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ajs513 said:
Although I guess that depends on where you live. Where I live that would also be sort of a lowball offer if that also included production.
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I'd love a job to tell me I will guarantee you a $95k salary for only 40 hours of work. That would be a veterinary pipe dream. Instead it is..... I can guarantee you $85-90k, plus we will give you 20% production (if you make it, if you don't your salary will drop next year) oh and that production doesn't include food you prescribe, prescriptions you and only you can prescribe, rx refills that only you can approve, you also get dinged all discounted offers/promotions that we run from your production (all those free/discounted exams or specials that veterinary clinics run, yeah that is taken from the vet's pocket, they don't get paid full price for those things so even harder to get production when those things are being offered/run). Oh and your working hours will easily be at minimum 50 hours per week, likely longer because we never tell clients "no" and if you actually want a snowball's chance in hell in making production you need to see at least 25-30 pets a day and work those full 50 hours.


I don't make $95k and gave up on the production bonuses because the hours I had to work were driving me to complete mental and emotional exhaustion. A 40 hour work week is a LOT in a field that is physically, mentally and emotionally exhausting. I could easily probably make more than I do BUT I make good money and on average work 30-35 hours per week, sometimes less. I have had one 45 hour work week and that was to make sure I fit in all the shifts I agreed to work for the month with my taking two weeks off for vacation. The less hours worked is 156465654989% worth not making $95k.
 
This is a question that I'm not sure where it even belongs, but "Random Stuff" is on the top of my thread list so here it goes:

In regards to financial aid, is there a way to only accept a portion of the "award" given? Once fee schedules come out I plan on taking out in student loans only what I need to cover tuition and the required fees, no cost of living money (being older and married does have some perks in this game).

Or is this a scenario where I accept the full award and immediately pay back to the lender what I don't need?
 
ajs513 said:
Although I guess that depends on where you live. Where I live that would also be sort of a lowball offer if that also included production.
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They have about the same debt as us and are complaining that a starting salary that is HIGHER than our average starting salary, is low.
 
BravesFan said:
This is a question that I'm not sure where it even belongs, but "Random Stuff" is on the top of my thread list so here it goes:

In regards to financial aid, is there a way to only accept a portion of the "award" given? Once fee schedules come out I plan on taking out in student loans only what I need to cover tuition and the required fees, no cost of living money (being older and married does have some perks in this game).

Or is this a scenario where I accept the full award and immediately pay back to the lender what I don't need?
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Hasn't been applicable to me because I need all the money I'm offered so I am not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure we are given the option of accepting only part of the loan(s) and I kind of assume that's an option everyone has.
 
BravesFan said:
This is a question that I'm not sure where it even belongs, but "Random Stuff" is on the top of my thread list so here it goes:

In regards to financial aid, is there a way to only accept a portion of the "award" given? Once fee schedules come out I plan on taking out in student loans only what I need to cover tuition and the required fees, no cost of living money (being older and married does have some perks in this game).

Or is this a scenario where I accept the full award and immediately pay back to the lender what I don't need?
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Nope you only need to accept as much as you need. There should be a site asking you to accept your loans and there you should be able to tell them how much you will accept.
 
DVMDream said:
Pharmacists make production?
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No I meant if it’s a vet job in my area. Since usually you’ll find jobs that, including production, will gross >$100,000 a year. From talking to most vets around here, their first jobs got them around $115,000 including production. So $95,000 would be low.
 
ajs513 said:
No I meant if it’s a vet job in my area. Since usually you’ll find jobs that, including production, will gross >$100,000 a year. From talking to most vets around here, their first jobs got them around $115,000 including production. So $95,000 would be low.
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THATS NOT A NORMAL STARTING SALARY FOR A VET THOUGH. You’ve been told this multiple times. It may be “normal” in your area, but in the other 90% of the country it’s NOT. Stop trying to say it’s a normal salary. If the starting salary IS that high, it’s going to be a very high COL area too. So it evens out. Just stop saying it’s a very normal starting salary.
 
