Rank the 5 Hardest Universities for Pre-Meds

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I know what school you're talking about :p. Harvard's median MCAT for their applicants is actually lower than that. I don't want to throw out specifics until I dig up my source, but yeah. Also, a school's reputation matters quite a bit. Compare the acceptance rate for kids from your school with your GPA with kids form my alma mater with a similar GPA.
http://www.career.ucla.edu/Students/Resources-Reports-and-Media/Med-School-Stats

This is more an exhibit of the California Effect on Pre-Meds Chances than Anything else. And god damn, 109 applications and not one single acceptance from Stanford for anybody from UCLA last cycle?

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And MD2020 look at the wustl vs national average regarding the Princeton over hype. Clearly having all sorts of premed support at your disposal does NOT counteract the difficulty spike from competing against a 99th percentile student body
What about it? All I'm seeing is that GPAs that would be insta-reject from State U are successful for WUSTL applicants. What's your point? I didn't deny that there is grade deflation, only that it is well managed; you are not on your own. At Princeton, you have several advisers per student, close access to all of you professors, faculty mentors etc. At any other school your grade deflation would be met with a shrug and "life sucks."
 
Lol welp it was only a matter of time you found his way into this thread and my post.

I said what I said. If you disagree then you disagree. That's fine. But I would actually encourage you to into these schools like Harvard's OChem and Bio classes and their grade distributions and the quality of students in them before whining about grade inflation and just randomly speculating "oh the University wide scale that includes every class is high so that must mean the upper levels are a joke then". Anyway though, this topic's been beaten to death I don't have much more to add, it's pretty clear where everybody stands, there's not much more that needs to be said.

Even if the hard science prereqs are deflated, so what? That's, what, 20% of one's GPA? That leaves you with 80% of easy As.
 
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This is more an exhibit of the California Effect on Pre-Meds Chances than Anything else. And god damn, 109 applications and not one single acceptance from Stanford for anybody from UCLA last cycle?
Tell me about it:(. To be fair this is only self-reported data, but Stanford tends to look down on us UC applicants (bastards...)
 
Stanford tends to look down on us UC applicants (bastards...)
Or maybe it's just super hard to get into Stanford SOM :p

Small class size ftw

If it makes you feel any better they aren't exactly kind on my school either. I think we had like 2 acceptances, 1 matriculation last cycle from a similar # of apps (and lets not forget that 34-5 average MCAT...:))

On the other end of the spectrum a couple years ago ('13 cycle) Stanford Med had 19 Stanford grads, 11 Harvard, 11 Yale, and 7 MIT. 48/102 from those 4 schools :D
 
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Lol youre smarter than this
He makes a point though. Assuming you get by in your pre-reqs (getting a D cannot be blamed on grade deflation lol), you can definitely artificially boost your GPAs. I did so significantly.
 
Even if the hard science prereqs are deflated, so what? That's, what, 20% of one's GPA? That leaves you with 80% of easy As.
Science prereqs are ~40-45 units. Assuming you have about 120 total units, you are looking at about 1/3 "deflated" units in such a scenario.
 
I had a professor say on day 1 that they don't give A's period. Possible exceptions included: being a grad student in his lab.

Yes, I and others complained to the Dean. We were told that this professor was tenured and had been encouraged to retire for several years, but nothing could be done because the professor had X publications and Y years of seniority and had written Z books.....so congrats on that C+, hope your GPA didn't mean much....

I'm sure others on this forum have similar horror stories.
I ask my professors if they are one of those types in the first week and if so I droppy drop their class.
 
I go to a fairly high up/competitive public state U, and have never had a single curve in any of my science courses, median was always a C. Meanwhile, my friend at an Ivy had curves in all but 2 of them. We ended up getting similar grades.

This is why I honestly think comparing GPAs is ridiculous in the first place. Looking at personal trends is a good idea, but even comparing students who took the SAME class at the SAME school but in different semesters or professors brings in a lot of error and variability. Let alone different schools.

The MCAT should be the main thing since it's the only thing equal across the board. The amount if people with 3.8+ GPAs who bomb the MCAT makes this painfully obvious.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Science prereqs are ~40-45 units. Assuming you have about 120 total units, you are looking at about 1/3 "deflated" units in such a scenario.

I doubt EVERY SINGLE ONE of your prerequisites, including labs, is going to be a ruthless weed out. Usually it's one or two classes per school. I thought I was being very generous with 24 credits.
 
