radiology questions

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medstudent2005

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howdie

i'm a med student who has no idea what field to go into. lately i have become interested in radiology because, well, i finely learned how to read a film. it was fun...in a nerdy kind of way. i like the lifestyle and income too, well, who wouldn't. however, there is something that kind of bothers me about radiology. I keep hearing "do you really need to go to medical school for radiology?" or the other day a surgery intern said to me that radiology would be a "waste of a good student." it seems to me that ppl don't think of radiologist as "real doctors." i was wondering what radiologists think about this? do you feel like you know alot of medicine? i dont know that much about radiology, but it seems to be like if you're mainly studying images and not having much patient contact, you would forget the pathophysiology of many disease, their treatments, etc (this one pharm rep told me that a radiologist once asked him what Lipitor was...that's kind of scary.) My thing is, i like radiology as it is, but i don't want to forget medicine too. I am interested in interventional radiology, which has more patient interaction and stuff like that, but i also like diagnostic radiology. well, anyway, any input would be appreciated, and i in no way meant to discredit radiology...i just hear all of these things and i wanted to check it out with real radiologists before jumping to any conclusions.

adios

NT
 
Radiologists mostly have nothing to do with pharmacologic treatments. The only drugs they need to know (at most) are analgesics, sedatives, local and regional anesthetics, a few opioids, basic antibiotics, basic antiallergics, drugs of coagulation and thrombolysis, and ACLS meds. They don't rountinely prescribe outpatients meds. Not too many ophtho, ENT, neurosurg, urologist, psychiatrists, pathologists know much about lipid-lowering drugs either. Lipitor vs. Zocor vs. Ezetimibe vs. niacin vs. cholestyramine is the domain of other specialties. The other day, I called an ophtho guy and said his patient has bilateral DVT. He asked me what the treatment was. I told him to start him on a heparin IV drip and start coumadin and gave him the doses and how to follow them by PTT and INR. He then asked me if he should double the dose of the heparin, since it's "bilateral DVT". Funny, but true. So, you see that most doctors don't know what's outside of their own field. But this is not a shortcoming. If you specialize in something, you can't catch up and will forget the rest of medicine. That's what the other specialties do. Radiologists do other stuff than prescribe lipid-lowering or antihypertensive medications. Ask that pharm rep of yours what gradient echo is or what a hounsfield unit of zero means. Of course he wouldn't know. Everybody knows their own field. Medicine is too broad these days.

Thinking why radiologists don't do what primary care docs do is very naive. And no, radiologists do not carry around stethoscopes and don't fit your "traditional doc image". However, in this day and age, they are at the forefront of medical advancement. With less and less dependence (and knowledge) on physical exam and less tolerance for uncertainty, the role of radiology has become central to modern medicine, especially in recent years. The majority of major medical decisions are made on the basis of radiologic studies in this day and age. The demand for radiological expertise has grown more than demand for any other specialty. A recent study by Merritt Hawkins showed that radiologists are the most in-demand specialty. Ortho and cardiology were a distant second and third.

I don't blame you that you don't know much about radiology. The average medical student knows less about radiology than most other fields of medicine, since they are minimally exposed to it during medical school if at all (Hence, a thread like yours). Even if they are exposed to radiology, it's minimal compared to what they get exposed to in medicine, surgery, peds and when they do, they get minimal exposure to plain films only and none of the more advanced modalities or procedures. Even the surgery resident that you spoke to probably doesn't know anything about radiology.

Do I think I know a lot about medicine? Absolutely. (of course within my own personal limits). Radiologists are without doubt and by far the most knowledgeable of physicians overall, even more than pathologists and internal medicine docs. Any fair physician knows and acknowledges this too (our chief of IM does, and wishes people as bright as radiology residents went to his IM residency). You are required to know almost all the diseases of all organs and interact with almost all specialties, often a formidable task. That's why the radiology boards exams are perhaps the most difficult. You don't have to know much about the treatment of these disease entities, however, unless when radiology plays a central role in the treatment of those diseases (i.e., minimally invasive treatments). You have to do an extremely large amount of reading to become a good radiologist and maintain your competence, since radiology is growing at a more rapid pace than almost any other field. Even radiology itself is getting more and more subspecialized, just because of the fact that there is too much to know and one person can't keep up with the growth in knowledge.

It is true that radiologists have little patient contact. However, it's not as little as you think. When doing ultrasounds, GI and GU fluoro studies, biopsies, FNAs, image-guided injections, and all interventional studies, they have some patient contact. Many of them are quite happy with this small patient contact that they have, since it doesn't involve a lot of what they consider boring and BS (e.g. social, drug abuse, nursing home, noncompliance, placement, etc.) that plagues your "traditional" patient contact, esp. in the primary care setting.

