Radiology 2012 applicants

[UnderPar22]

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originally posted by junkemail86
after going through the match, i can share some insights:

1.) step 1 is important, and step 2 is not. Also, there is a difference (and a large one at that) between >250, >260, and >270 on step 1. It's silly to think otherwise.

2.) manuscripts are helpful, but posters/oral presentations/grants get no respect. I had about 30 abstracts at prestigious conferences, but got asked about...zero. I also had grants and oral presentations, which were also neglected during interviews. But, i was frequently complimented on bringing so many projects to completion as published articles. Publications in the field is definitely key. I was consistently asked about my pubs in the field, but never about my basic science research (which was also in the field). No clinician wants to talk about a basic science paper they know nothing about during an interview.

3.) med school reputation is important. Applying from a top 10 med school is a bonus, but anything below that is basically all the same. Top 50 or top 25 doesn't really help you, but obviously won't hurt you compared to lower tier schools. I assume that this is because there aren't really that many allopathic med schools, so top 25/50 isn't really that impressive.

4.) med school geography can be very restrictive. Northeast med students get
interviews all over the country. California med students get interviews all over the country. Southern med students get interviews in the south almost exclusively. Midwest med students get interviews in the midwest almost exclusively. There are obvious exceptions to this rule, but usually it is due to a.) important family members in the field, b.) big wig letter writers, or less often c.) an applicant that excels in
every aspect of their application (scores, grades, research, letters).

5.) home institution program reputation can help your application. Coming from a top 10 residency program can help your application tremendulously. Below that, you don't get many points for coming from just a pretty good department.

I haven't contributed much to this thread, but I have been lurking and its been interesting following some of the discussion here. Sounds like you all have done great with interviews. Here are my thoughts regarding the these points.

1.) Step 1 is important, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes once you're above 250. Then again who knows for sure. Perhaps it does affect rank lists?

2.) I disagree with this statement. My radiology research has not been published (yet), but I get asked about it all the time. I don't think pubs in the field really matter either. Most of my research is outside of radiology and a lot of my discussion during interviews pertaining to research has to do with my non-radiology stuff (both published and conference material).

3.) Disagree with this statement also. Coming from a top 20 school, I have had several PDs tell me at various interviews that they "love" having residents from my school. I've also done well, as have my classmates, getting interviews from prestigious coastal locations so if anything I am sure our ranking doesn't hurt us. I'd like to think it helps us.

4.) This is very true from my experience. Despite having ties to an outside region where I have done my undergrad, I have had to work incredibly hard (read: multiple letters stating interest, phone calls from mentor) to secure interviews at several programs at mid-tier institutions in this particular location. I've been rejected at over 10 places that are mid/lower tier outside of my region (mostly places in the south). This kind of upsets me because I think there are some great hidden gems out there that I would have loved to take a look at, but alas no love. I feel like geographical bias really only pertains to mid/lower tier places outside of your geographical region.

5.) I could believe this, but only in that if you're coming from a school with a top residency, you are more likely to be mentored by top faculty who are in turn more likely to write you an LOR that will be taken very seriously. Your letter writer will more likely than not have connections at other top places and can make phone calls for you. This is just speculation though, who really knows.

 

[drizzt3117]

..

 

[drizzt3117]

Well the shoe finally dropped from MGH, that was fun while it lasted 😛

 

[killinsound]

Well the shoe finally dropped from MGH, that was fun while it lasted 😛

Did you get a reject... or the "you're on hold but probably rejected bc who would cancel MGH" list?

 

[drizzt3117]

Did you get a reject... or the "you're on hold but probably rejected bc who would cancel MGH?

Dear Applicant,

We regret that we will not be able to consider you as a candidate for our
program (Massachusetts General Hospital). *We thank you for your interest and
wish you well in the specialty.

