Rank the 5 Hardest Universities for Pre-Meds

[Ad2b]

P/F easier if the % to P is = to 70% or the top of the bell curve 🙂

@md-2020 -- we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. MIT does have >>> Nobels than U of MN - Twin Cities. My definition of a state school is one in which it is dedicated to the state's residents more or less, U of MN TC is definitely NOT that. Duluth, Crookston, Mankato, et al are that.

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[ZedsDed]

I don't see as many MIT transcripts as I used to but I seem to recall that freshman year is entirely pass fail meaning that freshman grades don't factor into one's GPA. Does that make it easier or harder as a pre-med? Discuss.

I don't even...

 

[md-2020]

I've heard JHU does the same thing as MIT first semester; any truth to this?

Nope JHU isn't nice like that. I have friends drop out of BME/pre-med after getting Cs their first semester.

I think there's a "covered grades" option that you can opt into for your first semester but for AMCAS purposes it'll be uncovered.

 

[LizzyM]

Gladly


Easier. Freshman year is about so many different new things... adjusting to college life, finding social niches, joining ECs, etc etc. It's hard to crush academics and do everything else as well. But it's still MIT....which makes the overall experience hard af. Would not like my chances there.


If you cut my freshman year out I go from 3.7/3.5 to 3.8/3.65. I know many others are probably similar in this regard.

Many applicants have a GPA dip in sophomore year so cutting out freshman year would actually cause a drop in cGPA.

 

[md-2020]

Many applicants have a GPA dip in sophomore year so cutting out freshman year would actually cause a drop in cGPA.

Interesting, you hear about bad starts to college so often. Would this be the "orgo dip"? Hard to imagine any other explanation for decreasing college performance....

 

[Goro]

Kyoto University
The University of Tokyo
Pierre and Marie Curie University - Paris
University of Copenhagen
Karolinska Institute

I was just wondering what people think the hardest undergrads to be a pre-med at are. Not the best undergrads, but just the ones that make pre-med the toughest. Things like vicious grade deflation, ultra-competitive gunners, brilliant students, etc.

Places that come to mind like WashU, Hopkins, etc...

 

[efle]

Lol welp it was only a matter of time you found his way into this thread and my post.

I said what I said. If you disagree then you disagree. That's fine. But I would actually encourage you to into these schools like Harvard's OChem and Bio classes and their grade distributions and the quality of students in them before whining about grade inflation and just randomly speculating "oh the University wide scale that includes every class is high so that must mean the upper levels are a joke then". Anyway though, this topic's been beaten to death I don't have much more to add, it's pretty clear where everybody stands, there's not much more that needs to be said.

I was on this thread before you lol

Ochem? Bio? Those are prereqs. Reread my post, I said I'd readily believe those few classes remain lower, but that I don't buy the school wide median can be A- while the science departments overall hold deflated averages. So in short, sure the prereqs can be totally unaffected, but your sGPA still gets padding. I don't buy that it's possible as a humanities-only phenomenon. Agree to disagree indeed

What about it? All I'm seeing is that GPAs that would be insta-reject from State U are successful for WUSTL applicants. What's your point? I didn't deny that there is grade deflation, only that it is well managed; you are not on your own. At Princeton, you have several advisers per student, close access to all of you professors, faculty mentors etc. At any other school your grade deflation would be met with a shrug and "life sucks."

Ah, I misread your post about putting Princeton being too high as "it's not actually that hard to get A's because of all the support there". If you mean it is harder to get A's but in turn it is easier to get a lot of other app-boosters then I very much agree

 

[efle]

Harvey Mudd also used to do (maybe still does?) Pass/fail first year. I think the idea is to try and foster collaboration that will persist once grading starts, and also to avoid layering feelings of academic inadequacy on top of all the other freshman year stress

 

[WingedOx]

People go about this all wrong. No name public schools. That is where you do not want to go. Places like Wash U, JHU and UChicago might have reputations for being tough but at least the diploma gives you instant credibility and the schools can give you all of the resources you need to succeed. If you were lucky enough to get in after high school, you are probably set. As has been shown quite clearly before, students from prestigious deflationary schools have no problem getting into medical school but I have a hard time believing people from unrecognized public schools are having a good time getting into medical school considering most of the top medical schools are populated almost exclusively by people from 5 institutions

How many kids from Directional State are scoring 32+ on the MCAT though?

