Radiology Future

[colbgw02]

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That's not even the end of it. A "reasonable" job is what job you could have gotten had you not done medicine. I have plenty of friends who made 100k+ right out of college and now make 250-400k with no extra school, no debt, etc.

Anecdotal evidence is...well, anecdotal.

What I find disturbing about this whole thread is that some guy comes around to warn people about things he's noticed from his perspective and he gets attacked by a bunch of jokers who want to believe that saying that the future is rosy for their field on an online forum makes it a reality. Especially when it is CLEAR that radiology is facing some of its biggest challenges yet. The bottom line is, I think that the appropriate response to the OP's post is not personal attacks, but acknowledgement that radiology is facing some serious threats and bringing up what can actually be done about it (Donating/getting involved with RADPAC or your local state radiology PAC, etc.). That's time better spent then attacking someone on studentdoctor.

Good points, but attacking people on a message board is nearing a national past time. Besides, this isn't exactly the first time this conversation has taken place on this forum. If someone comes on SDN to warn people of the dangers of a radiology career, then he needs to understand that his comments aren't exactly news breaking. At this point, the natural response is to be emotional rather than rational.

All of us going in to this field need to sack up and get involved instead of daydreaming that everything's going to be fine and dandy.

I don't see a lot of that. I see a handful of people predicting doom and gloom, with a bunch of other people - while acknowledging the challenges - who still want to be radiologists. Understandably, those people are tired of being told that they're making a mistake in choosing radiology. If their responses are hyperbolic, then it's probably because they're tired of defending their choice and their specialty from a lot of misinformation.

 

[bronx43]

Unless your friends are all Ivy grads that work on wall street, and moved through the ranks very quickly in 4 years during the worst recession in 75 years....I find this hard to believe.

Exactly. The only industry that allows for $250k+ four years out of college is high finance - ibanking (bulge bracket associates make $200-250k), hedge funds (depends on firm, but higher end could be 500-700k), private equity (300k), trading (sky is limit, and so is risk). I really can't think of anything else that would even come close to that kind of money. I mean, there are the rare examples of superstars at marketing or accounting firms that somehow shoot to a high position, but these are negligible in number. For high finance, you'd pretty much have to be from a top 20 school to have a shot at one of these jobs, especially private equity, hedge funds, and ibanking. Trading is a bit more accessible if you show that you have genius level IQ... which again, is rare as hell.

 

[bronx43]

+1 MRADS!

I'm not a doctor, medstudent or premed; but, why let CMS devalue your skill and what you do? Rise up and shrug atlas. The price paid for an imagining study should be the highest possible amount of money that the market can adsorb. If someone is older and they have assets - ask for those assets. If somone is younger and has years ahead of them - tell them to get a loan. The idea that insurance and the Gov can dictate what physicians earn is crazy. The compensation should be increasing every year at least at pace with inflation.

Dont frame things in the context of "well 300-400k is a good salary". Then you'll be working harder and faster every year to maintain that. Frame this whole health care debate as "Images are important and an accurate DX is critical for positive patient out comes. It is a valuable service that should be $XXXX per case."I'm saying you should be fighting for every dime on every case.

Work on getting rid of the GSR and change medicare to a payment assist instead of a cap.

Good luck!

Um, yea... no. It doesn't work like this. Health care isn't a free market. Trying to argue for free market pricing in a non-free market is nothing but price fixing. The system in place, in conjunction with legislation, allows for tight control of the influx of providers into said health care market, while the demand is essentially endless. To allow for a medical service to be "priced" by "whatever the market would bear" would be tantamount to the government limiting car production to only GM, and GM only produced enough cars to perfectly saturate the market. Given that scenario, how much would the average person pay for a car to get to work?

 

[MRads]

Exactly. The only industry that allows for $250k+ four years out of college is high finance - ibanking (bulge bracket associates make $200-250k), hedge funds (depends on firm, but higher end could be 500-700k), private equity (300k), trading (sky is limit, and so is risk). I really can't think of anything else that would even come close to that kind of money. I mean, there are the rare examples of superstars at marketing or accounting firms that somehow shoot to a high position, but these are negligible in number. For high finance, you'd pretty much have to be from a top 20 school to have a shot at one of these jobs, especially private equity, hedge funds, and ibanking. Trading is a bit more accessible if you show that you have genius level IQ... which again, is rare as hell.

This is true, almost all of the people I was referring to are in finance. Most people doing law, non-finance business, etc. are making half of that. On the other hand, there are a few I know making much much more.

And yes I went to a college that was ranked in the 20s, but if you got into medical school you could have probably gone to a top 20 school or transferred into one. My point is that if you're intelligent and hard working enough to be in med school you can probably get a high paying job, esp if you're working 80 hours a week like in residency. Anyway getting off topic

 

[bronx43]

This is true, almost all of the people I was referring to are in finance. Most people doing law, non-finance business, etc. are making half of that. On the other hand, there are a few I know making much much more.