The lifestyle issue is also exaggerated. The workload of radiologists has increased dramatically. They now have one of the longest hours. See this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?threadid=101722 . If you want radiology for it's fewer number of hours, you will be severely disappointed. This, however, was not the case ten years ago and radiologists did not work too hard at all. That stereotype still persists in the outsiders' minds, but it's changing. In big and busy training institutions, the radiology residency call is extremely tough and intense with your multiple beepers going off every 5 minutes throughout the night, though call frequency is not too often. I once had to do q2 call for a block, but that was quite unusual. In my hospital, even a few OB and neurosurgery residents have confessed that we work harder than them when on call. The upside is that our calls are much less frequent (no q3 unit calls). My friends and I who did "hardcore" university hospital IM and general surgery internships have found that our so-called "tough" internships were a joke compared to the intensity of our radiology calls as a PGY-3. Note that in many programs, call doesn't start until the PGY3 year, because before that you are not "even considered qualified to take call", again something to be said about how much you need to learn in radiology residency. Also note that most of radiology call is during the PGY3 and PGY4 years, a time in your career when your colleagues in most fields are getting a much lighter call schedule. It's not so pleasing to become an intern again when you are PGY3. You will have a good lifestyle when not on call or during your PGY2 and PGY5 years. All that said, I'm sure there are less intense radiology programs around as well.

It's very hard to get a sense of what radiology is before you do it. I find it boring just sitting and watching an attending go over a case, even as a radiology resident. I would be even more bored if I were a med student watching, since it would seem like just going back and forth through a bunch of images, without knowing the significance of the findings and without the need to heavily concentrate on every portion of every image trying to make sure you catch all the findings. However, when I'm doing it myself, it is extremely challenging, both intellectually and by knowing the fact that I'm helping patients and doctors alike, even if that patient I helped or saved never sees me in person.
 
Great post, docxter. It's great to have you contributing to the forum.
 
You are the man!
Your post is very informative and helpful. You volunteer your time to write such a long post and there are people out there who appreciates people like you who are insightful. Thanks for the post, comrade...
 
hello

i would like to thank you for that awesome reply! It was very enlightening. You are right about med student exposure to radiology being very minimal...we had a small course during our anatomy class on radiology, but it was the most boring thing on earth for everybody because we had no clue what the guy was talking about. However, like i said, since learning a little about reading films (during our family medicine rotation) I started to realize that it really was pretty interesting, especially when you start noticing these tiny little fractures, or tumors or what not.

You are right, no matter what field I choose, i am not going to know everything about medicine or be able to help everyone who needs medical help/advice. The optho guy is another good example of that.


well, thanks again!

NT
 
Radiologists know medicine, a LOT of medicine. Lipitor? Who cares.

As for other fields dissing rads... probably just pure jealousy.

Remember, there are two kinds of doctors out there.... radiologists and those who wish they were!
 
Originally posted by Docxter
Ask that pharm rep of yours what gradient echo is or what a hounsfield unit of zero means. Of course he wouldn't know. Everybody knows their own field.

Ironically enough, most RADIOLOGISTS dont even truly understand what a gradient echo is. They have a rudimentary understanding of when to use it clinically, but as far as nuts/bolts of what a gradient echo, spin echo, etc actually consists of, they are clueless.
 
Originally posted by Gradient Echo
Ironically enough, most RADIOLOGISTS dont even truly understand what a gradient echo is. They have a rudimentary understanding of when to use it clinically, but as far as nuts/bolts of what a gradient echo, spin echo, etc actually consists of, they are clueless.

Not a very meaningful insight. 99% of people who use computers don't truly understand how they work. 99% of people who drive don't really undestand how their cars really work. Fighter pilots are very skilled aviators but how many of them really know their laser guided bombs work? You don't have to understand the inner workings of something to be an effective user. In medicine I would say that almost all the docs don't really have a clue about how their technology really works.

On the flipside let's just say I am glad that my MRI physicist is not reading films. During one of our teaching sessions he kept calling the spleen the liver.
 
Originally posted by Goober
Not a very meaningful insight. 99% of people who use computers don't truly understand how they work. 99% of people who drive don't really undestand how their cars really work. Fighter pilots are very skilled aviators but how many of them really know their laser guided bombs work? You don't have to understand the inner workings of something to be an effective user. In medicine I would say that almost all the docs don't really have a clue about how their technology really works.

On the flipside let's just say I am glad that my MRI physicist is not reading films. During one of our teaching sessions he kept calling the spleen the liver.