I do not disagree with you. Western Idaho A&M State vs MIT is not a comparison. However I think that someone capable of pulling a 3.4 at MIT is definitely capable of getting a 3.8 at somewhere like University of Minnesota which is a very respected public state school. If I had the goal of getting into any medical school, I would attend the U of Mn over MIT because a 3.8 will get your application more looks than a 3.4, no matter where that 3.4 came from. There is only so much an admissions committee member can take into account when considering grades. There is no possible way for them to come to the conclusion "well, little Jerry here had a 3.4 at MIT, therefore he was capable of getting a 3.8 at most other schools." It doesn't work like that, they don't have leeway to make those judgements because there are so many other factors they must consider. Maybe Jerry from MIT gets more benefit of the doubt on his 3.4 than Suzy at University of Minnesota would get for her 3.4, but for Kayla and her 3.8 at University of Indiana there is no doubt to even need any of this contemplation. Do you see what I mean? Yes a 3.4 at MIT is probably seen in a better light than a 3.4 at (most) state schools, but a 3.8 at most state schools will beat that 3.4 every time because you don't even need to give them the benefit of the doubt to begin with.

And as far as resources and connections, these are available at most schools. Yes MIT will give you more resources to push you over the top to get you into Harvard stanford Yale, but that will not help 90% of medical school applicants who are not capable of getting into those schools even with those connections. There are boundless research opportunities as essentially every major state college and many smaller colleges as well. Most state achools have all the resources anyone could want, you just have to go find them. And having a "connection" really does not help that much for medical school admissions (I know you didn't explicitly mention this, I just thought it was pertinent here). As Goro always says, a connection will get you a courtesy interview and a swift waitlist at best if you are not otherwise qualified (and if you are qualified then you would have gotten the interview regardless of the connection). For the vast majority of medical school applicants the mantra "it's not what you know, it's who you know" does not apply.
I agree with your reasoning here, but I think pre meds entering college should consider the very good chance that they either decide against medicine or aren't competitive. Yeah schools like Minnesota are probably easier to get into a med school (maybe not an elite one) from, but you'll have a few more non medicine options at MIT.
 
I doubt EVERY SINGLE ONE of your prerequisites, including labs, is going to be a ruthless weed out. Usually it's one or two classes per school. I thought I was being very generous with 24 credits.

Ask any premed at my school and they'd say that evey science course was a weed out course. So many professors aren't fans of premeds/prepharm students because they feel like they're wasting their time teaching us since we don't want to be chemists, biologists or what have you. Swear some enjoy watching premeds/prepharm students dropping like flies.
 
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Yeah I guess I just don't agree. Maybe take a class outside of the Bloodbath that is State Schools in Cali and perhaps take one at a generic State U in the middle of Louisiana or South Carolina or something and see how different the quality of competition is and where the vast majority of the class didn't even finish in their top 5% of their HS class and the majority not even top 10%.

Main point I guess is anybody who has a 3.2 at say UCLA or Michigan or UVA or something is fooling themselves and in denial if they think getting into an IVY league school would have just magically cured their woes like that.


For your large public state school.... its a lot less than that even. The caliber of student is just not the same as your Ivy League. When your pre-med class goes from 2k kids in freshman year to like 70 (lol) junior year..........

As for the MCAT being the "great equalizer", what about people who are just bad at standardized testing? Its not exactly a test that creates a completely even playing field like many on here portray it to be.

Dont get me wrong, its more of an even playing field than someone's GPA is, but it still has its problems.
 
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I thought I might throw in a few thoughts here. They're going to be disjointed, so bear with me.

1. The difference between UVA and random state school is somewhat big. The difference between honors college UVA and regular UVA is enormous. UVA sent people to a lot of top schools this year (for instance: Cornell, Duke, Penn, WashU, and probably a few others). These kids all came from the honors college, where they turned down Ivies/equivalents to go to UVA. Their SAT scores were sky high, they graduated top of their class in high school, and they're doing really big things at really good schools. The "safety" med school for honors college kids is UVA (think about that for a second). There is no functional difference between the honors college UVA kids and your average Ivy Leaguer.

2. At my Ivy undergrad, our median MCAT score for applicants was between a 33 and 34 two years ago. This is based on data sent to the premed office by applicants, but nearly everyone sent your score (you had to say send your score before you either took the exam or got your scores back, I don't remember, so I think this may help account for any sort of self-selection skew). Even if you didn't choose to send your scores (they really emphasized everyone doing so), you had to present them to get a letter from the premed office (which accounts for nearly every applicant - we have it structured so these letters only help you and we don't screen, so you can't be denied, but they office needs the full story). Caveat is that these scores I'm quoting are from a couple years ago, so I'm not sure how that's changed. I don't know our average score for accepted applicants, only applicants in general. People here tend to score pretty well on standardized tests.

