Radiology Future

[shark2000]

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I think in all fields you can get to the top by being a true superstar. Medicine is one of the few fields where you can get to the top being mediocre.

The difference between the stellar, the good, the mediocre and the sloppy one in other fields in huge. In medicine the difference between them is marginal.
The stellar lawyer is well known to public and probably makes 5 Mil a year. A stellar CEO makes 10 Mil a year. On the other hand a sloppy lawyer or CEO barely makes more than 40K a year.
On the other hand the difference between the most and the least successful doctor is barely more than 4-5x. Probably a very successful orthopod makes 700-1 mil . On the other hand a sloppy orthopod can still make 200K.
As a result the difference between best and worse in medicine is marginal.

At the end of the day, Medicine is a field that makes smart and hard-working people miserable as they do not find themselves different than many sloppy ones out there. On the other hand it is a dream field for mediocre people as they are joining a field that can easily ignore a lot of their deficiencies.

That is the reason that you find a lot of smart intelligent doctors nagging constantly. Medicine itself is a drag to your progress. It does not let you use your talents in their entirety and it kills your innovation.
You can easily train a below average IQ to be the best doctor. A monkey can be the best doctor. It is all about repeating the same **** over and over.

 

[cowme]

The difference between the stellar, the good, the mediocre and the sloppy one in other fields in huge. In medicine the difference between them is marginal.
The stellar lawyer is well known to public and probably makes 5 Mil a year. A stellar CEO makes 10 Mil a year. On the other hand a sloppy lawyer or CEO barely makes more than 40K a year.
On the other hand the difference between the most and the least successful doctor is barely more than 4-5x. Probably a very successful orthopod makes 700-1 mil . On the other hand a sloppy orthopod can still make 200K.
As a result the difference between best and worse in medicine is marginal.

r.

Your estimate is WAY too high. For the same amount of work (and both being in PP), the difference in salary will never be more than 10-20%, and this is usually only from location or bonus differences. An orthopod who makes 750k does so because he works his ass off. One who makes 250k does so because he has 4 day weeks and 6 hour days.

I would argue that some of the best doctors in the world make even LESS than some of the crappiest doctors. Look at your idols in med school; they are are all academic attendings with amazing pedigrees who make nearly 1/4 to 1/2 of what their Private Practice counterparts do who trained at a 100 bed hospital

 

[shark2000]

Your estimate is WAY too high. For the same amount of work (and both being in PP), the difference in salary will never be more than 10-20%, and this is usually only from location or bonus differences. An orthopod who makes 750k does so because he works his ass off. One who makes 250k does so because he has 4 day weeks and 6 hour days.

I would argue that some of the best doctors in the world make even LESS than some of the crappiest doctors. Look at your idols in med school; they are are all academic attendings with amazing pedigrees who make nearly 1/4 to 1/2 of what their Private Practice counterparts do who trained at a 100 bed hospital

OK.You are proving me more.
The difference between the income of the highest and lowest paid doctor in any specialty is barely more than 2 times. For example a typical ortho makes 400K in pp and a typical ortho makes 200K. I don't want to play with the numbers.
My whole argument is that the range in medicine is much narrower in medicine compared to almost any other field. It is a trade off for job security you see in medicine.

 

[cowme]

Oh for sure. I thought you were implying that skill is correlated with pay. Because that's dead wrong. You can do 100 shoddy procedures and make more than someone who did 50 of the same procedure, but really took their time to ensure a great outcome.

 

[copes]

Gosh this thread is depressing.

 

[yappy]

I know there are head winds against medicine in general due to issues we've already discussed on this thread - but how low do you realistically predict physician salaries will go in the US in 2012 dollars?

It would be unpresidented if physician wages started to drop significantly wouldnt it? Do you think RN's will still make 30 bucks an hour? Hospital admins making 100k+? If physicians represent 10% of health care dollars (and they are the most important aspect) how much can really be cut?

 

[shark2000]

Physician salaries will go down because people think we are overpaid. It does not help to anything. It will save some money that will be wasted or will be shifted towards other groups including PAs and NPs. Their pay may not increase but they are increasing in number unbelievably. even if u decrease their salaries, their total cost will be huge directly and indirectly. I can clearly say they increase the cost of system. Many I indicated studies are ordered by them.
this problem started with physician's themselves.

 

[Medstudentquest]

Physician salaries will go down because people think we are overpaid. It does not help to anything. It will save some money that will be wasted or will be shifted towards other groups including PAs and NPs. Their pay may not increase but they are increasing in number unbelievably. even if u decrease their salaries, their total cost will be huge directly and indirectly. I can clearly say they increase the cost of system. Many I indicated studies are ordered by them.
this problem started with physician's themselves.

I agree and find this very puzzling. Why are we paying midlevels close to what PCPs get paid?! If we are trying to cut costs, shouldn't we pay PCPs a bit more and get more people interested in primary care vs having midlevels who can't do the job on their own? So we pay the midlevel 100K + the PCP 160K or something like that, so that's 260k vs. for still one set of healthcare providers vs. simply increasing interest and pay for PCPs and having less of a shortage.

