Rank the Dental Schools

[bspeedy00]

A degree from wharton does not gaurantee that you will be an asset to a particular company, but it sure will give you the upper hand in getting a job over someone else. It creates opportunities to prove oneself. Like wharton, it is hard to get into harvard dental, and like a wharton degree, a harvard degree may create opportunity as well.

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[bspeedy00]

My point exactly... and my point is that maybe THE brightest student chose not to attend there

So what? What if 2-36 did choose to go there? How is the quality of the harvard program diminished if this hypothetical #1 student didnt go there? My money is that they matriculate more students out of the top 50 applicants in the nation than most schools (yes there may be several other school that acquire more), but my contention is that harvard is a top TIER school, not THE TOP school.

 

[goldstar]

First of all, let me point out that it is not true that Harvard dental students do not see patients until their 3rd year. Harvard dental students begin a course called Patient/Doctor in the first year. Yes, they do not do any dental work on those patients, but they begin to learn how to interact with patients and how to make them feel at ease in what might be a scary or uncomfortable situation. Instead, Harvard strives to ensure that their students are completely prepared to see patients in a dental setting by making sure that they are incredibly knowledgeable about the human body as a whole before even beginning to perform dental procedures. As a dentist you treat a patient, a human being, not simply their oral cavity. That patient might have other complicating illnesses, diseases, etc. that you need to know how to handle well. Personally, I would not want a 2nd year dental student anywhere near my mouth.
On the other hand, I do agree that Harvard is a school for general dentists. I do want to specialize, and I know that by going there (if accepted) I would basically be assured of getting into some specialty program. Furthermore, since the program is pass/fail, I will not have to worry about "gunners" and will benefit from the team-like atmosphere. I do not bash anyone else's decision to attend their state school. I would in fact be happy attending my state school. However, I would be happier at Harvard. So what if I am willing to spend so much more money than you are? It's my money, and I think a Harvard education is valuable enough. With 35 of the brightest students across the nation and top-notch faculty, I think it's hard to disagree that the school is not indeed a good dental school. You can try to downplay the importance of DAT scores and GPA's, but these numbers definitely do tell to some degree about a person's level of intelligence. Therefore, with an average DAT score of 22 and average GPA above 3.5, you cannot say that Harvard dental students are not among some of the best applicants.
Lastly, do not say that the Harvard name means nothing. Why if the Harvard name means nothing, am I constantly asked by people I hardly speak to at my undergrad campus if I've heard back from Harvard? Why is word spreading like wildfire around the small town that I'm from that I interviewed at Harvard? People are impressed by the name. It can help you get your foot in the door. I do understand that I will need to be able to back up the Harvard reputation with actual dental and people skills, but I don't doubt that I would graduate from Harvard with the skills necessary to make patients value my services and continue to visit my practice for many years.
I am sick and tired of people trying to belittle my choice to attend Harvard if given the opportunity. I do not see Harvard students trying to make you think less of your state school. It's simply insulting. If as many of you say the best dental school is the one you get into it, why this continual Harvard bashing? About 45 people a year get into Harvard, so that makes it the best school for those 45 people. Stop being insulting!

 

[crazy_sherm]

DAT 22+/20+/22+ with GPA 3.6+, that's exactly where I am, and I do care where I go, a lot, cuz that's 4 years... once in a life time, also affecting my relationship with gf.
UOP sounds like a great school, think I have any chance at this late. My application sent out Oct23rd. Haven't heard a thing from them, no secondary, no interview... Fustrated

There is no secondary at UOP. Did you send in your extra $75?

 

[captaintripps]

What do you rank the dental schools in terms of your experience with research, interviews and SDN?
These are mine:

1. Harvard
2. UCONN
3. Columbia
4. UCLA
5. UOP

#1 = UCONN

 

[bspeedy00]

Granted there is no formal ranking for dental schools, but is it not reasonable to compare certain factors (that all applicants might seek in a school) on an individual level? I just dont believe that ALL SCHOOLS are the same. Some schools have more resources, better faculty, better facilities, better average board scores, etc (all of which can be used to compare the strength of a program). It would be difficult to rank each school, but some are better than others (ie tiers). Obviously, individuals have particular desires to live by family or in a warm climate, but it is still possible to compare schools on more universal standards.

Next, you seem to think harvard is the most expensive school out there, but it isnt, especially if you plan to go to school out of state (not all of us live in california, with numerous dental programs). Oh and by the way, boston is not the coldest place to live, try minnesota if you disagree. (and not all of us mind the cold).

Now, I am curious, when did I ever imply that going to harvard will make you a better/good person? What I stated was that the harvard program is composed of a number of highly accomplished students, as shown by nationally accepted methods of comparison (DAT and GPA). I would hope all dental students strive to be ethical.

Specialization. Do you ever wonder why so many harvard students specialize? Well one part of that answer is because so many are accepted to specialty programs (which are open to students from across the nation). This is not some conspiracy. The harvard grads did well in dental school and the specialty programs pick them.

Precarious yups: Absolutely, there are good students at other schools, but dont rag on harvard just because you are insecure. The students at harvard worked their butts off to go there, and dont try to belittle their effort or natural intelligence.

Goldstar: I couldnt agree with you more and good luck with your application.

 

[MEM3]

#1 = UCONN

Captaintripps, how do you like the curriculum and the school overall?

