Wondering how far down you have heard someone matching. Recently heard of someone matching their 11th choice. Heard of anything lower? Just wondering at what point it becomes futile.
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Futility? Futile would be not submitting a rank list. Across all specialties, there are people that match at the last rank on their list everywhere - and, you know what? Those people still become orthopods and dermies and eyeballs and FM docs and EM docs here in the pit.
Your question is quizzical, because, if someone ranks 15, and matches at #15, or ranks 5 and matches at #5, it was not "futile" in either case.
Every year, med students think they are smarter than people that went in front of them. Every year, there are med students that "believe the hype". They believe when PDs say "I love you" and "the check is in the mail" and other sundries. Every year, there are people that "suicide match" - rank only one program. Every year, there are people that "suicide match" that don't match at that solitary program.
So, no matter how far down someone goes on their individual rank list, it is never futile if one matches. You're supposed to rank any program where you would go (akin to the Grouch Marx quote of "I would not join any organization that would have me as a member"). That's it. If you would rather go unmatched, and not train in your chosen career, then that is futility.
Your question is quizzical, because, if someone ranks 15, and matches at #15, or ranks 5 and matches at #5, it was not "futile" in either case.
Every year, med students think they are smarter than people that went in front of them. Every year, there are med students that "believe the hype". They believe when PDs say "I love you" and "the check is in the mail" and other sundries. Every year, there are people that "suicide match" - rank only one program. Every year, there are people that "suicide match" that don't match at that solitary program.
So, no matter how far down someone goes on their individual rank list, it is never futile if one matches. You're supposed to rank any program where you would go (akin to the Grouch Marx quote of "I would not join any organization that would have me as a member"). That's it. If you would rather go unmatched, and not train in your chosen career, then that is futility.
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We had people go as low as 8 and 10 on their list. We also had people who listed 15 and didn't match (different field). My interpretation for this was to interview at as many places as you are genuinely interested in and rank every place that you interviewed at. Keep in mind that some apply to 20 and get 20 interview offers, while other apply to 80 and get 4 interview offers.
At our school from what I know, few got their number one, most got in their top 3, and few went below 5 to as low as 7 or 8 as far as I know. Also, it didn't seem to correlate with how "strong" of an applicant they were oddly enough, which I guess could support the notion that once in the door for an interview, its fit over numbers.....although that is an n of 12 or so.
I ranked 21 programs (couples' match) and we both matched at the same hospital in our top third. We are both very happy.
Not really understanding what you mean by "futile." I feel like this is coming from some misunderstanding of the match algorithm? Here is a link to a very good article that explains it:
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/about_res/algorithms.html
You should rank ALL of the programs you interview at. You cannot afford to be picky when it comes to this field anymore. I know of one person who "suicide ranked", and ranked only 2 programs and luckily got in. I know of another person who purposely did not rank our home institution and DID NOT MATCH.
Not really understanding what you mean by "futile." I feel like this is coming from some misunderstanding of the match algorithm? Here is a link to a very good article that explains it:
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/about_res/algorithms.html
You should rank ALL of the programs you interview at. You cannot afford to be picky when it comes to this field anymore. I know of one person who "suicide ranked", and ranked only 2 programs and luckily got in. I know of another person who purposely did not rank our home institution and DID NOT MATCH.
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OP...these threads may be useful:
This year: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=991343
Last year: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=884054
This year: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=991343
Last year: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=884054
I guess my question is more just wondering is it worth it to rank 20+, 25+ programs if you are able to. I would honestly be thrilled to match EM at all, anywhere over a non-match situation. Basically what I'm asking is: is there a point to interviewing and ranking a place that might be #15 if nobody has ever matched their #15th choice?
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No, it would not be worth interviewing at 20-25 programs. At some point, it becomes impossible, both logistically and economically.
Of course there are decreasing marginal returns to adding each program. But you're looking for a hard number, and that's just not something you can get. The NRMP Charting The Outcomes will come out sometime in the next 6 months or so, and that will give you a lot more info. Personally, I ranked 13. The last two programs that I ranked, I really didn't like (because of location). I also cancelled/declined 14 interviews. My advisor told me that 10-12 would be plenty (and it was), but I decided that I wanted to see what 13 different programs had to offer (and I'm glad I did).