3. Nearly all of our intro and mid level science classes are B (sometimes B+, but that's for random stuff like some math courses, biochemistry 2, and some physics classes). Our upper level classes in chem and physics are usually B/B+ as well. In biology, our upper level classes have higher grades than our low/mid level ones (probably A-, sometimes B+). However, these are seminar classes that are all about writing grants, critiquing papers, or is the class where you write your thesis (which takes up nearly all of your senior year). They're not (for the most part, I can think of one class that was an exception, but the professor was retiring that year and just made it super easy) "easy As" for the first part. They consist of the top of the top of the people in the major who are going onto graduate school and want further background in being scientifically literate. Obviously the thesis is not an "easy A" so I'm not going to even go there. For these seminar classes, you can only take them if you have a certain number of lower/mid level biology classes (enough to ensure that you're at the very least getting a minor in biology - in my seminar, everyone was a bio major and I had probably taken the least number of biology classes of everyone in the class), so it's not going to have a huge impact on your GPA by that point in time (after you've survived the gauntlet of lower/mid level classes). People will generally only take one of these upper level courses, two if they're doing a thesis and are ambitious (I took one + thesis, so two total). But by that point, your GPA is pretty much set. I got a 4.0 my senior year in college and my GPA literally improved by 0.01 points. Not any sort of substantial difference.

4. Humanities classes tend to have A- medians on average. For AMCAS, that is a 3.7. I'm only speculating because I only know distributions for the classes I took myself, but in the ones I took (which were widely spread across the board because I was doing an interdisciplinary program that included classes from like 5 different humanities departments), 80ish percent of people got A-s, 10% got As and 10% got B+s. That means for most people, you're getting a nice 3.7 tacked onto your GPA, which, if this is your HIGH grade, not what you want. Remember that a 3.7 OVERALL is the national median GPA for accepted applicants.

FOR KICKS AND GIGGLES

I just went through my transcript and totaled up what an average student would have gotten taking my schedule from freshman to junior year (when I applied). By average student I mean one who got the median grade every time (I have access to these medians). Guess what they would have gotten? A 3.42. Does that sound like a competitive GPA for medical school? If you want to break it down further, the sGPA would have been a 3.29 (just below a B+ median). AO would have been 3.73 (just above an A- median). Around 2/3 of the credits were science and 1/3 of the credits were humanities. Now, let's be generous and give the applicant a 34 on their MCAT. Does a 3.42/34 sound competitive? This is statistically what the average applicant from my school would have. Our median accepted GPA (per the premed office) is a 3.55. I don't know what the median accepted MCAT is, but I would guess (pure speculation, no data to back it up) it's between 33 and 35, inclusive.

This is probably a pretty average distribution of classes for a traditional premed student from my school. Most of my friends from college are applying with a GPA between 3.4 and 3.7. The few that applied with above a 3.7 are all at top 20 schools.

tl;dr

Someone with my class schedule would have, if they were an average student at this Ivy League school, applied to medical school with a 3.42/3.29. Remember that they are competing against a cohort that ranks among the brightest and most motivated students in the world. Does this make it seem any easier?

 
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For your large public state school.... its a lot less than that even. The caliber of student is just not the same as your Ivy League. When your pre-med class goes from 2k kids in freshman year to like 70 (lol) junior year..........

As for the MCAT being the "great equalizer", what about people who are just bad at standardized testing? Its not exactly a test that creates a completely even playing field like many on here portray it to be.

Dont get me wrong, its more of an even playing field than someone's GPA is, but it still has its problems.

MCAT is definitely not perfect, but a better comparison for minimum cutoffs than GPA.
 
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I thought I might throw in a few thoughts here. They're going to be disjointed, so bear with me.

1. The difference between UVA and random state school is somewhat big. The difference between honors college UVA and regular UVA is enormous. UVA sent people to a lot of top schools this year (for instance: Cornell, Duke, Penn, WashU, and probably a few others). These kids all came from the honors college, where they turned down Ivies/equivalents to go to UVA. Their SAT scores were sky high, they graduated top of their class in high school, and they're doing really big things at really good schools. The "safety" med school for honors college kids is UVA (think about that for a second). There is no functional difference between the honors college UVA kids and your average Ivy Leaguer.

2. At my Ivy undergrad, our median MCAT score for applicants was between a 33 and 34 two years ago. This is based on data sent to the premed office by applicants, but nearly everyone sent your score (you had to say send your score before you either took the exam or got your scores back, I don't remember, so I think this may help account for any sort of self-selection skew). Even if you didn't choose to send your scores (they really emphasized everyone doing so), you had to present them to get a letter from the premed office (which accounts for nearly every applicant - we have it structured so these letters only help you and we don't screen, so you can't be denied, but they office needs the full story). Caveat is that these scores I'm quoting are from a couple years ago, so I'm not sure how that's changed. I don't know our average score for accepted applicants, only applicants in general. People here tend to score pretty well on standardized tests.