BravesFan said:
This is a question that I'm not sure where it even belongs, but "Random Stuff" is on the top of my thread list so here it goes:

In regards to financial aid, is there a way to only accept a portion of the "award" given? Once fee schedules come out I plan on taking out in student loans only what I need to cover tuition and the required fees, no cost of living money (being older and married does have some perks in this game).

Or is this a scenario where I accept the full award and immediately pay back to the lender what I don't need?
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Absolutely you can accept only as much as you want, and if you declined some, and then later the SAME semester you need that money, you can reaccept it. Fees are "prorated" based on how much you take. I have changed amounts prior to distribution (twice for same loan - less then back up again), and even called to find out when the latest I could change my mind to reaccept money was for a second loan I completely declined.
 
SkiOtter said:
THATS NOT A NORMAL STARTING SALARY FOR A VET THOUGH. You’ve been told this multiple times. It may be “normal” in your area, but in the other 90% of the country it’s NOT. Stop trying to say it’s a normal salary. If the starting salary IS that high, it’s going to be a very high COL area too. So it evens out. Just stop saying it’s a very normal starting salary.
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That’s not what I said though. I said that if they’re in an area like mine, that would be acceptable to decline. I didn’t say it’s the average salary or around average. You were laughing at the fact that people were saying to not accept the job paying $95,000 a year, but I’m saying that it could also be that they live in a high COL area. If so, even a vet being offered that position would be right to decline it.
 
ajs513 said:
That’s not what I said though. I said that if they’re in an area like mine, that would be acceptable to decline. I didn’t say it’s the average salary or around average. You were laughing at the fact that people were saying to not accept the job paying $95,000 a year, but I’m saying that it could also be that they live in a high COL area. If so, even a vet being offered that position would be right to decline it.
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you have said it multiple times before that it’s normal and it’s NOT.
I wasn’t laughing at them for not accepting it. I was astounded that they were complaining about a salary that is higher than the national starting average for our field and they have the same debt. Many people in this field would LOVE that salary starting out. THAT’S what I was saying. You’re the one who made it into a whole “woe is them” thing with how ****ty of an offer it is.
 
SkiOtter said:
you have said it multiple times before that it’s normal and it’s NOT.
I wasn’t laughing at them for not accepting it. I was astounded that they were complaining about a salary that is higher than the national starting average for our field and they have the same debt. Many people in this field would LOVE that salary starting out. THAT’S what I was saying. You’re the one who made it into a whole “woe is them” thing with how ****ty of an offer it is.
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And that’s fine. But I’m just saying I never said that it’s normal for the whole country to offer salaries of $100,000. I’m saying it’s pretty normal in high COL areas. That’s it. You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying, and I’m not going to let it devolve into this whole argument because we’re both talking about different things.
 
ajs513 said:
And that’s fine. But I’m just saying I never said that it’s normal for the whole country to offer salaries of $100,000. I’m saying it’s pretty normal in high COL areas. That’s it. You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying, and I’m not going to let it devolve into this whole argument because we’re both talking about different things.
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I think the confusion is because you brought up something that no one was talking about. Which made it seem like you entirely missed the point. No one was talking about high COL areas except you.
 
finnickthedog said:
I think the confusion is because you brought up something that no one was talking about. Which made it seem like you entirely missed the point. No one was talking about high COL areas except you.
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Ski was talking about how it’s crazy they’re all saying they should reject the offer. I said that if they’re in a high COL area, then it makes sense to reject the offer. And even for vets, if they’re in a high COL area then it would make sense to reject the offer. I was just bringing up an instance where that would make sense.
 
ajs513 said:
Ski was talking about how it’s crazy they’re all saying they should reject the offer. I said that if they’re in a high COL area, then it makes sense to reject the offer. And even for vets, if they’re in a high COL area then it would make sense to reject the offer. I was just bringing up an instance where that would make sense.
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Still never said any of that.
Did you even read ANY of the thread??? There’s other people in multiple areas who have had or heard of similar offers. Likely not because of a high COL area.
 
ajs513 said:
Ski was talking about how it’s crazy they’re all saying they should reject the offer. I said that if they’re in a high COL area, then it makes sense to reject the offer. And even for vets, if they’re in a high COL area then it would make sense to reject the offer. I was just bringing up an instance where that would make sense.
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Except she literally never said that?