And yes I went to a college that was ranked in the 20s, but if you got into medical school you could have probably gone to a top 20 school or transferred into one. My point is that if you're intelligent and hard working enough to be in med school you can probably get a high paying job, esp if you're working 80 hours a week like in residency. Anyway getting off topic

Dude, no. It's a commonplace but absurd idea that just because you got into medical school, you would have landed a HF, PE, or banking job. Perhaps, if you got into a top 20 medical school, it is more likely, but there are far too many medical schools with very average talent. I went to a top 20 undergrad as well, and we had a top 5 BBA program. I only knew one kid who managed to get a HF job straight out of college at GS SSG. And I can only name a small handful that landed a HF job after banking. A few more were able to get into private equity, but we're talking less than 5% of the class. And I can tell you every one of those kids was a frickin' superstar. I have friends in many med schools ranging from top 10 to unranked. The vast majority of these kids in the lower ranked schools cannot outcompete the superstars in our BBA class for those high finance jobs. Not even close. There were some that had the IQ and social ability to do so, but it was a small minority. And most kids in the highly ranked schools were probably on par with the high financiers. It would have been a 50/50 had they pursued a job in finance. And keep in mind that networking is far more important in business than medicine, so you can toss the socially awkward med students right out.

And to be honest, high finance is not a "reasonable" job. Anyone who knows anything about finance would tell you that it's complete hell. You think 80 hours in residency is hard? Try 100-120 as a banker sitting in front of a computer going through excel spreadsheets and typing up useless pitch books. Even in the toughest day in the hospital, it beats finance.

 

[EeePC1005PR]

Wow this all sounds pretty scary. I never quite thought about radiology from such pessimistic light.

Finding a job, low or high pay arn't my greatest concerns. Doctors in the Western countries generally get paid well enough to lead good lives. You'll always find a job if you are willing to go out a bit. I think radiology is pretty cool. Very precise, very influential diagnostically, increasingly interventionally also. Flexible life style, generally nice people to work with, the list goes on. I can't imagine a more suitable profession than radiology. Maybe if we can find a way to further reduce occupational radiation exposure, that'll be a bonus.

 

[I love NZ]

I'm new to SDN and am only pre-med but I'm a non-trad and the financial aspects of the decision to go to medical school weigh heavily upon me. So I do appreciate the input of drtompkins and MRads. I will be one completing a residency in 10 yrs - at least that's what I'm contemplating. Frankly, given the amount of time it takes to become qualified and the amount of money required, IN ADDITION to the lost income that I incur by not taking a job now in order to study, the numbers absolutely do not add up. I am looking at a 26% ROI if I get lucky and make 300K straight from completion of my fellowship (which is how likely???). If the job market is going to be that bad for that long, then I better understand that I am doing it because I want to and not because it is a financially sound decision. It SHOULD be a better financial decision because of the commitment it takes to become qualified, but it's not and I don't know how the market can sustain this.
I am investigating teleradiology because my husband wants to travel a LOT once we become financially independent. But our financial independence will have nothing to do with me going to medical school to pursue radiology - in fact, it puts us back.

 

[anbuitachi]

Unless your friends are all Ivy grads that work on wall street, and moved through the ranks very quickly in 4 years during the worst recession in 75 years....I find this hard to believe.

Not hard to believe at all. he did say plenty of friends, not all his friends. i come from a Ivy school and pretty much every business major friend i know of has high starting salaries. the ibankers do expect to make half a million/yr well before we even start working out of fellowship

 

[boogah]

food for thought. the average harvard MBA graduate is the highest paid MBA vs other MBAs. this data from BusinessWeek shows that the average graduate makes 4 million over 20 years including base pay and bonuses. That means that on average they make 200,000 every year. Now granted that that doesnt include options or stock, which could have significant value, this longer term data demystifies the "half million dollar salaries within a 3 years" stories that are spewed anecdotally here. Also, I acknowledge that these are a slightly different populations we are talking about here (ie, MBA grads [largely in finance] vs undergrads in finance) but the point is the same. grass is greener

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/content/may2010/bs20100521_243715.htm

 

[Asp]

And to be honest, high finance is not a "reasonable" job. Anyone who knows anything about finance would tell you that it's complete hell. You think 80 hours in residency is hard? Try 100-120 as a banker sitting in front of a computer going through excel spreadsheets and typing up useless pitch books. Even in the toughest day in the hospital, it beats finance.

Great post. Not to mention that even if you're bringing in the big bucks in finance, there's always someone making a hell of a lot more. The compensation structure in finance is a lot more pyramidal than in medicine, which is unique among the professions of being fairly egalitarian at the top.