I also don't understand what the gov and the public want. They hate waiting, they are ok with med students going into debt and years of education, they don't want us getting paid anything, but they want the dr to be caring, and kind, and all this stuff, and they also want to be able to sue us for millions? Really?

Like I have said many times-if we don't unite and really get our point across, no one will fare well, including patients. I was reading the path forum and seeing how people say they will practice 10 years and they are out. You know what, I was having this same discussion the other day with someone-I personally don't think would practice more than 15-20 years, I already have a business going that's starting to be profitable, no one sues me, I get to stay home if I want, etc. I don't want to be dealing with nonsense when I'm older.

If nurses can unionize and demand that they get paid "what they deserve" (big eyeroll there), why can't we unite, and say hey-we should get paid what we deserve. What kind of industry works in an environment where their pay goes down, vs. up? None. Who says congrats! Now you will be making less than the year before. It's absolute nonsense. PA/NP are just a huge part of the problem, and they have been created in part because physicians have not had the guts to say hey, this is a no go. Midlevels are dumping all over us and most physicians are just smiling and taking it. I don't get it really. I don't get it why inaction is the rule of the land, I don't get why if we are trying to cut costs we are paying midlevels the salaries that they are getting paid, and why the gov thinks that's ok.

I have a gap year now for example and will starting working at a place where they were hiring for a PA/NP type person. Given that obviously I have an MD they hired me to work in the PA/NP role. I was offered 100k. As a resident, I wasn't even pulling 50K when I was an intern. This job requires no weekends, no call, 8-5, no presentations, etc. I think it seems like a great gig. While my peds/FP/IM colleagues are getting paid what-150K or something like that? Doesn't make sense.

Why are we in the dumps when it comes to our value as physicians? Are we saying that NP/PA are more valuable than us?! We are creating a substandard system here.

 

[deleted103644]

I agree and find this very puzzling. Why are we paying midlevels close to what PCPs get paid?! If we are trying to cut costs, shouldn't we pay PCPs a bit more and get more people interested in primary care vs having midlevels who can't do the job on their own? So we pay the midlevel 100K + the PCP 160K or something like that, so that's 260k vs. for still one set of healthcare providers vs. simply increasing interest and pay for PCPs and having less of a shortage.

The mid levels are filling the demand for PCPs at a lower cost. If a NP can do 3/4 of the job for 1/2 the price, that makes complete financial sense for a hospital to hire more. Definitely makes more financial sense than paying PCPs more.

I'm all for more political involvement on the part of physicians, but if you think physician unions are the way to go, you're really mistaken. (Resident unions on the other hand do make sense - they really get abused and need a stronger voice.)

 

[Medstudentquest]

The mid levels are filling the demand for PCPs at a lower cost. If a NP can do 3/4 of the job for 1/2 the price, that makes complete financial sense for a hospital to hire more. Definitely makes more financial sense than paying PCPs more.

I'm all for more political involvement on the part of physicians, but if you think physician unions are the way to go, you're really mistaken. (Resident unions on the other hand do make sense - they really get abused and need a stronger voice.)

Why do you think that physician unions don't make sense? And midlevels are not just involved in filling the gap in primary care-they are involved in anesthesia and even derm now too!

 

[Shnurek]

Germany and France are the models for healthcare. Europe has a way better system. America is a clusterf*ck of people screwing others for $$$. Yes, our system is less socialized and there are less rules here. You get your MD at age 21 in Europe and there are no midlevels like optometrists, PAs, NPs etc. Here, you just have to do what you have to do to get by.

Why do you think that physician unions don't make sense? And midlevels are not just involved in filling the gap in primary care-they are involved in anesthesia and even derm now too!

And don't mention LASIK and scalpel eye surgery by us optometrists 🙂 In America, there are few concrete barriers. You are free to follow your pursuit of happiness.

 

[Medstudentquest]

Germany and France are the models for healthcare. Europe has a way better system. America is a clusterf*ck of people screwing others for $$$. Yes, our system is less socialized and there are less rules here. You get your MD at age 21 in Europe and there are no midlevels like optometrists, PAs, NPs etc. Here, you just have to do what you have to do to get by.




And don't mention LASIK and scalpel eye surgery by us optometrists 🙂 In America, there are few concrete barriers. You are free to follow your pursuit of happiness.