All she did was share the post and say "other health care professions be like". Did you actually look at the post she shared for context? Because they were all pretty clearly talking about salaries in general.

So again, no one was talking about high COL areas except you. Not here or on the post that she shared. Which is why your responses were confusing.
 
SkiOtter said:
Did you even read ANY of the thread??? There’s other people in multiple areas who have had or heard of similar offers. Likely not because of a high COL area.
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I just read the first few entries, but I wasn’t trying to make this a big deal. I was just offering one reason why someone would decline an offer like that. I don’t appreciate the hostility, and I wasn’t trying to shoot you down or anything.
 
finnickthedog said:
Except she literally never said that?

All she did was share the post and say "other health care professions be like". Did you actually look at the post she shared for context? Because they were all pretty clearly talking about salaries in general.

So again, no one was talking about high COL areas except you. Not here or on the post that she shared. Which is why your responses were confusing.
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Again, just talking bringing up an instance where it would make sense to decline the offer. I’m not making a statement overall. Maybe it was out of place, but the hostility is seriously unwarranted.
 
SkiOtter said:
Nope. You kept saying that I said they were crazy for turning it down. Did not. Ever.
You have many times said that 100k is a normal starting salary. It is not. It is appropriate in a high COL area but it is NOT normal.
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The implication of your post was that it’s weird/crazy compared to vetmed to decline those salaries when the average salaries of vets is around $80,000. I didn’t literally mean you “said” that.
And I’ve said it’s normal depending on the area. I never said that it’s normal overall. The average takes into account rural vets making $50,000, so the average is a little deflated because of that. But I digress. My point is you came out guns blazing for no reason and it’s really unwarranted.
 
I dunno..... it does crack me up to go to that thread in the pharmacy forum and hear them all bitch about how awful $95k per year on a 40 hour work week is "absurd" for starting salary whereas here in vetmed.... that is most likely higher than you will get offered for starting salary your first year out. You might find higher (maybe and likely will only get higher if you hit production), you will probably find lower. Oh and we don't work only 40 hours a week.

I kind of want to go over there and be...... "it hurts, doesn't it? Welcome to the lives that veterinarians are accustomed to."
 
SkiOtter said:
Nope. You kept saying that I said they were crazy for turning it down. Did not. Ever.
You have many times said that 100k is a normal starting salary. It is not. It is appropriate in a high COL area but it is NOT normal.
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He has explained himself about five times now, at this point you're just willfully ignoring his posts for the sake of pointing out that you're technically correct. It's not contributing anything to the conversation to have both parties just repeat themselves like this and there are more productive conversations to be had here
 
ajs, might i suggest limiting your knowledge to published numbers or actual personal experience instead of hearsay?

you keep saying "according to vets in your area" but have you looked at what jobs are actually offering? or are you relying on unreliable info?

it doesnt matter if you think it's high or not, personally. You have a pair of rose colored glasses on about vet med in general and I worry about the day you come to grips with reality
 
dyachei said:
ajs, might i suggest limiting your knowledge to published numbers or actual personal experience instead of hearsay?

you keep saying "according to vets in your area" but have you looked at what jobs are actually offering? or are you relying on unreliable info?

