Radiology 2012 applicants

[2012mdc]

Lol. People with 274/276 and AJR first author publications. People with 35+ pubs/presentations doing aways at UCSF and networking. **** my life.

Haha.

0 pubs and low tier med school (w/ no rads department) **** mine as well

But to be serious I had a talk with PD today and he said I might get screened at some programs but he said as long as I had other achievements it would not happen at his program or many others.

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[drizzt3117]

yeah im just joking. more impressed than anything else. after three years of hard work it's easy to get complacent and assume smooth sailing ahead but there is undeniably a ton of talent out there. besides boards/grades and solid research, im banking on my ace in the hole being the fact that i came from what would be considered a "top" medical school. it doesn't really help for final ranking, but in terms of getting interviews i am told that it is immensely helpful in "breaking region," so much so that we are advised that away rotations are basically a waste of time and can only really hurt us (if we happen to make a bad impression, since you have to be on your A+ game all the time).

I think the reputation of your program matters a lot, but more so in the "who you know" and pipeline way rather than by name alone. I go to a top 25 school but one whose rads/med physics department is very well known, so that helps a lot, and has been really an amazing experience as I've been able to work with people who literally invented modern radiology. I think it's that type of experience working with people at top programs, be it home, or on away rotations that really helps. If you think about it, it makes sense, because unlike medicine, surgery, etc, medical students have little to no proficiency at radiology when they start as a pgy-2, so the opinions of people they know/trust is most impt.

As far as your other point, I would say that rads aways aren't very high pressure. Don't waste people's time, ask good qs, review things you'll probably be pimped on (mostly anatomy and basic rads) and perhaps pick up a case report, and you'll look like a superstar, the most important part is to be chill though.

 

[princess peach]

nothing like SDN to take the piss out of you. i thought i was balling out of control with 265<step1<270, publications, all honors and top 10 med school but 276/274 is truly insane. if princess peach is a girl as the name would suggest (big advantage in rads admissions), particularly an attractive one (sad, but this is how the world works), and goes to a reputable medical school, then she has this process completely locked up, game over, roll credits. my hats are off. still, i dropped my total rads programs to 38. i'm really hard pressed to go any lower but i'm tryin

HIGHlarious. thanks. i think you'll be fine too. why don't you just apply to 38 and then cancel the interviews? put off the decision making til later.

 

[UnderPar22]

35 pubs/presentations? Someone here went 270+ board scores??? Are you guys even human??? Seriously though, that's awesome.

 

[killinsound]

You guys are freaking monsters.

There go my chances at matching back in california.

 

[Radiculous]

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[drizzt3117]

..

 

[2012mdc]

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[DrBowtie]

I should have never started this thread

I'm starting to freak out. I'm done with this for now

Agree. Unsubscribed. Ya'll are too good. The future of radiology is in good hands.

 

[junkemail86]

After going through the match, I can share some insights:

1.) Step 1 is important, and step 2 is not. Also, there is a difference (and a large one at that) between >250, >260, and >270 on Step 1. It's silly to think otherwise.

2.) Manuscripts are helpful, but posters/oral presentations/grants get no respect. I had about 30 abstracts at prestigious conferences, but got asked about...zero. I also had grants and oral presentations, which were also neglected during interviews. But, I was frequently complimented on bringing so many projects to completion as published articles. Publications in the field is definitely key. I was consistently asked about my pubs in the field, but never about my basic science research (which was also in the field). No clinician wants to talk about a basic science paper they know nothing about during an interview.

3.) Med school reputation is important. Applying from a top 10 med school is a bonus, but anything below that is basically all the same. Top 50 or Top 25 doesn't really help you, but obviously won't hurt you compared to lower tier schools. I assume that this is because there aren't really that many allopathic med schools, so top 25/50 isn't really that impressive.

4.) Med school geography can be very restrictive. Northeast med students get
interviews all over the country. California med students get interviews all over the country. Southern med students get interviews in the South almost exclusively. Midwest med students get interviews in the Midwest almost exclusively. There are obvious exceptions to this rule, but usually it is due to a.) important family members in the field, b.) big wig letter writers, or less often c.) an applicant that excels in
every aspect of their application (scores, grades, research, letters).

