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[DVMDream]

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I agree for the need for boundaries, and I'm glad you're pushing for what you need.

But as someone who worked a salaried job in a completely different industry before this...it's really not unusual to be expected to pick up the phone if your job calls you on your day off to ask you a question or get your input on something.

It's the difference between a salaried employee and an hourly employee/shift worker. Patients (like projects) don't evaporate at the end of a day, and vets function in a leadership capacity in a clinic setting. I don't think it's crazy for co-workers to want to be able to contact you if they are in a crunch.

(Note - I'm not saying they should expect you to drop everything and come in to work, and I think having adequate time off/personal days/flexibility is SUPER important to employee happiness. But tbh I probably wouldn't hire someone who wanted to be totally inaccessible whenever they're off. Doesn't feel reasonable or team-oriented in a real world context.)

I can't express how wrong this is. If you are not on call you should be able to expect your days off to be days off without any interruption from work at all whatsoever. Period.

I can say that I have never been at a job that contacted me outside of my working hours since graduating.

Salaried employee means that you understand your shift end time, may not be your shift end time. The balance to that is that if you have something going on or you need to leave a bit early one day you should be able to without punishment. That is how to balance the salaried employee, they stay late frequently to complete work but get the benefit of leaving early at times if needed. Otherwise, if you expect your salaried employee to give you extra time and never allow them the counter-balance you are abusing the salaried employee.

It is true that patients to not evaporate, however, when you leave at the end of the day, that patient is now the next DVM's responsibility. Patients are not Dr. A's or Dr. B' or Dr. C's, the patients belong to XYZ clinic and all doctors can be reasonably expected to care for all the patients of that clinic. It is how I can do rx refills for a pet I have never seen because I can look at the medical record, history, other Dr notes and determine if that refill is ok to be approved or not.

The only exception I would make to being contacted on a day off is if I had a total brain malfunction and forgot to write up a record and you need to know what I said/did/etc. That is fair game. Otherwise, the other vets should be able to handle any patient that is present.


I should not be called about hospitalized pets, their status can change overnight, evaluate the patient and make a plan, you are the DVM on duty, it is now your patient. For example, I did relief ER for a bit, I admitted a DKA one night, get it all set up for the night, treatment plan set out, etc. That dog will be in hospital for easily the next 3 days. Since I was swing shift, the night DVM was responsible for monitoring and changing things overnight depending on physical exam and lab results. The day DVM would take over the next morning, etc, etc. There is no reason to need to contact me about that patient as I can't examine it, smell it, touch it, auscultate it, etc. If your clinic is so dependent on a single DVM that you need to be contacting that person constantly regarding patients then you need to find new DVMs. Period.

Here's a GP example. Parvo puppy hospitalized overnight. Not ideal since no one present overnight, but it happens. I look at puppy before I leave the night before. I don't work next day. I set up a tentative plan based on what puppy looks like before I head out. Let's say I decide puppy needs to remain hospitalized and all treatments continued as they had been previously. The next morning rolls around and when the tech goes to offer food, puppy eats with gusto, puppy is now only having soft stool, drinking water, playful, happy. Does my tentative plan make sense now? No, it doesn't. I shouldn't be called and told this. The DVM coming on should examine puppy see it is much improved and adjust treatment appropriately.

Any vet should be able to figure out rx refills.

Staff should be able to handle grumpy Mrs. Jones who only will see Dr. A and explain Dr. A is off and she will have to see Dr. B or Dr. C or wait until Dr. A is back. Dr. A shouldn't receive any contact regarding this.

I have seen many, many vets leave because clinics will not accept that day off literally means just that. It doesn't matter how you are paid. And currently with it being the vets pick to where they work, if you expect to be able to contact an associate whenever you want, you won't find an associate.

 

[DVMDream]

I am trying to think of one or two things that would be of most benefit to helping the suicide rates in veterinary medicine.

I guess the biggest one is changing society's viewpoint on that animals are something they need. No one needs a pet. Pets are luxury items. And it is the animals that suffer from this mentality that just because someone wants a pet it means they should have it.

I can't count the number of animals I have seen that are outright neglected because people seriously think that a pet "just needs food and love." Matted animals, feces caked into fur. There is even a term for feces caught in matted fur blocking an animal from defecating. Pseudocoprostasis. That is ridiculous that something like that happens enough that we had to develop a damn medical term for it.

I can't count the number of animals I have seen with necrotic tumors that are easily half the size of the pet.
The number of non-treated dogs with severe KCS who now need enucleation of both eyes because their are eyes are just a hunk of matted fur and eye goop.

The amount of outright neglect to animals out there is rampant by people who believe that they deserve to have a pet and what they are doing isn't wrong because after all, they feed the dog and that is all that it really needs.

Society's viewpoint needs a giant overhaul and this is unlikely to happen, unless we start reporting these people regularly for the neglect they cause. Instead of just euthanizing the neglected pet that now can't be treated and moving on.

Pets cost money. I even watched a tech ignore her older cat, her own pet. I had told her the cat needs additional testing to determine if diabetic or not and needs it immediately. She claimed the not having money bit, which ok, fine maybe she didn't. Then a week later finds an ancient cat on the street and dumps over $200 on that cat to get it vaccinated and full blood work ran on it. 3 weeks later she brings in her own personal pet that is now dying because she didn't follow up and get it the testing it needed and instead focused on this random cat she found on the street because sending that cat to the shelter was wrong in her mind as they would euthanize it. So instead she ended up euthanizing her personal cat.

