Radiology 2012 applicants

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Radiculous said:
May I ask... why? It's intern year-- it's going to be some degree of suck, with most hours in the hospital. And you're gone after a year. So why not go the easiest or most convenient place possible, regardless of location
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I'm applying pretty geographically too, moving sucks, and it's also much easier to coordinate your interviews if they're essentially in the same geographic area.
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Radiculous said:
May I ask... why? It's intern year-- it's going to be some degree of suck, with most hours in the hospital. And you're gone after a year. So why not go the easiest or most convenient place possible, regardless of location
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When I said location is really important I was including convenience as part of that. I really would prefer not to move twice. I'm applying to a good number of rads programs in competitive locations so I want to be able to be in the same city for intern year and not move twice. Many of the cities I'm applying to are more desirable than where I am currently so I definitely prefer to move sooner rather than later.

If I match somewhere that's undesirable then I would be willing to move twice. I haven't lived near my immediate family and close friends in almost 10 years so I would be willing to move twice if I knew I would get 1 year with them with 4 more years of being far away from them on the horizon
 
2012mdc said:
When I said location is really important I was including convenience as part of that. I really would prefer not to move twice. I'm applying to a good number of rads programs in competitive locations so I want to be able to be in the same city for intern year and not move twice. Many of the cities I'm applying to are more desirable than where I am currently so I definitely prefer to move sooner rather than later.

If I match somewhere that's undesirable then I would be willing to move twice. I haven't lived near my immediate family and close friends in almost 10 years so I would be willing to move twice if I knew I would get 1 year with them with 4 more years of being far away from them on the horizon
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Got it, makes sense now
 
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Radiculous said:
Got it, makes sense now
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I should point out, though, that the whole "applying to TYs in areas I am applying in rads" gambit is not as easy as it sounds, for several reasons:

#1 Even if TY/prelim and Rads program in question are in the same city, it is often more of a headache than it sounds like. Take Boston as an example. Brockton, Caritas, Shattuck are all at least 20 minutes outside of Boston, so unless you want to deal with a big commute from the city every day for a year, you'll probably have to move your crap twice anyway. Or Flushing, NYHQ, MSKCC in NYC. You want to commute from Manhattan to Flushing every day? Or, if you get MSKCC's subsidized housing if they still offer it on the Upper East Side, what if you match Columbia for Rads? Getting from the Upper East Side to 168th on the Upper West Side is actually kind of a bitch. And on and on. Unless you are damn lucky with geography and two reasonably closely spaced programs (Let's say Albert Einstein TY / Penn Rads, MSKCC TY / Cornell), you're going to have to deal with either a ****ty commute one year or a double move. The best bet to avoid moving twice or commuter hell is to stay at your home program, go for the few "integrated" programs with built-in prelims (e.g. Emory), or suck it up and go to the generally brutal med or surg prelims at the same academic institutions you are targetting for rads. Hopefully you are fortunate enough to have some good options.

#2 There are usually preset handful of interview dates, and whether the interview dates of the TY/prelim and rads programs in the same geographic area line up is entirely up to chance. And by the time you get both interviews, you may have already scheduled another interview elsewhere, because the season is generally so tightly packed. Again, if you suck it up and go for the brutal med/surg prelims at the academic institutions where you are targetting rads, then there is generally more flexibility to coordinate prelim and rads interviews on the same day or consecutive days, but even then don't count on it.

Long story short, it sounds nice but it's going to be a nightmare. Good luck.
 
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Radiculous said:
I should point out, though, that the whole "applying to TYs in areas I am applying in rads" gambit is not as easy as it sounds, for several reasons:

#1 Even if TY/prelim and Rads program in question are in the same city, it is often more of a headache than it sounds like. Take Boston as an example. Brockton, Caritas, Shattuck are all at least 20 minutes outside of Boston, so unless you want to deal with a big commute from the city every day for a year, you'll probably have to move your crap twice anyway. Or Flushing, NYHQ, MSKCC in NYC. You want to commute from Manhattan to Flushing every day? Or, if you get MSKCC's subsidized housing if they still offer it on the Upper East Side, what if you match Columbia for Rads? Getting from the Upper East Side to 168th on the Upper West Side is actually kind of a bitch. And on and on. Unless you are damn lucky with geography and two reasonably closely spaced programs (Let's say Albert Einstein TY / Penn Rads, MSKCC TY / Cornell), you're going to have to deal with either a ****ty commute one year or a double move. The best bet to avoid moving twice or commuter hell is to stay at your home program, go for the few "integrated" programs with built-in prelims (e.g. Emory), or suck it up and go to the generally brutal med or surg prelims at the same academic institutions you are targetting for rads. Hopefully you are fortunate enough to have some good options.

