced in the SDN newsletter which covers non-clinical/nontraditional careers as an MD:
http://studentdoctor.net/blog/2008/05/17/non-clinical-opportunities-for-phyisicians/#more-571

Incidentally, be wary of this: I hear it goes on record and can come back to bite you later on careerwise.

 

We disagree on this. After Step 1, you are halfway to the MD (but not halfway done with your training). The clinical years are the more time consuming and draining years of med school, despite no longer having Step 1 over your head. (Plus you still have to take the two parts of Step 2 before you graduate). And matching into a residency is going to be not that dissimilar to applying to med school in terms of traveling for interviews and the general stresses of "getting in" someplace good. This game never ends.

But I don't think any of this is a reason to drop out. Only drop out if you decide this isn't the career for you. That is the best reason to walk away, not the "it's too hard" stuff. Because as hard as it is, everybody who really wants it makes it through.

 

I think even if people feel this is not the career for them, if they are beyond step 1 they are better off making that decision after graduation when they at least have a diploma in hand vs nothing. Your premise is based on a student continuing on the standard route for physicians--interviewing for and entering a residency. That is a path followed by 99% of freshly minted MDs but there is the 1% remainder that is floating out there doing other things. And regardless of what they are doing they are probably better off doing it as MDs than as 2nd year dropouts. I don't see this as terribly different from quitting halfway through college vs continuing to graduation and making the important decisions at that point. And after Step 1 people are definitely over halfway to a Medical Doctorate, whatever comes after that be damned.

OP or anyone else, view pertinent posts on medschoolhell.com that cover this topic.

 

Sorry to interject my premed-ness inexperience, but I truly 2nd the non-clinical aspect of medicine if practicing does not seem for you. Get your MD and look into pursuing a MPH (I completed mine at Emory in Health Policy and Management). With a MD alone you have many other opportunities that will open for you (non-clinically speaking).

 

I agree that there is probably some value to having an MD, but it is not the same as finishing college. A college degree is extremely marketable with no further training. An MD degree without having practiced is of far more limited marketability. Most advisors tell folks who arent planning to use their MD to at least do a year of residency and get licensed, as this (1) adds significantly to your marketability and (2) keeps the door open should you choose to go back and practice medicine after all.

 

It depends on the school if it goes on record I would guess, but it is medical care and is a matter of some privacy. The details should be confidential even from the school itself. Further, taking it as a pre-emptive action before running into trouble would be a good idea because 1. you don't get into trouble in the first place, and 2. shows good judgment and insight in taking care of urself and 3. It may help you function at a higher level and improve grades and evals.

And if you're going into psych, you'd have a therapist anyway at some point lol.

But yeah, if it's not going to be the emotional stress that the OP's worried aobut, then this isn't worth his time at all.

 

Everyone contemplates quitting at some point in every career. Some people might cite the debt, but I highly doubt that is always the true reason. People have bad days. I once had a doc tell me that he contemplated quitting every day for at least a couple of seconds. Then he realized there is nothing else he would want to do in the world and move on. If you are one of those "Man, I should've worked at my dad's car dealership" or other opportunity kind of people...well, go work there, but only if you are certain you'll hate the remainder of your life as a physician. Those kind of gigs are better to try out before entering med school, but it is a bit late now. Nobody can tell you how you'll feel if you quit or if you stay, but we do have our own feelings to go by. I hate the feeling of being a quitter. Something like an MD is a long run and if you don't contemplate quitting at least once then you're full of crap. Suck it up. If you have that little debt already then an extra year shouldn't hurt too much and you get to guage for yourself. I hate it when people quit because it is hard. If you are going to quit then do it because it is something you will be miserable with.

 

I wouldn't discount this as a reason. After two years of med school you can in some cases be approaching 6 digits in debt. If you combine that with some debt already accumulated in college, that can be pretty crippling unless you go into a field where wages are high enough to service that kind of debt. Which means you can't just go into a job that will make you happy, you have to find a job that pays high bills too. And since you are already going to have to choose a career based on factors other than happiness once you get this far down the road, a lot of people just stay on the medicine path. The other related reason is that people who go into medicine all too often were premed science majors with limited marketed skills. It's hard to get a decent job as a bio major with dropping out of med school as the only thing on your resume. (A good argument for majoring in something more pragmatic). So you are stuck for this reason as well.

 

The experience of most people is that sitting in class for two years is pretty "dehumanizing" and that third year was so much better because they were actually doing what they came to medical school to learn to do. Certainly the hours are long but they tend to "fly by" because most people enjoy the practice of medicine and enjoy the learning during third year.