I know its a very challenging school, and if accepted, i'm up for the challenge.

 

[bspeedy00]

To address this matter:
I'm sorry to see if you think life is as linear as any "measurements" that institutions might take from you. Furthermore, your argument is laid out very indefinitely; you switch from one thing to another then make a flamboyant conclusion. Anyways, from my side of it, I feel like you're putting words into my mouth, but that's my point of view so deal with it. I'm glad that you don't intent to be rude but are and that you're "scared" to see that I know so many people who can't handle a test tube. That was a metaphor for you-- where do you think people use a test tube? In a lab, for our purposes as future dental scientists, and yes, I know 4.0 GPA students... not from Littletown Duluth University of Nicaragua, rather from UCLA, a world class elite institution of higher learning, that cannot deal with anything requiring performance. Simultaneously, I know collegiate athletes with a little less GPA and a little less DAT than my 4.0 acquaintance that I put more faith in... simply because they have other things going for them. I'm not a hater and I definitely don't hate on Harvard (unless it rumbles with UCLA, j/k), I simply don't like fascists/racists, chauvinists, or elitists. Don't get me wrong; if I got accepted to Harvard I would go.
The reality is that there are many other students that have worked their tails off and deserve the seat more than me and I am in no way better than any of them. Good luck to you.

Linear measurements? Make sure you write a letter to those administering the NDBE that you dont think much of their measurements. While we are at it, why have grades, or the DAT? We can just assume that everyone knows everything. We have these scales for a reason. I hate to break it to you but not everyone is as knowledgable as they think, and some are more than others. So we have tests (albeit not perfect, but a pretty good gauge).

As far as well laid out arguments go, try reading one of your posts. Most of my responses correlate directly (and in order) to statements made in previous posts of YOURS! It is difficult to respond to all of the random claims you make, so dont say I am putting words in your mouth, since I get them directly from your posts.

As for your ego, you have made a couple of claims that you are more confident in your ability than 90% of applicants, that you are one of the nations brightest, or that you attend the world class elite institution of UCLA, and so on. Are admissions boards supposed to just take your word for it? (OR, what they could do is look at a GPA or DAT score).

Next, I am glad to see that you missed my point regarding the test tube thing. First, there shouldnt be tons of 4.0 students even at UCLA (unless schools give out A's like toilet paper), and second, I bet most of them are fairly confident in the lab (because pratice makes perfect). In your last post, you also implied that size of school makes getting a 4.0 harder. World class elite UCLA vs. po-dunk U. Well I would disagree here too, if po-dunk has harder classes. One other point you made is that you have some athlete friend that is qualified too. Well I dont doubt it, but harvard (and pretty much every school) looks at extra-cirriculars too when selecting matriculants.

The ironic thing is that given your harvard bashing, you would go to havard if they let you in. You conceed that there are others more qualified to get in as well. This contradicts implications made previously by you, and also gets back to an earlier question, how are adcom's supposed to tell you apart from the people you feel are more qualified (since you dont seem to put much faith in GPA or DAT)?

Precarious yups, you have not shown that my argument is invalid or unsound, but have sure made plenty of generalizations and assumptions in your attempt.

P.S. I would defend any of the schools (and there are several) that I consider above average in the same way.

 

[captaintripps]

Captaintripps, how do you like the curriculum and the school overall?

I know its a very challenging school, and if accepted, i'm up for the challenge.

The BMS curriculum is rough, but they put alot of effort into organizing and integrating it. I like the school overall - if you're up for the challenge then you should get along fine.

 

[DREDAY]

Personally I think the people who would rather not have dental schools ranked are those who did not get into or will not get into the "top" programs in the first place (i.e. UCLA, UOP, UCSF, UPENN, Harvard). To those people it is much more beneficial that a "top" dental school not be named because it will de value the institution they will be attending or institution they attend.

 

[bspeedy00]

Dreday: completely agree, I think you have pin pointed a major issue.

 

[dane4695]

I dunno. I think all this chat is a lil silly. Yah rah rah. We won't know which school is best which won't know which is le suck. Oh well.

I know there are quite a few people on this forum, including myself, that probably could have at least gotten interviews from harvard, but decided not to apply there. For me, Harvard is on the east coast in boston, the expense, the almost med school atmosphere... not appealing. I'd rather go to UCLA or UW. Heck, OHSU is pretty cool too -- you get to be on the ground floor @ year 2.

However, I'd be lying to you if I didn't think having a degree from Harvard ment anything... it does, at least to a dumb kid like me Though comming from Alaska, i've never met a grad from H dental ... so who knows.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Personally I think the people who would rather not have dental schools ranked are those who did not get into or will not get into the "top" programs in the first place (i.e. UCLA, UOP, UCSF, UPENN, Harvard). To those people it is much more beneficial that a "top" dental school not be named because it will de value the institution they will be attending or institution they attend.

Funny stuff.

Once again, I'm wondering why you've arbitrarily named a handful of schools as "top" programs.

I'll remind you, they aren't tops in dentistry because they have a rockin' med school or a great MBA program.

And, ranking programs doesn't de value anything--patients don't care where you graduated from. The only value placed on schools is by pre-dental students. Seasoned dental students don't even venture into the ridiculous land of "rate the schools"...that's because we've learned first-hand that school name doesn't matter. Patients just want their work done comfortably, quickly, and well. There isn't anything else to it other than that.