Most of the people in finance are extremely jaded, because they realize they are generating no real value and just playing the system for financial gain.

I would say 95%+ of the people who think they could have made more money with less work outside medicine, are wrong.

 

[shark2000]

To me the way to go is academics.
You have a secure job, is not overwhelmed, have reasonable hours and workload and an exciting job. You are paid around 200K. You can have a decent life, esp if your spouse can make around 100K.
The problem with pp is not the income numbers. The problem is the private practice in US has changed into an assembly line. All the excitement and beauty of medicine has vanished. You do 90% bread and butter of boring daily medicine and refer the most challenging ones to big academic centers. This is the same all over.
A typical radiologist in pp reads 130 studies a day without thinking about it.
A typical GI doctor in pp does non-stop colonoscopies without even talking to patient.
A typical orthopod is pp rushes from knee replacement in OR to ER to put a traction on a fractured femur that he does not know anything about.
A typical ....


That is the reason most doctors in pp complain constantly. We all entered medical school for a lot of reasons and all of sudden we OURSELVES has changed our field which is really beautiful to a boring, day to day mundane work.
And don't think you are any different. First of all you can not find very few if any jobs that you can dictate the pace of your work even if you compromise a lot.
Don't think true medicine is the same as your big tertiary care referral center.
True world of medicine is this country has changed to a mundane, day to day boring BUSINESS, no different than just putting some sticker on patients and send them back home.

 

[deleted103644]

I would say 95%+ of the people who think they could have made more money with less work outside medicine, are wrong.

More money, definitely. With less work? Probably not.

Plenty of friends who went into finance earning $50-70k base with the potential to double it with bonuses straight out of college. A few who were actually smart and went to hedge funds made more. This was all prior to the bust though, so I'm sure it's rougher now. Most worked 100+ hour weeks though and were usually miserable.

 

[cliquesh]

Exactly. The only industry that allows for $250k+ four years out of college is high finance - ibanking (bulge bracket associates make $200-250k), hedge funds (depends on firm, but higher end could be 500-700k), private equity (300k), trading (sky is limit, and so is risk). I really can't think of anything else that would even come close to that kind of money. I mean, there are the rare examples of superstars at marketing or accounting firms that somehow shoot to a high position, but these are negligible in number. For high finance, you'd pretty much have to be from a top 20 school to have a shot at one of these jobs, especially private equity, hedge funds, and ibanking. Trading is a bit more accessible if you show that you have genius level IQ... which again, is rare as hell.

Engineering can pay well. I made low 100's two years after college, and I have some friends in chemical (oil) and computer engineering that make more than 200. Not that it really matters.

 

[Kitra101]

I hate to even bring this up, but this is worth mentioning. Has anyone browsed the other specialty boards? There is a very common theme. Even derm saw an increase in unfilled spots. I do not know what is going on, but things are changing drastically. I need to review the stats more, but there is a lot of change that seems to be going on over the last few years, perhaps culminating with the match data. To most people out in residency or in PP, the match may be something long forgotten. However, I think this is probably a strong indicator of trends. People say this is all about cycles, but I think something bigger is happening.

Where do you all think medicine is heading?

I am concerned that we as a profession have fractured ourselves so much that we lack a unified voice and have opened ourselves to takeover and a complete loss of autonomy. The media has been attacking us from every angle non-stop for years now. This campaign against doctors has only intensified most recently (CNN with their attack on radiology and attempted attack on derm and IM).

I think there needs to be a MAJOR shift in medicine NOW. I know this is being brought up on AM, but our leadership is old and is not looking out for the long term of radiology and the profession of medicine in general. We need new leadership - smarter leadership. We need people who have a long term vested interest. I am not sure how to make this happen, but if social networking could bring down national governments in the Arab spring movement, we could replace our leadership and establish a new profession with new goals which protect our profession.

I am not saying we need to all have 500K jobs with 8 weeks vacation, but I am saying that if this is the way medicine is going where we are expected to work harder and get less pay, we should have some power at the bargaining table. We should not be expected to work the same historic hours docs work. We should not be expected to incur the massive educational debt that most US grads have incurred. We should not have such liability anymore either.

We all went into medicine because we love it. I know there are people that say "I went into it for the money" or "I went into it for the respect" but the reality is that all of these people know that there are MUCH easier ways to obtain these things.

