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ewon2004

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I know rads make more money than the average MDs in the country, but I am interested in the details.

How much on average can a rad gross with a full-time position in the following, assuming reasonable vacation (ie 4-6 wks per year) and reasonable location (ie Boltimore or better city)

-academic position?

-private practice non-partner?

-private practice partner?

-full-time teleradiology?

I'd appreciate any info or pointers to useful resources.
 

IamMDMBA

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I know rads make more money than the average MDs in the country, but I am interested in the details.

How much on average can a rad gross with a full-time position in the following, assuming reasonable vacation (ie 4-6 wks per year) and reasonable location (ie Boltimore or better city)

-academic position?

-private practice non-partner?

-private practice partner?

-full-time teleradiology?

I'd appreciate any info or pointers to useful resources.
In my hospital, diagnostic rad starts at $375k, part of large group and not hospital employee. Interventional rads - the sky's the limits.
 

digitlnoize

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I know rads make more money than the average MDs in the country, but I am interested in the details.

How much on average can a rad gross with a full-time position in the following, assuming reasonable vacation (ie 4-6 wks per year) and reasonable location (ie Boltimore or better city)

-academic position?

-private practice non-partner?

-private practice partner?

-full-time teleradiology?

I'd appreciate any info or pointers to useful resources.

I really like using Google...

Try searching for "radiologist wanted" or radiologist+salary and you'll get some useful results.

In general: academic<PP non-partner<PP partner. Tele seems to fall around the PP non-partner range, but is highly variable due to the nature of the field.
 

hopefulmed

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I know rads make more money than the average MDs in the country, but I am interested in the details.

How much on average can a rad gross with a full-time position in the following, assuming reasonable vacation (ie 4-6 wks per year) and reasonable location (ie Boltimore or better city)

-academic position?

-private practice non-partner?

-private practice partner?

-full-time teleradiology?

I'd appreciate any info or pointers to useful resources.

- academic position: i don't know
- PP non-partner ~300K+ starting
- PP partner .. depends on your group, 400-500K+
- full-time tele.

Don't let people convince you out of rad. It's still a great field, salary will continue to be high and better with new technology. Everyone who walks into the hospital practically gets a CT now, that's the attitude/behavior/approach that every attending take to cover their asses and no public policy is going to change that fear and convenience in utilizing that resource. PP complain that they work harder now to maintain salary, but that's all relative and PP guys will still never work as much as a "first line" clinician. Rad residency is no where as difficult as surgery/surgical sub-specialty, medicine.. still a lot easier than peds/FP, maybe a little more demanding than psych (but still no pts).
 

schan

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Here are the basic facts but honestly alot of income data is not public. However, here is what I know and others can confirm or refute.

* Academic < Private Practice although gap is closing
* Range for academics ranges from 150K-400K+ (high end for the interventional rad, veterans, chiefs, heads of sections, world-class heavily funded researchers)
* Range for private practice $250K-1M+ (low end for new hires, part-time, and high end for partners).. although based on personal experience and friends, average you hear about at least is in the 300-400 range.
* moonlighting/locums ranges to $150/h to $300+/h depending on procedure or diagnostic based (many are shift-based reimbursement too)

Don't let your eyes on the bank or dollar bills influence your choice because radiology salaries have never been stable--low or high. So expect changes.

Do it because you love it and the money will come. As long as you are happy in your job, you will most likely be happy with your paycheck :)
 

personal jesus

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In the future what is to prevent the insurance companies or government to just start lowering the reimbursements for radiologists? I cannot see how the income disparities between the different medical specialties can continue to be justified. Especially considering that the lifestyle of radiology, unlike surgery, will always attract residents even if the salaries were only 200K, I do not see what leverage radiologists will have against salary cuts. The same could be said about dermatology. If the government mandated that there we doubled the number of training positions to flood the market with radiologists and dermatologists reimbursements would plummet.

My way of thinking is choose something that you would still be willing to do even if it paid 200K.
 

Labslave

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My way of thinking is choose something that you would still be willing to do even if it paid 200K.

I'm not going to rip the rest of your post to shreds (I'll let others here do that), but it really irritates me to hear people make statements like "even if I were ONLY making $200k/year." Are you kidding me?! Get some perspective, people...
 