You have to accept that you cannot 100% guarantee your match, no matter how many places you rank. There are some people with 260+/260+/AOA that are sociopaths and can interview at every residency and not match. There are some people that are great and just slip through the cracks. You have to decide what number you can live with, rank that many, then let it go.
Straight from an intern at a program I interviewed at..... "My friend interviewed at 14 places, and got her 14th. She cried on match day."
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Do whatever you want man. If you can score 20-25 interviews and can afford/justify the need to do them all then go do it. Who cares what anyone else says.
I will say this though, if you are competitive to get 25 interviews (assuming you don't apply to 130 programs), then in all likelihood you will match in your top 10 spots about 99.9% of the time.
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my friend interviewed at 13 places and didn't match... (different field). I'm not going to lie, that scared me a lot. Out of all of my friends applying this past year they were the last person I thought wouldn't match, let alone at one of their top programs.
I also know 2 solid EM applicants from my school who didn't match at all...
From what I hear 10-12 seems like a good goal, but you have to keep in mind that things are getting increasingly competitive each year.
I also know 2 solid EM applicants from my school who didn't match at all...
From what I hear 10-12 seems like a good goal, but you have to keep in mind that things are getting increasingly competitive each year.
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Rank every place you interview at unless there's a glaring reason not to (ie the PD punched you in the face during your interview).
A very talented buddy of mine didn't rank three programs and ended up not matching. Would he have been crying on match day if he'd ranked these three places and matched at one of them? Maybe. But he would have gotten over it.
Instead he got to be nearly speechless, remorseful, and a complete mess while being jerked around during the SOAP (who wouldn't be?).
A very talented buddy of mine didn't rank three programs and ended up not matching. Would he have been crying on match day if he'd ranked these three places and matched at one of them? Maybe. But he would have gotten over it.
Instead he got to be nearly speechless, remorseful, and a complete mess while being jerked around during the SOAP (who wouldn't be?).
Yup, this is what happened at my school as well (makes me wonder if you're my classmate actually
). About a dozen of us applied. A few got their first choice- mostly those who chose to stay here, put it number 1, had campaigned hard with the PD and chairman to stay (had a very good reason to want to stay here) etc. For the rest, most got number 3ish, some lower, some higher. It didn't seem to depend on the strength of the applicant or even of the program (one of my friends didn't get into his number one- arguably mid-tier program- but got into probably one of the best programs in the country, which was number 3), it just kinda happened that way. I'd rather be safe than sorry.Just wanted to comment on this point briefly. I know of someone who did this as well and it created a lot of bad blood in the department. I didn't know this, but apparently it's viewed as a huge faux pas to not apply to your home program, or so it was explained to me when the drama blew up about this kid who didn't apply. I always figured it was just dumb not to because hey, it's not like you have to spend extra money on a flight, the interview is mellow cause they're people you already know and it's just extra interviewing practice- you can always just not rank them or rank them dead last if you don't want to go here and none will be the wiser- but apparently more than just dumb, it's straight up rude and seen as "burning bridges" before you even start your career. Or so it was explained to me when I asked what all the fuss was about.
Anyways, OP, I'll tell you my story and you tell me what you think- I was told I probably wouldn't match EM at all. There were ~a dozen EM applicants from my school (we're pretty small, so this is a big number for us) and EM just keeps getting more and more competitive. I applied pretty much everywhere. Got invited to 25-28 interviews maybe and ended up going on 19 or so I think, I forget. I ranked all 19. Matched at #3.
Conclusion? Did I overapply? I don't know. If you asked most of the administration, they would have told you no, they actually told me to apply to a second specialty as a backup. Did I over-interview? I mean, once I got the interviews, I went on as many as I could stomach, to as many places as I could feasibly see myself living in. Didn't fall desperately in love with any of them (probably a good thing), they all had pros and cons. Only really hated three of them- one because of the people, two because of the training. I still ranked them because I didn't want to get to Match and be at the mercy of the SOAP. Matched at my number 3, just glad for it to be over, glad to have survived this brutal year. I'll tell you I was scared up until the very last minute. I don't know that I would have felt super confident had I ranked say, 10 places. Not that I really expected to drop to number 18- if anything I figured it was more likely that I wouldn't match at all if that makes sense, like, if I wasn't good enough for the first 15 on my list, there was no reason I'd be good enough for the last 4. But still, I would have felt dumb not ranking everything. And I would have felt dumb not having a really comfortable cushion in there. I just don't regret it at all. I have a bunch of leftover folders and all that now, and I'm certainly a lot poorer than I would have been had I interviewed less, but I'm ok with that.