I am concerned that we have no voice at all who cares about the long term goals. Our lack of a strong leadership has allowed for us to force extend our training further, take on further debt, work longer hours, accept more liability, allow midlevels to come in and steal our work, allowed hospital executives to take over and profit from our work, etc etc. Moreover, our complete lack of intelligent leadership has allowed the media to destroy our reputation. Forget the CNN investigation - how about their constant accusation that our health care costs are high, but our longevity is worse than other countries. I think the data used to come to that conclusion needs to be examined. We could probably try to control for confounding factors for example. If we have an obesity epidemic and are compared to a nation that has much less obesity (and the related mortality), our mean life span data will suffer. However, to say MEDICINE as a profession has failed is a farce and we all know this. We all know that we cannot force lifestyle changes on people. No one brings these issues to light because we are all too busy fighting for whatever scraps managed care, government and hospital administers will give us.

Suggestions please. We have all worked so hard for our future in this great profession - lets take back medicine!

 

[Medstudentquest]

I hate to even bring this up, but this is worth mentioning. Has anyone browsed the other specialty boards? There is a very common theme. Even derm saw an increase in unfilled spots. I do not know what is going on, but things are changing drastically. I need to review the stats more, but there is a lot of change that seems to be going on over the last few years, perhaps culminating with the match data. To most people out in residency or in PP, the match may be something long forgotten. However, I think this is probably a strong indicator of trends. People say this is all about cycles, but I think something bigger is happening.

Where do you all think medicine is heading?

I am concerned that we as a profession have fractured ourselves so much that we lack a unified voice and have opened ourselves to takeover and a complete loss of autonomy. The media has been attacking us from every angle non-stop for years now. This campaign against doctors has only intensified most recently (CNN with their attack on radiology and attempted attack on derm and IM).

I think there needs to be a MAJOR shift in medicine NOW. I know this is being brought up on AM, but our leadership is old and is not looking out for the long term of radiology and the profession of medicine in general. We need new leadership - smarter leadership. We need people who have a long term vested interest. I am not sure how to make this happen, but if social networking could bring down national governments in the Arab spring movement, we could replace our leadership and establish a new profession with new goals which protect our profession.

I am not saying we need to all have 500K jobs with 8 weeks vacation, but I am saying that if this is the way medicine is going where we are expected to work harder and get less pay, we should have some power at the bargaining table. We should not be expected to work the same historic hours docs work. We should not be expected to incur the massive educational debt that most US grads have incurred. We should not have such liability anymore either.

We all went into medicine because we love it. I know there are people that say "I went into it for the money" or "I went into it for the respect" but the reality is that all of these people know that there are MUCH easier ways to obtain these things.

I am concerned that we have no voice at all who cares about the long term goals. Our lack of a strong leadership has allowed for us to force extend our training further, take on further debt, work longer hours, accept more liability, allow midlevels to come in and steal our work, allowed hospital executives to take over and profit from our work, etc etc. Moreover, our complete lack of intelligent leadership has allowed the media to destroy our reputation. Forget the CNN investigation - how about their constant accusation that our health care costs are high, but our longevity is worse than other countries. I think the data used to come to that conclusion needs to be examined. We could probably try to control for confounding factors for example. If we have an obesity epidemic and are compared to a nation that has much less obesity (and the related mortality), our mean life span data will suffer. However, to say MEDICINE as a profession has failed is a farce and we all know this. We all know that we cannot force lifestyle changes on people. No one brings these issues to light because we are all too busy fighting for whatever scraps managed care, government and hospital administers will give us.

Suggestions please. We have all worked so hard for our future in this great profession - lets take back medicine!

I have to say that I agree with this 100%. I too am concerned regarding our job prospects, our futures, careers, etc. Not just in rads, but in general. More and more our salaries are stagnant or dropping, while other profession salaries are going up and up.
VP of marketing make more than doctors, engineers are making what peds and FM docs are making, and specialties are now being attacked for example.

It seems that our profession has lost all respect and trust. It's almost as if we are supposed to work harder, longer, for less and less pay, and as if, if we wantt decent compensation, we are "greedy." I agree that it's important to unify as physicians as a whole and be able to write our own destinies to a certain extent as well.

For specialties like rads, things were great a few years ago, and now the future is uncertain and kind of scary. Reducing the excessive number of residencies I think is important for one, and advocacy on our behalf is also essential! Unfortunately unless medicine truly tanks and we kind of start from scratch, I'm afraid nothing will happen. When fewer and fewer people go into medicine, or the quality of applicants is so low that people's health are at serious risk is the only time when we will see changes.

 

[DrBowtie]

I have to say that I agree with this 100%. I too am concerned regarding our job prospects, our futures, careers, etc. Not just in rads, but in general. More and more our salaries are stagnant or dropping, while other profession salaries are going up and up.
VP of marketing make more than doctors, engineers are making what peds and FM docs are making, and specialties are now being attacked for example.

It seems that our profession has lost all respect and trust. It's almost as if we are supposed to work harder, longer, for less and less pay, and as if, if we wantt decent compensation, we are "greedy." I agree that it's important to unify as physicians as a whole and be able to write our own destinies to a certain extent as well.