Kitra101

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labslave...if there was a debt forgiveness program involved, I would agree but given that no one wants to help docs from having reimbursment cuts yet demands 24/7 excellent healthcare from people trained for more years than in any other profession, I see his/her point for wanting excellent compensation. yes 200K is a lot to most people, but most people aren't 100k and way up in debt (before interest), training for 7 plus years working 60 to 80 hours a week. Furthermore, it is very irregular to have someone give you a decaf latte when you ordered a regular and then for you to sue them for hundreds of thousands of dollars. that may be his/her perspective but I don't want to speak for him/her.
 

Labslave

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labslave...if there was a debt forgiveness program involved, I would agree but given that no one wants to help docs from having reimbursment cuts yet demands 24/7 excellent healthcare from people trained for more years than in any other profession, I see his/her point for wanting excellent compensation. yes 200K is a lot to most people, but most people aren't 100k and way up in debt (before interest), training for 7 plus years working 60 to 80 hours a week. Furthermore, it is very irregular to have someone give you a decaf latte when you ordered a regular and then for you to sue them for hundreds of thousands of dollars. that may be his/her perspective but I don't want to speak for him/her.

First of all, I don't blame anyone for using monetary incentives as a criteria for choosing a profession - provided he/she will actually enjoy his/her work. This is especially true in medicine given all of the debt, time investment, liability, etc. If given the choice between doing Job A paying 200k and Job B paying 400k, assuming both are similarly enjoyable etc., Job B wins hands down. I'm no idiot. :)

But remember, even within medicine itself, the average doctor doesn't make 200k/year. On an absolute scale, 200k is a lot of money and above the average compensation of our colleagues (who are a part of the highest paying profession in America).
 

Terpskins99

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I'm not going to rip the rest of your post to shreds (I'll let others here do that), but it really irritates me to hear people make statements like "even if I were ONLY making $200k/year." Are you kidding me?! Get some perspective, people...
Yeah, no kiddin. I mean, I'd be willing to do radiology if I ONLY made 199k/year. :cool:
 
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personal jesus

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I'm not going to rip the rest of your post to shreds (I'll let others here do that), but it really irritates me to hear people make statements like "even if I were ONLY making $200k/year." Are you kidding me?! Get some perspective, people...

My point is two fold. 1. Reimbursements, especially in "lifestyle" specialities, can easily be downgraded by the government and/or insurance companies (look at CT surgery or chemo reimbursements. 2. Knowing that you might not make the 500K mentioned in these posts you have to decide on whether you like radiology or the 500K made doing radiology.

Im sorry if labslave does not recognize my sarcasm using the word "only"
 

medgator

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But remember, even within medicine itself, the average doctor doesn't make 200k/year. On an absolute scale, 200k is a lot of money and above the average compensation of our colleagues (who are a part of the highest paying profession in America).

Just curious --- what is the average salary for a physician (among all specialties)?
 

peduncle

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Hey,

Do mean all medical specialties or all subspecialties of Radiology. If you are looking for the salary breakdown of all specialties just Google "Physician Salaries" and you'll get a couple full lists.... all the info should be taken with a grain of salt and (as said before) please don't choose a specialty based on money (although the financial debt you accrue after medical training my influence you to do so.. which is something that can't be looked down on to a certain extent).
 

Terpskins99

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don't choose a specialty based on money
To which I respond... why the f*** not? :confused:

If YOU want to take the high road and enter a thankless low-paying specialty, good for you. But telling everyone else to do so and for what? Out of goodwill towards your fellow man? Give me a break.
 

facetguy

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In the future what is to prevent the insurance companies or government to just start lowering the reimbursements for radiologists? I cannot see how the income disparities between the different medical specialties can continue to be justified. Especially considering that the lifestyle of radiology, unlike surgery, will always attract residents even if the salaries were only 200K, I do not see what leverage radiologists will have against salary cuts. The same could be said about dermatology. If the government mandated that there we doubled the number of training positions to flood the market with radiologists and dermatologists reimbursements would plummet.

Advantage: dermatologists. Very few patients are paying cash out of pocket for elective radiology services. Perhaps a new field will emerge: cosmetic radiology.
 