 

[DREDAY]

Funny stuff.

Once again, I'm wondering why you've arbitrarily named a handful of schools as "top" programs.

I'll remind you, they aren't tops in dentistry because they have a rockin' med school or a great MBA program.

Well, from most dentists, dental students, dental proffessors, and people I have spoken too from various schools, including schools not on that list, it has been a general consensus that those are the top notch programs in the country. Now I know that dental school rankings are all relative, just like rankings for med school and law programs. But the rankings for law programs and medschool programs have been effective in giving people an obejective and effective representation of each school and rank them based on a universal criteria. JUST LIKE dental schools have the RIGHT to rank us students when deciding which ones to accept we should be able to do the same.

 

[quakinator]

Though comming from Alaska, i've never met a grad from H dental ... so who knows.

BTW, I love Alaska! What part are you from? I think I want to live there.

 

[Tzips]

I dunno. I think all this chat is a lil silly. Yah rah rah. We won't know which school is best which won't know which is le suck. Oh well.

I know there are quite a few people on this forum, including myself, that probably could have at least gotten interviews from harvard, but decided not to apply there. For me, Harvard is on the east coast in boston, the expense, the almost med school atmosphere... not appealing. I'd rather go to UCLA or UW.

Second the motion. Speaking as a spectator of this rather diverting debate - and thank you for keeping me distracted from my application worries, it was much appreciated - I find myself laughing about the whole thing because I was debating for a while whether or not to apply to Harvard, and finally decided against it because I realized I'd only go there if I got in nowhere else, and using Harvard as a backup, even in light of this debate, is a little ridiculous . My criteria are evidently different from that of most other people in the country, but that's ok - more room for me at my top choices . I've decided that while saying you go to Harvard is indubitably cool, most patients simply don't care - so, i'm free to make my own choice, independant of outside pressures. yay!

May we all get into our top choices, whatever they may be

 

[J2AZ]

I hate this thread! As many have pointed out a "name" school is not important in dentistry. You can do anything with a degree from anywhere. However, certain schools are geared towards certain students and their differing career aspirations. So, your number one school should be the one that will provide you with the most opportunity to do what you wish to do after graduation. Harvard produces dentists with horrible clinical skills. There is no way to argue against this. However, this says nothing about the quality of the dental school nor the students. What it should tell you is that its not the place to go if you want to be a GP. If you want that go to Temple, AZ, UoP, Creighton, Marquette etc. However, if you want to specialize there is no better place to go than Harvard. Any clinical skills you pick up at Harvard will be a plus but not really needed during your residency. So in evaluating which school is the best you need to look at yourself first and the school second. If you want to specialize go to Harvard, UCONN, UCSF, UCLA or any school that has a didactic focus. If you want to be a great GP go to a school that has a clinical focus like AZ, UoP, Temple...etc. Also, b/c deciding where to go is so personal, don't forget the most important factor in deciding what school is best for you...location. Remember this is 4 years of your life.
If you want the latest rankings cerca 1992 check out this website.

http://members.tripod.com/~softballteam/best.html

 

[DREDAY]

I hate this thread! As many have pointed out a "name" school is not important in dentistry. You can do anything with a degree from anywhere. However, certain schools are geared towards certain students and their differing career aspirations. So, your number one school should be the one that will provide you with the most opportunity to do what you wish to do after graduation. Harvard produces dentists with horrible clinical skills. There is no way to argue against this. However, this says nothing about the quality of the dental school nor the students. What it should tell you is that its not the place to go if you want to be a GP. If you want that go to Temple, AZ, UoP, Creighton, Marquette etc. However, if you want to specialize there is no better place to go than Harvard. Any clinical skills you pick up at Harvard will be a plus but not really needed during your residency. So in evaluating which school is the best you need to look at yourself first and the school second. If you want to specialize go to Harvard, UCONN, UCSF, UCLA or any school that has a didactic focus. If you want to be a great GP go to a school that has a clinical focus like AZ, UoP, Temple...etc. Also, b/c deciding where to go is so personal, don't forget the most important factor in deciding what school is best for you...location. Remember this is 4 years of your life.
If you want the latest rankings cerca 1992 check out this website.

http://members.tripod.com/~softballteam/best.html

hahah are you kidding me? i think you misunderstand the rankings. Are you saying there should be no rankings for med schools or law schools? if so how does ranking law school or med school differ from ranking dental. I think rankings would provide the students with an objective way of evaluating the school much the same way many pre-med and pre-law students do when evaluating which school they will want to go to. THERE SHOULD BE RANKINGS, it provides for us to better know our dental schools. Everyone knows about the law schools and the med schools.... there needs to be more exposure for dental schools.

 

[uclaguy]

What do you rank the dental schools in terms of your experience with research, interviews and SDN?
These are mine:

1. Harvard
2. UCONN
3. Columbia
4. UCLA
5. UOP

''As I asked what do you guys personally rank the schools. My opinion as you can tell is more heavily towards research and ability to specialize. I just wanted to know you comparisons of different schools in the US from your experiences.
Please do not respond with the usual answer that dental schools are not meant to be ranked!!! Hypothetically lets just say you were given automatic acceptance to the school of your choice, which one would you select?