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These don't jibe - unless "the administration" to which you refer isn't EM. If the faculty - that selects interviewees - says you probably won't match, and you get 28 interviews, it's either one of two things (well, there are a few other possibilities): either they have ZERO idea/knowledge of what they are doing, or, it's like when people have an INR of 3.5 and still throw a PE, and we (figuratively) throw our hands in the air.
The administration I was referring to was our dean (not EM), so it's pretty accurate to say he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. I think he was mostly hedging his bets based on the increasing competitiveness of the field and the fact that he's never liked me (and he probably extended that to a general "this student is not likable" assumption). My school is also pretty high ranked, and our students tend to match pretty well, at big-name programs etc. He seems to equate "not going to match at Harvard" with "not going to match at all" sometimes and gets a little fatalistic. However because we tend to do well both from an interview and a match perspective, most students from my school tend to apply to 30-40 places, interview at only the top 10, and match very well. So when he looked at my application, realized I likely wouldn't get interviews at the "top 10" (not that he would even know what the top 10 programs for EM are...if anyone does, really) he threw up his hands and said I had no shot. He forgot there are about 80 other programs no one from my school has ever applied to.
As for the EM faculty, most said I may have some trouble, but I should be able to match somewhere. I think they were still surprised that I received as many interviews as I did.
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My anecdotal evidence suggests that it was more common this year for people to receive less interviews than expected and that fewer people received their #1 choice. Agree with fahimaz in the sense that if you're a strong enough applicant to attract 25 interviews, you probably are strong enough to not necessarily need to go on 25 interviews as you are a highly probably match regardless (all bets are off if you're really weird in interviews).
If we're discussing personal stories I'll relate mine...I'm a DO and I felt like I was a fairly competitive applicant in the ACGME match (not SDN derm by any means but still pretty decent I think). I was told by my advisor's that I would basically be throwing my money away if I applied to more than 30 programs. I'm pretty neurotic so I decided that the extra money on more applications was worth the money. I think my goal going into the season was to get to 10 interviews as soon as I could and then only go on my last 2-3 if there was a legitimate possibility the program would rank high on my list (by virtue of location and other things important to me). If I applied to strictly 30 programs I think I would have still met my quota but by applying to a few more, I got some latitude in terms of being able to turn down a few interviews.
Point being is that if we're talking about match strategy, I'm not so sure that the concern should be how many places you can rank. If you apply to every program in the country, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to get at least 20 interviews depending on your metrics. I think if you look at the probability of matching with the number of ranks, there comes to a point of diminishing returns and I would be surprised if that number extended beyond the late single digits or early teens (8-13). I think if you really want to match well and don't have the 2-4k+ to apply to 100+ programs and subsequently interview then it's more important that you invest some time in researching programs. Apply to the programs where you feel like you would have some interest in doing residency, but realize that some programs are more coveted than others.
If we're discussing personal stories I'll relate mine...I'm a DO and I felt like I was a fairly competitive applicant in the ACGME match (not SDN derm by any means but still pretty decent I think). I was told by my advisor's that I would basically be throwing my money away if I applied to more than 30 programs. I'm pretty neurotic so I decided that the extra money on more applications was worth the money. I think my goal going into the season was to get to 10 interviews as soon as I could and then only go on my last 2-3 if there was a legitimate possibility the program would rank high on my list (by virtue of location and other things important to me). If I applied to strictly 30 programs I think I would have still met my quota but by applying to a few more, I got some latitude in terms of being able to turn down a few interviews.
Point being is that if we're talking about match strategy, I'm not so sure that the concern should be how many places you can rank. If you apply to every program in the country, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to get at least 20 interviews depending on your metrics. I think if you look at the probability of matching with the number of ranks, there comes to a point of diminishing returns and I would be surprised if that number extended beyond the late single digits or early teens (8-13). I think if you really want to match well and don't have the 2-4k+ to apply to 100+ programs and subsequently interview then it's more important that you invest some time in researching programs. Apply to the programs where you feel like you would have some interest in doing residency, but realize that some programs are more coveted than others.