5.) Home institution program reputation can help your application. Coming from a top 10 residency program can help your application tremendulously. Below that, you don't get many points for coming from just a pretty good department.

 

[UnderPar22]

The reason i was so productive was bc I have essentially run three rads research projects thru all of med school, from patient recruitment to data analysis, with collab with different groups of researchers. It's absolutely possible to latch onto a group and get multiple pubs/presentations (although you generally do have to contribute significantly to be 1st author, at least here) but driving the research is important bc programs want you to do this as a resident. Also, applying to the Holman/T32 tracks of programs makes the research even more relevant.

Impressive nonetheless. So you must have known from day 1 that radiology is what you wanted to do. I don't even think I knew what radiology was all about until I got to third year.

 

[UnderPar22]

After going through the match, I can share some insights:

1.) Step 1 is important, and step 2 is not. Also, there is a difference (and a large one at that) between >250, >260, and >270 on Step 1. It's silly to think otherwise.

2.) Manuscripts are helpful, but posters/oral presentations/grants get no respect. I had about 30 abstracts at prestigious conferences, but got asked about...zero. I also had grants and oral presentations, which were also neglected during interviews. But, I was frequently complimented on bringing so many projects to completion as published articles. Publications in the field is definitely key. I was consistently asked about my pubs in the field, but never about my basic science research (which was also in the field). No clinician wants to talk about a basic science paper they know nothing about during an interview.

3.) Med school reputation is important. Applying from a top 10 med school is a bonus, but anything below that is basically all the same. Top 50 or Top 25 doesn't really help you, but obviously won't hurt you compared to lower tier schools. I assume that this is because there aren't really that many allopathic med schools, so top 25/50 isn't really that impressive.

4.) Med school geography can be very restrictive. Northeast med students get
interviews all over the country. California med students get interviews all over the country. Southern med students get interviews in the South almost exclusively. Midwest med students get interviews in the Midwest almost exclusively. There are obvious exceptions to this rule, but usually it is due to a.) important family members in the field, b.) big wig letter writers, or less often c.) an applicant that excels in
every aspect of their application (scores, grades, research, letters).

5.) Home institution program reputation can help your application. Coming from a top 10 residency program can help your application tremendulously. Below that, you don't get many points for coming from just a pretty good department.

Just curious, from looking at your previous posts, are you not an ophthalmology resident? If so cool, but I was just wondering if these observations you made also apply to radiology? I was under the impression that ophtho tended to be more competitive due to the fact there are less spots available.

 

[drizzt3117]

Impressive nonetheless. So you must have known from day 1 that radiology is what you wanted to do. I don't even think I knew what radiology was all about until I got to third year.

Yeah, I worked on the executive management side of medical device/imaging prior to med school so I knew that was what I wanted to do.

I think a lot of the points the previous poster made are valid, I don't think the assertions regarding Step scores mattering over a certain cutoff (at least not a significant degree) are, however, as I have a couple mentors that are/were program directors and have a decent amount of insight into the selection process at a couple very competitive programs. I do think there are some regional biases, but I think they can be overcome through careful planning (aways, letters, phone calls on your behalf, etc)

 

[blackbird11384]

The reason i was so productive was bc I have essentially run three rads research projects thru all of med school, from patient recruitment to data analysis, with collab with different groups of researchers. It's absolutely possible to latch onto a group and get multiple pubs/presentations (although you generally do have to contribute significantly to be 1st author, at least here) but driving the research is important bc programs want you to do this as a resident. Also, applying to the Holman/T32 tracks of programs makes the research even more relevant.

If you don't mind answering drizzt, are you an MD/PhD student? If not, how in the hell did you find the time to do all this and still rock medical school. Are you one of those high functioning type II bipolars? just kidding...sort of.

 

[drizzt3117]

If you don't mind answering drizzt, are you an MD/PhD student? If not, how in the hell did you find the time to do all this and still rock medical school. Are you one of those high functioning type II bipolars? just kidding...sort of.