Sincerely yours,
Radiology Selection Committee
Massachusetts General Hospital

 

[killinsound]

edit

 

[2012mdc]

Here's my take on the regional bias thing, based on my experience, SDN and AM forums, and discussions with my classmates applying

West coast top tier - extremely competitive but receptive to strong OOS applicants and ties matter less
West coast mid tier - still very competitive but ties matter a lot

East Coast top tier - not as competitive as top tiers in the West but still very competitive, ties are not a big deal
East Coast mid tier - not sure about these. Not sure if the yield protect got to me because of stats or because of regional bias.

South top tier - seems to vary by program. Programs like Emory and Duke don't seem to have much bias but Wake seems to
South mid tier - yield protect is big here and it's a combination of numbers and ties

MW top tier - not sure about these as I only applied to 2 non-Chicago ones but ties seem to matter
MW mid tier - didn't apply to any/don't know much about these

 

[badasshairday]

thanks.

 

[2012mdc]

You are fine. This is exactly what you're supposed to do if you want to hold your scores.

 

[jahbrony]

Revisiting Asp's post here. What are your thoughts now?

unfortunately pedigree is very important. It may be even more important than step 1 score. We live in a shallow world.

But let's be honest here. Most people in medical school aren't very different. So why not take the person who went to the better school?

It's all about the page that lists the residents. Schools want to drop names on that page.

Regionality matters. Why? So pds can brag about how they don't have to go low on the rank list.

Step 1 matters. Easy to brag about average step 1 scores of residents.

Aoa matters. X % of our residents were aoa.

I don't think letters, third year grades matter all that much unless there are red flags. Hard for pds to brag about those.

This is my take based on the way my invites and rejections have gone.

• Step 1 is still the most important factor overall in terms of getting interviews at competitive programs.
• That said, a good step 1 score still doesn't guarantee you anything. Regional bias is real and has a large impact on the way your invites/rejections will go. I am from the midwest: I had very good success in the midwest, was moderately successful down south, and only marginally successful out west and out east. The top coastal programs are more likely to ignore the regional ties thing because they're so big and bad they think they can just get anyone (and a lot of times, they can), but the mid tier coastal programs won't be as forgiving.
• Even if you're from the midwest, mid tier midwest programs yield protect.
• Coming from a top 10 med school or med school with a strong radiology program probably helps. I didn't have this and I think it dinged me at a few places.
• AOA matters. It's been brought up on nearly all of my interviews.
• Third year grades matter. This probably goes hand-in-hand in with AOA, though.
• Letters of rec matter. One interviewer told me pointblank, "we normally don't interview people without ties to the area but I saw you worked with so and so..."
• I have no idea what value step 2ck holds, but I have received positive feedback on my step scores at most interviews, and they've always commented on my step 2 score.

 

[UnderPar22]

Here's my take on the regional bias thing, based on my experience, SDN and AM forums, and discussions with my classmates applying

West coast top tier - extremely competitive but receptive to strong OOS applicants and ties matter less
West coast mid tier - still very competitive but ties matter a lot

East Coast top tier - not as competitive as top tiers in the West but still very competitive, ties are not a big deal
East Coast mid tier - not sure about these. Not sure if the yield protect got to me because of stats or because of regional bias.

South top tier - seems to vary by program. Programs like Emory and Duke don't seem to have much bias but Wake seems to
South mid tier - yield protect is big here and it's a combination of numbers and ties

MW top tier - not sure about these as I only applied to 2 non-Chicago ones but ties seem to matter
MW mid tier - didn't apply to any/don't know much about these

What you posted is pretty much in line with my experience so far. For the midwest, ties matter more than for other regions. Most of my midwest interviews, including the top tier places, have usually been with other applicants either originally from the midwest, or with some other ties to the area. I'd imagine that most mid-tier places regardless of location interview candidates with ties to the region. The midwest might be unique in that the top (non-Chicago) programs also tend to interview regional candidates mostly.

 

[deleted103644]

It's not irrational, it's perfectly rational. As I said before, this is all game theory. The tenet of game theory is that IN THE ABSENCE OF COMMUNICATION people will act irrationally because they don't trust the other party.