Are you an optometry student? I don't really consider optometrists midlevels really, or at least have not thought about them that way, but no offense, I think they are rather redundant. In my opinion, you really only need ophthalmologists or optometrists-you shouldn't have both, and from what I hear about about the optometry field, it's not doing too hot now due to lack of volume. I also think there are limits and scopes of practice because it's important to prevent unqualified people from being money hungry and doing things they should not and harm patients. When I see people doing things that are way out of their scope, it's mind blowing. For example, I would never go see a dermatologist for liposuction, no matter how trained they say they are, I would go to a cosmetic surgeon, because that's their expertise. In the same way, I would go see an orthopedic surgery if I needed bone surgery of any kind not a podiatrist (I made that mistake in the mistake, and now I have permanent pain!) I think it's foolish/unwise to think that anyone should be allowed to do certain procedures. In the same way, (and I have no idea whether you guys are licensed/allowed to practice lasik and eye surgery-are you??), I would never, EVER go to an optometrist for either of these services. I think it's risky and unwise. I would go to an ophthalmologist. There is a reason why different people practice in different things. I don't think optometrists are qualified to do either of these procedures, or high level surgery of any type for that matter. I have only used optometrists to get eyeglass prescriptions and that's it, and even then I have found that many of them sucked.

Further, it's annoying that everyone wants the pay/prestige/whatever of being a doctor yet few people really want to go through what it takes to become one. I don't think it makes sense. If you wanted to do lasik and eye surgery, why did you not choose to go to medical school and become an ophthalmologist? I think that's what you should have done. There is a reason why ophthalmologists go through med school and residency adn why they are trained/qualified to do high level procedures like that. You chose to go to optometry school, so you should do what you are trained to do, no? Or is it that the high pay of these procedures is mostly what's making optometrists want to be allowed to do them? I'm sorry but I think there is a reason why if you guys have limits as to the scope of your practice. You are not ophthalmologists, you are optometrists. Just be happy to stick to the scope of your practice. I'm not trying to be harsh or anything, I just find it absurd that everyone is desperately fighting to be able to do the high paying procedures when they shouldn't. Next, we'll see ophthalmologists wanting to do lipo!! 😱

 

[Shnurek]

Are you an optometry student? I don't really consider optometrists midlevels really, or at least have not thought about them that way, but no offense, I think they are rather redundant. In my opinion, you really only need ophthalmologists or optometrists-you shouldn't have both, and from what I hear about about the optometry field, it's not doing too hot now due to lack of volume. I also think there are limits and scopes of practice because it's important to prevent unqualified people from being money hungry and doing things they should not and harm patients. When I see people doing things that are way out of their scope, it's mind blowing. For example, I would never go see a dermatologist for liposuction, no matter how trained they say they are, I would go to a cosmetic surgeon, because that's their expertise. In the same way, I would go see an orthopedic surgery if I needed bone surgery of any kind not a podiatrist (I made that mistake in the mistake, and now I have permanent pain!) I think it's foolish/unwise to think that anyone should be allowed to do certain procedures. In the same way, (and I have no idea whether you guys are licensed/allowed to practice lasik and eye surgery-are you??), I would never, EVER go to an optometrist for either of these services. I think it's risky and unwise. I would go to an ophthalmologist. There is a reason why different people practice in different things. I don't think optometrists are qualified to do either of these procedures, or high level surgery of any type for that matter. I have only used optometrists to get eyeglass prescriptions and that's it, and even then I have found that many of them sucked.

Further, it's annoying that everyone wants the pay/prestige/whatever of being a doctor yet few people really want to go through what it takes to become one. I don't think it makes sense. If you wanted to do lasik and eye surgery, why did you not choose to go to medical school and become an ophthalmologist? I think that's what you should have done. There is a reason why ophthalmologists go through med school and residency adn why they are trained/qualified to do high level procedures like that. You chose to go to optometry school, so you should do what you are trained to do, no? Or is it that the high pay of these procedures is mostly what's making optometrists want to be allowed to do them? I'm sorry but I think there is a reason why if you guys have limits as to the scope of your practice. You are not ophthalmologists, you are optometrists. Just be happy to stick to the scope of your practice. I'm not trying to be harsh or anything, I just find it absurd that everyone is desperately fighting to be able to do the high paying procedures when they shouldn't. Next, we'll see ophthalmologists wanting to do lipo!! 😱

Yes, I am. I am happy doing glasses and contacts. I also enjoy doing medical eye care. It takes 6 months to learn how to prescribe glasses/contacts. That is why we push into medical eye care. We don't just do glasses/contacts for 4 years after college. Ophthalmology is cutting their residency programs because of oversupply. Optometrists are opening new schools with 30% increase in jobs in the next 10 years or so as more people are realizing that the younger you are when you specialize in something, in our case eyes, the better of a clinician you usually are. I'll agree that there are some quack optometrists that got trained 30 years ago when no medical eye care was taught in optometry schools but the new ODs coming out now are very qualified.

I just made a striking example about optometrists doing surgery. It is really only the case in 2 states right now. Oklahoma and Kentucky. However, almost in every other state we can prescribe topical eye drops, oral medications, diagnose eye diseases, get onto medical insurance panels, practice autonomously under our own licenses, and perform minor "surgeries" such as corneal and conjunctival foreign body removal, eye lash removal, and tear duct occlusion, irrigation and dilation. Even with ophthalmology disliking us, even they are realizing that we are pretty damn qualified: http://www.revophth.com/content/c/33272/ They are considering letting us do parts of the laser cataract surgery. Times are a changin'.