JStephens

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To which I respond... why the f*** not? :confused:

If YOU want to take the high road and enter a thankless low-paying specialty, good for you. But telling everyone else to do so and for what? Out of goodwill towards your fellow man? Give me a break.
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 

personal jesus

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If you are not even in med school yet and already decided your interested in $$$ Id recommend not going to med school. You have at least 7 years of training (much more if you want to do rads) and there is no way to be sure if the reimbursements are going drop. Law and business are much more surefire ways to make money without nearly as much training.
 

JStephens

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If you are not even in med school yet and already decided your interested in $$$ Id recommend not going to med school. You have at least 7 years of training (much more if you want to do rads) and there is no way to be sure if the reimbursements are going drop. Law and business are much more surefire ways to make money without nearly as much training.
Meh. It's crazy to not be interested in the financial figures. It ALL goes together.. There isn't a doctor I know that would have gone into medicine if they couldn't do something they love AND make a good living, and I have asked several doctors. Money matters, plain and simple and anyone who tries to negate this fact is in denial. I agree that medicine is not the best route to go for someone who is has more interest in money than the profession itself as it is time consuming in comparison to other careers. If i spend almost a decade in school for something (Even if i am completely in love with the subject matter), I want to be compensated for it well. If I were only in it for the love of it, id look into Peds which doesn't pay that much more than my current job in my area of the country, but for me, it's all one big package.
 

peduncle

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A lot of us (at least a lot in my medschool class) got jaded as the years progressed to the point where money did play a factor in our choices of speciality.... but it's sad to see how jaded you are as a pre-med..hah.
What is your current job? Peds do get shafted a bit as far as salary but I know of a handful of new peds graduates who are making $150 - 160 and working basically only 3 days a week. Thats not terrible.
 
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hopefulmed

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labslave...if there was a debt forgiveness program involved, I would agree but given that no one wants to help docs from having reimbursment cuts yet demands 24/7 excellent healthcare from people trained for more years than in any other profession, I see his/her point for wanting excellent compensation. yes 200K is a lot to most people, but most people aren't 100k and way up in debt (before interest), training for 7 plus years working 60 to 80 hours a week. Furthermore, it is very irregular to have someone give you a decaf latte when you ordered a regular and then for you to sue them for hundreds of thousands of dollars. that may be his/her perspective but I don't want to speak for him/her.


I find it funny that in a single thought, you felt $100K is a lot of money (debt), yet find 200K a year salary is not a lot of money. Greed (i'm no better) really skews our perspective, doesn't it?
 

Kitra101

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reread what I wrote...100k and way up....for some reason, I keep seeing stats that the average us medical student debt is near 100k but I'm not sure how that is possible...personally I am going to top that number easily. There are others who had to pay their way totally for undergrad and med school and one or both may have been private...at 30k a year for med school tuition only (not including living expenses, interest to be paid on loans or any aspect of undergrad), you are already 120k in debt....the other stuff will bring you up rapidly...not a small debt to pay. furthermore don't underestimate how much interest you will be paying...google loan interest calculator, put in 120k (which in some cases is only the cost of tuition) at a 10 yr loan with a rate of (i think the unsubsidized stafford is btw 6-7 percent and the amount of interest is staggering
 
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Terpskins99

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If you are not even in med school yet and already decided your interested in $$$ Id recommend not going to med school. You have at least 7 years of training (much more if you want to do rads) and there is no way to be sure if the reimbursements are going drop. Law and business are much more surefire ways to make money without nearly as much training.
There is nothing "surefire" about making money in law or business. Come on now.

Have you been following the news lately?
 

ygree001

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reread what I wrote...100k and way up....for some reason, I keep seeing stats that the average us medical student debt is near 100k but I'm not sure how that is possible...


Because all those numbers are means and brought way down by students with no or very little debt. Median debt would be a much more useful number.
 

Kitra101

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Your semantics about statistics are great - but unfortunately does not change the fact that debt is bad, reimbursement is decreasing and working hours/training lengths are increasing (and the public does not understand that)
 

Neuronix

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Just curious --- what is the average salary for a physician (among all specialties)?