 

[LizzyM]

How many kids from Directional State are scoring 32+ on the MCAT though?

A couple years ago I interviewed a guy from one of those "directional state" schools. He had a 43 MCAT IIRC which put all doubts to rest.

 

[ZedsDed]

People go about this all wrong. No name public schools. That is where you do not want to go. Places like Wash U, JHU and UChicago might have reputations for being tough but at least the diploma gives you instant credibility and the schools can give you all of the resources you need to succeed. If you were lucky enough to get in after high school, you are probably set. As has been shown quite clearly before, students from prestigious deflationary schools have no problem getting into medical school but I have a hard time believing people from unrecognized public schools are having a good time getting into medical school considering most of the top medical schools are populated almost exclusively by people from 5 institutions

Prestige trumps rigor though. Yes, schools that have reputations for deflation and also happen to be prestigious tend to send a lot of kids to med school. But there are plenty of rigorous unknown schools out there that only send a small percentage of their kids to any med school, let alone top schools.

 

[WingedOx]

A couple years ago I interviewed a guy from one of those "directional state" schools. He had a 43 MCAT IIRC which put all doubts to rest.

...which really pushes the argument that the lack of output is 2/2 the students and not the schools themselves.

All else being equal, a state's flagship public school is unlikely to significantly more expensive than the lower tier public. There aren't going to be many star students who are choosing to attend Eastern Michigan when UofM is right down the road and costs (about) the same.

However, there are of course other variables. I know plenty of kids who took full rides, played sports etc, at "where the hell is that university" and did fine for themselves in the med school admissions process.

 

[altblue]

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[efle]

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Sometimes I wish I did too, even if just to free up some time for Dota2 😉

 

[NotYou20]

Would it though? A B.S. in Biology from MIT is still a B.S. in Biology. Even if the student is going for engineering, he/she wouldn't really need to go MIT to land a good engineering job. I mean you can't just go to any school, but it doesn't have to be MIT caliber to have plenty of engineering job opps.

I'm assuming that the student is not doing bio because they want other options (semi srs). yeah you'll get a job and can get really good internships in engineering or computer science but they're not all that common and are really competitive. Still, it'll be harder to get a really good job. I really doubt the opportunities are as great as at an mit.

As a side note, chem e and business makes provide great opportunities (more than other programs) if you take advantage.

Careful there. U of MN - Twin Cities is an internationally acclaimed research institution where the professors, if tenure track, are demanded to do research (in various areas including: mole bio, genetics, 3-D hearts). If you are not doing research and/or are not published, you get adjunct and contract.

I just don't think that's anything special.

@md-2020 I've usually seen state schools distinguished between flagship and other campuses. Just because they aren't elite doesn't mean there isn't a meaningful difference.

 

[Gandyy]

I equate state school with no researching faculty and easy admission for freshman; U of MN Twin Cities is neither of those. The others mentioned are.

Wait what. I can agree with the "easy admission for freshman" part, but Large public state schools are often extremely invested in well established research programs with various institutes and departments dedicated to multiple disciplines. With these large state schools, almost every single professor is heavily invested in their own research project.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

Careful there. U of MN - Twin Cities is an internationally acclaimed research institution where the professors, if tenure track, are demanded to do research (in various areas including: mole bio, genetics, 3-D hearts). If you are not doing research and/or are not published, you get adjunct and contract.

U of MN - Duluth, Crookston = state schools in the traditional sense
Mankato, Moorhead, Bemidji, ... = state schools in the traditional sense

As to the other comment on a 3.8 at U of MN = 3.4 MIT, eh. No. I would take the Rhodes scholar in their physics department against most of the MIT people.

I am well aware of what UMN is, i grew up in Minneapolis and I went there for part of my undergrad.

Your notion of what a "state" school is seems to be internally created. Yes, there are different levels of state schools. UMich, UVa, Berkeley, UMN, IU, UF are all highly respected state schools (and of course there are many more that I'm leaving out) that place a large emphasis on research. Research and state school are not mutually exclusive. There are tenure tracks at pretty much every single 4 year institution that require research, even the small liberal arts college that I received my bachelors from. Even schools that have admittedly low standards for admission.