 

[shark2000]

Yes, I am. I am happy doing glasses and contacts. I also enjoy doing medical eye care. It takes 6 months to learn how to prescribe glasses/contacts. That is why we push into medical eye care. We don't just do glasses/contacts for 4 years after college. Ophthalmology is cutting their residency programs because of oversupply. Optometrists are opening new schools with 30% increase in jobs in the next 10 years or so as more people are realizing that the younger you are when you specialize in something, in our case eyes, the better of a clinician you usually are. I'll agree that there are some quack optometrists that got trained 30 years ago when no medical eye care was taught in optometry schools but the new ODs coming out now are very qualified.

I just made a striking example about optometrists doing surgery. It is really only the case in 2 states right now. Oklahoma and Kentucky. However, almost in every other state we can prescribe topical eye drops, oral medications, diagnose eye diseases, get onto medical insurance panels, practice autonomously under our own licenses, and perform minor "surgeries" such as corneal and conjunctival foreign body removal, eye lash removal, and tear duct occlusion, irrigation and dilation. Even with ophthalmology disliking us, even they are realizing that we are pretty damn qualified: http://www.revophth.com/content/c/33272/ They are considering letting us do parts of the laser cataract surgery. Times are a changin'.

If it is only limited to prescribing glasses/contacts that is fine.
But Noway anybody should be allowed to prescribe oral medications or diagnose eye diseases other than an MD.
It is interesting how you call yourself "specialized".
If somebody wants to be doctor, they have to go to medical school. Otherwise, I disapprove anybody else practicing medicine in anyway. For any field, even the most small specialized ones you have to have a broad knowledge that is obtained in medical school.
Can that uveitis be due to sarcoidosis? What about tuberculosis? What do you know about them? Can you at least screen the patients for these disorders?
The whole medical system is going down the drain in this country if we do not stop these stupid movements.

 

[Shnurek]

If it is only limited to prescribing glasses/contacts that is fine.
But Noway anybody should be allowed to prescribe oral medications or diagnose eye diseases other than an MD.

Dude, you are 30 years late to the party.

Lets see what the DOs think about your statement. Should have stopped them first. As for those systemic diseases, I will learn all about any systemic diseases that have ocular manifestations. Don't worry hoss 🙂

 

[copes]

I go to the optometrist for vision checks but there is no way I am going to one if I think there is something wrong with my eyes. I am sure there are plenty of smart and motivated people in optometry school who just decided that the effort to reward ratio of going to med school was not worth it. Good for them if they are smart enough and work hard enough to achieve the skill and knowledge level of the average ophthomologist.

 

[DoctwoB]

I go to the optometrist for vision checks but there is no way I am going to one if I think there is something wrong with my eyes. I am sure there are plenty of smart and motivated people in optometry school who just decided that the effort to reward ratio of going to med school was not worth it. Good for them if they are smart enough and work hard enough to achieve the skill and knowledge level of the average ophthomologist.

The two groups have different but complementary skill sets. I would never get a surgical procedure done on my eyes by an optometrist (which some are pushing for), but to think that someone with 4 years of training focused on the eyes can't handle your conjunctivitis, retinopathy checks, Dx of glaucoma or cataracts or ARMD, etc. is just ridiculous.

 

[copes]

The two groups have different but complementary skill sets. I would never get a surgical procedure done on my eyes by an optometrist (which some are pushing for), but to think that someone with 4 years of training focused on the eyes can't handle your conjunctivitis, retinopathy checks, Dx of glaucoma or cataracts or ARMD, etc. is just ridiculous.

Well that may be the case but my optometrist works at costco and I don't trust him managing my glaucoma.

 

[Shnurek]

Well that may be the case but my optometrist works at costco and I don't trust him managing my glaucoma.

Why would you go to costco to get your eyes checked anyway?

 

[Shnurek]

The two groups have different but complementary skill sets. I would never get a surgical procedure done on my eyes by an optometrist (which some are pushing for), but to think that someone with 4 years of training focused on the eyes can't handle your conjunctivitis, retinopathy checks, Dx of glaucoma or cataracts or ARMD, etc. is just ridiculous.

Thank you. And optos are really only pushing for laser surgery privileges because we learn all the optics behind lasers didactically. The scalpel surgeries are not really our domain.

 

[colbgw02]

Why would you go to costco to get your eyes checked anyway?

To take advantage of their sale on a jumbo box of prescription eyeglasses. Duh.

 

[copes]

To take advantage of their sale on a jumbo box of prescription eyeglasses. Duh.

Yup they have good deals on contact lenses and eyeglasses.

 

[Shnurek]

Yup they have good deals on contact lenses and eyeglasses.