I'm just a MD student. Haha, just good time management I guess. I actually managed to work out 3-4 days a week throughout med school including M3 and go out more than my classmates, I'm not really sure, I guess I just didn't spend much time studying

 

[princess peach]

Haha, just good time management I guess. I actually managed to work out 3-4 days a week throughout med school including M3 and go out more than my classmates, I'm not really sure, I guess I just didn't spend much time studying

and modest too! swoon.

 

[drizzt3117]

and modest too! swoon.

haha *blushes*

 

[MrBurns10]

Looks like we need to start a new forum, SDN Hotel.

Also, take what junkemail said with a grain of salt. A large grain of salt.

 

[junkemail86]

Looks like we need to start a new forum, SDN Hotel.

Also, take what junkemail said with a grain of salt. A large grain of salt.

You're right, I was completely mistaken when I implied that Step 1, med school reputation, and research are important. Never before has such a ridiculous assertion been made on SDN. I just find it odd that the first person to call me out was: a female with admittedly weak stats but supposedly strong research (one of the criteria I mentioned) coming from a top 10 med school (one of the criteria I mentioned) with a top 10 rads department (one of the criteria I mentioned) who matched at their home institution that is known to be very inbred and desperate for female residents.

 

[MrBurns10]

You're right, I was completely mistaken when I implied that Step 1, med school reputation, and research are important. Never before has such a ridiculous assertion been made on SDN. I just find it odd that the first person to call me out was: a female with admittedly weak stats but supposedly strong research (one of the criteria I mentioned) coming from a top 10 med school (one of the criteria I mentioned) with a top 10 rads department (one of the criteria I mentioned) who matched at their home institution that is known to be very inbred and desperate for female residents.

The only weak stat of mine was my step, which goes against the (very common) idea it's everything (though I'm not naive to think it doesn't matter...I'm sure there were some programs that didn't interview me because of that). I do disagree that there's a difference between a 250 and a 260...a 250 is a great score. I also disagree that the only thing that matters is publications. I had a lot of research, won a research award, gave a presentation at a national meeting, etc...but none have been publications yet. My experiences alone mattered for a lot. Coming from a top 10 school helped I'm sure, but I disagree that coming from a "top 25" doesn't. I also met a ton of med students from non-top 25 schools at even top tier interviews.

My point in taking your advice with a grain of salt (and perhaps my reply sounded harsh, so I apologize) is that your advice may unnecessarily freak people out, and I didn't want them to take it as gospel given that my experiences were different from yours. Maybe my experiences were the outlier, who knows! Of course, everything you can add to your application helps (high step 1, clinical grades, top school, whatever), but the people on this thread are all great candidates who are going to match well.

As for Duke, there definitely were more med students that ended up at Duke my year, but we had at least 4 of us who wanted to stay and were good candidates...I think it speaks to the department that so many wanted to stay. There usually are 1-2 Duke students that stay, but they are good candidates who interview at other great programs and decide to stay. If you want to call that inbred and "desperate for females" (not sure how you make that assertion, but okay) then cool.

 

[2012mdc]

After going through the match, I can share some insights:

1.) Step 1 is important, and step 2 is not. Also, there is a difference (and a large one at that) between >250, >260, and >270 on Step 1. It's silly to think otherwise.

2.) Manuscripts are helpful, but posters/oral presentations/grants get no respect. I had about 30 abstracts at prestigious conferences, but got asked about...zero. I also had grants and oral presentations, which were also neglected during interviews. But, I was frequently complimented on bringing so many projects to completion as published articles. Publications in the field is definitely key. I was consistently asked about my pubs in the field, but never about my basic science research (which was also in the field). No clinician wants to talk about a basic science paper they know nothing about during an interview.

3.) Med school reputation is important. Applying from a top 10 med school is a bonus, but anything below that is basically all the same. Top 50 or Top 25 doesn't really help you, but obviously won't hurt you compared to lower tier schools. I assume that this is because there aren't really that many allopathic med schools, so top 25/50 isn't really that impressive.