 

[DVMDream]

Second biggest change would be corporate/management expectations as these happen in non-corporate clinics as well.

1. Trust the DVM when they say that they can't see/do/fit in/work in a particular case or client that has called. Trust them when they say that pet's best option is ER.

2. Chronic conditions do not need to be fit in. They are chronic. If they have been occurring for weeks to months, one more day, 12 more hours isn't going to make a difference. If it is or the client thinks it will, it should be seen by ER.

3. Support your support staff. And back them up when they enforce your policies. If you create a free wellness exam for new clients coupon and a regular client tries to use it and your receptionist tells them no, because they should tell them no since it doesn't apply to that client. When the client calls corporate and bitches, do not just reimburse the client and undermine your receptionist. This sends the message to the receptionist that you do not support them, you do not back them up and that they shouldn't be enforcing the rules you set up.

4. Do NOT tell the staff that they can overbook and double book the DVM without asking the DVM first. Want to see me walk out? That is a good way to start my heading out the door.

5. If a client is late, they reschedule. Period. I make exceptions to this on occasion. Car accidents. Road closures near the clinic. Really good client that is usually always on time. Only 5 minutes past, ok, fine. But when you tell me I have to see the client that is 5 hours late (this isn't a joke), I am not going to be happy. Why have appointment times if you just let people do whatever they want? Just make it a walk in clinic at that point.

6. I can't be in two places at once. My DVM didn't give me the ability to split into two. And if I can't split in two, I sure can't split into three. Or four. Keep this in mind when scheduling things.

7. If a client is abusive, do NOT continue to see them and do NOT expect your staff to continue to see them. Abusive people get the boot the instant they become abusive.

8. If a dog is so aggressive that we have to use a rabies pole and then syringe pole drugs into said dog through a kennel door, we shouldn't be seeing this patient. This is insanely dangerous to be handling in a GP practice, for the staff, the owner and the dog. And the dog should be refused until owner gets it to a behaviorist.

I could keep going, but overall management expectations need a massive adjustment. The way that clients are catered to needs to change.

 

[DVMDream]

While I understand colleagues may want to contact me if say, I see a patient the day before and they come in on my day off. They may want to get my opinion or help on a case that they're having trouble with. There are definitely a ton of scenarios in which the clinic will want to get a hold of me. But it doesn't seem reasonable or team-orientated to me to have employees work when they aren't at work, hourly or salary. I strongly feel that someone's responsibility to work (as an employee, not an owner) ends the moment they walk out the door. My employer has no right to my time and energy that they aren't paying me for.

So as a new grad you are going to have ALL the questions. I strongly encourage new grads to find clinics that have multiple vets so there will be someone working with you to bounce ideas off on. If you are working in a clinic with multiple vets, there should be no reason the vets that have the day off need to be contacted, unless they didn't complete medical notes or something and you need to know what happened. There are going to be plenty of vets around to ask questions to that are actually working.

Now, I did get stuck working by myself a lot within 4-6 months after graduation and let me say, I found resources that weren't my colleagues that had the day off. I did have permission from my colleagues to contact them if needed, but I tried my best not to. I had to once. I was forced to learn as a solo DVM rather quickly and the vast majority of my career has been myself working solo.

There are TONS of facebook page with thousands of vets where you can post cases and get case input/help. I have posted labwork, radiographs, just overview of a case that isn't matching up. There is VIN. Utilize books, journals, etc.

You can completely expect to not be bothered on your day off. And I am shocked to see so many agreeing that this can't be a thing. It can be a thing and not only can it be, it should be. You don't want the stress of now worrying about a pet that was doing well and is taking a turn for the worse on your day off. You won't be able to stop thinking about it. You won't be able to stop wondering what you did wrong, what more should you have done, etc and that isn't fair to put on you on your day off. You should be allowed clear, non-vet med related brain time.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

I have another paper request for the interwebs.

**Solved**

 

[PippyPony]

@DVMDream I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I can say that I have never been at a job that contacted me outside of my working hours since graduating.

Ok, I worked in another industry for a decade, have family members and a spouse who work in other industries, and so I was giving perspective on that. They get sometimes get contacted on their days off. They are not at a higher risk of depression and suicide because of it.

The only exception I would make to being contacted on a day off is if I had a total brain malfunction and forgot to write up a record and you need to know what I said/did/etc. That is fair game.

^This is more of what I meant.

I'm not sure if you read my whole post before going off on a soapbox, but I said at the end that I think adequate time off is EXTREMELY important to happiness and influences what I'm talking about here. At my old job, I had 6 weeks PTO, unlimited sick days, and could work from home or from another office almost any day I wanted to.

So, if someone wanted to call me once or twice during one of those 6 weeks off to ask a question or get my feedback on something, I was not going to jump down their throat for not being able to handle their ****.

In many jobs, including many vet jobs, people work in teams. It benefits everyone to be a good person to work with on a team. It is also very possible to have boundaries and enforce them without marching in and issuing demands like a solo mercenary (unless you're a locum vet and kinda are a mercenary haha).