But I do see what you are saying, some state schools are less focused on researxh while there are some that place a great emphasis on it, and the dichotomy seems to be clear between the upper echelon and the rest. However I also think all of this lies along a continuum.

 

[WingedOx]

I am well aware of what UMN is, i grew up in Minneapolis and I went there for part of my undergrad. Furthermore, my dad did his undergrad and PhD there, and my uncle did his undergrad and MD there. I am quite aware of what the school is about. So thanks for your insider information.

Your notion of what a "state" school is seems to be internally created. Yes, there are different levels of state schools. UMich, UVa, Berkeley, UMN, IU, UF are all highly respected state schools (and of course there are many more that I'm leaving out) that place a large emphasis on research. Research and state school are not mutually exclusive. There are tenure tracks at pretty much every single 4 year institution that require research, even the small liberal arts college that I received my bachelors from. Even at schools that have admittedly low standards for admission.

Plus I'm not sure how having mandated faculty research results in better undergraduate education. One is probably better off at a place like Carleton or St. Olaf where faculty are judged on their ability to... teach.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

Plus I'm not sure how having mandated faculty research results in better undergraduate education. One is probably better off at a place like Carleton or St. Olaf where faculty are judged on their ability to... teach.

I agree. I left U Mn because my professors seemed to care more about their research than actually teaching the class. Not saying it's a bad school, just wasn't the fit for me. I actually ended up at a school similar to those you mentioned, and in my opinion it was actually HARDER to get good grades there than it was at UMn, which I know would probably surprise many people.

I am surprised at your awareness of St Olaf in particular, do you happen to be from the Midwest?

 

[7331poas]

Id probably wager that the difficulty of your undergrad stems from your program rather than your school. Math/Engineer/CS/Physics is going to be more difficult than those who chose something more along the lines of the biology psychology sociology route.

 

[WingedOx]

I agree. I left U Mn because my professors seemed to care more about their research than actually teaching the class. Not saying it's a bad school, just wasn't the fit for me. I actually ended up at a school similar to those you mentioned, and in my opinion it was actually HARDER to get good grades there than it was at UMn, which I know would probably surprise many people.

I am surprised at your awareness of St Olaf in particular, do you happen to be from the Midwest?

I went to a liberal arts school that was probably even more obscure than St. Olaf. I tell people that if an MD is in your future, an LAC is the way to go, but convincing 18 year olds to pack up for a campus that's (usually) in the middle of nowhere and has fewer student than their high school is always a tough sell.

 

[Ad2b]

Your notion of what a "state" school is seems to be internally created.

You are correct.

I based it off of other things I'd read on here and stand corrected. Thank you!

 

[altblue]

Sometimes I wish I did too, even if just to free up some time for Dota2 😉

Lol, you caught it in time.

Definitely. While there's a couple of (glaring) exceptions, it helps that I'm okay with my classes at least.

 

[nolookpass]

Not really relevant but I actually think a 3.42/ 34 from an Ivy League school could be competitive for lower tier MDs. At WASHU: 49/67 pre-meds with that science GPA(3.29) and MCAT range were accepted. If you think that's peculiar to WASHU, over 60% at Cornell and Vanderbilt with those stats were also accepted.


Your point obviously still stands. The level of average person goes up in each class. Many average students from pre-reqs drop pre-med all together. And even being AVERAGE at an Ivy League school is rather difficult. This is something people miss entirely; you are beating out half a class where the majority are vals/sals and have a 1500 median. You are beating out a decent number of those people just to be average.

Where do you get these numbers from for particular undergrad institutes? I'd love to check out my own schools numbers/info.

 

[md-2020]

Where do you get these numbers from for particular undergrad institutes? I'd love to check out my own schools numbers/info.

Pre-health advising office


WUSTL was just generous enough to post their guide online.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Pre-health advising office


WUSTL was just generous enough to post their guide online.

You can find other schools like Cornell, Vanderbilt, Emory and UCLA if you google enough. Alot of schools info has gotten taken down in recent years like Duke and Michigan(or it might exist still I just haven't found it)