#2 There are usually preset handful of interview dates, and whether the interview dates of the TY/prelim and rads programs in the same geographic area line up is entirely up to chance. And by the time you get both interviews, you may have already scheduled another interview elsewhere, because the season is generally so tightly packed. Again, if you suck it up and go for the brutal med/surg prelims at the academic institutions where you are targetting rads, then there is generally more flexibility to coordinate prelim and rads interviews on the same day or consecutive days, but even then don't count on it.

Long story short, it sounds nice but it's going to be a nightmare. Good luck.
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Yeah it definitely is with the ones you mentioned. Thankfully I'm only applying to a few where that would be an issue. And I would be more open to move twice if it is within the same city especially if it gets me to LA for an extra year.

I'm definitely applying to my home program and it will probably end up high on many of my supplemental lists.
 
A lot of the surg prelims don't require an interview if you're applying to the parent institution for an advanced residency. I'm applying to a few community prelims in specific areas as well, which will be somewhat harder to coordinate but oh well.
 
Man, the people in this thread... Why don't you bozos just do procedural derm or rad onc. If I had your stats thats what I would do. Now I finally understand why the trolls on auntminnie talk crap about the future of rads, to get you guys do something else.


To the mere mortals who posted: good luck fellow scrub students. :thumbup:
 
SGuttenberg said:
Man, the people in this thread... Why don't you bozos just do procedural derm or rad onc. If I had your stats thats what I would do. Now I finally understand why the trolls on auntminnie talk crap about the future of rads, to get you guys do something else.


To the mere mortals who posted: good luck fellow scrub students. :thumbup:
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You couldn't pay me enough money to do derm.
Rad Onc would probably be my second choice though, amazing field.

I think you'll be very surprised by where people end up come Match Day. Stats get your foot in the door, then it gets crazy.
 
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Had "the talk" with my sig-O

Looks like certain places are better for her than I knew.

Specifically:

-Michigan
-Bay Area

Guess I'll be clamoring for an interview to UCSF and Stanford after all. As a non-CA resident with no ties, I'm probably boned. Then again, the UCSF and Stanford websites say that away rotations are neither necessary nor sufficient for an interview invitation (and many UCSF med students applying in rads don't even get a UCSF courtesy interview), so who knows how much that would've helped. DrizzT, you will be the litmus test!
 
Hopefully I can get to my next away in the face of a hurricane!
 
Radiculous said:
Where to next? Also -- 3 aways? Is that normal? I applaud your ambition and your bank account.
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It's a little many, but I want to get a broad experience and learn a lot about rads. My three aways are at ucsf, Stanford, and bwh.
 
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drizzt3117 said:
It's a little many, but I want to get a broad experience and learn a lot about rads. My three aways are at ucsf, Stanford, and bwh.
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They also happen to be at the three institutions where it is most difficult to get an interview. Smart man (provided you stay on your A game)
 
SGuttenberg said:
Man, the people in this thread... Why don't you bozos just do procedural derm or rad onc. If I had your stats thats what I would do. Now I finally understand why the trolls on auntminnie talk crap about the future of rads, to get you guys do something else.


To the mere mortals who posted: good luck fellow scrub students. :thumbup:
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Rad onc was my second choice and it took a while to decide on which one I preferred, but the nonstop clinic of rad onc was not for me, even if their clinic is relatively benign. They're both great fields though.
 
SGuttenberg said:
Man, the people in this thread... Why don't you bozos just do procedural derm or rad onc. If I had your stats thats what I would do. Now I finally understand why the trolls on auntminnie talk crap about the future of rads, to get you guys do something else.


To the mere mortals who posted: good luck fellow scrub students. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

I thought about derm for a quick second and then I realized how boring skin is to me. I really tried to convince myself to like it but I gave up quickly.