 

[bspeedy00]

Good job on your last 2 posts aimed at me, they're much improved from the first one. Just wanted to tell you that many students have had difficulty from this fallible (i.e. linear) system, yet overcame diversity to establish leadership (e.g. Einstein). Good luck!

Absolutely my posts have been aimed at you. The reason is you make some outlandish statements that are simply assumptions or generalizations (oh and false ones at that). You seem desperate to justify the claim that one can have a low GPA and still be a genius (I think this is your opinion of yourself frankly), and clinging to the invalidity of GPA is your method of defense. Please dont put yourself in the same group as einstein though. Hey, but guess what, I would bet that Adcoms agree with me that GPA and DAT are good measures of academic ability, and what do you know, they still use them!

 

[aphistis]

hahah are you kidding me? i think you misunderstand the rankings. Are you saying there should be no rankings for med schools or law schools? if so how does ranking law school or med school differ from ranking dental. I think rankings would provide the students with an objective way of evaluating the school much the same way many pre-med and pre-law students do when evaluating which school they will want to go to. THERE SHOULD BE RANKINGS, it provides for us to better know our dental schools. Everyone knows about the law schools and the med schools.... there needs to be more exposure for dental schools.

You're seriously, seriously out of touch with the process if you think US News rankings are anything even remotely approximating objective.

 

[bspeedy00]

You're seriously, seriously out of touch with the process if you think US News rankings are anything even remotely approximating objective.

I dont understand why people seem to think that it so impossible to rank dental schools, or at least group them? If other programs can be ranked, so can dental schools.

Some students are better than others (sorry, but it is true), and I am certain that some programs prepare dentists for their future better than others (on average). There are objective criteria to rank dental schools as well. Here are some examples: quality of facility, of faculty (yup, some profs teach better than others), research opportunities, international opportunities, practice management preparation, NDBE scores, the percentage of students accepted into specialty programs (of those that apply per school), amount of money spent per student, school resources, etc. So stop pretending that it is impossible. Personal criteria, such as location, cost, comfort level, are aside from these criteria.

I will say that I dont think it possible to rank 1,2,3,4,5,6.... for all schools, but I think that there can be a group of 10 that standout.

 

[Sprgrover]

Funny stuff.

Once again, I'm wondering why you've arbitrarily named a handful of schools as "top" programs.

I'll remind you, they aren't tops in dentistry because they have a rockin' med school or a great MBA program.

And, ranking programs doesn't de value anything--patients don't care where you graduated from. The only value placed on schools is by pre-dental students. Seasoned dental students don't even venture into the ridiculous land of "rate the schools"...that's because we've learned first-hand that school name doesn't matter. Patients just want their work done comfortably, quickly, and well. There isn't anything else to it other than that.

Amen!

 

[luder98]

I can use this thread to practice my RC

 

[Dr.Smiley-OR]

I think this thread has became a debate between many people vs. bspeedy00.
Bspeedy00, I think we understand your points and recognize that you LOVE to have dental schools ranking. But you also have to understand and recognize that many of us do not care, so don't just reply to every single things that people post up here, and don't take it so personal. You have voiced your opinion more than enough. And if you believe in democracy, and if we have to vote right now, i think most people up here will vote NO on this issue.
For some, and especially bspeedy00, ranking dental schools is important because they like to graduate from a big name school. For others, like me, I only care about schools that give me a great clinical training to become a GP, and also have a great time for the next 4 years of my life. Even if the U.S News has a ranking for dental school, I would look at it as a reference but afterall, it will be my ultimate decision to decide what is the TOP school for me. So, bspeedy00, don't disclaim other people's opinion and being ridiculously stubborn.
Let just agree on the fact that YOU care about the ranking and WE don't, alright? Don't take over the whole message board!

 

[bspeedy00]

I think this thread has became a debate between many people vs. bspeedy00.
Bspeedy00, I think we understand your points and recognize that you LOVE to have dental schools ranking. But you also have to understand and recognize that many of us do not care, so don't just reply to every single things that people post up here, and don't take it so personal. You have voiced your opinion more than enough. And if you believe in democracy, and if we have to vote right now, i think most people up here will vote NO on this issue.
For some, and especially bspeedy00, ranking dental schools is important because they like to graduate from a big name school. For others, like me, I only care about schools that give me a great clinical training to become a GP, and also have a great time for the next 4 years of my life. Even if the U.S News has a ranking for dental school, I would look at it as a reference but afterall, it will be my ultimate decision to decide what is the TOP school for me. So, bspeedy00, don't disclaim other people's opinion and being ridiculously stubborn.
Let just agree on the fact that YOU care about the ranking and WE don't, alright? Don't take over the whole message board!

I almost find this comical because there have been several others on this thread agreeing with me. You obviously dont understand my points because then you would have answered anyone of the eight million questions I have asked of those arguing against me. Yet, the only reply I get is "we dont care", great attitude.

In an attempt to determine where I will get the best education, it sure would be helpful to have a standardized comparison of certain criteria. So how do you determine if you will be trained well by school x (like you say you want to know)? Probably, by looking at many of the same criteria used in a ranking system. Rankings offer standardized information that would be helpful for applicants in the decision process. You admit that you would use rankings for a reference, so they are not useless. And, it should be obvious that the ultimate decision is up to the individual. What I have claimed all along is that all schools are not equal, rankings may have value, and that they are certainly not absurd.