3. Nearly all of our intro and mid level science classes are B (sometimes B+, but that's for random stuff like some math courses, biochemistry 2, and some physics classes). Our upper level classes in chem and physics are usually B/B+ as well. In biology, our upper level classes have higher grades than our low/mid level ones (probably A-, sometimes B+). However, these are seminar classes that are all about writing grants, critiquing papers, or is the class where you write your thesis (which takes up nearly all of your senior year). They're not (for the most part, I can think of one class that was an exception, but the professor was retiring that year and just made it super easy) "easy As" for the first part. They consist of the top of the top of the people in the major who are going onto graduate school and want further background in being scientifically literate. Obviously the thesis is not an "easy A" so I'm not going to even go there. For these seminar classes, you can only take them if you have a certain number of lower/mid level biology classes (enough to ensure that you're at the very least getting a minor in biology - in my seminar, everyone was a bio major and I had probably taken the least number of biology classes of everyone in the class), so it's not going to have a huge impact on your GPA by that point in time (after you've survived the gauntlet of lower/mid level classes). People will generally only take one of these upper level courses, two if they're doing a thesis and are ambitious (I took one + thesis, so two total). But by that point, your GPA is pretty much set. I got a 4.0 my senior year in college and my GPA literally improved by 0.01 points. Not any sort of substantial difference.

4. Humanities classes tend to have A- medians on average. For AMCAS, that is a 3.7. I'm only speculating because I only know distributions for the classes I took myself, but in the ones I took (which were widely spread across the board because I was doing an interdisciplinary program that included classes from like 5 different humanities departments), 80ish percent of people got A-s, 10% got As and 10% got B+s. That means for most people, you're getting a nice 3.7 tacked onto your GPA, which, if this is your HIGH grade, not what you want. Remember that a 3.7 OVERALL is the national median GPA for accepted applicants.

FOR KICKS AND GIGGLES

I just went through my transcript and totaled up what an average student would have gotten taking my schedule from freshman to junior year (when I applied). By average student I mean one who got the median grade every time (I have access to these medians). Guess what they would have gotten? A 3.42. Does that sound like a competitive GPA for medical school? If you want to break it down further, the sGPA would have been a 3.29 (just below a B+ median). AO would have been 3.73 (just above an A- median). Around 2/3 of the credits were science and 1/3 of the credits were humanities. Now, let's be generous and give the applicant a 34 on their MCAT. Does a 3.42/34 sound competitive? This is statistically what the average applicant from my school would have. Our median accepted GPA (per the premed office) is a 3.55. I don't know what the median accepted MCAT is, but I would guess (pure speculation, no data to back it up) it's between 33 and 35, inclusive.

This is probably a pretty average distribution of classes for a traditional premed student from my school. Most of my friends from college are applying with a GPA between 3.4 and 3.7. The few that applied with above a 3.7 are all at top 20 schools.

tl;dr

Someone with my class schedule would have, if they were an average student at this Ivy League school, applied to medical school with a 3.42/3.29. Remember that they are competing against a cohort that ranks among the brightest and most motivated students in the world. Does this make it seem any easier?

Not really relevant but I actually think a 3.42/ 34 from an Ivy League school could be competitive for lower tier MDs. At WASHU: 49/67 pre-meds with that science GPA(3.29) and MCAT range were accepted. If you think that's peculiar to WASHU, over 60% at Cornell and Vanderbilt with those stats were also accepted.


Your point obviously still stands. The level of average person goes up in each class. Many average students from pre-reqs drop pre-med all together. And even being AVERAGE at an Ivy League school is rather difficult. This is something people miss entirely; you are beating out half a class where the majority are vals/sals and have a 1500 median. You are beating out a decent number of those people just to be average.
 
I agree with your reasoning here, but I think pre meds entering college should consider the very good chance that they either decide against medicine or aren't competitive. Yeah schools like Minnesota are probably easier to get into a med school (maybe not an elite one) from, but you'll have a few more non medicine options at MIT.
Would it though? A B.S. in Biology from MIT is still a B.S. in Biology. Even if the student is going for engineering, he/she wouldn't really need to go MIT to land a good engineering job. I mean you can't just go to any school, but it doesn't have to be MIT caliber to have plenty of engineering job opps.

Ask any premed at my school and they'd say that evey science course was a weed out course. So many professors aren't fans of premeds/prepharm students because they feel like they're wasting their time teaching us since we don't want to be chemists, biologists or what have you. Swear some enjoy watching premeds/prepharm students dropping like flies.

lol well to be fair, it's always the pre-health kids that ask in the middle of lecture, "So I understand how important ____ is, but how would this concept show up on the exam? What kind of question would you ask us?"
I care about grades, too, but some pre-health people have no shame at all.
 
Not really relevant but I actually think a 3.42/ 34 from an Ivy League school could be competitive for lower tier MDs. At WASHU: 49/67 pre-meds with that science GPA(3.29) and MCAT range were accepted.