it doesnt matter if you think it's high or not, personally. You have a pair of rose colored glasses on about vet med in general and I worry about the day you come to grips with reality
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I’ve looked it up and there are sources that say the average salary for a vet in NJ is $115,000, and average base is over $90,000. Which is in line with what I’ve heard from several vets regarding what they made starting out in this area. Maybe I’ll make less, i don’t know. But I’m not trying to start some wage war. I just know what I’ve found online and what I’ve heard from everyone I’ve spoken to as well as seen from jobs that are listed.
 
ajs513 said:
I’ve looked it up and there are sources that say the average salary for a vet in NJ is $115,000, and average base is over $90,000. Which is in line with what I’ve heard from several vets regarding what they made starting out in this area. Maybe I’ll make less, i don’t know. But I’m not trying to start some wage war. I just know what I’ve found online and what I’ve heard from everyone I’ve spoken to as well as seen from jobs that are listed.
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You do keep presenting this information in a way that can be misleading (I think unintentionally). just remember your area isn't anywhere near the average and is an outlier. I think this will help you in the future.
 
ajs513 said:
I’ve looked it up and there are sources that say the average salary for a vet in NJ is $115,000, and average base is over $90,000. Which is in line with what I’ve heard from several vets regarding what they made starting out in this area. Maybe I’ll make less, i don’t know. But I’m not trying to start some wage war. I just know what I’ve found online and what I’ve heard from everyone I’ve spoken to as well as seen from jobs that are listed.
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also is that for a new vet straight out of school or for all vets?

It just kind of feels like you're swaying the data to say what you want it to sometimes.
 
dyachei said:
You do keep presenting this information in a way that can be misleading (I think unintentionally). just remember your area isn't anywhere near the average and is an outlier. I think this will help you in the future.
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I understand. And I haven’t been insinuating that it’s near the average. I’ve specifically said multiple times that this is true for my area only in order to avoid that happening. But still I have the same couple people telling me over and over what i already know and have made clear.
 
ajs513 said:
I’ve looked it up and there are sources that say the average salary for a vet in NJ is $115,000, and average base is over $90,000. Which is in line with what I’ve heard from several vets regarding what they made starting out in this area. Maybe I’ll make less, i don’t know. But I’m not trying to start some wage war. I just know what I’ve found online and what I’ve heard from everyone I’ve spoken to as well as seen from jobs that are listed.
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Don't forget if this is including production that production isn't a guarantee, especially your first year out of vet school. It may happen but it may not happen.

Plus there is.... well, there is more there that you just don't know yet because you aren't looking at jobs and actually hearing all the details of the offers. What you see posted in a job ad may include what you are getting in terms of health insurance, 401k benefits, CE benefits, etc..... so they may list $115k but 25k of that is in benefits and not actual cash/take home pay.
 
dyachei said:
also is that for a new vet straight out of school or for all vets?

It just kind of feels like you're swaying the data to say what you want it to sometimes.
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The data is only available for vets on average. That’s why I’ve asked what’s reasonable for a new vet to make and most answered have said that base is usually in the $80,000-$90,000 range and with production you can easily break $100,000 as a new vet.
 
ajs513 said:
The data is only available for vets on average. That’s why I’ve asked what’s reasonable for a new vet to make and most answered have said that base is usually in the $80,000-$90,000 range and with production you can easily break $100,000 as a new vet.
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no you can't.

Because you don't make production that quickly. At minimum you shouldnt expect to make production for 6 months because of training, how long it takes you to get into the swing of things, etc.

I'm saying this as a practice owner and a previous corporate vet that worked on production and knows exactly how it works

so stop putting caveats on everything....which is what you did here. it's 80-90k. period. end of sentence. You can't "easily" break 100k as a new vet unless the stars align just right. Which they mostly don't
 
My gripe with the pharmacy thread is the literal ignorance of how well off their profession is due to the blinders they have on as a group. It's a pervasive problem in human medical profession where each subset of health care professionals thinks they have it worse. The dissonance "they" as a whole is pretty similar to the rich brats at my high school complaining about having to drive to the main high school in our district for AP Japanese, when 2/3 of my school needed to be on reduced lunch.