Now, I thought a message board was meant for some sort of discussion on various topics. So dont moan about someone taking over the message board. People have presented weak argumentation for claims they make, so I respond. The fact is, I have brought up valid points/questions, which no one has refuted/answered. I am going to be stubborn as long as people refuse to show any sort of reason behind their claims. For example, saying that you care about going to the school that will best train you, but that you dont care how to determine where that school is, is contradictory.

 

[aphistis]

I dont understand why people seem to think that it so impossible to rank dental schools, or at least group them? If other programs can be ranked, so can dental schools.

Some students are better than others (sorry, but it is true), and I am certain that some programs prepare dentists for their future better than others (on average). There are objective criteria to rank dental schools as well. Here are some examples: quality of facility, of faculty (yup, some profs teach better than others), research opportunities, international opportunities, practice management preparation, NDBE scores, the percentage of students accepted into specialty programs (of those that apply per school), amount of money spent per student, school resources, etc. So stop pretending that it is impossible. Personal criteria, such as location, cost, comfort level, are aside from these criteria.

I will say that I dont think it possible to rank 1,2,3,4,5,6.... for all schools, but I think that there can be a group of 10 that standout.

10 schools that stand out based on what? Oops, you have to decide on criteria & prioritize them. Guess what; at that point, the ranking process has ipso facto lost its objectivity. I don't think you're realizing the fundamental problem that a question as multifactorial as "what makes a dental school good" can't possibly be answered objectively, and without that prerequisite answer, any attempt at objective evaluation is predestined to fail.

 

[Bullfan16]

I almost find this comical because there have been several others on this thread agreeing with me.

You call two people agreeing with you, "several people"????

I dont know where this guy is coming from at all. Apparently he doesnt have much exposure to dentistry. There are a lot of bright people out there with very little social skills...so I want you to ponder this question, who would you rather have work on you:

A dentist who had average grades, average DAT, average NBDE but great ability to put a patient at ease AND communicate effectively (not to mention great clinical skills)

or

Some genious who has a 4.0 gpa, high DATs, and high NBDE scores but cant communicate effectively and is out of touch with reality (oh yeah and he/she is still stuck on where they went to undergrad and dental school...ie "obviously I am good, I went to Harvard")??

I am not saying every person who is categorized into the latter is going to have no social skills, but I have seen it (and it tends to occur pretty often)....I know I am generalizing...but you get the point.

The only point that I saw as a good one was upon being admitted to the school you work on a pass/fail scale rather than a typical grading scale...this tends to eliminate some competition (and "gunner activity").

Precarious Yups mentioned people who are extremely smart but arent very good in the lab. Before this semester, I wouldnt have understood this notion. As we speak, I am in Histology with a smart girl who cant use a microscope and is extremely immature (ie "I dont want to go to dental school at school "X" because its in the ghetto"). Can somebody please explain why there isn't more screening in the admissions process? Her DAT and GPA dont tell the whole story. I pity her patients.

Going back to ranking schools...do you need this to justify yourself to your town? I mean really whats the point? Clearly you are someone who doesn't get the big picture, that once we all get out and are practicing dentists, no one school educated an individual better than another individual. Its just that simple. They all prepare you to take boards, learn clinical technique and diagnose problems (there's more to it than that, but I am simplifying here). I really dont think there is that much disparity b/w faculty among all of the 54 schools across the nation. I am sure there are plenty of good, bad, and mediocre professors at each school, with no one school having a better faculty than another school. There is a lot more I want to say, but I dont want to waste my time. You have a lot to learn. There's more to life than prestige.

 

[Dr.Smiley-OR]

The fact is, I have brought up valid points/questions, which no one has refuted/answered. I am going to be stubborn as long as people refuse to show any sort of reason behind their claims. For example, saying that you care about going to the school that will best train you, but that you dont care how to determine where that school is, is contradictory.

I think there are plenty of people up here already have refuted or answered your questions, just that you do not accept them as valid (mainly because you being stubborn and believe that you are correct in your perspective).

Secondly, how do I know which school is best suited for me? Well, that is what interview day for. I visited the schools, talked to the falcuty and students at the schools, observed what was going on, talked to different dentists that i know and people who are currently in dental school. No standard ranking can tell what it is like to be in a dental school like people who are experiencing and living in that school themselves. I visited the cities, the location where each school located, I stayed there for at least 5 days to see what the environmnent is like.....There are plenty of ways to determine what school is best for me......
I think you are being way stubborn. Maybe you are academically intelligent but obviously socially-challenged. I don't understand how you sit there and say that most people up here do not have valid argument. I think they have plenty, it is just that you are so narrow-minded and cannot see what other people are saying.
Maybe I have the attitude that " I do not care" but this attitude comes from the fact that it does not matter to me to have the school ranking by some magazines or studies. I rank my own schools and decide where is my top choice.
Harward maybe the TOP choice for people who like to specialize, but is not the TOP choice for people who like to be GP. So, who can say Harward is the TOP dental school overall? By saying so will make no sense and mislead people.
Anyway, I think I have said enough because I am sure you will write something back and say that my points are not valid (like you have done so to so many people who also do have valid points). Good luck to you and hope you will learn more from the reality. And also hope not to have you as my future classmate.