Your point obviously still stands. The level of average person goes up in each class. Many average students from pre-reqs drop pre-med all together. And even being AVERAGE at an Ivy League school is rather difficult. This is something people miss entirely; you are beating out half a class where the majority are vals/sals and have a 1500 median. You are beating out a decent number of those people just to be average.

My school is not nearly as grade-deflating as WashU (or at least isn't known to be), so maybe, maybe not. The people in the 3.4s who I know got accepted (which is a very small number) had 36+ MCAT.
 
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My school is not nearly as grade-deflating as WashU (or at least isn't known to be), so maybe, maybe not. The people in the 3.4s who I know got accepted (which is a very small number) had 36+ MCAT.

For Cornell and Vanderbilt I believe also over 60% of people with those stats were accepted. And Cornell excludes URMs in their stats. Hell, the national average by AAMC shows a ton of 3.4/34's non URMs accepted each year. All of this though is besides the point.
 
Would it though? A B.S. in Biology from MIT is still a B.S. in Biology. Even if the student is going for engineering, he/she wouldn't really need to go MIT to land a good engineering job. I mean you can't just go to any school, but it doesn't have to be MIT caliber to have plenty of engineering job opps.



lol well to be fair, it's always the pre-health kids that ask in the middle of lecture, "So I understand how important ____ is, but how would this concept show up on the exam? What kind of question would you ask us?"
I care about grades, too, but some pre-health people have no shame at all.


You have to understand why though. You cant really blame them. Pre-Meds often have way more on their plates than most other undergraduate students. Other undergraduate students have to get B's and C's so they can get their degrees and graduate from college. They also dont have a ton of extracurriculars to do either. Plus they usually dont have classes nearly as hard as pre-meds.

Before someone comes in here and bashes me for saying that other undergrads dont have it hard.... I"m talking about most other undergrad disciplines. There are some really tough ones like any of the pure science majors (Physics, etc) and then any engineering major.
 
Isn't Cornell considered at least somewhat deflationary though?

I mean you know better the difference in deflation between your school and Cornell. I'd be rather skeptical that ADCOMs look at a transcript from your school and Cornell much differently at all though. I remember Cornell used to publish the median grade for their pre-req courses and all courses. They were all in the B range with the occasional B-.

Remember there's a big difference between sneaking into a lower tier and getting into Top 20's.
 
I mean you know better the difference in deflation between your school and Cornell. I'd be rather skeptical that ADCOMs look at a transcript from your school and Cornell much differently at all though. I remember Cornell used to publish the median grade for their pre-req courses. They were all in the B range with the occasional B-.

Okay, sure then perhaps. At the same time, I could see an argument that these 3.42/34 students may have gotten higher GPAs at their respective state schools, but that's just speculation. Without a spread, it's hard to tell. We send 80-90% of our applicants to medical school successfully, so it's conceivable that these scores are competitive somewhere. I just don't have the data to tell you anything more.
 
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Would it though? A B.S. in Biology from MIT is still a B.S. in Biology. Even if the student is going for engineering, he/she wouldn't really need to go MIT to land a good engineering job. I mean you can't just go to any school, but it doesn't have to be MIT caliber to have plenty of engineering job opps.



lol well to be fair, it's always the pre-health kids that ask in the middle of lecture, "So I understand how important ____ is, but how would this concept show up on the exam? What kind of question would you ask us?"
I care about grades, too, but some pre-health people have no shame at all.

Totally valid. But that's because of the ridiculous weight of grades for med school admission. Too many premeds focus on the grades rather than the actual knowledge. It's memorize, regurgitate and make room for the next set of notes. Should be about understanding, applying and retaining the important stuff. Way better off if you understand a mechanism rather than just memorize the steps.
 
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Totally valid. But that's because of the ridiculous weight of grades for med school admission. Too many premeds focus on the grades rather than the actual knowledge. It's memorize, regurgitate and make room for the next set of notes. Should be about understanding, applying and retaining the important stuff. Way better off if you understand a mechanism rather than just memorize the steps.

Hate to break it to you, but a lot of medical school (at least in your first year) is memorization. Yeah, understanding and application are ultimately the most important things, but you can't apply something if you don't actually know it.
 
Any universities that have lots of premeds are hard due to competition.
 
Hate to break it to you, but a lot of medical school (at least in your first year) is memorization. Yeah, understanding and application are ultimately the most important things, but you can't apply something if you don't actually know it.

I'm aware. But the way undergrad at least is set up unfortunately emphasizes memorization over understanding. With multiple choice exams for 200+ person lectures, you get points by memorizing random facts rather than understanding the big picture. I had one genetics class (with exams given in smaller discussion sections) and an orgo lecture where the exams were actually open ended where understanding was emphasized over memorization since you had to actually apply the knowledge rather than regurgitate facts. I really enjoyed them because I learned and retained way more and feel like that's closest to being a physician. You take in the knowledge in the first year or two of med school but then you have to be even better at applying it to new, sometimes unusual situations.
 