You can buy those online for just as cheap or cheaper but just ask that your OD puts your pupillary distance on your Rx or you can measure it yourself. But I wouldn't ever get my eyes checked at those commercial mills. The worst optometry students usually go into commercial. Also ones that have no entrepreneurial drive aka losers.

 

[copes]

You can buy those online for just as cheap or cheaper but just ask that your OD puts your pupillary distance on your Rx or you can measure it yourself. But I wouldn't ever get my eyes checked at those commercial mills. The worst optometry students usually go into commercial. Also ones that have no entrepreneurial drive aka losers.

ok good to know.

 

[shark2000]

The two groups have different but complementary skill sets. I would never get a surgical procedure done on my eyes by an optometrist (which some are pushing for), but to think that someone with 4 years of training focused on the eyes can't handle your conjunctivitis, retinopathy checks, Dx of glaucoma or cataracts or ARMD, etc. is just ridiculous.

It is stupid to think an ophthalmologist can not do the job of an optometrist. So calling it complementary skills is really stupid.
You are stupid to think having 4 years of focused training is good enough to be able to take care of your eye. Many many eye problems can be the manifestation of systemic diseases. An optometrist is not qualified to deal with retinopathy because they do not have the knowledge of disease processes including diabetes, collagen vascular disease, ...
Show me an optometrist who knows about multiple sclerosis....
Whoever is protecting midlevels to have more freedom is stupid.

 

[colbgw02]

Seven+ years on SDN, and I'm still surprised when someone runs with the modicum of truth in a post clearly intended to be a joke.

 

[shark2000]

Dude, you are 30 years late to the party.

Lets see what the DOs think about your statement. Should have stopped them first. As for those systemic diseases, I will learn all about any systemic diseases that have ocular manifestations. Don't worry hoss 🙂

You are stupid to think that you can learn about systemic diseases without doing med school.
If some stupid person let you prescribe oral medications, it does not mean it is the correct think to do. Oral med should only be prescribed by MD. You do not understand the drug-drug interactions, side effects of the medications and the drug induced diseases.

It is stupid that almost exclusively happens in US. If someone wants to practice medicine they have to go to medical school. Having an optometrist prescribe narcotics or oral Tetracycline is stupid. You guys try to fulfill some of your inferiority complex towards doctors by doing these shortcuts. Good luck, but even if you are allowed to prescribed ALL oral medications you are no way a doctor. You do not have the knowledge, the skill and the prestige of a doctor and your inferiority complex will be with you your life-time.

 

[deleted103644]

When did this become the optometry forum? As long as my eyes work well enough to read images, that's the extent of my interest in them...

Could you guys take this somewhere else? This is a radiology forum.

 

[cbtk18]

Agreed.

 

[Shnurek]

You are stupid to think that you can learn about systemic diseases without doing med school.
If some stupid person let you prescribe oral medications, it does not mean it is the correct think to do. Oral med should only be prescribed by MD. You do not understand the drug-drug interactions, side effects of the medications and the drug induced diseases.

It is stupid that almost exclusively happens in US. If someone wants to practice medicine they have to go to medical school. Having an optometrist prescribe narcotics or oral Tetracycline is stupid. You guys try to fulfill some of your inferiority complex towards doctors by doing these shortcuts. Good luck, but even if you are allowed to prescribed ALL oral medications you are no way a doctor. You do not have the knowledge, the skill and the prestige of a doctor and your inferiority complex will be with you your life-time.

lol I don't have an inferiority complex, on the other hand:

I'll be prescribing oral medications including narcotics and performing some minor surgical procedures all the while having a malpractice insurance rate 1/10th of an ophthalmologist while you can yell at me about how I don't understand stuff just because I will have an O instead of an M behind my name 🙂 We take the same pharmacology course. O and don't forget all medical insurances will reimburse us the same rate as an ophtho in 2014 when the Harkin Amendment gets implemented (Medicare already does) so go yell at people in Washington D.C. or accept it like a man.

Haha...unless optoms have started lobbying to read their own CT/MRs of the orbit 😛

just curious do any of you get images that need interpretation from any ODs?


Sorry for hijacking the thread.

 

[Radonkulous]

If this is what medicine has become, it's safe to say the government has really destroyed the profession. Blame also falls on physicians.

In any case, back to the topic at hand.

 

[Shnurek]

If this is what medicine has become, it's safe to say the government has really destroyed the profession. Blame also falls on physicians.

Yup, I'm just choosing the path of least resistance. Kind of like electricity and most humans.

 

[shark2000]

Yup, I'm just choosing the path of least resistance. Kind of like electricity and most humans.

Agree that this should go to optometry forum, not here.

If you don't have inferiority complex, do not come to radiology forum. Go back to your ******ed mid-level optometry forum. That M really matters.

The reason I commented on his stupid posts, is that more than 100 times I have seen stupid studies ordered by these weird ******ed mid levels going beyond their means.

