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I don't need to run a trial to show you that the DVHs of a 45 Gy plan will be better than the DVHs of a 70 Gy plan, do I?

No of course not but this is a totally different factor than what we are discussing.

For the record, I like short treatment courses for small cell. I just don’t think I can confidently tell a patient it offers better OS or better cure rates and think that’s supported by the current data.

Long course Daily treatment has not proven to be better. That doesn’t mean we know that BID cures more people. Leap.
 
Long course Daily treatment has not proven to be better. That doesn’t mean we know that BID cures more people. Leap.
It would be cruel to bring patients in twice a day if you didn't have evidence that it was better than once a day. "Leap" here is not a leap, it's fake news. (There's always fake news surrounding twice a day in SCLC.)

People have to intellectually contort themselves so as not to admit the fact that twice a day radiotherapy in small cell lung cancer has proven itself better than once a day. (Again I think it comes from twice a day counter-programming in residency.) If you're saying it's not proven to be better as in "Can anything really ever be proven?"... OK. I'll grant you that. But are there two randomized trials showing twice a day is survival-improving better? Yes. (Will you need three?) And how many showing that once a day is better than twice a day?
 
Okay, I think we have gotten to the point of the discussion where you are being intentionally obtuse. I made the points. Others reading can make their own interpretations.
 
People have to intellectually contort themselves so as not to admit the fact that twice a day radiotherapy in small cell lung cancer has proven itself better than once a day. (Again I think it comes from twice a day counter-programming in residency.) If you're saying it's not proven to be better as in "Can anything really ever be proven?"... OK. I'll grant you that. But are there two randomized trials showing twice a day is survival-improving better? Yes. (Will you need three?) And how many showing that once a day is better than twice a day?
Still never understood if 45/25 was actually considered an appropriate treatment regimen back then. Guess it was, but just seems odd.
 
Still never understood if 45/25 was actually considered an appropriate treatment regimen back then. Guess it was, but just seems odd.
45/25 was oft gainsaid. People were quite sure 70/35 would be better. Keep hope alive and so forth. Almost a quarter century later to quote the @jondunn's: it's a "leap" to think 45/30 (a LOT less dose, and less fractions, than 70/35) is better.

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I don't need to run a trial to show you that the OAR DVHs of a 45 Gy plan will be better than the OAR DVHs of a 70 Gy plan, do I?

ALARA.
I agree with this premise. There have been some patients that I have explicitly told I can only treat them BID as it was apparent I could only achieve constraints for that regimen.

However I also do not see significantly worse esophagitis and pneumonitis in CONVERT and RTOG for dose escalated Qday, despite the ALARA point.

Also, of the two studies with "appropriate" dose escalation for Qday regimens vs 45 BID, one showed numerically better median survival for Qday and another for BID (yeah I know neither met endpoint). I'm not a nonbeliever or believer, I'm a realist using the tools at my disposal to care for patients. Maybe I'm too much of an empath, but I just don't see enough to fully twist a patients arm if I think they are somewhat close.

Me: This is a cancer that's a little bit unusual in that we give radiation two times a day 6 hours apart.
Patient: I don't want to come in two times a day. Do I have to?
Me: No. We can treat once a day. But twice a day probably offers better survival and cure rates.
Patient: OK.

I'm dead serious here but some of my patients will straight up say they want the once daily when given this, no BS. Typically the ones who can barely afford to get to clinic and live an hour plus away.
 
How can you be underpowered for PFS, when it is a more commonly occurring event than seen with OS? That doesn’t make sense.

Am I incorrect in my understanding?

I will give you that this is a fair criticism, as is @radmonckey 's analysis of differences between the groups driving the OS benefit. I agree, that it is not the cleanest, most slam dunk trial that checks off all the boxes in our brain of --> RT helps LC, thus RT should help PFS, and if that PFS difference is significant enough, then OS will benefit.

Perhaps all of this can be explained by small difference sin baseline characteristics, that on their own are not SS, but combined have a hidden 'protoplasm' score that is worse in the group getting 45/30.

I will not pretend to now statistics well enough to come up with statistical alternatives as to why PFS was not SS improved, but OS was. The mechanism of why that happened would be conjecture. Below is a potential example:

The distant met rate progression is the same (so PFS is the same) but the local disease is completely eradicated at a higher rate (which would not be captured with either 'response rate' or 'PFS' variables) with the higher local RT dose, with less of a probabilityin terms of seeding future metastases (similar to treating the primary paradigm in STAMPEDE improving OS in M1 prostate cancer), thus the length of time from when patients developed mets to when they died was longer, because the time it took for small volume metastatic disease, on its own, to kill a patient is less than if the same small volume metastatic disease PLUS local recurrence seeding new mets. Perhaps patients in 45/30 had more late local recurrences leading to patient death directly to the effects of long-term local recurrence.
 
I'm dead serious here but some of my patients will straight up say they want the once daily when given this, no BS. Typically the ones who can barely afford to get to clinic and live an hour plus away.
Very true. And then...