I spent more time considering rad onc but I decided the field was too narrow for me and didn't have enough diagnostic potential

Radiculous said:
Had "the talk" with my sig-O

Looks like certain places are better for her than I knew.

Specifically:

-Michigan
-Bay Area

Guess I'll be clamoring for an interview to UCSF and Stanford after all. As a non-CA resident with no ties, I'm probably boned. Then again, the UCSF and Stanford websites say that away rotations are neither necessary nor sufficient for an interview invitation (and many UCSF med students applying in rads don't even get a UCSF courtesy interview), so who knows how much that would've helped. DrizzT, you will be the litmus test!
Click to expand...

If Stanford residency is anything like the UG then you should have a fair shot. When I was there about half the students were from outside Cali. And going there for UG was not enough for an interview to the med school.

The Bay is great. Good luck :thumbup:
 
How are you guys dealing with programs that have multiple options to apply to. For example one programs had an option to apply to
1) advanced pgy-2 spot
2) categorically with a medicine internship
3) categorically with a surgery internship

I am choosing to apply to all three at this program. I wonder how they dole out interviews for these? 3 interviews?
 
Anybody resisting the urge to apply to more programs as 9/1 approaches?
I'm back up to 42.
 
Radiculous said:
Anybody resisting the urge to apply to more programs as 9/1 approaches?
I'm back up to 42.
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I couldn't resist and built my list back up to 45 and added some more prelims too.
 
Thanks to the superstars of sdn and auntminnie, I am back up to 50.

ps: After reading some posts on auntminnie, I really think after these next few months, we're all gonna go, "man, I applied to way too many places. I should have spent that money on something else instead." Hindsight is 20/20 though.
 
jahbrony said:
Thanks to the superstars of sdn and auntminnie, I am back up to 50.

ps: After reading some posts on auntminnie, I really think after these next few months, we're all gonna go, "man, I applied to way too many places. I should have spent that money on something else instead." Hindsight is 20/20 though.
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The recent "most competitive" thread on AM restarted the paranoia. I'm applying to every single one of the "top 20" except Mayo.
 
I actually cut down my list a few programs. I'm down to 50. Its shocking seeing some of you superstars apply to that many! :eek:

Anybody else finalize their MyEras application already? The 5 steps of confirmation make it much scarier than it should be.
 
I am only applying to 26 programs. The programs are mostly in the midwest with a large majority of them being less competitive though. My wife and I are having a baby soon so we would prefer to stay closer to home, that's my reasoning.
 
DrBowtie said:
I actually cut down my list a few programs. I'm down to 50. Its shocking seeing some of you superstars apply to that many! :eek:

Anybody else finalize their MyEras application already? The 5 steps of confirmation make it much scarier than it should be.
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Peace of mind is priceless. I won't lose sleep over potentially wasting money by over-applying but I wouldn't sleep until I got like 10 IV invites if I felt like I didn't apply to enough.

I'm not finalizing until I can submit. Don't really have a reason but I have no reason to finalize now and wait to submit.
 
Believe me, I'm a huge advocate spending the money. I'm definitely overall applying to a less competitive 50 than the rest of you. I'm more curious than anything to see the bottoms of your lists.

I just submitted so I would stop from double checking it and trying to think of ways to tweak it.
 
Question(s) about interviews:


  • Do you guys know when most programs start sending out interview invites? Should we be checking our emails incessantly for invites in the first few weeks of September? Or cool it?


  • I imagine interview invites will trickle in vs. a tidal wave of them. What do you do if you get interviews at places A, B, C...but not from D. So you go ahead and schedule interview dates. Then place D finally comes around to giving you an interview, but your schedule is now booked with interviews elsewhere. Poor taste I imagine to cancel an interview at A to go to D, no? So how do you prevent this?
    • Do you hold off on scheduling interviews after receiving an invite, hoping to save room for 'better' invites?
    • Or do you go ahead and schedule everything as they come in, and go ahead and renege on prior interviews.