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Summing up top state schools :
"man I was waitlisted at Cornell and Penn but I'll kill it at this school!"
4 months later
"yeah I'm pre law/engineering/PT now."
 
I'm aware. But the way undergrad at least is set up unfortunately emphasizes memorization over understanding. With multiple choice exams for 200+ person lectures, you get points by memorizing random facts rather than understanding the big picture. I had one genetics class (with exams given in smaller discussion sections) and an orgo lecture where the exams were actually open ended where understanding was emphasized over memorization since you had to actually apply the knowledge rather than regurgitate facts. I really enjoyed them because I learned and retained way more and feel like that's closest to being a physician. You take in the knowledge in the first year or two of med school but then you have to be even better at applying it to new, sometimes unusual situations.

All of my science classes had open ended exams except for one, but I see your point because I know people at other schools who had (shudder) multiple choice organic chemistry exams...
 
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Summing up top state schools :
"man I was waitlisted at Cornell and Penn but I'll kill it at this school!"
4 months later
"yeah I'm pre law/engineering/PT now."
I call it the Berkeley blues lol+pity+
 
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Totally valid. But that's because of the ridiculous weight of grades for med school admission. Too many premeds focus on the grades rather than the actual knowledge. It's memorize, regurgitate and make room for the next set of notes. Should be about understanding, applying and retaining the important stuff. Way better off if you understand a mechanism rather than just memorize the steps.

True, but when you have 20 hours of research to do a week, 5 different clubs to manage, volunteeer/shadow hours to meet, useless time consuming lab reports to do, and actually have a little fun as well....... you probably arent going to be too focused on how well you understand the Tyrosine RAS Map Kinase pathway.
 
I thought I might throw in a few thoughts here. They're going to be disjointed, so bear with me.

1. The difference between UVA and random state school is somewhat big. The difference between honors college UVA and regular UVA is enormous. UVA sent people to a lot of top schools this year (for instance: Cornell, Duke, Penn, WashU, and probably a few others). These kids all came from the honors college, where they turned down Ivies/equivalents to go to UVA. Their SAT scores were sky high, they graduated top of their class in high school, and they're doing really big things at really good schools. The "safety" med school for honors college kids is UVA (think about that for a second). There is no functional difference between the honors college UVA kids and your average Ivy Leaguer.

2. At my Ivy undergrad, our median MCAT score for applicants was between a 33 and 34 two years ago. This is based on data sent to the premed office by applicants, but nearly everyone sent your score (you had to say send your score before you either took the exam or got your scores back, I don't remember, so I think this may help account for any sort of self-selection skew). Even if you didn't choose to send your scores (they really emphasized everyone doing so), you had to present them to get a letter from the premed office (which accounts for nearly every applicant - we have it structured so these letters only help you and we don't screen, so you can't be denied, but they office needs the full story). Caveat is that these scores I'm quoting are from a couple years ago, so I'm not sure how that's changed. I don't know our average score for accepted applicants, only applicants in general. People here tend to score pretty well on standardized tests.

3. Nearly all of our intro and mid level science classes are B (sometimes B+, but that's for random stuff like some math courses, biochemistry 2, and some physics classes). Our upper level classes in chem and physics are usually B/B+ as well. In biology, our upper level classes have higher grades than our low/mid level ones (probably A-, sometimes B+). However, these are seminar classes that are all about writing grants, critiquing papers, or is the class where you write your thesis (which takes up nearly all of your senior year). They're not (for the most part, I can think of one class that was an exception, but the professor was retiring that year and just made it super easy) "easy As" for the first part. They consist of the top of the top of the people in the major who are going onto graduate school and want further background in being scientifically literate. Obviously the thesis is not an "easy A" so I'm not going to even go there. For these seminar classes, you can only take them if you have a certain number of lower/mid level biology classes (enough to ensure that you're at the very least getting a minor in biology - in my seminar, everyone was a bio major and I had probably taken the least number of biology classes of everyone in the class), so it's not going to have a huge impact on your GPA by that point in time (after you've survived the gauntlet of lower/mid level classes). People will generally only take one of these upper level courses, two if they're doing a thesis and are ambitious (I took one + thesis, so two total). But by that point, your GPA is pretty much set. I got a 4.0 my senior year in college and my GPA literally improved by 0.01 points. Not any sort of substantial difference.