 

[luder98]

i dont understand, why do some arguments end with ppl wishing the other "good luck"?

this is a pure observation

Bc their username is not dyarhea J/K

 

[dyarhea]

Bc their username is not dyarhea J/K

o haha
this thread is too serious fo my little observation

 

[bspeedy00]

First off...

...fundamental problem that a question as multifactorial as "what makes a dental school good" can't possibly be answered objectively, and without that prerequisite answer, any attempt at objective evaluation is predestined to fail.

You give this response every time, but how has it lost objectivity. I am not going to re-list all the possibly ways to measure a school, but why does it not work?

 

[futureDr_Jon]

In my opinion the reason the ADEA doesn't like rankings has little to do with who the top 15 or so schools are. I think there are schools that are great at research and sending their students to specialties and there are schools that are excellent clinical schools who pump out well prepared GPs.

I think the ADEA wants to protect the schools who are not doing so well. So I was wondering (and I am not trying to be a jerk or anything like that) which schools are the poorest. Are there any schools that stand out because of poor pass rates on the boards, or a low percentage of students who succesfully apply to a specialty program, or likelihood of being shot on the way to class.

I know the school that doesn't accept you is the "worst", but are there schools that are not very good.

 

[bspeedy00]

You call two people agreeing with you, "several people"????

I dont know where this guy is coming from at all. Apparently he doesnt have much exposure to dentistry. There are a lot of bright people out there with very little social skills...so I want you to ponder this question, who would you rather have work on you:

A dentist who had average grades, average DAT, average NBDE but great ability to put a patient at ease AND communicate effectively (not to mention great clinical skills)

or

Some genious who has a 4.0 gpa, high DATs, and high NBDE scores but cant communicate effectively and is out of touch with reality (oh yeah and he/she is still stuck on where they went to undergrad and dental school...ie "obviously I am good, I went to Harvard")??

I am not saying every person who is categorized into the latter is going to have no social skills, but I have seen it (and it tends to occur pretty often)....I know I am generalizing...but you get the point.

The only point that I saw as a good one was upon being admitted to the school you work on a pass/fail scale rather than a typical grading scale...this tends to eliminate some competition (and "gunner activity").

Precarious Yups mentioned people who are extremely smart but arent very good in the lab. Before this semester, I wouldnt have understood this notion. As we speak, I am in Histology with a smart girl who cant use a microscope and is extremely immature (ie "I dont want to go to dental school at school "X" because its in the ghetto"). Can somebody please explain why there isn't more screening in the admissions process? Her DAT and GPA dont tell the whole story. I pity her patients.

Going back to ranking schools...do you need this to justify yourself to your town? I mean really whats the point? Clearly you are someone who doesn't get the big picture, that once we all get out and are practicing dentists, no one school educated an individual better than another individual. Its just that simple. They all prepare you to take boards, learn clinical technique and diagnose problems (there's more to it than that, but I am simplifying here). I really dont think there is that much disparity b/w faculty among all of the 54 schools across the nation. I am sure there are plenty of good, bad, and mediocre professors at each school, with no one school having a better faculty than another school. There is a lot more I want to say, but I dont want to waste my time. You have a lot to learn. There's more to life than prestige.

First, yes, I call 2 other people "several", as in a "couple" others. Which out of the 8-10 people that post on here is several.

Second. Imagine a world where people are smart AND can use their hands AND have social skills! These are not mutually exclusive. Oh, and just because you can think of someone that is only one of those trait, does not make it true other cases. I know plenty of smart people that are also socially capable, so I dont agree that is the trend, and yes you are generalizing. The point I get from this comment is that you love generalizing.

Third, admission boards do screen for maturity in the interview, essays, extra-curricular involvement, etc. One must put faith in the adcoms to see through girl x in your class.

Fourth. I am not justifying anything for myself. Stop assuming that I defend rankings, harvard, etc. for personal reasons. It is a big assumption, and a wrong assumption.

Fifth. Are you kidding me that every school offers the same education? Well you can go on thinking that I guess, but let me clarify something else. Stop pretending that you have life all figured out and that those that disagree with you are just in need of some education.

 

[bspeedy00]

I think there are plenty of people up here already have refuted or answered your questions, just that you do not accept them as valid (mainly because you being stubborn and believe that you are correct in your perspective).

Secondly, how do I know which school is best suited for me? Well, that is what interview day for. I visited the schools, talked to the falcuty and students at the schools, observed what was going on, talked to different dentists that i know and people who are currently in dental school. No standard ranking can tell what it is like to be in a dental school like people who are experiencing and living in that school themselves. I visited the cities, the location where each school located, I stayed there for at least 5 days to see what the environmnent is like.....There are plenty of ways to determine what school is best for me......
I think you are being way stubborn. Maybe you are academically intelligent but obviously socially-challenged. I don't understand how you sit there and say that most people up here do not have valid argument. I think they have plenty, it is just that you are so narrow-minded and cannot see what other people are saying.
Maybe I have the attitude that " I do not care" but this attitude comes from the fact that it does not matter to me to have the school ranking by some magazines or studies. I rank my own schools and decide where is my top choice.
Harward maybe the TOP choice for people who like to specialize, but is not the TOP choice for people who like to be GP. So, who can say Harward is the TOP dental school overall? By saying so will make no sense and mislead people.
Anyway, I think I have said enough because I am sure you will write something back and say that my points are not valid (like you have done so to so many people who also do have valid points). Good luck to you and hope you will learn more from the reality. And also hope not to have you as my future classmate.