The reason you went to optometry is your lack of IQ to enter med school. If you think you took a pharmacology course and you are qualified to prescribe, you are stupid.
The least people know the more confident they are.

I am not replying to any other of your posts, as it is a great waste of time to argue with a stupid, low IQ under-educated dumba.. With full of inferiority complex.

Go back to your opto forum.

 

[shark2000]

Going back to the stolen discussion.
Doctors income will decrease, but not as much as people claim. The whole system will adjust itself.
Still you will be able to make a comfortable living. You will never become rich to the point that you can quit working after a few years, though also in the past it was also not the case at least for the vast majority.
As a result, the more important issue will come-by. You are choosing a job that you will live with it and spend most of your time the rest of your life or at least till age of 60-65. Try to choose something that you at least not hate it, or you like it. Life is not as long as you think to choose something that you hate.
Regarding many mid levels that somebody mentioned. I doubt they can do 2/3 of the job of a PCP in the long run. Again, currently it is the time that they are popular. I think in 10 years you will see much less demand for them. Don't forget that once cardiology APRNs were considered One of the most important jobs of the future of cardiology in the era that cardiology offices were booming and inpatient dedicated cardiologist was difficult to find. All of a sudden the whole system turned and now as most of cardiologists are hospital employees there is not any room for these APRNs (many had Phds and called themselves doctors) in large scale.

 

[Shnurek]

Agree that this should go to optometry forum, not here.

If you don't have inferiority complex, do not come to radiology forum. Go back to your ******ed mid-level optometry forum. That M really matters.

The reason I commented on his stupid posts, is that more than 100 times I have seen stupid studies ordered by these weird ******ed mid levels going beyond their means.

The reason you went to optometry is your lack of IQ to enter med school. If you think you took a pharmacology course and you are qualified to prescribe, you are stupid.
The least people know the more confident they are.

I am not replying to any other of your posts, as it is a great waste of time to argue with a stupid, low IQ under-educated dumba.. With full of inferiority complex.

Go back to your opto forum.

You got that right 🙂 👍

 

[docshop12]

Agree that this should go to optometry forum, not here.

If you don't have inferiority complex, do not come to radiology forum. Go back to your ******ed mid-level optometry forum. That M really matters.

The reason I commented on his stupid posts, is that more than 100 times I have seen stupid studies ordered by these weird ******ed mid levels going beyond their means.

The reason you went to optometry is your lack of IQ to enter med school. If you think you took a pharmacology course and you are qualified to prescribe, you are stupid.
The least people know the more confident they are.

I am not replying to any other of your posts, as it is a great waste of time to argue with a stupid, low IQ under-educated dumba.. With full of inferiority complex.

Go back to your opto forum.

wait a sec... aren't you a radiologist? What medicines are you prescribing on a regular basis?

I think you overestimate the difficulty and complexity in prescribing an oral medicine. A vast majority of PCPs could not explain the side effects of every drug they give and will only state ones that are tested commonly on board exams or ones they have personally seen. Also optometrists are prescribing based on standardized recommendations. It's not that hard to do or learn... A lot of prescriptions docs do (as I assume you would have learned in med school but likely forgot since you don't see patients) is based on the comfort level a provider has with a drug and not on overarching recommendations.

oh and when a patient comes in with first episode or typical uveitis you don't do a whole work-up for a systemic cause like sarcoid unless exam findings on slit lamp (which an optometrist is perfectly capable of doing and interpreting) suggest a systemic cause, which they will know. Generally you treat and if there is recurrence or it doesn't improve the patient is sent to ophtho. Optometrists aren't a group as a whole looking to gain inroads into ophtho. If anything there is great redundancy in ophtho as they do the exact same thing as opto most of the time but they charge a lot more.

oh and you're crazy if you think just because you have a MD that makes you have a higher IQ than an OD. I know tons and tons of med students who I am surprised they pass on a regular basis. These same students will be MDs one day.

you should learn to respect your colleagues. But I guess that doesn't matter much for some radiologists. And I'm not sure why you complain about "normal" exams since you get paid regardless. If there are more restrictions on what imaging exams can be ordered to decrease the total number of exams that would vastly reduce the needed number of radiologists and subsequently their pay.

 

[deleted103644]

wait a sec... aren't you a radiologist? What medicines are you prescribing on a regular basis?