For specialties like rads, things were great a few years ago, and now the future is uncertain and kind of scary. Reducing the excessive number of residencies I think is important for one, and advocacy on our behalf is also essential! Unfortunately unless medicine truly tanks and we kind of start from scratch, I'm afraid nothing will happen. When fewer and fewer people go into medicine, or the quality of applicants is so low that people's health are at serious risk is the only time when we will see changes.

Indeed, I plan on being active with RadPac.

 

[deleted103644]

I agree, but think that the era of 9-5 PP jobs in radiology paying $500k is definitely over.

Radiology must be a 24/7 specialty and economies of scale will push everything into hospital-based or large national group practices. If we try to outsource the studies we don't want to do (eg nighthawk, etc), we will lose them.

Reimbursements will probably continue fall, but we should get additional coverage for liabilty + tort reform to cover it (if the expected average liabilty of a study becomes less than the reimbursement, it will stop being done).

And radiology needs to keep innovating or it will die, so more radiologists should get involved in research.

 

[bronx43]

The increase in unfilled spots in rads probably was due to decreased number of rads applicants (and/or decreased quality), while programs maintained their selectivity and ranking habits. This likely lead to under-ranking, thus increased number of unfilled positions.

IM, on the other hand, had only 50 open spots across the country out of a total of 5000. (Historically, there have been hundreds.) General surgery only had 3. The shift we see is probably a reversion back to the basics, as more medical students are seeing the reforms on the horizon.

As far as the decreasing reimbursements and level of respect, it'll probably continue to trend down with time. There's really not much the medical community can do about it. The push for reforms is too great, and doctors get zero public sympathy. The truth of the matter is that medicine can slip a WHOLE lot more before it would compromise its undergrad applicant pool. This is especially true if, at some point, the government subsidizes medical education.

 

[Medstudentquest]

The increase in unfilled spots in rads probably was due to decreased number of rads applicants (and/or decreased quality), while programs maintained their selectivity and ranking habits. This likely lead to under-ranking, thus increased number of unfilled positions.

IM, on the other hand, had only 50 open spots across the country out of a total of 5000. (Historically, there have been hundreds.) General surgery only had 3. The shift we see is probably a reversion back to the basics, as more medical students are seeing the reforms on the horizon.

As far as the decreasing reimbursements and level of respect, it'll probably continue to trend down with time. There's really not much the medical community can do about it. The push for reforms is too great, and doctors get zero public sympathy. The truth of the matter is that medicine can slip a WHOLE lot more before it would compromise its undergrad applicant pool. This is especially true if, at some point, the government subsidizes medical education.

So based on your statement, we should all be lucky if we have a job in the future, and we'll make 120k for 12+ years of education? Why would anyone go into medicine then?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

So based on your statement, we should all be lucky if we have a job in the future, and we'll make 120k for 12+ years of education? Why would anyone go into medicine then?

Makes me think back to that personal statement I worked so hard to write to get into med school... Lol no mention of salary or debt. I'm just going to hope there Is a light at the end of the tunnel.

-R

 

[Kitra101]

Number 1: Accountability is key. Mistakes made by midlevels should be reported to attorneys and they should be sued. Hospitals who choose to take short cuts to increase executive pay should be held accountable. If they choose to fill real doctor spots with midlevels, they should be held accountable. While I know it is nice to have midlevels take the "boring cases" as was proposed in the EM forum, this opens the door to people attempting to replace docs, decrease doc reimbursement and have the health care reform people come at real doctors even harder. NP, PA, etc does NOT = MD and those who advocate that it should, should be liable for the same kind of blood thirsty frivolous law suits as real doctors deal with.

Number 2: Re: radiology. I agree that radiologists should step it up and cut out the outsourcing. I also think that radiologists should unite practices under a centralized group to push back against the hospitals. Right now, the hospitals have all the power. Read up on the RFP article on AM. The only way to accumulate bargaining power is to speak for a larger group.

Number 3: Supply and demand. Close off programs that do not fill for X number of consecutive years. This will force those who are close to filling to reduce the numbers that they take and will force those who continuously do not fill the majority of their slots to close. A glut of any kind of employee makes supply much greater than demand and leaves those involved in the workforce fighting for scraps (or jobless).

Number 4: Replace ALL of the people currently working in high level positions at ABR. These people are older, clearly do not have the intelligence to protect our profession and need to be replaced with people who have a vested interest in the long term success of our profession.

Number 5: Research. I completely agree with the idea that this needs to be greatly emphasized in radiology. Our field has enjoyed the fruit of massive growth on the back of research. While times are hard and research funding is tough to come by, this is crucial to our success.