4. Humanities classes tend to have A- medians on average. For AMCAS, that is a 3.7. I'm only speculating because I only know distributions for the classes I took myself, but in the ones I took (which were widely spread across the board because I was doing an interdisciplinary program that included classes from like 5 different humanities departments), 80ish percent of people got A-s, 10% got As and 10% got B+s. That means for most people, you're getting a nice 3.7 tacked onto your GPA, which, if this is your HIGH grade, not what you want. Remember that a 3.7 OVERALL is the national median GPA for accepted applicants.

FOR KICKS AND GIGGLES

I just went through my transcript and totaled up what an average student would have gotten taking my schedule from freshman to junior year (when I applied). By average student I mean one who got the median grade every time (I have access to these medians). Guess what they would have gotten? A 3.42. Does that sound like a competitive GPA for medical school? If you want to break it down further, the sGPA would have been a 3.29 (just below a B+ median). AO would have been 3.73 (just above an A- median). Around 2/3 of the credits were science and 1/3 of the credits were humanities. Now, let's be generous and give the applicant a 34 on their MCAT. Does a 3.42/34 sound competitive? This is statistically what the average applicant from my school would have. Our median accepted GPA (per the premed office) is a 3.55. I don't know what the median accepted MCAT is, but I would guess (pure speculation, no data to back it up) it's between 33 and 35, inclusive.

This is probably a pretty average distribution of classes for a traditional premed student from my school. Most of my friends from college are applying with a GPA between 3.4 and 3.7. The few that applied with above a 3.7 are all at top 20 schools.

tl;dr

Someone with my class schedule would have, if they were an average student at this Ivy League school, applied to medical school with a 3.42/3.29. Remember that they are competing against a cohort that ranks among the brightest and most motivated students in the world. Does this make it seem any easier?
Have you seen any studies showing the predictive powers of SAT scores for success in life, or median income? I would love to see that.
 
You have to understand why though. You cant really blame them. Pre-Meds often have way more on their plates than most other undergraduate students. Other undergraduate students have to get B's and C's so they can get their degrees and graduate from college. They also dont have a ton of extracurriculars to do either. Plus they usually dont have classes nearly as hard as pre-meds.

Before someone comes in here and bashes me for saying that other undergrads dont have it hard.... I"m talking about most other undergrad disciplines. There are some really tough ones like any of the pure science majors (Physics, etc) and then any engineering major.

Totally valid. But that's because of the ridiculous weight of grades for med school admission. Too many premeds focus on the grades rather than the actual knowledge. It's memorize, regurgitate and make room for the next set of notes. Should be about understanding, applying and retaining the important stuff. Way better off if you understand a mechanism rather than just memorize the steps.

Of course, I'm also premed, so it's not like that's not what I'm thinking in my head. It's not thinking about it that's the problem, but it's just saying it aloud to the professor. It just shows blatant disrespect to the professor and the subject matter of study.
I find the average pre-health student to show very little actual interest and respect in the material they memorize, just the ending grade for his/her transcript. I'm not above it either (I do try not to be like this ofc), but there's a way to at least not be rude about it to academics who spent their whole lives researching in these fields.
 
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Have you seen any studies showing the predictive powers of SAT scores for success in life, or median income? I would love to see that.
SAT scores are correlated to SES background.
SES background is correlated to future income and success.

Dunno if there's a study that links them, but you can pretty much assume.
 
Of course, I'm also premed, so it's not like that's not what I'm thinking in my head. It's not thinking about it that's the problem, but it's just saying it aloud to the professor. It just shows blatant disrespect to the professor and the subject matter of study.
I find the average pre-health student to show very little actual interest and respect in the material they memorize, just the ending grade for his/her transcript. I'm not above it either (I do try not to be like this ofc), but there's a way to at least not be rude about it to academics who spent their whole lives researching in these fields.

I actually do not find asking the teacher what concepts are important for the test to be rude behavior.
 
Any thread on anything remotely related to this topic is guaranteed to get at least 100 posts.
 
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Hell, the national average by AAMC shows a ton of 3.4/34's non URMs accepted each year.
Hell, my non-deflated school as ORMs (mah fellow Asians) getting in with 3.4/34. Quite often, ~70% I believe. Overall for whites+asians, acceptance chances were a tossup (50% success) at 3.2/31. On SDN these numbers would be not even DO worthy.
 
like University of Minnesota which is a very respected public state school.
Careful there. U of MN - Twin Cities is an internationally acclaimed research institution where the professors, if tenure track, are demanded to do research (in various areas including: mole bio, genetics, 3-D hearts). If you are not doing research and/or are not published, you get adjunct and contract.

U of MN - Duluth, Crookston = state schools in the traditional sense
Mankato, Moorhead, Bemidji, ... = state schools in the traditional sense

As to the other comment on a 3.8 at U of MN = 3.4 MIT, eh. No. I would take the Rhodes scholar in their physics department against most of the MIT people.
 