I think you overestimate the difficulty and complexity in prescribing an oral medicine. A vast majority of PCPs could not explain the side effects of every drug they give and will only state ones that are tested commonly on board exams or ones they have personally seen. Also optometrists are prescribing based on standardized recommendations. It's not that hard to do or learn... A lot of prescriptions docs do (as I assume you would have learned in med school but likely forgot since you don't see patients) is based on the comfort level a provider has with a drug and not on overarching recommendations.

oh and when a patient comes in with first episode or typical uveitis you don't do a whole work-up for a systemic cause like sarcoid unless exam findings on slit lamp (which an optometrist is perfectly capable of doing and interpreting) suggest a systemic cause, which they will know. Generally you treat and if there is recurrence or it doesn't improve the patient is sent to ophtho. Optometrists aren't a group as a whole looking to gain inroads into ophtho. If anything there is great redundancy in ophtho as they do the exact same thing as opto most of the time but they charge a lot more.

oh and you're crazy if you think just because you have a MD that makes you have a higher IQ than an OD. I know tons and tons of med students who I am surprised they pass on a regular basis. These same students will be MDs one day.

you should learn to respect your colleagues. But I guess that doesn't matter much for some radiologists. And I'm not sure why you complain about "normal" exams since you get paid regardless. If there are more restrictions on what imaging exams can be ordered to decrease the total number of exams that would vastly reduce the needed number of radiologists and subsequently their pay.

ODs are not colleagues, they're the people you buy contacts from in the mall.

Please leave this forum.

 

[Shnurek]

ODs are not colleagues, they're the people you buy contacts from in the mall.

Please leave this forum.

You are thinking of opticians. Do your research. Our class has a 3.5 average undergraduate matriculant GPA with the same prerequisites as medical school.

And docshop12, thank you for being open minded and informed.

 

[docshop12]

ODs are not colleagues, they're the people you buy contacts from in the mall.

Please leave this forum.

so I'm a 4th year student btw. And you if don't see others in health care, any aspect, as colleagues and you treat them with disrespect as shark is doing (on the internet, yes, but hear me out...) then you will have a long long lonely annoying poor and unsuccessful career. Radiologists are totally dependent on referrals. All aspects of the entire field require them. If other docs or mid levels think you're a jerk they'll send their studies to someone else (if at all possible - and it is in private practice which is a great majority of medicine). If the hospital you contract with doesn't like you they'll find a new group. If the group you work for thinks you're an @ss they'll replace you with the one of the other 10 rads looking for that job. If you're in IR and your referrals don't like you for whatever reason, usually a personality thing, they'll send their patient to someone else.


most ophtho guys are not doing big time surgeries or any surgeries really beyond lasik, cataracts, and lens replacement. A majority of their time is spent prescribing glasses just like optometrists, but usually for more complex cases. Most common eye disease like an episode of uveitis can be treated by FM if the doc feels comfortable. But I wouldn't expect a person who knows nothing about either ophto or opto to understand that.

 

[deleted103644]

You are thinking of opticians. Do your research. Our class has a 3.5 average undergraduate matriculant GPA with the same prerequisites as medical school.

And docshop12, thank you for being open minded and informed.

You're right, I'm being intentionally obnoxious. Please leave.

 

[colbgw02]

This thread got really obnoxious in a hurry.

 

[Radonkulous]

Is this the radiology forum or the optometry forum? I guess midlevels have invaded the rads turf too. Zing!

 

[Shnurek]

This thread got really obnoxious in a hurry.

lol its partially my fault, the OD forum gets boring so I hop on others.

 

[deleted103644]

lol its partially my fault, the OD forum gets boring so I hop on others.

Harass the eye docs. Begone.

 

[thecgrblue]

wait a sec... aren't you a radiologist? What medicines are you prescribing on a regular basis?

I think you overestimate the difficulty and complexity in prescribing an oral medicine. A vast majority of PCPs could not explain the side effects of every drug they give and will only state ones that are tested commonly on board exams or ones they have personally seen. Also optometrists are prescribing based on standardized recommendations. It's not that hard to do or learn... A lot of prescriptions docs do (as I assume you would have learned in med school but likely forgot since you don't see patients) is based on the comfort level a provider has with a drug and not on overarching recommendations.

oh and when a patient comes in with first episode or typical uveitis you don't do a whole work-up for a systemic cause like sarcoid unless exam findings on slit lamp (which an optometrist is perfectly capable of doing and interpreting) suggest a systemic cause, which they will know. Generally you treat and if there is recurrence or it doesn't improve the patient is sent to ophtho. Optometrists aren't a group as a whole looking to gain inroads into ophtho. If anything there is great redundancy in ophtho as they do the exact same thing as opto most of the time but they charge a lot more.

oh and you're crazy if you think just because you have a MD that makes you have a higher IQ than an OD. I know tons and tons of med students who I am surprised they pass on a regular basis. These same students will be MDs one day.

you should learn to respect your colleagues. But I guess that doesn't matter much for some radiologists. And I'm not sure why you complain about "normal" exams since you get paid regardless. If there are more restrictions on what imaging exams can be ordered to decrease the total number of exams that would vastly reduce the needed number of radiologists and subsequently their pay.

Very suspicious that you have 3 posts, joined this month, and are pushing a trolls agenda.

Reported.

 

[docshop12]

Very suspicious that you have 3 posts, joined this month, and are pushing a trolls agenda.

Reported.

lol reported for what exactly? You think I'm Shnurek? you pre-meds are so smart. you have me all figured out! eh whatever. I'm not him and any mod would be able to tell that.