I did some Google searches and came up with these numbers

http://truecost.wordpress.com/2008/07/06/education-roi-not-all-majors-are-created-equal/

$179,000 on average according to this which is based on government statistics.

This person in this article and in this article:

http://truecost.wordpress.com/2008/12/28/career-rankings-by-roi-and-salary/

claims that based on length and expense of education and other factors, the return on investment for a medical specialist at $190,000/year is #5 among the careers surveyed behind computer science, pharmacy, certain types of engineering, and law. Primary care drops to #9 averaging $161,500/year.

The reason given:

"Doctors have always enjoyed good incomes, but their educational investment is so high that it reduces their educational ROI more than is commonly realized."

For primary care:

"Primary Care doctors have an educational investment almost as high as medical specialists, but do not receive commensurate salaries."

In contrast for law:

"Attorneys rank high on the list since their education is complete just three years after college, and they can step right into six-figure salaries."

Thus, the desire for high salaries within medicine are easily justified. After large educational debt for the top students in college and then the high hour, low pay abuse through most residencies, it's not much of a stretch to justify that docs should be the highest paid guys out there on average. I wonder how much by this person's data a doctor would have to get paid to be the #1 career by his methodology taking into account the opportunity costs of each career.
 

andexterouss

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I did some Google searches and came up with these numbers

http://truecost.wordpress.com/2008/07/06/education-roi-not-all-majors-are-created-equal/

$179,000 on average according to this which is based on government statistics.

This person in this article and in this article:

http://truecost.wordpress.com/2008/12/28/career-rankings-by-roi-and-salary/

claims that based on length and expense of education and other factors, the return on investment for a medical specialist at $190,000/year is #5 among the careers surveyed behind computer science, pharmacy, certain types of engineering, and law. Primary care drops to #9 averaging $161,500/year.

The reason given:

"Doctors have always enjoyed good incomes, but their educational investment is so high that it reduces their educational ROI more than is commonly realized."

For primary care:

"Primary Care doctors have an educational investment almost as high as medical specialists, but do not receive commensurate salaries."

In contrast for law:

"Attorneys rank high on the list since their education is complete just three years after college, and they can step right into six-figure salaries."

Thus, the desire for high salaries within medicine are easily justified. After large educational debt for the top students in college and then the high hour, low pay abuse through most residencies, it's not much of a stretch to justify that docs should be the highest paid guys out there on average. I wonder how much by this person's data a doctor would have to get paid to be the #1 career by his methodology taking into account the opportunity costs of each career.

That quote is very questionable. Unless you graduated from a top law school no company is going to pay you six-figures. Law is a tier profession ;the top enjoy spoil while everyone else fight for the crumbs. Medicine is still a much better investment than law since one's school attendance does not determine pay rate.
 

medgator

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That quote is very questionable. Unless you graduated from a top law school no company is going to pay you six-figures. Law is a tier profession ;the top enjoy spoil while everyone else fight for the crumbs. Medicine is still a much better investment than law since one's school attendance does not determine pay rate.

Plus there is a much larger supply of lawyers than there are doctors. IIRC, there are 3+ lawyers that graduate for every one medical student graduating.
 

fun8stuff

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That quote is very questionable. Unless you graduated from a top law school no company is going to pay you six-figures. Law is a tier profession ;the top enjoy spoil while everyone else fight for the crumbs. Medicine is still a much better investment than law since one's school attendance does not determine pay rate.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm#earnings
 
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schan

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Interesting post facetguy---I just recently had a serious conversation w/ another radiologist about how we both know another radiologist who actually has moved into offering out-of-pocket procedures at his private practice. He is an interventional radiologist who basically does botox and other cosmetic procedures involving a needle.

I wonder where his mind is focused on? of course $$$.. But that being said, nothing is truly wrong with focusing on $$ and also the issue is, can a radiologist do derm? There is also an article in a radiology journal about radiologists doing cosmetic procedures... i.e. an IR trained physician doing procedures so long as he is also trained in doing a top quality standard of care job for cosmetics. Apparently this one MD's practice is booming.

Interesting...