"You go to war with the army you have. Not the army you want."
- Don Rumsfeld
 
Not to be devil's advocate but what's stopping some PDs from delaying graduation for some residents that they deem unfit? I don't think increasing subjectivity is the answer, would opt for better objective measures.

As a counterpoint, alternative pathway folks who some are probably competent enough to be independently practicing with minimal additional training.
 
I agree...

Some PGY-3 gensurg residents do very well in the O.R.
Some PGY-5 gensurg residents are terrible.
It is more than that, not just surg skills, it is maturity, experience, wisdom.
Too complicated to reduce gensurg to < 5 yrs.
Pt's life is at stake.
You are not talking about playing violin here, although playing violin is 100x harder than operating...

The idea of graduating based on skill (and not time) comes from the world of music.
FYI, Midori, the violinist, performed publicly at the age of 6, and at the age of 15 already became a professional violinist...

PS: At the age of 15, I was learning how to wipe my nose...


 
Competency based education will very rarely (if ever) be used to graduate residents early, especially surgical residents.

Academic programs cannot run without medicine & surgery residents handling the floors. That means the program needs X number of residents per year (otherwise the workload becomes more unbearable than it already is).

In the best case it will empower residents to ask staff to let them do more of X procedure or maybe chop off one or two useless months at the very end of residency.
 
Competency based education will very rarely (if ever) be used to graduate residents early, especially surgical residents.

Academic programs cannot run without medicine & surgery residents handling the floors. That means the program needs X number of residents per year (otherwise the workload becomes more unbearable than it already is).

In the best case it will empower residents to ask staff to let them do more of X procedure or maybe chop off one or two useless months at the very end of residency.
Not to be devil's advocate but what's stopping some PDs from delaying graduation for some residents that they deem unfit? I don't think increasing subjectivity is the answer, would opt for better objective measures.

As a counterpoint, alternative pathway folks who some are probably competent enough to be independently practicing with minimal additional training.
These are excellent points.

I guess the question I think we need to ask is: do we believe we have perfected our training? Obviously, this question can be directed at all of medicine. But for RadOnc, I would argue that the rules of our modern training pathway are over 20 years old (from when residency length officially became four years long). Sure, certain things have been tinkered with (written board exams used to be delivered over two consecutive days, for example) but it's fundamentally the same.

It goes without saying that a lot has changed over the last 20 years, and I think Radiation Oncology - a specialty so tied to technology - has changed more than most. Change for the sake of change is bad. But, if our goal is truly to produce excellent physicians, I think it is worth re-evaluating a system that was designed when Blockbuster asked us to rewind our VHS tapes before returning them. I think I'm being generous with my timeline estimate - I think the majority of our training pathway ideas predate even Blockbuster.

If competency-based education isn't possible because a hospital system can't survive without cheap resident labor, then perhaps it's worth questioning if that system is appropriate in the first place. If a resident has reached the end of a time-limited pathway and hasn't acquired the necessary skills for independent practice, shouldn't that resident be held back for the safety of patients?

However, maybe the system as it exists is the best we can do, and we shouldn't try to improve it. I just sometimes get the feeling that we're given an Oculus Quest VR headset and, when we ask how to use it, we're given a dusty instruction manual to the original Nintendo console and told "this was good enough for us, and it's good enough for you, too".
 
This was posted today and then deleted. Did Koong break the streak by posting this?!
 

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This was posted today and then deleted. Did Koong break the streak by posting this?!
Interesting, what does that even mean? I'm not aware of any sort of universal definition of a "Level 1" or "Level 2" safety event classification, is this an Anderson thing? Or am I out of the loop?
 
Not a Pollyanna.

But he was, once upon a time,* a Cassandra. Which for a moment made it seem like he had channeled Pandora.

Minerva save us. He is now 100% he/him/his.



* MODS: could be a sticky
“If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.”

― Marcus Aurelius

I mean, if the authors of that piece are going to bring Aurelius in, there's some other passages they could consider, too.
 
“If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.”

― Marcus Aurelius

I mean, if the authors of that piece are going to bring Aurelius in, there's some other passages they could consider, too.

"When the overwhelming evidence is that an over supply and residency expansion issue is an existential threat to the specialty, it is OK to punt and cite phantom anti-trust concerns rather than taking a definitive stance. Michael Steinberg will still love you."

--- Not Marcus Aurelius
 
I was told immunotherapy can't cure people

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But what about Rife Machines?

1637804348868.png


(Side note to any non-medical lurkers stumbling upon this post in the future: please, do not, under any circumstances, attempt to treat your cancer at home with this device/remedy)
 
I mean there is a significant difference so it’s not comparable to hypofrac. And Med oncs sometimes do give single agent in elderly/frail folks, taking the less efficacious path in order to spare toxicity.

Also plenty of my Med onc colleagues have switched to every six week formulations for situates where that is now approved over every 2-3 weeks.
 