How has anyone refuted anything? The only responses I see are "we dont care", "rankings arent objective" (just because they are), and "you are just trying to justify yourself to your town". Those are not refutations, just pointless propositions.

Next, so you are saying that your general feeling of a school will tell you if it will best prepare you? That is objective. Oh, and thanks for calling me socially challenged, I suppose you are going to back that up with some proof?

Speaking of validity. Have you ever taken a logic class? Do you know how propositional logic works? The reason I can denied the conclusions you make is that I deny your premises, and have given reasons why. You deny my conclusions but dont even address my premises. Hence, I can claim your argument invalid but you can not do the same.

Ok, enough of this. I give up. Go on thinking what you want. I feel like I am agruing with little cousins. I suppose your next response is going to be "Na-uhh"

 

[Gutta Percha]

If you want to know where dental schools rank, don't ask pre-dents or even dental students or even most dentists. Ask the guru's--the buchannan's, christensen's, dickerson's, dawson's, etc. They have seen most of the schools, and know what they teach. (BTW, for the person who said Upenn better than UOP--please don't disparage the good name of UOP b/c all the guru's know it is one of the top d. schools since most of them attended it---this is not my opinion it is just a fact)

 

[ItsGavinC]

First off...



You give this response every time, but how has it lost objectivity. I am not going to re-list all the possibly ways to measure a school, but why does it not work?

Look at the US News rankings for medical schools. Those that top the list, by the admission of US News, are those that bring in the most research $. The irony is that to bring in research monies, the university has to make a major contribution to research. Hence the vicious cycle.

US News rankings say nothing about quality of student life, quality of professors, quality of curriculum, average board scores, or any of the other items you mentioned.

 

[ItsGavinC]

[And everybody please remember to NOT resort to personal insults against other guests]

 

[ItsGavinC]

Fifth. Are you kidding me that every school offers the same education? Well you can go on thinking that I guess...

They don't all offer the exact same education, but they all meet certain educational requirements.

Are you currently in dental school? A seasoned student typically recognizes that a good program can still turn out a very poor dentist and a normal/mediocre program can turn out a superior dentist. How is this possible? It's because the burden of work lies on the student, NOT on the school.

 

[edkNARF]

10 schools that stand out based on what? Oops, you have to decide on criteria & prioritize them. Guess what; at that point, the ranking process has ipso facto lost its objectivity. I don't think you're realizing the fundamental problem that a question as multifactorial as "what makes a dental school good" can't possibly be answered objectively, and without that prerequisite answer, any attempt at objective evaluation is predestined to fail.

I think you are making so good points here aphistis, even though I think you used the term ipso facto improperly. I am ambivalent to the entire concept of rankings. As you stated, every person looks for something different in schools. School A may be #1 on USNews, but it is on the other side of the country. Everybody looks for different things when choosing schools. Some people may be looking for a great clinical education, while some people are looking for a research opportunities. That does not mean that a good "research school" precludes a student from pursuing research, it just means that every school has it strengths. For that reason, it would be very hard to boil the schools down into a linear ranking system.

At one point in this process, I explained to my aunt that I choosing schools would be hard because they are all so different. She responded, "Schools are like people, they each have unique personalities." I think this underscores the arguement against rankings: To each his own.

Now for the part that may upset some of you: There is a part of me that thinks ranking is not so bad an idea. I think there is always a need for the external validation. This is why we have things like grades, GPAs, and the DAT. It is necesary to be able to measure the achievement of individuals against each other. In a perfect world this would not be necessary, but as we all know, life is not fair.

Some people care very much about the status of the school to which they are applying. What is so wrong with that? If that is what they care about, then let them care about that. Their desire to attent a top tier school in no way affects you. If you really don't believe in the rankings, then you shouldn't care about them! Rankings only exist because people want them to exist. When people stop caring, they will go away. Until that day, US News is here to stay.

 

[bspeedy00]

They don't all offer the exact same education, but they all meet certain educational requirements.

Are you currently in dental school? A seasoned student typically recognizes that a good program can still turn out a very poor dentist and a normal/mediocre program can turn out a superior dentist. How is this possible? It's because the burden of work lies on the student, NOT on the school.

Gavin: thank you for actually raising a counter point, and not just insulting me. If US News ranks med schools the way you say they do, I would say those rankings are crap then too, and obviously should not be done the same way if someone ever ranked dental programs. I will conceed that, yes, good programs can turn out poor dentists and vice versa. I will also conceed that all programs probably meet certain requirements. However, what has motivated me in this debate is that many of the people that oppose what I say seem to think that just meeting the requirement is good enough. I dont like that approach to education, practicing dentistry or anything in life. I want (and I would hope other want) to be the best, and not just get in and just graduate. Therefore, with my opinion that certain programs go above and beyond the minimum requirement, and prepare students better, I would want to determine which do so. This is where a ranking system might be of use. This is assuming that the rankings measured certain objective criteria (which I think exist, and I have listed previously). I have never disputed the fact that each school is capable of producing qualified dentists, but certain programs may offer extra insight/knowledge that isnt covered as fully in other programs, which MAY someday help you in your practice. Hypothetically, a program that is more demanding might help you cement a firmer understanding of some aspect of oral health that is vital to a patient of yours down the road. That is one piece of what I mean by a better program.