...But that assumes people are getting enough time to themselves to begin with, which is an entirely different issue and one that I have strong feelings about. Vacation time, adequate staffing levels, and overall flexibilty make for happy employees.

 

[DVMDream]

I now frequently hear things like “we can’t be their accountants. I can only make recommendations and they can choose to accept or decline.” This is the polar opposite of what general practice is like. It seems a little bit that specialty medicine is more similar to human medicine than general practice is, in a good way (financially). The doctors are more disconnected, at least in an academic specialty hospital, from the finances than in a GP clinic. I understand that in a private specialty hospital it’s pretty different.

I mean, the same happens in GP too. You may not hear it as "we can't be their accountants" but I have definitely numerous times have stated "I can only make recommendations and they can choose to accept or decline." It might mean declining a few things or declining everything. But the same thing does exist in GP work as well. I don't dwell too much anymore on what people can or can't do. I make my recommendations and let them decide what fits in their budget. Their per, their responsibility. My responsibility is to guide them to what we recommend medically, it is their responsibility to do what they can within their means.

I do agree the specialty medicine, especially in the academic world is quite removed from exactly how much people can afford. A dermatologist told us in vet school that if we can't do skin scrape/cytology/tape prep/impression smear/ear cytology and checking for ringworm on every skin case then we are doing it "wrong" and if people can't afford it then we are charging too much. He clearly hasn't encountered the slums of America in a very long time and is out of touch with reality.

 

[Stroganoff]

Ok, I worked in another industry for a decade, have family members and a spouse who work in other industries, and so I was giving perspective on that. They get sometimes get contacted on their days off. They are not at a higher risk of depression and suicide because of it.

I wrote like a 5 pages post to Elkhart like a year ago. I kinda agree with both yours and DVMD's viewpoints. My experience at a few jobs was abusive though because I didn't know better, but it was basically no limit to work 80 hours, 90 hours, 100 hours, 7 days... skipping meals, little sleep, going in on sick days and vacation days (basically working for free). working home til 3 am then going back in at 5 am. either non-existent coworkers (since I shouldered the FTE load) or incompetent coworkers who called me as I was literally boarding the jetway on a plane that the sky was falling but missed a critical window to gather data. (i verified sky was not falling from my iphone).

Anyways, I was and am at a higher risk of the depression and SI due to the years of sleep deprivation that then led to chronic health problems. (still haven't slept restfully since 2012...24/7 i feel groggy as if I've pulled an all-nighter). That lack of restful healing every night for literal years is what's royally messed with my sanity and grasp of reality and loss of hope.

I think I summarized it better in the huge post to Elkhart in pre-vet ranting thread.

Anyways, there's definitely a thing of total abuse by management and total incompetence from colleagues as well as maybe naivete from the new worker who doesn't recognize they're being screwed...sometimes having people outsource their thinking onto you (instead of engaging one's brain) is in fact bs and I wish I had a time machine to undo it and counsel a younger, dumber (but healthier) me. Like people legit get into fatal car accidents or fatal MIs in their 30s and 40s because of this.

/digress

As it applies to medicine +/- vet med, I'd hope there isn't that much a disparity between two DVMs of equal experience levels to the point where one literally doesn't have the skillset or training as the other, but I do see management abusing DVMs and not respecting their time. The triple booking, the scheduling conflicts, going behind backs to override decisions on something... These employers need to burn out, not the docs, but it ends up being the docs burning out instead.

 

[DVMDream]

...But that assumes people are getting enough time to themselves to begin with, which is an entirely different issue and one that I have strong feelings about. Vacation time, adequate staffing levels, and overall flexibilty make for happy employees.

Yeah 6 weeks off in vet med doesn't happen.

Two weeks vacation is the most I have heard of and some people barely get that. And pending on your pay structure, 2 weeks vacation might actually destroy you despite the fact you have 2 weeks vacation. Pro-sal with negative accrual is brutal. You get a base salary but you have to make the clinic so much to be guaranteed that salary, if you make more than that amount, you get production on the extra. If you don't make enough in a particular month to match up with what you need to bring in for your salary that becomes "negative" and they will accrue a negative balance on you. Some clinics make you even pay that back at the end of the year.

So now toss in two weeks vacation. Can you really take two weeks with this model? That is two less weeks to make money in which to make your base salary and not fall into negative accrual. It is kind of a cruel joke. Yeah, you get two weeks vacation, but you almost have to pick up extra shifts before or after to "make up" for that lost time so that you don't slip into negative accrual.

Adequate staffing is comical as of late. And that has been across the board in clinics I have been in as well as through the vet groups I am a part of. Places are hurting hard for staffing.

Flexibility, well, when you are hurting for staffing, flexibility doesn't happen much.

I left my first job because I was expected to stay late all the time, work solo often and then when I asked to leave early or needed a half day they deducted my pay. This was a straight salary position so they wanted the benefit if my working late hours for them but not to give when I needed it.



You also have to remember that other industries don't deal with compassion fatigue, significant mental distress, constant emotional stress, roller coastering of emotions all day long non-stop. Other industries aren't sitting up at 3AM wondering if their patient is going to die because the pedicle slipped or if that was the right medication or if you should have done an additional test or if that DKA is going to pull through. When you have a highly emotional, mental, stressful, compassion fatigue inducing job being constantly "on call" or "contacted" is a whole heck of a different beast compared to other industries. So of course those industries aren't going to have the same suicide or mental health rates.