DrBowtie said:
I just submitted so I would stop from double checking it and trying to think of ways to tweak it.
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I should do this. I've been done with my app+personal statement for awhile now. But, I know as soon as I click certify I'm going to find a bunch of typos. It's bound to happen.
 
jahbrony said:
Question(s) about interviews:


  • Do you guys know when most programs start sending out interview invites? Should we be checking our emails incessantly for invites in the first few weeks of September? Or cool it?
Check this thread out on AM - http://www.auntminnie.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=271504&mpage=14&#286206




  • I imagine interview invites will trickle in vs. a tidal wave of them. What do you do if you get interviews at places A, B, C...but not from D. So you go ahead and schedule interview dates. Then place D finally comes around to giving you an interview, but your schedule is now booked with interviews elsewhere. Poor taste I imagine to cancel an interview at A to go to D, no? So how do you prevent this?
    • Do you hold off on scheduling interviews after receiving an invite, hoping to save room for 'better' invites?
    • Or do you go ahead and schedule everything as they come in, and go ahead and renege on prior interviews
Schedule them as they appear. A program will not care if you cancel an IV, just do it with enough time for them to reschedule another applicant. IV spots fill up quickly so waiting will hurt you. Typically many of the more competitive programs wait to send out invites so it is dangerous to not schedule IV's early and "bank" on getting ones from the more competitive places later.



I should do this. I've been done with my app+personal statement for awhile now. But, I know as soon as I click certify I'm going to find a bunch of typos. It's bound to happen.
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..
 
You guys are crazy to apply for radiology. Graduates with 2-3 fellowships are begging for jobs. By the time you finish, there won't be any job Believe me.
 
nightflight said:
You guys are crazy to apply for radiology. Graduates with 2-3 fellowships are begging for jobs. By the time you finish, there won't be any job Believe me.
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lol. 4 posts (3 of which were conveniently deleted this morning). Troll on.
 
Radiculous said:
Anybody resisting the urge to apply to more programs as 9/1 approaches?
I'm back up to 42.
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I'm at 79 right now :( I'm gonna trim it back to 65 or so by tonight though, but probably no lower than that. My 229 step I score is a killer, I need the number to be high.
 
I have 3 clinical letters and one rads. I never thought it was that big of a deal to have 4 total vs 3. If you have another good letter, I would use it.
 
DrBowtie said:
So after reading AM and here the consensus is 2 clinical + 1 rads + 1 research if applicable.

Thoughts on 3 clinical + 1 rads?
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I'm sending 3 to the ones that specifically mention they want just 3 and don't say 3 minimum
 
Nobody wants to do 1+4+2 years of education and then go jobless. You guys are crazy to apply. OK, I am a troll but;

1- go to your residency program and ask your fellows where have they found a job.
2- See how many fellows are doing a second fellowship.
3-Do an internet job search for radiology versus any other specialty or even hospitalist and get a rough estimate of job market. There are 180-200 jobs for more than 1000 radiology graduates.
 
nightflight said:
Nobody wants to do 1+4+2 years of education and then go jobless. You guys are crazy to apply. OK, I am a troll but;

1- go to your residency program and ask your fellows where have they found a job.
2- See how many fellows are doing a second fellowship.
3-Do an internet job search for radiology versus any other specialty or even hospitalist and get a rough estimate of job market. There are 180-200 jobs for more than 1000 radiology graduates.
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I'd rather be jobless than an internist.
 
New Charting outcomes data shows %US Matched at 96% so that is very comforting compared to other competitive specialties.

USMLE Step 1 up to 240 mean for matched candidates.
 
DrBowtie said:
New Charting outcomes data shows %US Matched at 96% so that is very comforting compared to other competitive specialties.

USMLE Step 1 up to 240 mean for matched candidates.
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Not surprising.

96% hardly qualified as "competitive" anymore. It's because there are so many community programs out there, over 1000 spots available. There's really two tiers of competition in rads -- getting a spot period, which is not that difficult if you apply and interview broadly and have done well in third year / decently high step 1 --- and getting into one of the 50 or so nebulous "great" programs, which becomes exponentially more difficult as evidenced by the freaks of nature on this thread, all of us included
 
PokerDoc said:
I'm at 79 right now :( I'm gonna trim it back to 65 or so by tonight though, but probably no lower than that. My 229 step I score is a killer, I need the number to be high.
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I hear you - I'm at 67 Rads programs right now. I also have 229 Step 1 score. I hope I match...
 