 

[nnjh]

You call two people agreeing with you, "several people"????

I dont know where this guy is coming from at all. Apparently he doesnt have much exposure to dentistry. There are a lot of bright people out there with very little social skills...so I want you to ponder this question, who would you rather have work on you:

A dentist who had average grades, average DAT, average NBDE but great ability to put a patient at ease AND communicate effectively (not to mention great clinical skills)

or

Some genious who has a 4.0 gpa, high DATs, and high NBDE scores but cant communicate effectively and is out of touch with reality (oh yeah and he/she is still stuck on where they went to undergrad and dental school...ie "obviously I am good, I went to Harvard")??

I am not saying every person who is categorized into the latter is going to have no social skills, but I have seen it (and it tends to occur pretty often)....I know I am generalizing...but you get the point.

The only point that I saw as a good one was upon being admitted to the school you work on a pass/fail scale rather than a typical grading scale...this tends to eliminate some competition (and "gunner activity").

Precarious Yups mentioned people who are extremely smart but arent very good in the lab. Before this semester, I wouldnt have understood this notion. As we speak, I am in Histology with a smart girl who cant use a microscope and is extremely immature (ie "I dont want to go to dental school at school "X" because its in the ghetto"). Can somebody please explain why there isn't more screening in the admissions process? Her DAT and GPA dont tell the whole story. I pity her patients.

Going back to ranking schools...do you need this to justify yourself to your town? I mean really whats the point? Clearly you are someone who doesn't get the big picture, that once we all get out and are practicing dentists, no one school educated an individual better than another individual. Its just that simple. They all prepare you to take boards, learn clinical technique and diagnose problems (there's more to it than that, but I am simplifying here). I really dont think there is that much disparity b/w faculty among all of the 54 schools across the nation. I am sure there are plenty of good, bad, and mediocre professors at each school, with no one school having a better faculty than another school. There is a lot more I want to say, but I dont want to waste my time. You have a lot to learn. There's more to life than prestige.

Whoa~ this is getting absurd... people who had high G.P.A's and DAT scores

and went to "big name" schools also generally scored higher on the board

exams "generally" seem to have bad social skills and have ten thumbs? People

who go to these schools have higher stats b/c they're harder workers. And

I agree that there's more to life than prestige. But it sure seems to open

more doors (higher rate of post doctorate / specialty acceptance). just my

2 cents.

 

[Zurik5]

10 schools that stand out based on what? Oops, you have to decide on criteria & prioritize them. Guess what; at that point, the ranking process has ipso facto lost its objectivity. I don't think you're realizing the fundamental problem that a question as multifactorial as "what makes a dental school good" can't possibly be answered objectively, and without that prerequisite answer, any attempt at objective evaluation is predestined to fail.

Bill is right... good use of ipso facto, btw I?m convinced that all dental schools suck, some just suck less than others?

 

[DREDAY]

OMG LMAO! it would be interesting to see what kind of stats and schools that the students who are against dental school ranking have. Also it would be interesting to know what schools accepted them and what schools they chose to attend. I wouldnt be surprised most people who are against the rankings did not get accepted to the aforementioned top programs, UCLA, UOP, UCSF, HARVARD, UPENN.

 

[seansk]

Probably very true, but there is more to life than prestige. There is a complete difference between being smart, and being able to drill into someones tooth.

 

[aphistis]

First off...



You give this response every time, but how has it lost objectivity. I am not going to re-list all the possibly ways to measure a school, but why does it not work?

I haven't explicitly mentioned the reason why it's impossible because I thought it was self-evident. Off the top of my head, let's just take a handful of factors people might use in choosing a dental school: cost, GPA of admitted students, specialization rates, class size, research money, and student satisfaction. This is only 6 criteria out of literally dozens different students will use to make their decision--and even with this tightly cropped list, if you polled a hundred people you'd find them arranged in a hundred different permutations.

That ambiguity is what I keep coming back to every time this question is raised, and it's the reason objective rankings are impossible without recomputing the rankings for every priority combination of the criteria being used--and if you do that, people are going to find the set of rankings that arranges schools according to their personal priorities, and at that point, guess what? You're right back where you started, complete subjectivity.

 

[aphistis]

EDIT: Deleted.

 

[aphistis]

I think you are making so good points here aphistis, even though I think you used the term ipso facto improperly.

Just for grins, from Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: ip?so fac?to
Pronunciation: 'ip-(")sO-'fak-(")tO
Function: adverb
Etymology: New Latin, literally, by the fact itself
: by that very fact or act : as an inevitable result

 

[DREDAY]

There's also a complete difference between drilling into someone's tooth and being a dentist. To borrow from another poster, there's a reason you don't see Dremel home restorative dentistry kits on store shelves, and that's without even touching the diagnostic & medical aspects of dentistry.

but you can say the same about any other profession. "Tere is a complete difference between knowing the law and being a lawyer." "there is a complete difference between knowing medicine and biology and being a doctor" whats your point?

 

[aphistis]

but you can say the same about any other profession. "Tere is a complete difference between knowing the law and being a lawyer." "there is a complete difference between knowing medicine and biology and being a doctor" whats your point?

My mistake. I misread your previous post, and deleted my reponse.