"Ranked to match"

[scootad.]

This is too much like dating. Like how some chicks like pick-up lines while others consider it sexual harassment.

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[b&ierstiefel]

Yeah...what's this calling stuff?? TOTALLY caught me off-guard!! I got a call last night around 8 pm from a PD. He was really nice and there was no pressure for me to talk or comment at all. He just stated that if I wanted to be at this certain school...I would be there. I just wonder about the truth?? Do they ONLY call people who are "ranked to match"?? Do they call their top 10 and hope that a few people on the fence flip their list in the program's favor?? hmmm....THE MATCH SUCKS!!! Only 5 more weeks of this $#@!

PDs, from my experience, call to see if you have any questions and start a conversation along the line of, "How can I convince you to come here?" Sometimes, a PD will call you to essentially tell you that you are ranked to match. Anything other than this, I doubt a PD would bother calling.

Also, there are only 13 days of this crap remaining cuz after Feb. 23rd, phone calls or correspondences won't do jack squat. What's done is done and the programs & applicants have turned in their "final answers."

 

[stormjen]

This is all so ridiculous! Programs either take the match rules too far and get their panties all in a wad over innocuous comments expressing enthusiasm, or they blatantly ignore the rules all together! Fok 'em all I say! Just be yer dern self.

 

[ddx]

so should you send a letter to your #2-4 stating that you're considering them highly? will they automatically think they're not #1 and rank you lower. or is it better to just keep your mouth shut if you're not asked?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

so should you send a letter to your #2-4 stating that you're considering them highly? will they automatically think they're not #1 and rank you lower. or is it better to just keep your mouth shut if you're not asked?

yeah, good question. i was pondering about this myself along with some other folks in the General Residency Issues forum. i ultimately decided to email my high up non-#1 programs that i would rank them highly in so many words. i hope that correspondences don't jeopardize our positions on their rank lists; in fact, they would be foolish to put you lower on their rank lists just because of this! what happens if you don't get your #1? well #2 has screwed themselves over if they really liked you but dropped you down their rank list just because of this "i will rank you very highly" type of correspondence. plus, i talked to my boss and advisor about crap like this. they told me that these letters, emails, phone calls, correspondences mean very little in the long run. they told me something along the lines of, "think about it, they are ranking you based on an application which took you lots of time to put together. then they interacted throughout the course of a day during your interviews. and now a simple letter telling the program that you're very highly interested is going to hurt you?"

 

[stormjen]

I told my #2 and #3 programs that I think very highly of them and plan to rank them accordingly. It's up to them to figure out what that means!

 

[Mantroe]

Have heard from all my programs but one. My top two ( by phone) outright said - If you rank us #1, you will match here. No pressure to answer back, so I just said that is very exciting and I am glad to hear it. I simply told each that I would be ranking them very highly and they seemed satisfied with that answer.

All the others gave the usual " we are ranking you very highly" line. Really don't know what to believe. I am just going to rank in order of my preference and let the chips fall where they may!

 

[yaah]

What are the match rules? I told an attending at a program I am hoping to go to that I'd really like to end up there - and he told me I was being inappropriate?! Bizarre!

It is not inappropriate for you to tell them you would like to end up there, unless you qualify it with an "are you interested in me?" type of question. Give and take is not allowed if there is a potential for deals, etc. Of course, programs flaunt this rule all the time. Technically, if a program calls you and hints that you will be ranked high there if you agree to rank them high, you can tell them they are being inappropriate and threaten to report them. Potentially, you could have a very winnable lawsuit on your hands. Whether you want to start your career off like this is questionable, however.

It is a match violation for them to do this. That is the point. If you don't like it, you can report them.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

It is not inappropriate for you to tell them you would like to end up there, unless you qualify it with an "are you interested in me?" type of question. Give and take is not allowed if there is a potential for deals, etc. Of course, programs flaunt this rule all the time. Technically, if a program calls you and hints that you will be ranked high there if you agree to rank them high, you can tell them they are being inappropriate and threaten to report them. Potentially, you could have a very winnable lawsuit on your hands. Whether you want to start your career off like this is questionable, however.

It is a match violation for them to do this. That is the point. If you don't like it, you can report them.

See that's the problem! The Match algorithm favors the applicant! However, the program has the upper hand!

well i guess that is sound in principle cuz we ARE peons.

 

[yaah]

The program only has the upper hand if you let them have the upper hand. You are not going to get blacklisted if you inform a program you aren't going to make any deals with them. They are trying to skirt the rules and they should be ready to face the consequences if they are going to deal with applicants in this way. Easier said than done, however.

 

[cytoborg]

Anyone else experiencing a frenzy of last-minute phone calls and emails? The onslaught started for me a few days ago and hasn't let up yet. The problem is that my ranklist is still in limbo...walking the fine line of expressing my strong interest while remaining non-committal is tough. I don't want to seem uninterested, or political...and every phone call gets me all confused about my ROL all over again.

Then there's the whole "Do you have any more questions about our program?" Can't exactly ask the real questions like, "Will I screw myself out of a good job later if I go to your program?" or "Do you think I'll be treated like crap if I decide not to do academics?" or "Why aren't your residents getting better fellowships?"

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Anyone else experiencing a frenzy of last-minute phone calls and emails? The onslaught started for me a few days ago and hasn't let up yet. The problem is that my ranklist is still in limbo...walking the fine line of expressing my strong interest while remaining non-committal is tough. I don't want to seem uninterested, or political...and every phone call gets me all confused about my ROL all over again.

Then there's the whole "Do you have any more questions about our program?" Can't exactly ask the real questions like, "Will I screw myself out of a good job later if I go to your program?" or "Do you think I'll be treated like crap if I decide not to do academics?" or "Why aren't your residents getting better fellowships?"