4.) Med school geography can be very restrictive. Northeast med students get
interviews all over the country. California med students get interviews all over the country. Southern med students get interviews in the South almost exclusively. Midwest med students get interviews in the Midwest almost exclusively. There are obvious exceptions to this rule, but usually it is due to a.) important family members in the field, b.) big wig letter writers, or less often c.) an applicant that excels in
every aspect of their application (scores, grades, research, letters).

5.) Home institution program reputation can help your application. Coming from a top 10 residency program can help your application tremendulously. Below that, you don't get many points for coming from just a pretty good department.

I'll just say my app strength/qualities and my program list will be a good test for your listed points. I'll re-post after IV's come in and again after the match

 

[Radiculous]

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[Radiculous]

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[Radiculous]

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[boogah]

how can you tell if a place is community or academic if it isnt entirely obvious? Is Santa barbara cottage community? Kaiser LA or harbor-ucla? Their websites do emphasize research which makes it confusing.

 

[drizzt3117]

how can you tell if a place is community or academic if it isnt entirely obvious? Is Santa barbara cottage community? Kaiser LA or harbor-ucla? Their websites do emphasize research which makes it confusing.

Those are all community programs. An academic program is at a university's home site, ie, Ucla medical center.

 

[xx216xx]

man, y'all are ridiculous

But anyways, I'll be joining you guys this cycle, I'm gearing all my app stuff towards the DIRECT programs though but off course applying to plenty of DR programs. I'm still working on my PS but have it mostly finished, just need to polished it. Have two LORs from surgeons on the way, one being from the chief of surgery, and one LOR from an IR doc. Step 1 is >255, taking CS next week and CK in november, honored 4/6 during third year, nominated for junior AOA but didn't get it, will probably be nominated again this year and we'll see how that goes. I'll be doing a DR away at UW, an IR at ann arbor, and possibly a short 2 weeker IR at UPenn. I'm hella excited about all of those.

I'm probably applying to around 50 or so programs and 10-15 TYs. I know this is a little excessive but I consider it an investment in my future and I'd prefer to have too many options than too few. Plus I'm applying to a lot of programs that I perceive to be reaches and since I'm at a no name school in texas and want to head a little more north, i need to apply broadly up there.

Looking forward to seeing how this year goes for everyone. Quick question though, for the TYs should I write a completely different personal statement, write a short paragraph explaining why their program would be a great starting point, or just sent my rads one to them? I'm leaning towards just adding a paragraph at the end explaining how great their program would be for my education and what not.

 

[drizzt3117]

Uw = Washington?

man, y'all are ridiculous

But anyways, I'll be joining you guys this cycle, I'm gearing all my app stuff towards the DIRECT programs though but off course applying to plenty of DR programs. I'm still working on my PS but have it mostly finished, just need to polished it. Have two LORs from surgeons on the way, one being from the chief of surgery, and one LOR from an IR doc. Step 1 is >255, taking CS next week and CK in november, honored 4/6 during third year, nominated for junior AOA but didn't get it, will probably be nominated again this year and we'll see how that goes. I'll be doing a DR away at UW, an IR at ann arbor, and possibly a short 2 weeker IR at UPenn. I'm hella excited about all of those.

I'm probably applying to around 50 or so programs and 10-15 TYs. I know this is a little excessive but I consider it an investment in my future and I'd prefer to have too many options than too few. Plus I'm applying to a lot of programs that I perceive to be reaches and since I'm at a no name school in texas and want to head a little more north, i need to apply broadly up there.

Looking forward to seeing how this year goes for everyone. Quick question though, for the TYs should I write a completely different personal statement, write a short paragraph explaining why their program would be a great starting point, or just sent my rads one to them? I'm leaning towards just adding a paragraph at the end explaining how great their program would be for my education and what not.

 

[xx216xx]

Uw = Washington?

yep, heading to seattle in a couple weeks

 

[drizzt3117]

yep, heading to seattle in a couple weeks

I'd appreciate your thoughts on the program, it's an intriguing one!

 

[PokerDoc]

I'm applying to 60 programs up and down the east coast mainly due to my crappy (229) step 1 score. I take step 2 in two weeks, i really hope its not true that step 2 doesnt mean much because I am scoring 250+ on my practices.