Think about the classic prisoner's dilemma matrix. Two prisoners are locked away. If they both stay silent, they get 2 years. If they both inform on the other, they get 10 years. If one informs and the other stays silent, the informer goes free and the silent one gets 20 years. In this situation, in the absence of information, both prisoners are likely to get 10 years because they can't trust the other party. However, if you let the two prisoners talk, they'll both stay silent. You can postulate that you can't trust what the other party says,which is certainly a possibility, but both parties benefit from SOME communication, nonetheless.

Nash, J.F. Econometrica: Journal of the Econometric Society, 1950

Kreps et al, "Rational cooperation in the finitely repeated prisoners' dilemma"
Journal of Economic Theory, Volume 27, Issue 2, August 1982, Pages 245-252

Haha, yeah, took a couple of courses on game theory in college, quite familiar. You haven't fully thought out the implications of the match process, or alternatively are not clear on the way the algorithm works. Try mapping out a complete scenario, or take a look at the NRMP website where they map out an example for you.

Basically it comes down to this question: Is it ever in a program's best interest to rank a worse applicant higher because he shows more interest? (Given that the length and composition of the rank list would not change, just the order.)

The answer is no.

NB: The only time this changes if you start factoring in the value of the "bragging rights" of how far a program goes down on its list. A program could advertise that it is more desirable to applicants by saying it doesn't go down very far on its rank order list. However, this would be disingenuous if they are manipulating this statistic by ranking applicants by how much they desire that program rather than their desirability to that program.

 

[deleted103644]

This makes sense at the level of interview selection. As in programs will deliberately make an effort to invite people that they think will go there. Top programs not in Rochester or whatever will just interview the people with the most impressive applications for the most part. Most other programs have to use regional ties, whatever to construct an interview list.

Precisely.

But at the level of ranking, I firmly believe that programs rank in the order of who they want. It doesn't benefit them to behave in any other manner. If #1 through #10 are people they have little chance of getting for whatever reason, so be it -- but it doesn't harm them (other than pride) to try. Individual PDs or selection committees may irrationally buy into "i'll rank you #1 pinky swear" crap because it inflates ego to not go far on the rank list, but I think most programs don't really care.

Yup, although I think you're underestimating the "pride" factor, also that programs can use how far they go down on their lists as a selling point (although they really shouldn't). My bet would be this is only really true with inexperienced PDs or proud/insecure top 10 programs.

The more likely reason that programs may be receptive to "I'll rank you #1" e-mails with well-articulated explanations of why is that they want residents who fit well with the program and will be happy and not cause problems, which is more likely if prospective residents have ties binding to the area or other reasons that would cause them to be thankful, maximally productive worker bees for the gift of being at program X.

Valid point, but I think "fit" is better assessed in the interview and the fact that both program and applicant ranked each other to match. Just look at the forums to see the degree of rationalization after the fact most of us are capable of - in the end we're all happy to be in a radiology program, assuming it isn't one of the handful of malignant ones.

 

[2012mdc]

Haha, yeah, took a couple of courses on game theory in college, quite familiar. You haven't fully thought out the implications of the match process, or alternatively are not clear on the way the algorithm works. Try mapping out a complete scenario, or take a look at the NRMP website where they map out an example for you.

Basically it comes down to this question: Is it ever in a program's best interest to rank a worse applicant higher because he shows more interest? (Given that the length and composition of the rank list would not change, just the order.)

The answer is no.

NB: The only time this changes if you start factoring in the value of the "bragging rights" of how far a program goes down on its list. A program could advertise that it is more desirable to applicants by saying it doesn't go down very far on its rank order list. However, this would be disingenuous if they are manipulating this statistic by ranking applicants by how much they desire that program rather than their desirability to that program.

Not for just filling their program.

But if they're looking to have a class of residents that were high on the program (top 3) versus a stronger class who were lukewarm towards the program (not in top 10) then it does make a difference.

 

[drizzt3117]

..

 

[jahbrony]

.

 

[drizzt3117]

Three words, make it rain.

 

[2012mdc]

Three words, make it rain.

But when you think about it, the programs are the customers and us applicants are the strippers.