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I dunno, I got pretty vague answers when I went to my home department with questions on where and how many places to apply to. I was a pretty solid applicant and while they did say I'd match, I was still told to apply to at least 30 places. It turns out this was a standardized recommendation from them as virtually all of my friends got the same advice.
At first I thought they were basically copping up out on giving advice, but when my home aPD began to explain the reasoning it kind of made sense. He basically said that most applicants from our school get interviews at 30-70% of the places they applied. Every year they get stumped and a few superstar applicants only get 5-10 interviews while some of the more average applicants exceed a return of 80%. Rather than revive the crystal ball every year, they're now suggesting being more liberal with sending out applications and then canceling interviews later if you have that luxury.
Logistically it did make more work for me, but I matched where I wanted to. Given how competitive EM is becoming, I'd probably give the same advice to most applicants if I were in my adviser's shoes (or even err on the side of pessimism).
Yeah, interestingly one of my good friends had the exact opposite experience. He was a great candidate, super likable guy, no red flags whatsoever. Applied to 35 places as recommended. Only got 5 interviews. Matched at his number 1, thankfully, which was our home program, but it looked pretty hairy there for a while. I'm still not 100% sure of what happened there, but I'm guessing the issue was that he applied to the same 35 places everyone else from my school did, they only interviewed 2-3 people from the school, and he only made the cut at 5 of them.
Moral of the story, I'd argue that if it's an especially popular year for EM in your class, it might be smart to be extra broad in your apps just in case.
Moral of the story, I'd argue that if it's an especially popular year for EM in your class, it might be smart to be extra broad in your apps just in case.
Yep.
My very biased, completely unscientific advice would be this:
Boards < 230 WITH red flags--> (really low boards, failures, etc) Apply to as many as possible and go to as many to as possible
Boards< 230 with no red flags (boards probably close to 220s or so)--> Apply to 40-50 or so depending on location (maybe a few more on the west coast)
Boards > 230 WITH red flags--> of course it depends on the red flag and your explanation of it, but 50 or so would probably get you a decent # of interviews.
Boards >230 no red flags--> Apply to 30 because its economically not impractical and a good number to likely ensure 10+ interviews.
My point really being I think that your boards and red flags (or lack there of) get you in the door for the most part.
Ok- Now everyone can respond about why this is ridiculous....which it may be, but again, JUST how I see it from my experience.
P.S. I received 21 interviews ended up cutting my interviews after my 10th as I felt good about my top 5 (good vibe during interview and/or positive feedback) and was done with travel/spending money..... I questioned it for a few days, sure, but then moved on and it worked out for me. If your not getting good vibes, I say interview at every single place if you can afford it.
As for not ranking them all....Had I interviewed at any more places, I definitely would have not ranked a couple places because I disliked them that much for either location or program.... but all in all I felt like I wanted to have double digits on my rank list so I ranked them all.
For a solo match applicant, it is the same cost to rank 1 - 20 programs. I would rank every place unless you rather go unemployed than be at that program.
All residency programs are getting more competitive. As much as we all one of our top choices, you probably would be able to survive 3 - 4 years at any place. I ranked every place - I want to be an EM doctor rather than go unmatched.
All residency programs are getting more competitive. As much as we all one of our top choices, you probably would be able to survive 3 - 4 years at any place. I ranked every place - I want to be an EM doctor rather than go unmatched.
You can rank 100 programs for the same price if you wanted to. The cost is in the initial application to those programs and interviewing there. So yeah...you have a great point, if your goal is to be an EM physician then rank every program you interview at, unless you absolutely HATE a certain program and would rather go unmatched than end up there.
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Naww you get charged for every program over 20 on your ROL apparently.
Really? Damn. My bad...
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All good, they gotta suck money out of us every way possible after all.
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I liked the $65 fee to send my transcripts electronically.
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They've been increasing "fees" for everything since I was even applying to medical school. Back when I was applying, I first thought that I had to get together all the applications, write my personal statements, be organized about the whole thing, and then get all the paperwork together in big manila envelopes and send 'em off.
Then I learned that I had to register with my University's "Medical School Program Service" ($) and pay them for each school and application that I wanted to organize and send ($). I was really capable of doing it all myself; getting letters of rec, asking for transcripts, filling out the demographic info and paperwork... but nope.... they just haaad to do it FOR you, 'cause.... you know.... you can't be trusted with something as simple as filling out and submitting an application.