Guys don't worry about the job market. Yea it's bad, but jobs are still there for most. I hope that poster doesn't actually believe there only 15% of residents are employed after fellowship. Sure, I met a handful of people on the trail last year who were doing a second fellowship (even ones who went to "top 5" residencies and first fellowships). But IMO, Jobless radiologists exist for 3 reasons:
-inflexibility: job offers are there, but some feel entitled to the high salaries that were offered in 2005, and refuse to accept a relatively weak offer or a job in a less desirable area (probably what happened with the fellows at big name places getting a second fellowship)
-the applicant did a terrible job actively seeking a position in a bad job market
-the resident was glaringly weak or came from a truly terrible program
 
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2012mdc said:
I'm sending 3 to the ones that specifically mention they want just 3 and don't say 3 minimum
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I emailed every program that says just 3, all of them said you can send more, two of them said that they may or may not read the extra ones, but I don't remember which ones those were, they weren't top programs. All of the others said 3 was just the minimum requirement.
 
drizzt3117 said:
I emailed every program that says just 3, all of them said you can send more, two of them said that they may or may not read the extra ones, but I don't remember which ones those were, they weren't top programs. All of the others said 3 was just the minimum requirement.
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Thanks. Yeah I haven't run into any programs that say 3 absolute max.

Here are the programs I found that said something other than the generic "3 letters"

UAB – 2 of the letters must be non rads

UCSD – 4 letters allowed, at least 1 must be rads (clinical)

UCSF – 3, 1 rads max. 4th only if research

Gtown – 1 rads max.
UF – 1 rads required
MUSC - 1 rads required
 
I finalized my list of prelim surg/rads at 37 rads, 13 prelims + (4 mixed/categorical) I dropped two prelims and added two rads to keep it at a nice round 50 programs :)
 
cowme said:
Guys don't worry about the job market. Yea it's bad, but jobs are still there for most. I hope that poster doesn't actually believe there only 15% of residents are employed after fellowship. Sure, I met a handful of people on the trail last year who were doing a second fellowship (even ones who went to "top 5" residencies and first fellowships). But IMO, Jobless radiologists exist for 3 reasons:
-inflexibility: job offers are there, but some feel entitled to the high salaries that were offered in 2005, and refuse to accept a relatively weak offer or a job in a less desirable area (probably what happened with the fellows at big name places getting a second fellowship)
-the applicant did a terrible job actively seeking a position in a bad job market
-the resident was glaringly weak or came from a truly terrible program
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There are jobs out there. But you will get paid 180-200K without any partnership track, while dermatologists, anesthesiologists, cardiologists and many others are starting with 400K+. Even Hospitalists are making 200-220 K these days with one week on, one week off. Neurologists start from 280-300K. Hem-onc start from 350K and you have to work every day for 180 K with the hope that in 4-5 years the job market gets better.
I don't say that money is everything. But just be notified that you have to do 7 years of training and then you will find out that your classmates with 4 years of gas, derm or 6 years of GI is making twice as much as you.
 
nightflight said:
There are jobs out there. But you will get paid 180-200K without any partnership track, while dermatologists, anesthesiologists, cardiologists and many others are starting with 400K+. Even Hospitalists are making 200-220 K these days with one week on, one week off. Neurologists start from 280-300K. Hem-onc start from 350K and you have to work every day for 180 K with the hope that in 4-5 years the job market gets better.
I don't say that money is everything. But just be notified that you have to do 7 years of training and then you will find out that your classmates with 4 years of gas, derm or 6 years of GI is making twice as much as you.
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Thanks for the info man.

Now can you keep the posts on topic. Everyone posting here has decided on rads already. We're here to talk about the application and interview process, not worry about a job market we're not close to entering.
 
2012mdc said:
Thanks for the info man.

Now can you keep the posts on topic. Everyone posting here has decided on rads already. We're here to talk about the application and interview process, not worry about a job market we're not close to entering.
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It is not late to change your mind. It is better doing it now rather than 7 years later. There are now graduates in my program thinking about doing 2 years of IM to be able to work as hospitalist. There is only 200 jobs for 1100 graduates each year. So there is surplus of 800 per year. In 7 years it will be 5600 extra radiologists. And most of them will do 3-4 fellowships by then. So you will face a worse situation than us.
Radiology is going to become like pathology. Chronic horrible job market. And it is not unpredictable. Both are very similar except that our numbers are 30-40 more than their on average.
 
Anyone have any strategy to track their applications? The function on ERAS isn't really conducive if you applied to more than a few programs as you must click each individually.
 
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