Application season is when the strippers walk around looking for customers to give a dance to.

Interviews are the lap dances. Customers will only get lap dances from a select group of strippers and these decisions are based on looks alone.

Matching is getting picked to go to the VIP room. Customers will choose an even more select group to go into a private room and these decisions are based on looks and what they had to offer during the dance.

And yes I think I've lived in Atlanta too long

 

[drizzt3117]

...

 

[SGuttenberg]

wow

 

[rem6775]

As much as I love you guys, this post made me laugh out loud quite a few times. I'm glad I've been sifting.

You guys should really just rank the programs you want to go to in the order you want to go to them in. Don't lie to places, be polite and flattering and everything will be fine.

 

[2012mdc]

.

 

[blackbird11384]

 

[drizzt3117]

..

 

[PokerDoc]

I finally cancelled at all the places I didn't intend to go to and I have my solid list of places that I am capping at 15.. I'm happy and I'm really excited! I think I'd be legitimately happy at any of my 15 'finalists' but I have a clear #1

 

[drizzt3117]

I think a number of people are misinterpreting or misconstruing my posts. I understand that the way the match works is that people rank their lists according to their preferences and programs do the same.

I'm not advocating that people should constantly contact programs. In fact, I think they should be contacting them once, when it comes time to make their rank order list. I understand the argument that any communication that doesn't say "you're #1 could be construed negatively, I just don't agree with it. In any case, like I said, we're all going to do what we think is best.

 

[Radiculous]

I actually agree with DrizzT to an extent. I think it has to just be done really carefully. But he's totally right that if you artfully say "here are the reasons why I would love to be at your program" as the ROL deadline nears, even if you don't explicitly say "you are my #1" it is very unlikely to hurt (but also fairly unlikely to help). I think it depends on one's individual level of comfort with contacting programs -- I tend toward the paranoid, conservative side where I don't want to come off as desperate or annoying so I'm only firing an e-mail to my top choice, and MAYBE another few at the very top of my list if I can craft a very compelling e-mail as to why I would be a great fit there. Phone calls? No way, too invasive. DrizzT, alternatively, is more candid and feels that it can only be beneficial to be totally up front with programs about where they stand, diplomatically. Neither approach is necessarily "wrong," and the response probably varies based on program. I guess my point is that SOME programs probably don't like being contacted all the time and may construe it as annoying, so why take the risk? But you could just as easily make an argument that making no contact is a "risk" because it's a perceived lack of interest potentially. So ultimately just do what you want.

 

[drizzt3117]

In the end we're all going to do what we think is best, I guess i'd be more upset about not having done enough to outweigh the risk of a program being offended by a letter stating the reasons why you think you're a good fit and would be thrilled to go there.

I actually agree with DrizzT to an extent. I think it has to just be done really carefully. But he's totally right that if you artfully say "here are the reasons why I would love to be at your program" as the ROL deadline nears, even if you don't explicitly say "you are my #1" it is very unlikely to hurt (but also fairly unlikely to help). I think it depends on one's individual level of comfort with contacting programs -- I tend toward the paranoid, conservative side where I don't want to come off as desperate or annoying so I'm only firing an e-mail to my top choice, and MAYBE another few at the very top of my list if I can craft a very compelling e-mail as to why I would be a great fit there. Phone calls? No way, too invasive. DrizzT, alternatively, is more candid and feels that it can only be beneficial to be totally up front with programs about where they stand, diplomatically. Neither approach is necessarily "wrong," and the response probably varies based on program. I guess my point is that SOME programs probably don't like being contacted all the time and may construe it as annoying, so why take the risk? But you could just as easily make an argument that making no contact is a "risk" because it's a perceived lack of interest potentially. So ultimately just do what you want.

 

[drizzt3117]

Did anyone catch the Alzheimer's talks today at RSNA? Fantastic!

 

[VIRads]

just when i was going to start posting here. i guess i will go to aunt minnie and use 2012reviews account.