Number 6: Hard work. We have long been looked at as a lazy group of docs which has made us vulnerable to turf battle loss. We need to NOT outsource, take calls and retain the fruits of our research. No more giving up things such as the cath lab to cardiology.


Just a few thoughts...any other ideas? Any ideas where to begin to make some of these things a reality?

 

[Medstudentquest]

Makes me think back to that personal statement I worked so hard to write to get into med school... Lol no mention of salary or debt. I'm just going to hope there Is a light at the end of the tunnel.

-R

🙂 While I love medicine, and have no loans whatsoever to pay back (had full ride for undergrad and have already paid back med school loans), I chose medicine not just because I found it awsome, but obviously the prestige and pay is also important.

If i'm going to be in training for 12+ years, I would expect decent compensation and some respect in what I'm doing. Also, the sacrifice, committment, and time that getting through med school and residency takes is huge so if there is no way that quality people will go into medicine if we are making what trash men/women make.

 

[bronx43]

So based on your statement, we should all be lucky if we have a job in the future, and we'll make 120k for 12+ years of education? Why would anyone go into medicine then?

Student loans would likely be subsidized or tuitions capped if salaries drop that low. And the US may adopt the model of the rest of the world in that medical school and undergrad are integrated into 5 or 6 years. The ultimate message here is this - it's not that the American way is the norm for the rest of the world and that American doctors are slipping below the mean in terms of compensation or respect. It's that American doctors were initially far above the world mean and are now trending back down towards it.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

🙂 While I love medicine, and have no loans whatsoever to pay back (had full ride for undergrad and have already paid back med school loans), I chose medicine not just because I found it awsome, but obviously the prestige and pay is also important.

If i'm going to be in training for 12+ years, I would expect decent compensation and some respect in what I'm doing. Also, the sacrifice, committment, and time that getting through med school and residency takes is huge so if there is no way that quality people will go into medicine if we are making what trash men/women make.

By all means I understand, unfortunately it is one of those things I surely didn't know going into medicine. It's not a typical job and requires so much time, money, and energy. if I could do it all over again, I would just play that baseball video game all day and win a million dollars pitching a no-hitter.

-R

 

[Medstudentquest]

By all means I understand, unfortunately it is one of those things I surely didn't know going into medicine. It's not a typical job and requires so much time, money, and energy. if I could do it all over again, I would just play that baseball video game all day and win a million dollars pitching a no-hitter.

-R

But that's the thing! We deserve better. We've all invested tons of time, energy, $, etc., and we save people almost on a daily basis in one way or another. Are they really going to replace doctors? Of course not, and we need to be appreciated to a reasonable extent. Just like nurses, we should unionize for one. No hospital could survive or do anything without doctors. The least we deserve is some respect and fair compensation.

 

[bronx43]

But that's the thing! We deserve better. We've all invested tons of time, energy, $, etc., and we save people almost on a daily basis in one way or another. Are they really going to replace doctors? Of course not, and we need to be appreciated to a reasonable extent. Just like nurses, we should unionize for one. No hospital could survive or do anything without doctors. The least we deserve is some respect and fair compensation.

This is gold... seriously hilarious. I'm going to send this to all my non-MD friends and we'll all have a good laugh.

 

[Medstudentquest]

This is gold... seriously hilarious. I'm going to send this to all my non-MD friends and we'll all have a good laugh.

I'm glad you find me hilarious, but I am not sure what's so funny about it. 😕

 

[deleted103644]

I'm glad you find me hilarious, but I am not sure what's so funny about it. 😕

The PR alone on that would be horrible. You think people hate wall street? What would the response be to doctors complaining about $200k salaries and going on strike, putting patients in danger?

For out debt load, our salaries are not unreasonable, but they are still very high relative to what the rest of society receives. And no one "deserves" a given salary no matter how much they spent on their education.

If you want work hour restrictions, it would be better to frame it as a patient safety issue.

 

[bronx43]

I'm glad you find me hilarious, but I am not sure what's so funny about it. 😕

It's hilarious, because of the overt entitlement. I'm sorry, but you don't deserve anything just because you completed post-graduate education, and/or additional training. There is zero reason why those things beget any specific level of compensation. That is intrinsically determined by the market, and the parameters which control that market. And there is no reason why anyone should give you more respect just because. Respect is earned on an individual basis. Physicians, as a whole, are already more respected than the vast majority of professions out there.

^ Johnnydrama gets it.

 

[Medstudentquest]

It's hilarious, because of the overt entitlement. I'm sorry, but you don't deserve anything just because you completed post-graduate education, and/or additional training. There is zero reason why those things beget any specific level of compensation. That is intrinsically determined by the market, and the parameters which control that market. And there is no reason why anyone should give you more respect just because. Respect is earned on an individual basis. Physicians, as a whole, are already more respected than the vast majority of professions out there.