Yes, there are going to be rotations and situations that you will not enjoy as much as others but in my experience, the worst day that I spent on any rotation was better than sitting in a classroom. Still, if you dread the thought of actually moving into the clinical aspect of medical school, you won't enjoy the practice of medicine very much outside of those specialties that do not have much patient contact such as pathology (not transfusion medicine).

I would advise you to discuss your plans and options with your Dean of Students before you quit. Sometimes taking a year off to do something like pursue a Masters of Public Health, might be just what you need to get the perspective to come back and complete your studies. If not, you would have the MPH (or any other degree that you could do in a year) and you could move on to the next aspect of your life. Just be aware that most schools require that you complete your MD degree within 6 years of starting.

Good luck!

 

I second the advice given by njbmd.

The first two years of medical school were not experiences I would ever choose to repeat. The third year of medical school was vastly superior and why I chose to go to medical school in the first place. I actually had fun on the wards and felt like I could make a difference in my patient's life. I (and some of my classmates) caught things that might just have saved our patient's lives.

What is it really that the OP is concerned about? The hours? Being on the bottom rung of the profession for a few years? Why did the OP apply to medical school in the first place? The prestige? The money? or the ability to help others? If the latter, then you will feel the reward finally in third year.

Every profession makes you start at the bottom and requires long work hours. Perhaps it is my experience as a non-trad but alot of students seem to want to skip right from student to attending and life does not work that way. It is good that the level of responsibility works step-wise fashion. If you want to treat the patient as you own, I say go for it (I did) but it is nice to have back up if you are wrong.

There is also camaraderie in working the long hours even though we whine and complain about it. That is part of the process and makes you appreciate what you get later on.

Keep in mind that nothing is that bad and it does not last forever even when you have an experience or a resident/attending that is difficult. Most of medical school and indeed life is a matter of perspective and how you view the world. You can choose to view the cup as half empty or half full. The choice is yours.

 

I agree with the above excellent advice. The MS-III year reminds you of why you went to med school in the first place - you'll finally be doing something that you can get excited and passionate about! I mean, the hours are tough and the work is so different from the classroom-based curricula of the first two years, but for me it was so much more meaningful and relevant.

 

I remember reading SDN when I was a first and second year and being terrified of clinical years. Now that I am three weeks away from the end, I can share my personal experience. I have been very humanely treated in all of my rotations, with the exception of surgery. That rotation has met every stereotype I have read on this message board, and worse. That said, I don't think that every program is that way. Ours just happens to be a malignant one.

 

Oho, now you've done it. Now you've gone and invoked the wrath of the surgery gods. Tired and SLUser are now going to hijack this thread and turn it into a 200-post argument about whether or not surgery rotations do treat or should treat med students poorly, all the while insulting each other's manhood with ever-increasing virulence.

This discussion will cause the OP to finally decide to withdraw from med school out of fear of surgeons, and as a result he will not discover Jesusillin (which cures every disease known to man, and many we haven't discovered yet, including Martian SuperAIDS) as he otherwise would have. The world will eventually be destroyed by a mutant strain of Martian SuperAIDS, and it's all your fault for provoking the vengeful surgery gods.

I hope you feel better now.

 

Tired doesn't scare me. He's even mentioned sending students home early! love Actually, I would be happy to work with most of the surgery residents on this board. They seem a lot nicer than the ones I work with.

 

.

 

Yeah we're a rare bunch.

 

You can't trust Blade on this one...he's in the lab right now, so who knows what evil transformation he might undergo once he's done a few more months of trauma?

And Ypo has definitely initiated a chain of events which will result in the Apocalypse. By provoking the surgery gods, Ypo has ripped a hole in the space-time continuum and killed George McFly, leaving Doc and Marty trapped in the alternate 1985 with all the scary lightning where Biff lives in a casino and stuff.

 

I say quit!!

Less competition for me.

Lazy and overly-sensitive people should not be doctors anyway.

 

Whether or not it's really worth it would be a personal decision. You worked hard to get into medical school and hard to get through the first two years. Do you want to throw all that hard work away?

I finished my first week of surgery and I am happy to say that I have been treated VERY well by all of the attendings, residents, and most of the scrub technicians. I'm hoping that the next three weeks go well too. I really can't say that I've been treated badly by anyone thus far in any of my rotations. A few of the attendings I've worked with don't seem to be the nicest people in the world, but they weren't cruel or anything. When I've been with an attending who didn't want to teach, I have sought out other doctors /PAs, NPs in the office during my outpatient rotations.