 

[drizzt3117]

So I was amusing myself during my drive home from Chicago by reading through the first 10 pages of this thread... The emotional rollercoaster is palpable! We could have made a hbo hard knocks or something!

 

[cowme]

Haha, yeah, took a couple of courses on game theory in college, quite familiar. You haven't fully thought out the implications of the match process, or alternatively are not clear on the way the algorithm works. Try mapping out a complete scenario, or take a look at the NRMP website where they map out an example for you.

Basically it comes down to this question: Is it ever in a program's best interest to rank a worse applicant higher because he shows more interest? (Given that the length and composition of the rank list would not change, just the order.)

The answer is no.

NB: The only time this changes if you start factoring in the value of the "bragging rights" of how far a program goes down on its list. A program could advertise that it is more desirable to applicants by saying it doesn't go down very far on its rank order list. However, this would be disingenuous if they are manipulating this statistic by ranking applicants by how much they desire that program rather than their desirability to that program.

I think it's more in the program's best interest than you believe.

PD's want residents who they know WANT to be there because they want happy residents. Happy residents make better residents, and thus, a better program. If they have to sacrifice 260 step 1 students for 240 step 1 students who may be happier in their program, they will likely be better off. Who knows? Maybe the PD thinks that the 10 superstar applicants who DIDNT express interest have reservations about some aspect of the program (ie. location) that kept them from expressing more interest. They don't know, so they can only lean towards those who they know expressed interest.

In addition, PD's are people too. People like to feel wanted. People with big egos like to feel wanted even more. Even on a subliminal level, expressing more interest than others is more likely to put you at an advantage.

 

[PokerDoc]

I think it's more in the program's best interest than you believe.

PD's want residents who they know WANT to be there because they want happy residents. Happy residents make better residents, and thus, a better program. If they have to sacrifice 260 step 1 students for 240 step 1 students who may be happier in their program, they will likely be better off. Who knows? Maybe the PD thinks that the 10 superstar applicants who DIDNT express interest have reservations about some aspect of the program (ie. location) that kept them from expressing more interest. They don't know, so they can only lean towards those who they know expressed interest.

In addition, PD's are people too. People like to feel wanted. People with big egos like to feel wanted even more. Even on a subliminal level, expressing more interest than others is more likely to put you at an advantage.

Totally agree, BUT i still think some of the top top programs would still go for the statistics.

 

[drizzt3117]

This thread is a lot less interesting now. Much more blank space.

 

[Asp]

Would you rather date the 9 who only wants you for your money and will dump you as soon as someone richer comes along, or the 8 who truly loves you? Most people would choose the latter. Programs are no different. It makes for a healthier relationship.

 

[2012mdc]

So I was amusing myself during my drive home from Chicago by reading through the first 10 pages of this thread... The emotional rollercoaster is palpable! We could have made a hbo hard knocks or something!

Hard knocks is a great way to describe it. Every time an invite goes out it's like checking the cut list (I don't want to turn in my playbook)

This thread is a lot less interesting now. Much more blank space.

It will probably remain that way until ROLs are submitted. PMs are gonna be used a lot more

 

[deleted103644]

I think it's more in the program's best interest than you believe.

PD's want residents who they know WANT to be there because they want happy residents. Happy residents make better residents, and thus, a better program. If they have to sacrifice 260 step 1 students for 240 step 1 students who may be happier in their program, they will likely be better off. Who knows? Maybe the PD thinks that the 10 superstar applicants who DIDNT express interest have reservations about some aspect of the program (ie. location) that kept them from expressing more interest. They don't know, so they can only lean towards those who they know expressed interest.

In addition, PD's are people too. People like to feel wanted. People with big egos like to feel wanted even more. Even on a subliminal level, expressing more interest than others is more likely to put you at an advantage.

Valid point, but think it's not as important as you'd think. Just look at the post-match posts, for the most part people rationalize and defend their matched programs once they start. As for PDs being people too - of course they are, but they have to detach themselves from the match process a bit or it will become far too personal. (Better to be Michael than Sonny Corleone.)