You might sit there and think it isn't a "big deal" to call a colleague about the struggling hospitalized pet on their day off, but now that colleague is going to be worrying about that pet all day. There will be no way for them to relax, no way to decompress, they are going to run through everything they did the day before for that pet, question themselves all day. This is what I mean. And you really won't understand this, until you start working. It is brutal and wears you out.

 

[PippyPony]

@Stroganoff I mean, of course. For any job, my underlying expectation/assumption is that there is mutual respect for everyone you work with, which means that people carry their own weight, pitch in willingly, and obviously don't abuse others.

The situations that are getting described here are examples of incompetent employees leeching off other people, or an understaffed/overburdened team that doesn't have enough people to split the work they are tasked with completing.

That is totally different from someone who is on a high functioning team interacting with another person on the team in a respectful, professional way.

 

[DVMDream]

In many jobs, including many vet jobs, people work in teams. It benefits everyone to be a good person to work with on a team. It is also very possible to have boundaries and enforce them without marching in and issuing demands like a solo mercenary (unless you're a locum vet and kinda are a mercenary haha).

I can't tell you how many times management and co-workers have used "you need to be a team player" to gaslight vets into doing things. Or coming in. So much so that I almost roll my eyes anymore when I hear the phrase "team player".

So many stories I have about how I apparently wasn't being a "team player" while simultaneously already drowning and not being offered help or assistance for the crap I was already buried under.

There is a difference between being a good person, supporting your team, and contributing to the team. Helping out when you can. Taking on that walk in for your colleague because you have the time and they are double booked, all things I have done and readily do. Versus being gas-lighted about being a "team player."

I wonder if your opinion on all this will adjust once you graduate and are actually working in the field instead of comparing it to a field where you had 6 weeks off, unlimited sick time, the freedom to work at home or from anywhere you wanted. Because those things don't occur in vet med.

 

[LetItSnow]

I can't tell you how many times management and co-workers have used "you need to be a team player" to gaslight vets into doing things. Or coming in. So much so that I almost roll my eyes anymore when I hear the phrase "team player".

So many stories I have about how I apparently wasn't being a "team player" while simultaneously already drowning and not being offered help or assistance for the crap I was already buried under.

There is a difference between being a good person, supporting your team, and contributing to the team. Helping out when you can. Taking on that walk in for your colleague because you have the time and they are double booked, all things I have done and readily do. Versus being gas-lighted about being a "team player."

I wonder if your opinion on all this will adjust once you graduate and are actually working in the field instead of comparing it to a field where you had 6 weeks off, unlimited sick time, the freedom to work at home or from anywhere you wanted. Because those things don't occur in vet med.

Ya.

And sometimes management even uses cheerful "way to come together as a team" type of emails to cover up for the fact that they really aren't doing their job of management.

You do have to be a team player on the floor. But it shouldn't be used as a stick to coerce people to do something.

It's like having a positive attitude at work. You should have one, but you shouldn't be dictating to people that they have to have one, because that's counterproductive.

 

[Stroganoff]

That is totally different from someone who is on a high functioning team interacting with another person on the team in a respectful, professional way.

Is there any harm in being unreachable on off days just to recharge? Assuming notes and charts are good, other docs should be able to take over existing patients right? I just don't see the emergency that someone has to answer their phone on their day off or SHTF. Hopefully that's what the on-call person is for.

Communicating expectations early (like before accepting the job) and enforcing boundaries are pretty paramount.

 

[PippyPony]

This is kinda why I want to work for myself or run a business lol

Come work for me in 15 years, y'all. I'll give you great time off, free snacks, a nap/meditation room, and a support network for the days when things be cray.

And @DVMDream very valid point about the other industries being less "mission critical" thing...but tbh one of the reasons why I left my old job (RIP vacation, I loved you) is because people still got stupid worked up about things that are not worth worrying about. So I figured that if people were going to get into a tizzy about work stuff (because apparently that is the nature of work and happens everywhere)... at least let it be something fundamentally important.

 

[battie]

That is totally different from someone who is on a high functioning team interacting with another person on the team in a respectful, professional way.

Why would a high-functioning team need to call a person on their day off? Setting the boundary from the get go that I'm not working on my day off is not disrespectful or unprofessional. I honestly cant see how it would be.

If anything it's good communication from the start so everyone is on the same page. They dont like it, they dont have to hire me; likewise, if they dont budge on that point, I dont have the accept the position. I'm all about open communication, which is what I've described here.

 

[Coopah]

Ya.

And sometimes management even uses cheerful "way to come together as a team" type of emails to cover up for the fact that they really aren't doing their job of management.

You do have to be a team player on the floor. But it shouldn't be used as a stick to coerce people to do something.

It's like having a positive attitude at work. You should have one, but you shouldn't be dictating to people that they have to have one, because that's counterproductive.

Holy crap, I've seen the Yeti! Nice to see you LIS, I hope things have been wonderful!

 

[LetItSnow]

Holy crap, I've seen the Yeti! Nice to see you LIS, I hope things have been wonderful!