Careful there. U of MN - Twin Cities is an internationally acclaimed research institution where the professors, if tenure track, are demanded to do research (in various areas including: mole bio, genetics, 3-D hearts). If you are not doing research and/or are not published, you get adjunct and contract.

U of MN - Duluth, Crookston = state schools in the traditional sense
Mankato, Moorhead, Bemidji, ... = state schools in the traditional sense

As to the other comment on a 3.8 at U of MN = 3.4 MIT, eh. No. I would take the Rhodes scholar in their physics department against most of the MIT people.
No, I'd be willing to bet that this would in fact be the case. MIT is hypercompetitive, and genius level students are a dime a dozen. Possibly the most academic-rich school in the world.

Twin Cities is most certainly a "state school in the traditional sense." Let's not artificially elevate it.
 
I equate state school with no researching faculty and easy admission for freshman; U of MN Twin Cities is neither of those. The others mentioned are.
 
I equate state school with no researching faculty and easy admission for freshman; U of MN Twin Cities is neither of those. The others mentioned are.
Twin Cities accepted 45% of all applicants last year. That's pretty damn easy in today's competitive college landscape.

I have no idea why in the heavens you'd also equate "state school" with no research though....
 
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Hell, my non-deflated school as ORMs (mah fellow Asians) getting in with 3.4/34. Quite often, ~70% I believe. Overall for whites+asians, acceptance chances were a tossup (50% success) at 3.2/31. On SDN these numbers would be not even DO worthy.

I don't think I would even recommend applying to any MD schools other than state schools for a 3.2/31.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/factstable25-3.pdf
You're talking about around a 20% for Asians with a TON of those who do get in with those a) Did SMPs b) Are from very lucky states c) Have a very unique life story or other amazing accomplishments.

Your general point still stands though. A 3.4/34 can potentially be competitive, even from generic State U's. 3.5/31-32's even for Asians are the definition of 50-50 propositions; they can go either way and for half those applicants they do end up somewhere. It just surprised me a little when WedgeDawg seemed to suggest from his tone that a 3.4/34 wouldn't be too competitive from his school I guess is how this all started; it certainly could be. But maybe I just interpreted him wrong. SDN sometimes forgets there is a big difference between admission at top 20 schools and lower tiers.


As for the whole 3.8=3.4 other people have brought up, it's just a pointless discussion. There's just no black and white answer people want. What you'll always end up finding here is those from top schools being sensitive and wanting to say that going to that top school gives them a big advantage and those from the generic State U's arguing the opposite and often also being sensitive.

The truth as always, is somewhere in between that. When people bring this up and ask me about it here is what I tend to point them.
1) Gonnif has said many times he thinks the impact of prestige of undergrad institution is something that many pre-meds think matters a good bit more than ADCOMs do. Now, that in itself is a vague statement that has limits.
2) I've heard from others LizzyM being quoted as saying where you go is considered but the most her school(top 20) will ever "boost" for undergrad prestige is in the 0.2-0.3 range. And that is the absolute most; ie just going to a top 20 doesn't just mean add 0.3 There's a difference between chemical engineering at MIT and a generic major at Emory.
3) U of Miami in their powerpoint presentation they give show their point system they use to evaluate apps. I think its out of 300 or 400 points and 30 is given to level of undergrad institution. For reference, I believe things like rec letters, essays are given 45 and I believe the MCAT and GPA are given 60. Now we don't know what that means; does it mean maybe they give 10 for State U, 20 for top tier school and 30 for a top tier and top major? Is it 0 for generic school and 30 for top school? That's more unlikely but we just don't know.
4) Gyngyn has stated for his school where you go for undergrad has a marginal impact at best but he is also at a public CA school I believe so that shouldn't come as a huge shocker.
5) If you are going to make any generalizing trends it would probably be those from the top tiers are most likely to give weight to level of prestige of undergrad. But again these are all generalizations. I have a good family friend who has been an ADCOM at a top 20 school for years who's told me many times the level of prestige for undergrad has very little impact for admission in their school.
 
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I don't see as many MIT transcripts as I used to but I seem to recall that freshman year is entirely pass fail meaning that freshman grades don't factor into one's GPA. Does that make it easier or harder as a pre-med? Discuss.
 
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I don't see as many MIT transcripts as I used to but I seem to recall that freshman year is entirely pass fail meaning that freshman grades don't factor into one's GPA. Does that make it easier or harder as a pre-med? Discuss.
Gladly


Easier. Freshman year is about so many different new things... adjusting to college life, finding social niches, joining ECs, etc etc. It's hard to crush academics and do everything else as well. But it's still MIT....which makes the overall experience hard af. Would not like my chances there.


If you cut my freshman year out I go from 3.7/3.5 to 3.8/3.65. I know many others are probably similar in this regard.
 
I've heard JHU does the same thing as MIT first semester; any truth to this?
 
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