^ Johnnydrama gets it.

I disagree with you on multiple accounts, but I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[bronx43]

I disagree with you on multiple accounts, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Get out in the real world, kid. If you think you DESERVE anything because of any level of education or training, you're in for a real treat.

 

[shark2000]

Totally agree with bronx43.

General notion is society is that doctors are over-paid. It is not important whether they are wrong or right. The fact is even the lowest paid doctors are making 2 times the average society. People do not care whether you did 20 years of school or 2 years. They look at the numbers.
If you doubt it, go to some of these forums and read general public's opinion. Recently there was a CNN article on hem/onc doctors or cardiologists who had to close their practice. Nobody showed any sympathy and they even called them overpaid because they make more than 200K.
The argument that decreasing salaries will effect the quality of care is BS. Income does not have anything to do with responsibility. The only thing that may happen with decreased pay is less working hours that in fact will increase the quality of work.
I myself do not agree that this is a positive move, but it seems that we are doomed to accept a semi-socialized or socialized model like Europe.

 

[cowme]

yea, I'm sorry, there are plenty of people who go through just as much training and don't get anything close to doctors. Pharmacists, PhDs, Professors, Physical Therapists, for instance. The only reason doctors tend to feel so entitled is because they spent the first 30 years getting whatever they wanted (college of their choice, medical school largely of their choice, preferred specialty) by virtue of grades and test performance. Then they get out in the real world and realize that made them feel so entitled in the first place (being a good student) is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I think the entitlement has a ton to do with physician dissatisfaction nowadays

 

[lionelsoe]

yea, I'm sorry, there are plenty of people who go through just as much training and don't get anything close to doctors. Pharmacists, PhDs, Professors, Physical Therapists, for instance. The only reason doctors tend to feel so entitled is because they spent the first 30 years getting whatever they wanted (college of their choice, medical school largely of their choice, preferred specialty) by virtue of grades and test performance. Then they get out in the real world and realize that made them feel so entitled in the first place (being a good student) is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I think the entitlement has a ton to do with physician dissatisfaction nowadays

Pharmacists, PhDs, Physical Therapists, just as much training as MDs LOL
Do you know how many Pharmacists, PhDs, Physical Therapists,take MCAT to be MDs ,You are funny

 

[dude1344]

you act like the mcat is a test of intelligence or this tremendous test.

 

[bronx43]

Pharmacists, PhDs, Physical Therapists, just as much training as MDs LOL
Do you know how many Pharmacists, PhDs, Physical Therapists,take MCAT to be MDs ,You are funny

You do realize that your first and second statements are complete non-sequiturs, right?

 

[Asp]

Anyone who thinks radiology or any branch of medicine is hard work has never done any work involving manual labor in their lives (construction, farming, etc). That is to say they have never done any real work.

No one in medicine is underpaid. Your value transference exceeds your value creation.

We're just mad we aren't as overpaid as the white collar criminals who run Wall Street. They are the kings of value transference.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Anyone who thinks radiology or any branch of medicine is hard work has never done any work involving manual labor in their lives (construction, farming, etc). That is to say they have never done any real work.

No one in medicine is underpaid. Your value transference exceeds your value creation.

We're just mad we aren't as overpaid as the white collar criminals who run Wall Street. They are the kings of value transference.

You forgot the entertainment industry, sports and being a prince or duke of something, or a reality star!

--R

 

[Asp]

You forgot the entertainment industry, sports and being a prince or duke of something, or a reality star!

--R

All fields with winner-take-all dynamics. In medicine if you're 80% as good as the top dog you'll make 100% of the money. In many other fields, if you're only 80% as good you're out of a job. That's what makes medicine special. Y'all should be grateful.

 

[fun8stuff]

yea, I'm sorry, there are plenty of people who go through just as much training and don't get anything close to doctors. Pharmacists, PhDs, Professors, Physical Therapists, for instance. The only reason doctors tend to feel so entitled is because they spent the first 30 years getting whatever they wanted (college of their choice, medical school largely of their choice, preferred specialty) by virtue of grades and test performance. Then they get out in the real world and realize that made them feel so entitled in the first place (being a good student) is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I think the entitlement has a ton to do with physician dissatisfaction nowadays

while i agree with your overall message that in general there is a sense of entitlement among med students and residents and that extent of education does not determine salary, your first point is not true at all. The professions listed go through 6-8 years of training (MD/DOs complete a minium of 11 years... .radiolgoy: 14 years)... and the medical course work/path is much more arduous than those professions. In the end, they do not have the near the level of responsibility of MD/DOs. But I agree: great student does not always equal great business person or physician. Salary is should be determined by perceived value.