Makes me so mad.
Then I learned that I had to register with my University's "Medical School Program Service" ($) and pay them for each school and application that I wanted to organize and send ($). I was really capable of doing it all myself; getting letters of rec, asking for transcripts, filling out the demographic info and paperwork... but nope.... they just haaad to do it FOR you, 'cause.... you know.... you can't be trusted with something as simple as filling out and submitting an application.
Makes me so mad.
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I mean, I don't begrudge the ERAS program or the NRMP - they offer a decent service. Unfortunately, they're monopolies that seem to be cash cows. I hope in the next few years, they shift to using interviewbroker.com more - that site was pure gold.
Great... something else in this process where I say to myself "Huh? What the hell is that and how does it factor in??" after realizing I've never heard a thing about it before. Can you shed some light?
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Lol. Don't sweat it, it's something that will make your life better and takes no effort. It's a website set up by a third party that programs pay to use to extend interview invitations. You get an email from them and a unique link allowing you to select your interview from the available dates. You select a date from the website. It's constantly updated so you can't sign up for a date that isn't available and it also lets you reschedule your interviews. It basically cuts out the program coordinator for scheduling, rescheduling, declining and canceling interviews. When the interviews start coming in, it becomes a very dynamic process and you have to constantly shift your schedule.
I know I sound like a spokesman, but I really do wish all of the EM programs used it. About 1/3 to 1/2 of the programs at which I was invited to interview used it and it was great.
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Ahh... that does sound awesome and much more efficient. Thanks!
It's kind of an intriguing system all around really.
It's theoretically feasible to get the last spot on your #1 programs match list. But if perhaps one person ahead of you gets that spot, you might go unranked if the chips fall the wrong way.
All the people out there who match at their 4 or 5, might have been just as close to matching at their 10 or 11, but you can never know. The bottom line is just interview at ~12 or more if you want, and rank them all. If you don't get 12 interviews, then just go on all those offered to you and make the most of it!
From what I know there was a program that had an unfilled spot. There might have been one person out there who didn't match at all, but also chose not to rank that same program. Everyone loses.
It's theoretically feasible to get the last spot on your #1 programs match list. But if perhaps one person ahead of you gets that spot, you might go unranked if the chips fall the wrong way.
All the people out there who match at their 4 or 5, might have been just as close to matching at their 10 or 11, but you can never know. The bottom line is just interview at ~12 or more if you want, and rank them all. If you don't get 12 interviews, then just go on all those offered to you and make the most of it!
From what I know there was a program that had an unfilled spot. There might have been one person out there who didn't match at all, but also chose not to rank that same program. Everyone loses.
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I think not ranking programs is a luxury few people have now. I didn't rank 1 program but looking back at it, it really was a poor decision and I would definitely would encourage everyone to rank every program they interview at.
At the end of the day, there is now "right" answer. You gauge your competitiveness as best you can, but no one really knows what's competitive. You decide how many places you want to apply to based on a variety of factors including finances, program characteristics that you want, etc. You'll get invited to interviews...you'll go on however many you chose to, for some that will mean all, for others that will mean cancelling. Then rank everywhere you'd accept as better then not matching, which honestly should be nearly every place.
People are looking for concrete numbers, but there's no right answer. More applications gives you more potentials for interviews. More interviews equals more programs to rank. More programs to rank = higher probability of matching.
The best statistic I found when I looked at this a couple of years ago was this:
for the 2011 match, of people who RANKED 15 programs, 100% matched
of the people who ranked 10 programs I think somewhere around 95% matched
so you can do the math.
EM is getting more competitive so maybe those numbers have changed, but it hasn't changed that much, and those are pretty good numbers.
People are looking for concrete numbers, but there's no right answer. More applications gives you more potentials for interviews. More interviews equals more programs to rank. More programs to rank = higher probability of matching.
The best statistic I found when I looked at this a couple of years ago was this:
for the 2011 match, of people who RANKED 15 programs, 100% matched
of the people who ranked 10 programs I think somewhere around 95% matched
so you can do the math.
EM is getting more competitive so maybe those numbers have changed, but it hasn't changed that much, and those are pretty good numbers.
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I am sure this data does not apply to DOs, so for the OP (and as was true for myself), shotgun your application and attend every interview you can stomach.