Advantage: dermatologists. Very few patients are paying cash out of pocket for elective radiology services. Perhaps a new field will emerge: cosmetic radiology.
 

personal jesus

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Anyone who has worked hard enough in medical school to match into rads would likely excel in law school as well. The top graduates of law schools making big $$$. They earn way above the median salaries. Granted they work a ton.
 

facetguy

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Interesting post facetguy---I just recently had a serious conversation w/ another radiologist about how we both know another radiologist who actually has moved into offering out-of-pocket procedures at his private practice. He is an interventional radiologist who basically does botox and other cosmetic procedures involving a needle.

I wonder where his mind is focused on? of course $$$.. But that being said, nothing is truly wrong with focusing on $$ and also the issue is, can a radiologist do derm? There is also an article in a radiology journal about radiologists doing cosmetic procedures... i.e. an IR trained physician doing procedures so long as he is also trained in doing a top quality standard of care job for cosmetics. Apparently this one MD's practice is booming.

Interesting...

Apparently, though, the move to cash-based cosmetic procedures has already found its way into other specialties. Several family docs in my town advertise these services pretty heavily. So why not radiologists? With shrinking insurance reimbursements, we'll likely see more of this in the future.
 

powermd

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Anyone who has worked hard enough in medical school to match into rads would likely excel in law school as well. The top graduates of law schools making big $$$. They earn way above the median salaries. Granted they work a ton.

Law is a different kind of work than medicine. I was able to focus and study my brains out to get through med school because I find the material fundamentally interesting. There's NO WAY I could have done the same with law. Top lawyers are really freakin' sharp too. I'm a smart guy, and I think I have some wisdom too, but I'm not very quick witted with logic games and rhetoric on my feet. My talents were good enough to put me where I am now- on the cusp of getting a job in interventional pain medicine, where I can hope to be paid north of $500K in a few years. I can't say I would have done as well in business or law. I'm sure the same is true of many of my colleagues.

If you read some of the posts at Vault.com, you quickly realize it's not enough to go to a top 20 law school. To get a "BIG LAW" job, as they call it, you need to be in the top 10% at a top 20 school. For the best jobs, you have to make the law review. Some people on those boards even advocate dropping out after your first year if you aren't at the top, because your likelihood of getting a top job are close to nil.
 

MSKmonky

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Hey! just came across your post. Just wondering, did you get an Interventional Pain fellowship after Anesthesia or Radiology? I'm guessing Radiology since you posted in the Rad's Income thread.... but just thought I'd ask. Is that becoming more common now?
 

MSKmonky

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Nevermind.. just realized I can get that info from your profile. You went through Anesthesia
 

tum

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That quote is very questionable. Unless you graduated from a top law school no company is going to pay you six-figures. Law is a tier profession ;the top enjoy spoil while everyone else fight for the crumbs. Medicine is still a much better investment than law since one's school attendance does not determine pay rate.

There are 12 lawyers for every 1 doctor, statistically. A medical student from the United Status who's graduated from an American MD school, statistically, would have gotten into a top 10 law school.

I dated a girl from what is considered to be a top three law school a few years ago. Her STARTING salary (and she was middle-bottom of the class) was $210k.

She was 24.

Of course you can make as much or money in law.

If you're savvy, you can make money with anything.

The point is, can you like it. Or if not like it, at least put up with it. I know IM docs making 500k. They're referral factories. I know interventionalists in academics that pull in 300k. The UC system advertises its salaries online -- you can look them up if you'd like.

Go into radiology if you shadow some guys in private and academic practice, and you see one or the other fitting for you.

Realize there's a component of "watching someone else read a book" to it, and take that into account.

Don't go into radiology because "you hate everything else". You will probably hate radiology too.

If you're just lazy, realize you can be lazy in any field if you just go into academics and work at a VA.

If you hate medicine in general but you're already in med school, go into consulting.
 

Studebug

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I know rads make more money than the average MDs in the country, but I am interested in the details.

How much on average can a rad gross with a full-time position in the following, assuming reasonable vacation (ie 4-6 wks per year) and reasonable location (ie Boltimore or better city)

-academic position?

-private practice non-partner?

-private practice partner?

-full-time teleradiology?

I'd appreciate any info or pointers to useful resources.