 

[cowme]

while i agree with your overall message that in general there is a sense of entitlement among med students and residents and that extent of education does not determine salary, your first point is not true at all. The professions listed go through 6-8 years of training (MD/DOs complete a minium of 11 years... .radiolgoy: 14 years)... and the medical course work/path is much more arduous than those professions. In the end, they do not have the near the level of responsibility of MD/DOs. But I agree: great student does not always equal great business person or physician. Salary is should be determined by perceived value.

True, but the 50-60k per year rads residents get is on par with starting salaries in those other fields.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

True, but the 50-60k per year rads residents get is on par with starting salaries in those other fields.

50k.... Somebody is a baller! I get what you are saying, but all those other professions get to come in at 9 and leave at 5 with weekends, holidays and no board exams.

-R

 

[fun8stuff]

50k.... Somebody is a baller! I get what you are saying, but all those other professions get to come in at 9 and leave at 5 with weekends, holidays and no board exams.

-R

retail pharmacists start at least at $100k and many only need 6 yrs of schooling. i almost went that route... but couldnt stand the work. i suspect physical therapists are $80-100k starting, but dont know for sure.

 

[cowme]

50k.... Somebody is a baller! I get what you are saying, but all those other professions get to come in at 9 and leave at 5 with weekends, holidays and no board exams.

-R

I'm just saying you can't equate the years of residency training to the years of college/medical school because you are making money. Residency is more like an entry level job with a crappy salary, that quadruples (at minimum) after 4-6 years.

 

[Vindicatus]

I'm really surprised at some of the comments here. The media hates us. The public thinks we make too much, but so what? Everyone wants to make more money for whatever it is they do for a living. That's human nature! Do any of you honestly think that the public's perception that "doctors make too much money" is going to change just because some of us are saying, "well, we really do make enough money. It's ok. No, really, I don't think I deserve to be paid more for what I do."

It's like that commercial for that credit card with Jimmie Fallon and the little girl. "Who doesn't want more money?" Then she throws the Cheerios at him. We're acting like the little girl with the Cheerios.

No one is going to give you any kind of brownie points because you're satisfied with what you make as a physician. Once you settle, there will just be further and further pushes to decrease your reimbursement even more. It will never stop until you work for free.

Medstudentquest is radical, and his idea is unpopular. It goes against everything that is indoctrinated into us during medical school, but while his ideas are radical, they are the right attitude to have. We're in the predicament that we are in as far as reimbursements because we have the mentality that it's somehow wrong to look out for our own best interests for once. We shouldn't settle for less so willingly. It's absurd!

 

[deleted103644]

I'm really surprised at some of the comments here. The media hates us. The public thinks we make too much, but so what? Everyone wants to make more money for whatever it is they do for a living. That's human nature! Do any of you honestly think that the public's perception that "doctors make too much money" is going to change just because some of us are saying, "well, we really do make enough money. It's ok. No, really, I don't think I deserve to be paid more for what I do."

It's like that commercial for that credit card with Jimmie Fallon and the little girl. "Who doesn't want more money?" Then she throws the Cheerios at him. We're acting like the little girl with the Cheerios.

No one is going to give you any kind of brownie points because you're satisfied with what you make as a physician. Once you settle, there will just be further and further pushes to decrease your reimbursement even more. It will never stop until you work for free.

Medstudentquest is radical, and his idea is unpopular. It goes against everything that is indoctrinated into us during medical school, but while his ideas are radical, they are the right attitude to have. We're in the predicament that we are in as far as reimbursements because we have the mentality that it's somehow wrong to look out for our own best interests for once. We shouldn't settle for less so willingly. It's absurd!

If there are people out there willing to do your job for less with equal or better qualifications, you will be unemployed. No one is saying to act against your best interest, but price-fixing will never work in the long run.

 

[bronx43]

If there are people out there willing to do your job for less with equal or better qualifications, you will be unemployed. No one is saying to act against your best interest, but price-fixing will never work in the long run.

👍👍👍
Nice to see there are still people up in here that knows how the world works.

 

[surftheiop]

A quick anecdote for the people thinking they could have just done finance instead of medschool, I went to an Ivy that has a lot of people going into finance afterward. I had around a 3.5 GPA and got accepted to a couple top 15 medschools and got huge scholarships from smaller schools. Many of my friends had like 3.8+ GPA and finance related internships during summers and only like 1 out of 10 of those guys actually got a high paying finance job and thats probably b/c his dad is a big name I-banker. Not only do you need to go to one of about 10 schools to have a chance at big salary finance jobs, you need to do really well at the school (or have family connections to a big bank).

 

[Asp]

I think in all fields you can get to the top by being a true superstar. Medicine is one of the few fields where you can get to the top being mediocre.

 

[whatabro]

I think in all fields you can get to the top by being a true superstar. Medicine is one of the few fields where you can get to the top being mediocre.

👍