Dose de-escalation is certainly one of the less researched questions in oncology in every setting.
But let's be honest, there are good reasons for this:

1. Statistics. Proving superiority (=enhanching PFS/OS) by adding an agent is considerably easier than proving non-inferiority by de-escalating treatment in a randomized setting. It's also a lot easier to "sell" to the patients and of course to the pharma.

2. Fame. You gain more "fame" by enhancing PFS/OS than by producing the same PFS/OS with less treatment.
 
I mean there is a significant difference so it’s not comparable to hypofrac. And Med oncs sometimes do give single agent in elderly/frail folks, taking the less efficacious path in order to spare toxicity.

Also plenty of my Med onc colleagues have switched to every six week formulations for situates where that is now approved over every 2-3 weeks.
Not so much hypofrac as our overall approach to trial design and interpretation. I see a SS 7% difference in pfs in that tweet, which, coincidentally, is the reduction In efs you get when you omit rt in Hodgkin's...
 
Look for 5 fraction breast to be the "go to" in APM ZIP codes versus outside those ZIP codes in 2022. This one practice change alone will make CMS's "experiment" be positive (null hypothesis = APM won't save any money).
Totally. And as far as I can tell, Livi study allowed ER- patients (I may be wrong, but I thought so). So, it's always interesting to see people use that a reason to not do it. I am uncertain about data suggesting a distinct recurrence pattern (ER- more likely to recur further away from tumor bed).
 
Totally. And as far as I can tell, Livi study allowed ER- patients (I may be wrong, but I thought so). So, it's always interesting to see people use that a reason to not do it. I am uncertain about data suggesting a distinct recurrence pattern (ER- more likely to recur further away from tumor bed).
I think trialists in these studies would have been back-seat-driver/after-the-fact criticized if they didn't allow a lot of "high risk" stage I patients in their studies. They did allow them. And as best as I can recall even in post hoc looks the high risk stage ones didn't have discernibly different LRs. That said, breast shall forever and always be a rad onc practice with a lot of culture-drivenness versus data-drivenness (breast boost w/ hypofx is "yugely" culture driven). We all "sin" probably a little bit: accept the data we like, ignore the data we don't.
 
Totally. And as far as I can tell, Livi study allowed ER- patients (I may be wrong, but I thought so). So, it's always interesting to see people use that a reason to not do it. I am uncertain about data suggesting a distinct recurrence pattern (ER- more likely to recur further away from tumor bed).
The tnbc data suggests it isn't the same entity as ER+ breast ca



 
Totally. And as far as I can tell, Livi study allowed ER- patients (I may be wrong, but I thought so). So, it's always interesting to see people use that a reason to not do it. I am uncertain about data suggesting a distinct recurrence pattern (ER- more likely to recur further away from tumor bed).
I would guess stage I triple negative pts who got chemo have lower local recurrence rates than er+
 
The tnbc data suggests it isn't the same entity as ER+ breast ca



I really try not to think about it too much TBH. I *really* try not to think about it in pCR cases after chemo. Perhaps one day we may learn how to make our X-rays selectively target a particular portion of the DNA molecule(s) of interest in TNBC.

"Subgroup analyses comparing IBTR in 26 Gy versus 40 Gy show no evidence of differential effect regarding age, grade, pathological tumour size, nodal status, tumour bed boost, adjuvant chemotherapy, HER2 status and triple negative status. The number of events in these analyses is small and results should be interpreted with caution. There was only 1 IBTR event post-mastectomy."
 
Livi trial required 5mm margins. Rare where I'm from but not a typical criteria for partial breast and I don't require it.

Look for 5 fraction breast to be the "go to" in APM ZIP codes versus outside those ZIP codes in 2022
I want to make sure that I understand this. The extra cost to a clinic from 16 vs 5 fractions is in three places as far as I can tell.

1. Nominal depreciation of machine
2. Staffing costs
3. Personal time costs for OTV

These all seem pretty nominal to me as a community doc with a service agreement with a hospital responsible for most staffing (unless of course we start getting pressures for streamlining due to decreased revenue).

Am I missing something?
 
Livi trial required 5mm margins. Rare where I'm from but not a typical criteria for partial breast and I don't require it.


I want to make sure that I understand this. The extra cost to a clinic from 16 vs 5 fractions is in three places as far as I can tell.

1. Nominal depreciation of machine
2. Staffing costs
3. Personal time costs for OTV

These all seem pretty nominal to me as a community doc with a service agreement with a hospital responsible for most staffing (unless of course we start getting pressures for streamlining due to decreased revenue).

Am I missing something?
If facility is getting a flat rate for a case, a Vmat 5 fraction plan requires less time for almost everyone - doctor, RTT, planner. There’s additional QA for physics, but with stuff like Mobius, it’s easy. In the same amount of time, you can now treat 3x the breast patients. How is this not a slam dunk for APM sites?
 
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