It might sound corny, but I think that part of surviving rotations in areas that you aren't interestred in has a lot to do with your attitude. I've found that if I can find something to like about a rotation, it really makes it much better, at least it does for me.

Maybe you could do one semester of rotations and see if perhaps it's not as bad as you think it will be? Maybe that will at least give you a better idea of how rotations are instead of just reading about the experiences others have had. Good luck with your decision.

 

Hey! I've been nice for at least the past three years (since I started residency), not just the last year while I was in the lab!

 

Not to come down to hard on the OP, but these threads are getting a little bit wearing.

Everyone told you becoming/being a physician was going to be hard as hell. I am 99% sure that at some point in your pre-med career a physician even warned you that it "wasn't worth it" but in your boundless enthusiasm and optomism you KNEW that it was and that you would never become jaded.

Now with surprising regularity you or someone like you gets on SDN and posts some variation on the theme of "it turns out that medicine is really hard, full of difficult personalities, and it looks like I *gasp* might even have to make some personal sacrifices to succeed!"

It's ok to vent, everyone does this and it is healthy. But for the benefit of the pre-meds reading this forum can I just reiterate that it's effing tough. Imagine how tough you think it's going to be and go half again more than that. You don't want to be the guy/girl who tells themself that they can get through anything and have it turn out that you were lying to yourself. Your life is going to be harder than those of your friends who went into engineering, nursing, pharmacy, business, advertising, marketing, or real estate.

Get over it.

 

Amen.

 

Eh, whatever. The parts of third year that are hard are not hard because they need to be hard for the most part, they're hard because nobody gives a flying crap about whether third years lives suck.

I have adopted the high school approach of deciding whether any given activity has value or is simply there to waste my time because they can (woohoo, mandatory 6pm presentation by fellows on their obscure basic science work!). If the latter... yeah, sorry. I'm there to do my work (to the extent I am allowed) and then get the hell out. If that requires running down 8 flights of steps to escape without anybody noticing, that's cool.

There was a reason I busted my ass for step 1, and it was so I could not care whether I sucked up enough for honors or pass.

 

Are you really surprised though?

Ever go onto pre-allo and try to openly discuss the negative stuff about medicine and medical training?

You get inundated with posts from MS1s and pre-meds who claim that "it's not THAT bad!" and "Stop being so negative - why are you trying to scare people away from medicine??" Some of these posts are so jammed with artificial sunshine and happiness that it's kind of nauseating.

What most people in pre-allo NEED to hear is "Honestly, there is a spectrum of people in medicine. Some are incredibly happy and love everything about their job. Some are incredibly UNhappy and regret every decision that ever led them to medical school. Until you get here and start med school, you will not know where in the spectrum you will be."

But, of course, what most people in pre-allo WANT to hear is "OF COURSE you'll love medicine, and be happy! Yeah, it'll be hard, but it'll still all be worth it in the end!!!" And then they try to drown out anyone who tries to tell them to the contrary.

 

Check out the thread where Law2Doc is getting pilloried for suggesting that a quadraplegic applicant may have difficulty completing the manual requirements of traditional medical education.

He's not trashing the kid. He's not telling him he won't be able to do it. He's just saying that many of the clinical requirements at most schools would be daunting to an applicant without full use of his/her arms and legs.

He, apparently, is being ridiculously negative.

That pretty much sums up the forum for me.

 

Not only do they not respond to open discussion about medicine, doing so only seems to fuel their irrational optimism and unbridled enthusiasm.

...granted that's a worst-case scenario. The destruction could be limited to our own Galaxy.

I thought most medical schools had waivers on their web pages or applications stating that you had to be able to perform minimal physical requirements to be allowed to enter medical school...?

 

He's just mean.

 

Ouch. Hope you are joking. I don't have a problem with that poster and I hope he gets what he wants. But I think it's naive to say "I can do the classroom part of the first two years of med school and I can do the cerebral parts of a specialty residency once I get past the intern year, so schools should effectively eliminate everything in between that involve things I can't do". Most of what he's trying to omit is the stuff that makes folks into doctors IMHO.

 

My 10,000 other posts should indicate that I like the use of sarcasm and have no trouble with making fun of the sunshine-out-the-arse pre-allo types who tell someone with a 1.3 and a 14J that they should "never give up hope" and "don't let anyone take your dream from you!"


I think you and Amory have been right on the money for the most part.

 

And I hope you realize that this a breach of privacy and you could sue the school and the psychologist/psychiatrist.