Good and bad. Just a normal life with major ups and major downs. 🙂

 

[Coopah]

Good and bad. Just a normal life with major ups and major downs. 🙂

I hope more ups than downs! What've you been up to? Glad to see you 😀

 

[LetItSnow]

I hope more ups than downs! What've you been up to? Glad to see you 😀

Working as an ER doc (still) at a very busy referral hospital. Company got bought by BluePearl so now I am part of the corporate machinery, which has pros and cons.

Moved about 10 miles into a bigger newer home. Loving my new house, though I still have some rooms to remodel and decorate. Installed a kick ass sound system for my tv.

Some not so good stuff going on, but no need to bring people down going on about that.

Y'all are welcome to come sit on my deck around the fire table in spring and have drinks. Rumor has it @Lupin21 will be there, and she is way more interesting than me.

 

[PippyPony]

Is there any harm in being unreachable on off days just to recharge? Assuming notes and charts are good, other docs should be able to take over existing patients right? I just don't see the emergency that someone has to answer their phone on their day off or SHTF. Hopefully that's what the on-call person is for.

I mean, just don't pick up your phone (and if you're the caller, don't be pissed when your call isn't answered lol). And again, I wasn't talking about scenarios that people should be able to handle but can't/don't want to deal with.

I must not be doing a good job of conveying what I mean. Tbh my initial reaction to "don't ever contact me!!!!" was "yikes."

Like...you can have strong boundaries and still be reasonable & generally chill. That is all I was trying to get across.

 

[battie]

Like...you can have strong boundaries and still be reasonable and generally chill. That

I didnt honestly think I came across as not chill. It's a pretty reasonable request to not be contacted by work on my days off.

 

[DVMDream]

Woot woot a wild LIS!!

 

[PippyPony]

I'm going to stop talking because it appears I feel differently about this topic than most people here and as a result, I'm pulling us off the subject of what Strog initially wanted to talk about.

 

[Stroganoff]

I mean, just don't pick up your phone (and if you're the caller, don't be pissed when your call isn't answered lol). And again, I wasn't talking about scenarios that people should be able to handle but can't/don't want to deal with.

I must not be doing a good job of conveying what I mean. Tbh my initial reaction to "don't ever contact me!!!!" was "yikes."

Like...you can have strong boundaries and still be reasonable & generally chill. That is all I was trying to get across.

I had the same "yikes" reaction when reading your initial post:

I agree for the need for boundaries, and I'm glad you're pushing for what you need.

But as someone who worked a salaried job in a completely different industry before this...it's really not unusual to be expected to pick up the phone if your job calls you on your day off to ask you a question or get your input on something.

It's the difference between a salaried employee and an hourly employee/shift worker. Patients (like projects) don't evaporate at the end of a day, and vets function in a leadership capacity in a clinic setting. I don't think it's crazy for co-workers to want to be able to contact you if they are in a crunch.

(Note - I'm not saying they should expect you to drop everything and come in to work, and I think having adequate time off/personal days/flexibility is SUPER important to employee happiness. But tbh I probably wouldn't hire someone who wanted to be totally inaccessible whenever they're off. Doesn't feel reasonable or team-oriented in a real world context.)

We're all shaped from our past experiences, so this post just reads too corporate cookie-cutter HR/managerial type to me. It's such a trojan horse. Because one innocent phone call "Just wanted to pick your brain on something for a minute" turns into more questions and more texts and before you know it you just spent an hour or more on a conference call. Or you're being asked to work because "the on-call person needs more experience...be a team player now so next time we won't need to call you!"

*fetal position*

Nah, eff that. You're not truly "off" if work bugs you even just a little bit. People have no self control and once you're nice just once the floodgates are opened. You conditioned people into contacting you.

(Notice how we're being super black-and-white here?)

 

[DVMDream]

I'm going to stop talking because it appears I feel differently about this topic than most people here and as a result, I'm pulling us off the subject of what Strog initially wanted to talk about.

I am just curious to what things people should be calling the off duty vet about? Other than incomplete records, which I agree are fair game. Maybe I am misunderstanding what things you mean.

Heck, even seeing work call gets some vets anxiety through the roof and they continue to wonder what that call was about. So just the act of calling, even if the vet ignores it, can be detrimental to that vet.

Maybe if I know what scenarios you are thinking of I can understand what you mean better?

 

[Stroganoff]

I'm going to stop talking because it appears I feel differently about this topic than most people here and as a result, I'm pulling us off the subject of what Strog initially wanted to talk about.

Oh I totally piggybacked onto someone else's research paper is all. I was just curious about burnout and suicide and wondered about correlation and causation and the top couple things someone would change that would have the most positive impact.

 

[Stroganoff]

Heck, even seeing work call gets some vets anxiety through the roof and they continue to wonder what that call was about. So just the act of calling, even if the vet ignores it, can be detrimental to that vet.

100% commiserate. Separate personal and work cell phones helps and turning the work phone 100% powered off helps. I kinda recommend the practice even if work doesn't issue a "free" cell phone. Buy a second one. I have two personally owned phones now (one for close family/friends and one for "other") and W-2 jobs issue a phone so I've carried 3 phones before.

Currently I pay like $20-30/month total for both numbers.