Thats NOT what I'm arguing. I never said that radiologists were required to know what gradient echos are to do their work properly.

I was responding to another quote which suggested that radiologists know about gradient echos, when in fact they know very little about it.

I agree about your MRI physicist--each has their own place. Radiologists, with rare exception, have no idea how to develop a new MR pulse sequence, whereas the physics gurus cant interpret most rads images.
 
Well, I meant that radiologists know more about gradient echoes than other docs who probably even haven't heard of the term. Of course, I doubt that you my friend know the intricacies of the quantum theory of spin echoes and nuclear spin theory in any depth either, considering you are a bioengineering major and not physics or biophysics. By the same token, with very few exeptions, biomed engineers are clueless about the theoretical, thermodynamic and nuclear dynamic aspects of magnetic resonance.

Docxter - PhD, MD
(PhD in nuclear physics)
Dissertation in quantum theory of multiple spin echoes and multinuclear Overhauser effect in heteronuclear coupling.

I'm very sorry for this reply, but your post just demanded this response. The more you focus on the basic science of it, the less you will know of the clinical aspects. The bottom line is that there is nobody who knows all aspects of MRI, myself included. I still have so much to learn. The closest to a guru that I have come to see are the five attendings and fellows in my program who are MR fellowship trained/training and who also hold PhDs in MR physics/engineering.
 
Originally posted by Docxter

Docxter - PhD, MD
(PhD in nuclear physics)
Dissertation in quantum theory of multiple spin echoes and multinuclear Overhauser effect in heteronuclear coupling.

Bravo, man, you're well on your way to impressing a bunch of anonymous personalities on a freaking anonymous message board. I would have thought that your life would be stimulating enough without trying to impress a bunch of people on the internet, but I guess not.

If you are that interested in bragging to the world about your education, then please by all means put it in your signature line. I'm sure everybody on this board will say "wow, I'm really glad that guy put down that he got a PHD in nuc physics, that dude must be really special."

It appears to me you enjoy spouting off long technical terms and trying to show off to everybody how smart you are.

You are obviously a very cocky person with your comments about how radiologists are the smartest docs, etc. I'm glad you didnt go into a more patient-interactive specialty like IM, cause your patients would obviously hate your personality.

Congratulations on a total waste of a PhD. You are obviously a prestige *****. Nobody cares what your degrees are in or what your dissertation is.
 
maybe you guys should just whip it out and see who has the bigger one.
 
People, stop being so offended all the time....Docxter always has insightful thoughts and is very helpful to others...he is just proud of being a radiologist!
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
I'm glad you didnt go into a more patient-interactive specialty like IM, cause your patients would obviously hate your personality.

Congratulations on a total waste of a PhD.

Did you even read my post and did you even notice it was a reply to someone else??? Did you read his post? I guess not. He was belittling radiologists for not being MRI pulse sequence designers or not knowing as much as him about gradient echoes since he's doing biomed engineering. I just pointed out that there many things about MRI that he doesn't know himself. And why would I want to brag on an anonymous forum; bragging makes sense only when people know who you are.

About what you brought up about patient care and personality, I must say I very much enjoy taking care of patients. Many if not most people who go into radiology like direct patient care too, but find radiology more interesting in other aspects and are willing to give up much of traditional direct patient care for that. When I did my IM internship, I liked it a lot and the program really wanted me to stay in IM rather than go on into radiology. They tried to talk me out of it. I really enjoyed IM, but I thought I would enjoy radiology more, so I said no. Fortunately, I have had very good relationships with all my patients, with multiple patient commendation letters to both my IM and radiology chairman about treating and respecting them very well. I don't know about you MacGyver, but where I'm coming from, having a top-notch education (even in 'so-called' geeky fields like nuclear physics or engineering) and having a good personality are not inversely proportional.

And contrary to the previous posting, I'm not sorry for writing this post at all; I'm just sorry for you.
 
Originally posted by Docxter

And why would I want to brag on an anonymous forum

I have no idea. But yet you then say:

the program really wanted me to stay in IM rather than go on into radiology. They tried to talk me out of it. I really enjoyed IM, but I thought I would enjoy radiology more, so I said no. Fortunately, I have had very good relationships with all my patients, with multiple patient commendation letters to both my IM and radiology chairman about treating and respecting them very well.

I guess you dont believe what you said above. You obviously feel the need to spout off your "accomplishments" as if anyone on here gives a damn.

Let me guess... you were the best IM intern the hospital ever had and they put your picture up on the wall too right? 🙄

BTW, I know more about MRI than you do, and I dont have any of your degrees yet. Here's a question for you:

Why is the SNR higher in spin echo as opposed to gradient echo, all other things equal?
 