Probably a bit more of an issue if someone from some sunny big city in Florida or California had a moment of temporary insanity and ranked Mayo highly - but in that case they'd probably still think they really wanted to go there until after the fact (once it started snowing).

Short of extreme climates,too many/too few people, separation from a significant other,or underlying mental health issues, most people will end up being happy with their match and adjust well and program directors are aware of this.

 

[2012mdc]

Valid point, but think it's not as important as you'd think. Just look at the post-match posts, for the most part people rationalize and defend their matched programs once they start. As for PDs being people too - of course they are, but they have to detach themselves from the match process a bit or it will become far too personal. (Better to be Michael than Sonny Corleone.)

Probably a bit more of an issue if someone from some sunny big city in Florida or California had a moment of temporary insanity and ranked Mayo highly - but in that case they'd probably still think they really wanted to go there until after the fact (once it started snowing).

Short of extreme climates,too many/too few people, separation from a significant other,or underlying mental health issues, most people will end up being happy with their match and adjust well and program directors are aware of this.

Since interview season is November through January there's a good chance that they would figure it out on interview day.

Or just not apply.

There are so many radiology programs so that unless you're just rolling in dough you can't apply to all of them.. Undesirable location because of climate/city size is one of the easiest things to use bc it doesn't require much research at all.

 

[VIRads]

Why apply to places you don't want to go to? I think it makes more sense just to rank places by the way you like them. Don't rank them based on where you think you will match. If that makes sense.

 

[Illusive Man]

Any word from BWH today?

 

[2012mdc]

Any word from BWH today?

I dont think anyone heard from them today. Must have pulled a NYU

 

[Gabujabu]

BID: rejected
MGH: rejected
BWH: interview!

This process really seems quite random.

 

[blackbird11384]

BID: rejected
MGH: rejected
BWH: interview!

This process really seems quite random.

Yep...

Interviews at NYU, Cornell, Mount Sinai, and Montefiore
Nothing, nada, zilch from Columbia....even after a letter of interest.

 

[Cochan]

A quick question for those applying for 11-12. Im a third year interested in Rads, however Im unsure about the TY/Intership aspect of many Rads Programs. Do you apply to both TY/Internships and Rads during the same time or would you first apply to TY/Interships then wait the year to apply to Rads Programs?
thanks

 

[bigdoc12]

A quick question for those applying for 11-12. Im a third year interested in Rads, however Im unsure about the TY/Intership aspect of many Rads Programs. Do you apply to both TY/Internships and Rads during the same time or would you first apply to TY/Interships then wait the year to apply to Rads Programs?
thanks

both at same time, your rads apps are really for the PGY2 yr (2013 for current applicants)

 

[Illusive Man]

Looks like the thread has gotten very quiet recently...

 

[PokerDoc]

Looks like the thread has gotten very quiet recently...

I dunno bout you guys but this is a time of very little to talk about.. Before it was all about getting interviews, and later it'll all be about ranking and then matching. Right now its just go on the interviews and chug along. I find the interview trail to be a grind and I have not much to say about it. I just wanna get through it and evaluate at the end of the journey.

 

[2012mdc]

I dunno bout you guys but this is a time of very little to talk about.. Before it was all about getting interviews, and later it'll all be about ranking and then matching. Right now its just go on the interviews and chug along. I find the interview trail to be a grind and I have not much to say about it. I just wanna get through it and evaluate at the end of the journey.

I agree. Also this past week was RSNA so nobody was really interviewing.

This week interviewing will pick up again but after what happened I know there won't be much discussion in this thread, at least not from me. PM's and the AM reviews account will suffice for getting other's opinions on programs.

 

[PokerDoc]

I agree. Also this past week was RSNA so nobody was really interviewing.

This week interviewing will pick up again but after what happened I know there won't be much discussion in this thread, at least not from me. PM's and the AM reviews account will suffice for getting other's opinions on programs.

What happened?

 

[2012mdc]

What happened?

The optho resident who came in the thread and revealed personal info about me and drizz (post got removed).

However minimal the risk is, it's just not worth it.