 

[LetItSnow]

I had the same "yikes" reaction when reading your initial post:




We're all shaped from our past experiences, so this post just reads too corporate cookie-cutter HR/managerial type to me. It's such a trojan horse. Because one innocent phone call "Just wanted to pick your brain on something for a minute" turns into more questions and more texts and before you know it you just spent an hour or more on a conference call. Or you're being asked to work because "the on-call person needs more experience...be a team player now so next time we won't need to call you!"

*fetal position*

Nah, eff that.

(Notice how we're being super black-and-white here?)

People need to get past the notion that because we're dealing with living creatures that can change status quickly, that means their doctor has to be available 24x7.

If a patient's status changes in such a way it can't wait until tomorrow, that's why there are emergency rooms. It does not mean their primary doctor should be contacted when that person is on their private time. That is pennywise and pound foolish - they may help in a short term but long-term it will lead to burn out.

I think there is a little bit of a pendulum effect at work. For so many years veterinarians were expected to be available at any time of day. Now that that - appropriately - is swinging the other way, some newer vets are adopting an attitude of "never contact me at all when I'm not at work". They've gone so far into the quality of life issue that they perhaps are trying to push the pendulum too far the other way.

In reality, a phone call here and there every few months to clarify something should not be a big deal. Common sense, courtesy, respect. If each side has those, there won't be a problem.

I would not want to work with someone that literally told me they could never be contacted outside of work. But I would also be very cautious about contacting someone on their personal time.

 

[battie]

In reality, a phone call here and there every few months to clarify something should not be a big deal. Common sense, courtesy, respect. If each side has those, there won't be a problem.

I would not want to work with someone that literally told me they could never be contacted outside of work. But I would also be very cautious about contacting someone on their personal time.

My point of "I will not be contacted outside of work" was coming from the perspective of common sense. Like DVMD's example of missing records. Yeah, that makes sense. But a patient I saw yesterday with complete records available coming back in? Yeah, no. Again, as DVMD said, the doctor in clinic should be able to move forward with the case.

I also, honestly, dont trust the system. Where one clinic *does* respect a person's off time, others do not. As a new grad applying to jobs with a single in person or phone interview, I'll have no way of know what clinics will be which kind of clinic. Sure, certain clinics will have major red flags. But without having that direct conversation, it would be impossible to parse where a clinic sits on that spectrum.

 

[WildZoo]

Might be related to normal hormonal changes and not the dye? My sister and my mother both had very curly hair when they were young and their hair suddenly went straight in their late 20s/early 30s.

Omg this is my worst nightmare

 

[DVMDream]

People need to get past the notion that because we're dealing with living creatures that can change status quickly, that means their doctor has to be available 24x7.

If a patient's status changes in such a way it can't wait until tomorrow, that's why there are emergency rooms. It does not mean their primary doctor should be contacted when that person is on their private time. That is pennywise and pound foolish - they may help in a short term but long-term it will lead to burn out.

I think there is a little bit of a pendulum effect at work. For so many years veterinarians were expected to be available at any time of day. Now that that - appropriately - is swinging the other way, some newer vets are adopting an attitude of "never contact me at all when I'm not at work". They've gone so far into the quality of life issue that they perhaps are trying to push the pendulum too far the other way.

In reality, a phone call here and there every few months to clarify something should not be a big deal. Common sense, courtesy, respect. If each side has those, there won't be a problem.

I would not want to work with someone that literally told me they could never be contacted outside of work. But I would also be very cautious about contacting someone on their personal time.

Yeah, now that I am getting into a more specialized area of vet med, I have had vet friends contact me asking questions. I don't mind. It is far and few between. And now that I am going to be removed from GP, I definitely have asked friends questions of my own pet (also because I don't think logically about my own pet) but again few and far between. I had one friend helping me quite a bit with her and so I sent her candy and a plush microbe as thanks.

I really don't mind colleagues asking me questions as long as it isn't constant and as long as they don't expect instant replies.

 

[Stroganoff]

My HS friend's dad is a SA GP and they built a house and practice on the same property. It's about a 10 second walk between their house and the practice. I don't recall ever seeing his dad at home now that I think about it. Idk how common that is, but it's a recipe for burnout.

 

[LetItSnow]

My point of "I will not be contacted outside of work" was coming from the perspective of common sense. Like DVMD's example of missing records. Yeah, that makes sense. But a patient I saw yesterday with complete records available coming back in? Yeah, no. Again, as DVMD said, the doctor in clinic should be able to move forward with the case.

I also, honestly, dont trust the system. Where one clinic *does* respect a person's off time, others do not. As a new grad applying to jobs with a single in person or phone interview, I'll have no way of know what clinics will be which kind of clinic. Sure, certain clinics will have major red flags. But without having that direct conversation, it would be impossible to parse where a clinic sits on that spectrum.

That's fine, and that's your prerogative. You have to set the boundaries you are comfortable with. as an employer, though, if I heard someone say they literally never wanted to be contacted outside of work - I would interpret that as someone who was not very dedicated to my business. That may or may not be justified, but it would certainly raise red flags for me along those lines.

I would maybe go a little softer in your approach and ask things like how often do you expect to contact me in my off time, etc. But again, you have to do what is going to make you comfortable and allow you to have good quality of life.

 

[DVMDream]

That's fine, and that's your prerogative. You have to set the boundaries you are comfortable with. as an employer, though, if I heard someone say they literally never wanted to be contacted outside of work - I would interpret that as someone who was not very dedicated to my business. That may or may not be justified, but it would certainly raise red flags for me along those lines.