 

[jahbrony]

I'm applying to 60 programs up and down the east coast mainly due to my crappy (229) step 1 score. I take step 2 in two weeks, i really hope its not true that step 2 doesnt mean much because I am scoring 250+ on my practices.

This site has a survey of what PDs think by specialty. I found it useful to look at.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf The radiology PD section is on 26/144.

I think in your situation it'd definitely help. Good luck

 

[PokerDoc]

This site has a survey of what PDs think by specialty. I found it useful to look at.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf The radiology PD section is on 26/144.

I think in your situation it'd definitely help. Good luck

Thanks, doesn't change my opinion that step 1 was pretty important tho haha.

 

[Adam638]

I know numerous people who have matched at solid academic programs with Step 1 scores in the 220-230 range. Check out Charting Outcomes in the Match for exact numbers. Step 2 isn't going to make a huge difference unless you are above 245-250. That being said, do well on Step 2 and apply early and broadly. You will be match if the rest of you app is solid. Good luck.

 

[PokerDoc]

I know numerous people who have matched at solid academic programs with Step 1 scores in the 220-230 range. Check out Charting Outcomes in the Match for exact numbers. Step 2 isn't going to make a huge difference unless you are above 245-250. That being said, do well on Step 2 and apply early and broadly. You will be match if the rest of you app is solid. Good luck.

Yeah I am not THAT worried, I am just being smart about it, I'm not assuming I can apply narrowly and that it'll all work out. I think my LORs will be the strongest part of my app by far, and I am a good interviewer, I just need to make it to the interview stage and then I'm not worried.

I'm doing both my audition rotations in the same city at the two programs there, and I'll make it clear to them that it is where I want to live.

 

[xx216xx]

so I was reading some stuff on auntminnie and came across the suggestion by a PD that I shouldn't mention that I'm certain I want to pursue a VIR fellowship and I don't really understand why. I thought one of the goals of the PS was to express your career goals? I guess if i do take that suggestion should I then make a separate PS that expresses my VIR interest for programs that have a DIRECT pathway?

This kinda sucks now, I thought i was done with my PS finally and now I'm prolly gonna have to change it.

 

[2012mdc]

so I was reading some stuff on auntminnie and came across the suggestion by a PD that I shouldn't mention that I'm certain I want to pursue a VIR fellowship and I don't really understand why. I thought one of the goals of the PS was to express your career goals? I guess if i do take that suggestion should I then make a separate PS that expresses my VIR interest for programs that have a DIRECT pathway?

This kinda sucks now, I thought i was done with my PS finally and now I'm prolly gonna have to change it.

I've heard that as well. Something about PD's worrying you won't enjoy all of the other required rotations and might not work as hard.

 

[xx216xx]

I've heard that as well. Something about PD's worrying you won't enjoy all of the other required rotations and might not work as hard.

That's the only thing I can figure. That or not keeping my options open since a fellowship would be five years later and my feelings may change by that point. I dunno, I'm prolly gonna make two personal statements now.....dammit

 

[badasshairday]

That's the only thing I can figure. That or not keeping my options open since a fellowship would be five years later and my feelings my change by that point. I dunno, I'm prolly gonna make two personal statements now.....dammit

You could mention some VIR stuff in your PS, just don't make it the sole theme of your PS. Keep it more general. Same thing with your LOR's, get one from IR... AND DR. I think one of my psych letters may indicate my VIR preference, but I think it will be okay. PD at my institution said he doesn't look at VIR interest as unfavorable or favorable, because he says like 80% of people express intrest in VIR but only 5% of them end up doing it.

 

[2012mdc]

You could mention some VIR stuff in your PS, just don't make it the sole theme of your PS. Keep it more general. Same thing with your LOR's, get one from IR... AND DR. I think one of my psych letters may indicate my VIR preference, but I think it will be okay. PD at my institution said he doesn't look at VIR interest as unfavorable or favorable, because he says like 80% of people express intrest in VIR but only 5% of them end up doing it.

True

But make sure you find out what programs specifically want. Some programs want 3 letters and only want 1 of them to be from Radiology. The exception is a 4th letter from a research mentor.