And anyway I don't think he was really trolling. How is it trolling to say in America you can follow your pursuit of happiness (his first post in this thread)? Is it only because he's an opto student posting in a rads forum? Didn't know there was a rule against that. And if so the same could be said for a pre-med saying he reported me out of a hunch and then posting about it in the same thread...

Shnurek is right in that there are no laws defining what any one person is allowed to do. If a FM doc is comfortable doing endoscopies after training he can do so. There is no accreditation service exam for them that you must pass before you do it. Same goes for lots of other things. I was just defending the idea of civility among colleagues and deriding the arrogance of some posters here. It was other rads residents/fellows/med students bashing opto largely out of pure ignorance.

anyway I'm done with this topic. that should make johnnydrama happy at least.

 

[deleted103644]

lol reported for what exactly? You think I'm Shnurek? you pre-meds are so smart. you have me all figured out! eh whatever. I'm not him and any mod would be able to tell that.

And anyway I don't think he was really trolling. How is it trolling to say in America you can follow your pursuit of happiness (his first post in this thread)? He's right in that there are no laws defining what any one person is allowed to do. If a FM doc is comfortable doing endoscopies after training he can do so. There is no accreditation service exam for them that you must pass before you do it. Same goes for lots of other things. I was just defending the idea of civility among colleagues and deriding the arrogance of some posters here. It was other rads residents/fellows/med students bashing opto largely out of pure ignorance.

anyway I'm done with this topic. that should make johnnydrama happy at least.

Ecstatic.

 

[Shnurek]

Very suspicious that you have 3 posts, joined this month, and are pushing a trolls agenda.

Reported.

Dude, he/she is a hidden soldier fighting for optoms. Its def not me or anyone I know. Like I said before, America lets all of us enter the pursuit of happiness. There shouldn't be people keeping others down by bigotry and bashing. Just be the best Doctor you can be and people will come to you. Don't worry about creating concrete walls that will only get broken down anyway.

 

[shark2000]

wait a sec... aren't you a radiologist? What medicines are you prescribing on a regular basis?

I think you overestimate the difficulty and complexity in prescribing an oral medicine. A vast majority of PCPs could not explain the side effects of every drug they give and will only state ones that are tested commonly on board exams or ones they have personally seen. Also optometrists are prescribing based on standardized recommendations. It's not that hard to do or learn... A lot of prescriptions docs do (as I assume you would have learned in med school but likely forgot since you don't see patients) is based on the comfort level a provider has with a drug and not on overarching recommendations.

oh and when a patient comes in with first episode or typical uveitis you don't do a whole work-up for a systemic cause like sarcoid unless exam findings on slit lamp (which an optometrist is perfectly capable of doing and interpreting) suggest a systemic cause, which they will know. Generally you treat and if there is recurrence or it doesn't improve the patient is sent to ophtho. Optometrists aren't a group as a whole looking to gain inroads into ophtho. If anything there is great redundancy in ophtho as they do the exact same thing as opto most of the time but they charge a lot more.

oh and you're crazy if you think just because you have a MD that makes you have a higher IQ than an OD. I know tons and tons of med students who I am surprised they pass on a regular basis. These same students will be MDs one day.

you should learn to respect your colleagues. But I guess that doesn't matter much for some radiologists. And I'm not sure why you complain about "normal" exams since you get paid regardless. If there are more restrictions on what imaging exams can be ordered to decrease the total number of exams that would vastly reduce the needed number of radiologists and subsequently their pay.

1. On average an MD has higher IQ than an optometrist. If you doubt it, you are stupid.
2. I have not seen patients routinely other than my mammo and IR rotations. Prescribing many of pain medications including narcotics is day to day practice of our IR. If you doubt it, let me assure you I am more than qualified for it.

3. If you are jealous of radiologists or you are brainwashed by some stupid surgeon (read loser ) in med school, you are very stupid to express it in a RADIOLOGY forum. You are a stupid medical student or a troll to think we encourage more and more studies. The last time I tried to block a CT, all of a sudden patient's history changed in 10 minutes to an essential history for doing the study.
4- You are so stupid that you do not understand one of the most challenging parts of radiology is the border between a normal and abnormal study.

5- who was talking about radiology itself here ? You are an obvious troll here or a stupid mentally ******ed. If you loath radiology (which is obvious from your post) do not come here.

 

[deleted103644]

Dude, he/she is a hidden soldier fighting for optoms. Its def not me or anyone I know. Like I said before, America lets all of us enter the pursuit of happiness. There shouldn't be people keeping others down by bigotry and bashing. Just be the best Doctor you can be and people will come to you. Don't worry about creating concrete walls that will only get broken down anyway.

Why is it that people keep using the word "bigotry" regarding mid levels? No one is born an optometrist. There are no federal statutes requiring equal opportunity for optometrists vs ophthalmologists.

And why do you keep posting here? Go away, and ideally please delete your posts.