I would maybe go a little softer in your approach and ask things like how often do you expect to contact me in my off time, etc. But again, you have to do what is going to make you comfortable and allow you to have good quality of life.

How often does work call you on days off?

I can honestly say I have never be contacted on my days off. Minus the colleagues asking questions via Facebook messenger, but they aren't co-workers so I don't really lump that in the same category as work calling on my day off.

Guess I just never realized it was a "common" thing.

 

[battie]

I would maybe go a little softer in your approach and ask things like how often do you expect to contact me in my off time, etc.

This is the plan. While I know my opinion has come across pretty strongly here, this is a social setting. In a professional setting, I know I cant voice my preferences in the way I have here.

 

[LetItSnow]

How often does work call you on days off?

I can honestly say I have never be contacted on my days off. Minus the colleagues asking questions via Facebook messenger, but they aren't co-workers so I don't really lump that in the same category as work calling on my day off.

Guess I just never realized it was a "common" thing.

Well, I think the ER environment might be a little different? Just because it's routine for me to have 5 days off in a row, so there may be things at work that legitimately can't wait until I'm back in the office?

We try to minimize it by doing callbacks on each other's cases for lab send out some things like that, but.....

I don't get calls very often. Email is really how most contact is handled. I like that, because I can either check it or not check it. For urgent things I might hear from my boss once every month or two by phone or text.

I don't find it super onerous. I do agree that it can be anxiety inducing.

 

[LetItSnow]

And I agree, I don't count colleagues contacting me on Facebook and things like that. I'm either there and available and willing to help, or I'm not. There's no pressure.

 

[DVMDream]

Well, I think the ER environment might be a little different? Just because it's routine for me to have 5 days off in a row, so there may be things at work that legitimately can't wait until I'm back in the office?

We try to minimize it by doing callbacks on each other's cases for lab send out some things like that, but.....

I don't get calls very often. Email is really how most contact is handled. I like that, because I can either check it or not check it. For urgent things I might hear from my boss once every month or two by phone or text.

I don't find it super onerous. I do agree that it can be anxiety inducing.

I was just curious. I only did ER relief so I guess had they needed to know something I did they would definitely have to contact me as it could be months before I was back.

But as relief I became meticulous about records and probably overdid many records to be honest. But better too much information than not enough. I always did leave my number or email with clinics as relief in case I did forget a record or something, just because I felt that was appropriate.

 

[Lupin21]

I was just curious. I only did ER relief so I guess had they needed to know something I did they would definitely have to contact me as it could be months before I was back.

But as relief I became meticulous about records and probably overdid many records to be honest. But better too much information than not enough. I always did leave my number or email with clinics as relief in case I did forget a record or something, just because I felt that was appropriate.

Yeah, I only do relief ER once or twice a month, so I leave as detailed notes as I can.

 

[PippyPony]

Completely random: hearing "phylloerythrin" mentioned in a lecture makes me want phyllo dough aka baklava

 

[JaynaAli]

This is the plan. While I know my opinion has come across pretty strongly here, this is a social setting. In a professional setting, I know I cant voice my preferences in the way I have here.

I think this may be at the core of some of the dissention to what you said, at least for me. While I don't think we should be contacting people on their time off and I respect your desire to have it in your contract since things that are promised aren't always what happen, you stated it very matter of factly/bluntly and I imagined you walking into contract negotiations and just being point blank like 'yep, you calling me is not happening, put that in writing' and drawing a line in the sand which I could see a lot of people having a visceral 'nope' reaction to. From the employer side, even if I had no intentions of ever needing to contact you when you're off, I would be hesitant to put that in a contract because the world is unpredictable and if I did have a really really good, legitimate reason to need to contact you (power/internet is down and your regular patient is there for a follow up test but they can't access the record? idk), I would want to be able to try to reach you if I absolutely needed to. The blunt method seems a lot different than maybe approaching more subtly where you discuss how case handoffs and days off are handled, asking management or coworkers how often you would expect even possibly being contacted and if the answer is "never" asking for that in writing or walking away.

I don't get contacted outside of work. I leave when my cases are done and don't think about work again until I get there the next day. I don't check my work email in evenings or on weekends. I get 5.5 weeks of PTO a year that is 'use it or lose it' so we're strongly encouraged to take at least 90% of it. But I'm also in a much different segment of vet med than most. (Edit: the 'different segment' comment was about the PTO and actually taking it, not the being contacted outside of work part. Just to clarify.)

 

[battie]

I think this may be at the core of some of the dissention to what you said, at least for me. While I don't think we should be contacting people on their time off and I respect your desire to have it in your contract since things that are promised aren't always what happen, you stated it very matter of factly/bluntly and I imagined you walking into contract negotiations and just being point blank like 'yep, you calling me is not happening, put that in writing' and drawing a line in the sand which I could see a lot of people having a visceral 'nope' reaction to. From the employer side, even if I had no intentions of ever needing to contact you when you're off, I would be hesitant to put that in a contract because the world is unpredictable and if I did have a really really good, legitimate reason to need to contact you (power/internet is down and your regular patient is there for a follow up test but they can't access the record? idk), I would want to be able to try to reach you if I absolutely needed to. The blunt method seems a lot different than maybe approaching more subtly where you discuss how case handoffs and days off are handled, asking management or coworkers how often you would expect even possibly being contacted and if the answer is "never" asking for that in writing or walking away.