Visit this link. It will provide you a lot of job info across the country.

http://www.radworking.com/jobs/radiology-jobs.html
 

Studebug

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Here are the basic facts but honestly alot of income data is not public. However, here is what I know and others can confirm or refute.

* Academic < Private Practice although gap is closing
* Range for academics ranges from 150K-400K+ (high end for the interventional rad, veterans, chiefs, heads of sections, world-class heavily funded researchers)
* Range for private practice $250K-1M+ (low end for new hires, part-time, and high end for partners).. although based on personal experience and friends, average you hear about at least is in the 300-400 range.
* moonlighting/locums ranges to $150/h to $300+/h depending on procedure or diagnostic based (many are shift-based reimbursement too)

Don't let your eyes on the bank or dollar bills influence your choice because radiology salaries have never been stable--low or high. So expect changes.

Do it because you love it and the money will come. As long as you are happy in your job, you will most likely be happy with your paycheck :)


Can you go into the combinations? Can you do PP and then do teleradiology or nighthawk on the weekends? Can you do locum tenen work on your PP vacation time?

This is not about "money". If this works out for me, I will be leaving a long Chem E job and eventually entering the radiology world on the back side of life (kids all gone). I won't have a 30 yr career. It will be more like 15. Financially it will take a long time to make up ground had I just worked as a Chem E but Rads is what I want to do so I am just going to pursue the dream.


I have been looking at the fellowships also. Why does it appear that the subs make (or start out at least) about the same? Cardio thoracic radiology really sparks my interest. But I can't understand why I would go another year giving up $300K so I could make $50K with more training only to start out at the same salary. I only question that because every year for me matters since I would be starting so late.

To what age does a typical radiologist work?
 

bananamed

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Uhhh, I may be alone in this but I say don't.

In this economy, with medical school tuition the way it is now, with changes approaching in the medical system (not for the better either IMO), and with radiology salaries likely to drop and not increase (they're already dropping thanks to the DRA), it would take a helluva lot to get me to quit a job and head back to medical school especially if my goal was to strike gold as a radiologist.
 

Studebug

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Uhhh, I may be alone in this but I say don't.

In this economy, with medical school tuition the way it is now, with changes approaching in the medical system (not for the better either IMO), and with radiology salaries likely to drop and not increase (they're already dropping thanks to the DRA), it would take a helluva lot to get me to quit a job and head back to medical school especially if my goal was to strike gold as a radiologist.

Thanks for the feedback. I will definitely keep that in mind. I am not trying to strike gold in Radiology, merely hoping to find happiness in a career. Happiness in what I do is more important to me than what I get paid. I understand about the tuition. In the interview they said tuition will increase up to 10%.

Obama should have made whatever changes he thinks by the time I have to apply for residency. It will be time for him to be re-elected at that point so I hope to be able to make an informed decision.
 

thebeatblitz

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sChan's numbers look close to my anecdotal info from relatives (academic and pp partner).

If you want the $$$, they both said to do mammo. Recently, everyone's wanted MSK and nobody's been willing to touch mammo with a 10ft. pole, so if you're confident, you can make the big bucks.
 

Re3iRtH

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sChan's numbers look close to my anecdotal info from relatives (academic and pp partner).

If you want the $$$, they both said to do mammo. Recently, everyone's wanted MSK and nobody's been willing to touch mammo with a 10ft. pole, so if you're confident, you can make the big bucks.

I had a long conversation with a mammo radiologist the other day and she
said mammo had low compensation and "no glamour" compared to other
fields of radiology. I assume this means you still make at least as much
as a board certified radiologist. (What is wrong with this world when
we are considering $375k$ low? :laugh: )
 

PeepshowJohnny

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I had a long conversation with a mammo radiologist the other day and she
said mammo had low compensation and "no glamour" compared to other
fields of radiology. I assume this means you still make at least as much
as a board certified radiologist. (What is wrong with this world when
we are considering $375k$ low? :laugh: )

No glamour I believe. I don't think you can make as big a killing as some fields, but 've heard if you're also doing breast ultrasound, biopsies, stereotactic, etc. the compensations is great, especially when you combine it with the ability to practice basically anywhere due to lack of saturation.
 
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