I'm all for people demanding what they're worth. I'm all so for people being aware that they as a collective aren't doing too shabby.
 
While they are acting like spoiled brats, I believe the issue is that they have historically been used to being valued and having higher salaries. They are now suddenly facing a problem of over saturation and being worth less, so I can see where the foot stamping is coming from. At least with us, we've always been given the short end of the salary stick. haha
 
DVMDream said:
I dunno..... it does crack me up to go to that thread in the pharmacy forum and hear them all bitch about how awful $95k per year on a 40 hour work week is "absurd" for starting salary whereas here in vetmed.... that is most likely higher than you will get offered for starting salary your first year out. You might find higher (maybe and likely will only get higher if you hit production), you will probably find lower. Oh and we don't work only 40 hours a week.

I kind of want to go over there and be...... "it hurts, doesn't it? Welcome to the lives that veterinarians are accustomed to."
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As a pharm student who switched into pharm from education, this is a massive upgrade, speaking purely financially lol. My work stays at work, I get paid for the hours I put in, and I get 2-3 times more base pay. The only downside is I have to work over the summer.

ETA: And the reason I almost never venture to the pharm side of SDN is because they're so negative. I get how saturated it is and how metrics suck and customers suck and managers suck and people suck but could y'all just CHILL for a second???
 
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capri1722 said:
As a pharm student who switched into pharm from education, this is a massive upgrade, speaking purely financially lol. My work stays at work, I get paid for the hours I put in, and I get 2-3 times more base pay. The only downside is I have to work over the summer.

ETA: And the reason I almost never venture to the pharm side of SDN is because they're so negative. I get how saturated it is and how metrics suck and customers suck and managers suck and people suck but could y'all just CHILL for a second???
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All this time I thought you were a vettie
I feel like you've been living a lie
 
capri1722 said:
metrics suck and customers suck and managers suck and people suck but could y'all just CHILL for a second???
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This is true in any field, especially ones where you work with customers. And especially especially ones where you work with sick customers/customers’ sick kids or pets. Things are going to suck sometimes (a lot of the time? Every of the time?) and that’s what we all signed up for. Embrace it or become eternally crabby!
 
ajs513 said:
This is true in any field, especially ones where you work with customers. And especially especially ones where you work with sick customers/customers’ sick kids or pets. Things are going to suck sometimes (a lot of the time? Every of the time?) and that’s what we all signed up for. Embrace it or become eternally crabby!
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The thing is it shouldn't suck all the time. It doesn't have to suck all the time. At least in veterinary medicine we have allowed it to suck for far too long that we are just "used" to people yelling, screaming, being rude and walking all over us. We need to stop it. Complacency and "embracing" the suck is not the answer. We deserve to be respected and if we don't collectively as a field come together and refuse to take clients' crap, we will continue to have a ****ty suicide rate.

We have got to stop worrying about pissing off the client because we won't take their crap. They will eventually learn that you play like a decent human or you don't get services. Period. If enough clinics refuse to put up with the bull**** we will notice people treating us better as a whole.
 
DVMDream said:
The thing is it shouldn't suck all the time. It doesn't have to suck all the time. At least in veterinary medicine we have allowed it to suck for far too long that we are just "used" to people yelling, screaming, being rude and walking all over us. We need to stop it. Complacency and "embracing" the suck is not the answer. We deserve to be respected and if we don't collectively as a field come together and refuse to take clients' crap, we will continue to have a ****ty suicide rate.

We have got to stop worrying about pissing off the client because we won't take their crap. They will eventually learn that you play like a decent human or you don't get services. Period. If enough clinics refuse to put up with the bull**** we will notice people treating us better as a whole.
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I totally agree that as a whole, we take too much crap that we probably shouldn’t, and veterinarians bear the brunt of that because they’re the ones making the health care decisions for pets. And it’s extremely unfair and often emotionally charged because the owners are in a very volatile place with their pets’ health. But my question is is it as easy (not to say it’s easy, but simple maybe?) as just standing up to clients? I’m genuinely asking because, being newer to the field than anyone who’s currently a veterinarian, I haven’t experienced it too much yet. Yea I’ve experienced as frequently as most other people, but not for as long and not to the degree that veterinarians do. So I’m just wondering.