 

[MossPoh]

I know numerous people who have matched at solid academic programs with Step 1 scores in the 220-230 range. Check out Charting Outcomes in the Match for exact numbers. Step 2 isn't going to make a huge difference unless you are above 245-250. That being said, do well on Step 2 and apply early and broadly. You will be match if the rest of you app is solid. Good luck.

I think reading through these scores would make most people a little concerned. Anything over 240 has very little difference in chance of matching. That doesn't say much for the quality, but I have a hard time believing PDs don't understand how steep that curve is at the top. Seriously, if I didn't have 3 random foot anatomy questions and click the wrong answer to 2 questions (which I relive over and over again) then my score would probably be much higher.

Anyway, good luck to all you freaks applying right now. I'm still in the beginning of 3rd year. I keep bouncing between orthopedics and radiology, but I'm starting to think radiology will win out for multiple reasons.

 

[2012mdc]

I think reading through these scores would make most people a little concerned. Anything over 240 has very little difference in chance of matching. That doesn't say much for the quality, but I have a hard time believing PDs don't understand how steep that curve is at the top. Seriously, if I didn't have 3 random foot anatomy questions and click the wrong answer to 2 questions (which I relive over and over again) then my score would probably be much higher.

Anyway, good luck to all you freaks applying right now. I'm still in the beginning of 3rd year. I keep bouncing between orthopedics and radiology, but I'm starting to think radiology will win out for multiple reasons.

No one really knows how steep the curve is at the top but given that 280 has been cracked the curve can't be that steep. Especially since there are 300+ questions.

Just do Radiology and do MSK

 

[Asp]

Agree, the curve isn't that steep.. it's just too hard to know everything

 

[drizzt3117]

No one really knows how steep the curve is at the top but given that 280 has been cracked the curve can't be that steep. Especially since there are 300+ questions.

Just do Radiology and do MSK

I think the curve is pretty steep at the top from what I've heard. Certain people I know have gotten in the 280s+ on the test and they know for a fact they got < 3-4 questions wrong. This may have been thrown off by the fact that not all of the questions count as well.

 

[2012mdc]

I think the curve is pretty steep at the top from what I've heard. Certain people I know have gotten in the 280s+ on the test and they know for a fact they got < 3-4 questions wrong. This may have been thrown off by the fact that not all of the questions count as well.

That supports my argument. Missing 3 or 4 is like a 99%. People in the 260s and 270s aren't near that percentage. I probably missed 25 or 30 and cracked 260. A few questions was not going to put me in the 270s. Of course the curve gets steeper but not to the extent y'all are implying. I think there is a small but real difference between a 260 and a 270. Whether that difference means anything is a separate issue

 

[drizzt3117]

That supports my argument. Missing 3 or 4 is like a 99%. People in the 260s and 270s aren't near that percentage. I probably missed 25 or 30 and cracked 260. A few questions was not going to put me in the 270s. Of course the curve gets steeper but not to the extent y'all are implying. I think there is a small but real difference between a 260 and a 270. Whether that difference means anything is a separate issue

I guess we won't know, and it's a matter of opinion. I think 5-7 qs separates a 260/270, we'll have to agree to disagree on whether that's a "lot"

 

[Asp]

I guess we won't know, and it's a matter of opinion. I think 5-7 qs separates a 260/270, we'll have to agree to disagree on whether that's a "lot"

It's more like 10-15 questions. But you're right. A 260, 270, 280 is like BMW M3, Lamborghini, Bugatti Veyron -- small difference, or big difference, all depending on your perspective and level of obsession.

 

[2012mdc]

It's more like 10-15 questions. But you're right. A 260, 270, 280 is like BMW M3, Lamborghini, Bugatti Veyron -- small difference, or big difference, all depending on your perspective and level of obsession.

Nice analogy


BMW M3 (260) - impressive but not rare and quite popular

Lambo (270) - will definitely turn heads as they are uncommon in most places

Bugatti (280) - shocking as these are rare wherever you go

 

[drizzt3117]

The wild card is that not all the questions count in the final score, so you could get qs wrong but if they don't count, you could get a very high score.

 

[Radiculous]

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