That's fair because I did come across as strong. By no means do i intend to walk into a clinic and make this demand at the outset. I know that would be a poor way to start out. Saying that there would be a "direct conversation" was too strong as well. "Honest" about my expectations would probably be a better way to state it. And like I said in my very first post, I'd be willing to adjust as needed cause beggars cant be choosers; and like I said in my response to LIS, common sense contact would be fine. I'm just wary of taking it at face value as well.

 

[Stroganoff]

you stated it very matter of factly/bluntly and I imagined you walking into contract negotiations and just being point blank like 'yep, you calling me is not happening, put that in writing' and drawing a line in the sand which I could see a lot of people having a visceral 'nope' reaction to.

I didn't read her that literally at all.

That's fair because I did come across as strong. By no means do i intend to walk into a clinic and make this demand at the outset. I know that would be a poor way to start out. Saying that there would be a "direct conversation" was too strong as well. "Honest" about my expectations would probably be a better way to state it. And like I said in my very first post, I'd be willing to adjust as needed cause beggars cant be choosers; and like I said in my response to LIS, common sense contact would be fine. I'm just wary of taking it at face value as well.

I actually read you spot on since it's pretty self-evident nobody would go in that brazenly direct and explicit. That sends the message that the person may not be a hard worker above-and-beyond type or conscientious of the team or even the least bit reasonable or personable. Unfortunately, on the flip side, even when approaching a topic in an interview (even tactfully and politely), there's nothing stopping an employer from straight up lying about something. My last place did that. I asked the question, and my boss and I took a field trip and he cherry-picked people all around a huge building "Hey, how do you like it here?" and of course everyone's all smiles and stuff even if the company is failing. They can't be honest since they'll be next on the chopping block or puts them in the crosshairs for abuse.

How do fresh DVMs fare as far as their bargaining power? Do y'all have to tolerate more abuse at least for the first job/first year or two? Or can you walk away from Job 1 if it gets a bit toxic and expect to get a better job?

 

[PippyPony]

If the boss is walking with you and asking people on your behalf to comment on how they like the jobs they currently have (and presumably would like to keep), that is red flag number one

 

[SkiOtter]

Or can you walk away from Job 1 if it gets a bit toxic and expect to get a better job?

I think it was @genny who said she left her first job real quick, like in the first week?

 

[vetmedhead]

If the boss is walking with you and asking people on your behalf to comment on how they like the jobs they currently have (and presumably would like to keep), that is red flag number one

I love your new profile picture!

 

[genny]

Do y'all have to tolerate more abuse at least for the first job/first year or two? Or can you walk away from Job 1 if it gets a bit toxic and expect to get a better job?

I think it was @genny who said she left her first job real quick, like in the first week?

Yes that was me. I knew there were red flags going into it, and I thought I could deal with it for a little while. But I couldn’t! Don’t ignore red flags. Something better always comes along.

 

[Coopah]

I didn't read her that literally at all.


I actually read you spot on since it's pretty self-evident nobody would go in that brazenly direct and explicit. That sends the message that the person may not be a hard worker above-and-beyond type or conscientious of the team or even the least bit reasonable or personable. Unfortunately, on the flip side, even when approaching a topic in an interview (even tactfully and politely), there's nothing stopping an employer from straight up lying about something. My last place did that. I asked the question, and my boss and I took a field trip and he cherry-picked people all around a huge building "Hey, how do you like it here?" and of course everyone's all smiles and stuff even if the company is failing. They can't be honest since they'll be next on the chopping block or puts them in the crosshairs for abuse.

How do fresh DVMs fare as far as their bargaining power? Do y'all have to tolerate more abuse at least for the first job/first year or two? Or can you walk away from Job 1 if it gets a bit toxic and expect to get a better job?

Yeah I've had issues with the lying. I straight up asked and large corporate company about typical appointment times and I knew the answer, but I was getting bad juju vibes and she straight up lied. Never doing that.

 

[PippyPony]

I love your new profile picture!

Thank you! I feel like I'm betraying the memory of my Yafa-cat but also felt it was time to give the boys a shoutout

 

[that redhead]

How do fresh DVMs fare as far as their bargaining power? Do y'all have to tolerate more abuse at least for the first job/first year or two? Or can you walk away from Job 1 if it gets a bit toxic and expect to get a better job?

Right now, associates are hard to come by and so have pretty good selection of jobs to choose from. I think how new grads are handled is quite variable based on the culture of the place. It is very common for new grads to leave their first job within the first year- I think VIN had a poll that concluded something like 40%? I wasn’t brave enough to leave my first job until about 2.5yrs in but have been infinitely happier at my second and wish I had left sooner (like @genny said, do not ignore red flags!)

I think the challenge for new grads is they don’t know what they want (beyond the more superficial things) or what’s going to be important to them as a practitioner until they’re out there in practice. That makes it hard for them to find a good fit initially be cause they don’t know what questions to ask, what things to look for, etc. Once they’ve been out in practice, they’re better able to evaluate a possible new job and tend to have better luck the second time around.