But I do think that dealing with “customers” in any facet will always be less than ideal no matter what. There are a lot of “Karen’s” asking to speak to managers, whether it’s at Old Navy or at a hospital or vet clinic or pharmacy. And that’s not to say that what vet med is dealing with is just a few overly demanding people. Obviously there’s a bigger problem.
 
Hiiiiiii!

Average starting salary in my area is $65k for a new grad. I started at less than that.

I know I don't live in NYC but I'm pretty sure this number is better in line with the rest of the country - you know, the majority of it, the part between the two coasts?
 
twelvetigers said:
Hiiiiiii!

Average starting salary in my area is $65k for a new grad. I started at less than that.

I know I don't live in NYC but I'm pretty sure this number is better in line with the rest of the country - you know, the majority of it, the part between the two coasts?
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The coast is the best coast!!! 😉
 
ajs513 said:
But my question is is it as easy (not to say it’s easy, but simple maybe?) as just standing up to clients?
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Yes. It really is that easy. Making people behave and treat others in line to the expected common decency is just standing up to overly demanding clients and teaching them to behave or fire them. If the majority of profession did this, then these clients will toe the line to get the care their pet needs.
 
CoffeeQuestionMark said:
All this time I thought you were a vettie
I feel like you've been living a lie
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You're like the third or fourth person to tell me that :laugh:
I used to have my school in my tagline and if you googled it, it would bring up the pharmacy school specifically, not the school as a whole. And then I decided I'd rather pretend I have some anonymity lol.
 
capri1722 said:
You're like the third or fourth person to tell me that :laugh:
I used to have my school in my tagline and if you googled it, it would bring up the pharmacy school specifically, not the school as a whole. And then I decided I'd rather pretend I have some anonymity lol.
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Somewhat related: One of my IRL friends has a recluse brother and it became so common for someone to ask her "Wait, you have a brother??" whenever she mentioned him that it became a running joke in our friend group.
 
@katashark bump! :headphone:

tenor.gif


giphy.gif


fdd.gif
 
Elkhart said:
Ha. I mean, you guys joke, but... I know I've considered it. Vet school debt sucks. Granted, I guess I'm in kind of a unique situation compared to everyone else here, but still.
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Hopefully in 10+ years or so you can look back and see it as a blessing. I know it sounds weird, but so is life.
 
Stroganoff said:
Hopefully in 10+ years or so you can look back and see it as a blessing. I know it sounds weird, but so is life.
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Maybe. I mean, I think on it and realize that if I had finished and graduated, with my conditions already being what they are, I probably wouldn't have survived my first year in practice, in all honesty. In that sense, I guess it is a bit of a blessing.

I also really do enjoy my current day job despite the low pay (most days, anyway), and I like that my interaction with non-medical staff (ie. patients, families, etc.) is limited which wouldn't been possible in vet med, in retrospect, especially in a GP setting. I do like freelancing, too, even if the stream of work isn't always steady.

Basically, as much as I miss the science and medicine aspects, I don't know that my particular personality and mental health challenges would have meshed well with the demands of being a working DVM; it's something that I couldn't have fully comprehended simply through my shadowing experiences, unfortunately, and it just sucks that I had to get into six figures worth of debt for nothing for me to realize it. I do at least have my BS and, truth be told, the weight of the debt is more psychological than financial at this point thanks to PAYE. It's more my impostor syndrome and sense of non-belongingness in vet school being validated, and just my feeling like an utter ***** and a failure and all that fun jazz.

Things are at least stable now, though. Those first few months were rough.
 
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