Looks like my work on this forum is done... I pass it on to Docxter.
 
Docxter,

Don't worry about MacGyver's posts. He is a well known troll who gets some sort of perverse pleasure from insulting and arguing with people online. I have never seen a productive post and rarely a non-confrontational post from this guy.

I enjoy your posts and I understood why you posted your credentials in response to Gradient Echo, who, by the way, also posts many insightful and interesting posts.
 
The helpful people on this board rule, and the cruddy posters who turn every thread into BS suck external sphincter.
 
[/B][/QUOTE] Why is the SNR higher in spin echo as opposed to gradient echo, all other things equal? [/B][/QUOTE]

i apologize in advance, i'm not trying to be a smartass, had to take a stab:

gradient echo linewidth is 1/T2*, spin echo is 1/T2. Given a TE that's an appreciable fraction of T2, and 1/T2 that's significantly less than the static field inhomogeneity, the spin echo will generate more signal at the sampling time. otherwise, in a well shimmed sample with a very short T2, it won't make much of a difference.

actually, i'm hoping doxster can give me some insight into something: i'm (attempting) to do a phd (MSTP) in MR in vivo spectroscopy... not going so hot, and actually it looks like i won't be able to really develop any new NMR so much as apply it to some extent.

it sounds like you're working in a pretty intense place, with so many of the attending/fellows having a strong quantitative background. do you have the impression that someone with a working understanding of NMR, but not much ability to write (eg) sequences, can do meaningful MR physiology research?

tx,
spaced
 
Spacedman,

You're right about the SNR thing in that the higher signal in SE sequences is due to the fact that they're T2 dependent instead of T2*.

As for MR spectroscopy, there has been/is a lot of research in this area. Unfortunately NMR spectroscopy in physical chemistry has proved much more valuable that in vivo MR spectroscopy.

It's very "cool" that we can get in vivo spectra, but despite all the work, clinical MRS at this time (2004) suffers from low specificity. There is a lot of work done in brain tumor grading, radiation necrosis, head and neck cancers, degenerative CNS diseases and stroke imaging, and prostate cancer, but they all provide marginal useful info. The Cho/Cr ratio, NAA/Cho ratio, and all the other ratios and analyses have low specificity and the info needs to be combined with other data, including anatomic info, enhancement characteristics, perfusion data, etc.. One of the very few with relatively good predictive value is the Cho/Cr ratio in PNET tumors of the posterior fossa. The real use now is in differentiation of Canavan's disease from Alexander's disease in kids, and the demonstration of incresed lactate in childhood metabolic disorders (nonspecific). The utility of MRS is unfortunately so low outside of these few select pathologies that medicare stopped paying for MRS altogether in 2002. Any MRS study now is done free without reimbursement, except for a nominal fee fro 3D processing.

I'm sure that developments in higher B0 magnets, better field homogeneity, automatic field map inhomogeneity correction, better spectral contamination algorithms/filters, better definition of higher-order heteronuclear coupling mechanisms, polarization transfer, non-hydrogen spectro, parallel and faster imaging (giving the ability to get good spectra from other parts of the body other than brain, neck, prostate) will all increase the clinical utility of MRS. It's an exciting field and reading about it is exciting, but be prepared to face some troubles and disappointments. But it's a field that needs newer ideas and good talent. And no, you do not need to be a pulse programmer to do MRS research.
 
Originally posted by Docxter


I'm sure that developments in higher B0 magnets, better field homogeneity, automatic field map inhomogeneity correction, better spectral contamination algorithms/filters, better definition of higher-order heteronuclear coupling mechanisms, polarization transfer, non-hydrogen spectro, parallel and faster imaging (giving the ability to get good spectra from other parts of the body other than brain, neck, prostate) will all increase the clinical utility of MRS. It's an exciting field and reading about it is exciting, but be prepared to face some troubles and disappointments. But it's a field that needs newer ideas and good talent. And no, you do not need to be a pulse programmer to do MRS research.

Doxster,
thanks for the reply-- it's good to hear a perspective other than the one propagated in my lab 😉 anyway, i hear you on the clinical side of MRS-- everything from depression to epilepsy seems to be characterized by (essentially) the same finding in proton spectroscopy, and with integrated PET/CT and better radioligands, it seems like the clinical value will be more with the latter.
i'm still curious what kind of research facility you work in where the medical fellows all have engineering backgrounds.... and do you know how common it is for an MD to _direct_ MR research with a decent understanding of NMR but a pretty middling engineering/physics background? i appreciate your input--

tx,
spaced

ps if this is getting to be too much for a bulletin board, please feel free to email me at [email protected]
 
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