I wouldn't call it a frenzy but I did receive two calls yesterday and a letter in the mail. Both calls involved, "Do you have any more questions; what can we tell you to convince you to rank us near the top?" or something like that. Seriously, if we had more questions we would have asked them already. I mean think about it, when programs call us, we only want to hear five words:
You
Are
Ranked
To
Match
or if brevity is your thing, YARTM.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Somebody said that there are a few PD's or department chairs that call the night before certified ROL's become final? My phone will be turned off from Feb 22nd 8 pm to Feb 23rd 9 pm.

 

[cytoborg]

I wouldn't call it a frenzy but I did receive two calls yesterday and a letter in the mail. Both calls involved, "Do you have any more questions; what can we tell you to convince you to rank us near the top?" or something like that. Seriously, if we had more questions we would have asked them already. I mean think about it, when programs call us, we only want to hear five words:
You
Are
Ranked
To
Match
or if brevity is your thing, YARTM.

They could just send emails with YARTM in the subject line. Save everybody a lot of angst.

 

[cytoborg]

Somebody said that there are a few PD's or department chairs that call the night before certified ROL's become final? My phone will be turned off from Feb 22nd 8 pm to Feb 23rd 9 pm.

I can see that happening. Definately will be avoiding the phone at all costs. Not that I don't enjoy the positive feedback, but every time they call I start sweating and stuttering like an idiot. It's stressful.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I can see that happening. Definately will be avoiding the phone at all costs. Not that I don't enjoy the positive feedback, but every time they call I start sweating and stuttering like an idiot. It's stressful.

And if it happens to be that they rank me lower just because I didn't pick up (thereby forgoing the opportunity to express that much more enthusiasm about a particular program)...well so be it. But, that's just not cool; in fact, it's totally lame.

 

[QuietSylph]

Then there's the whole "Do you have any more questions about our program?" Can't exactly ask the real questions like, "Will I screw myself out of a good job later if I go to your program?" or "Do you think I'll be treated like crap if I decide not to do academics?" or "Why aren't your residents getting better fellowships?"

Wouldn't that make life SO much easier?

 

[geddy]

I can see that happening. Definately will be avoiding the phone at all costs. Not that I don't enjoy the positive feedback, but every time they call I start sweating and stuttering like an idiot. It's stressful.

Just play it cool, man. Make a list of generic questions - "Well, saw that you're taking X applicants. How many total applicants are you ranking? Make small talk about what you liked about their program, tell them that you will rank them highly, and thank them for calling. Of course, if you don't like the program, omit the last 3 items

I highly doubt the conversation will have any impact on where you are ranked - most program rank list are finished, I'm sure. It's really just a way for them to tell you that they like you, while making it more personal. After all, they can't just call and say "we like you" - what would you say then? Maybe you could reply "do you like me like me, or do you just like me?"

 

[joedogma]

Maybe you could reply "do you like me like me, or do you just like me?"

I had a PD call me saying "you complete me..."

 

[Pingu]

I got a 'things look good' What 'things' exactly he was referring to I have no idea

 

[stormjen]

Anyone else experiencing a frenzy of last-minute phone calls and emails?

No. But congratulations to you folks who are getting them.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I highly doubt the conversation will have any impact on where you are ranked - most program rank list are finished, I'm sure. It's really just a way for them to tell you that they like you, while making it more personal. After all, they can't just call and say "we like you" - what would you say then? Maybe you could reply "do you like me like me, or do you just like me?"

Paranoia aside, I would tend to agree with you geddy. The programs that have called me have said that the important meetings have taken place and that the ROL is set and they are calling me to let me know roughly where I am on their list. I end up just telling them that I liked their program very much. Then I use the time to clarify certain key points about their program and it makes for a short discussion. Basically, the more talking they do, the better. All you gotta do is bring up a few points and let them do the talking. And they like talking so the more talking they do, they feel better about the conversation. Usually I end it with, "I think all of this is totally awesome....thank you for your call."

 

[deschutes]

I would imagine that PD's are pretty used to hearing people flustered with these home calls. We all have lives outside of medicine..... squealing babies, painting the town red, catching up on sleep, you name it.

A PD spoke to two separate housemates before finally getting to me on the third try. I think he freaked them out more than he freaked me - I was lucky to be forewarned!

 

[yaah]

So no one has received cash in the mail yet, or the very attractive "assistant professor" knocking on your door at 9pm with the offer to "convince you" to rank them higher?

Yaah 1, rest of path applicant world, 0.

 

[Gut Shot]

No. But congratulations to you folks who are getting them.

I'm also listening to the crickets chirp. Perhaps we just applied to introverted programs.

 

[deschutes]

Yaah 1, rest of path applicant world, 0.

I received cash in the mail. But I am resistant to such tactics

 

[yaah]

As was I. They called and asked if I got the cash and I said, "Huh? What cash?"

 

[EvilTaz]

I had one PD tell me that not only was I ranked to match, but that they'll let me become a pathologist without actually doing the residency just as long they have the honor of having me officially part of their program. Then he asked if I would rank them number one. I said no and he took it all back.

But seriously, my top choice told me I was ranked to match (woo hoo!!) so I've told all the other programs that they are not number one choice, or even told them I won't be going there. Bad choice? Maybe. But I like to live on the wild side. Plus, they stop calling/emailing/mailing me all the time which is a good thing.

 

[yaah]

Hmmm...hopefully for you they were telling the truth. If not, you may have a lawsuit on your hands (did you record the phone call? )

 

[b&ierstiefel]

You know what? Screw it all! Just give us our damn results on the 17th of March!
All this suspense...I can't take it anymore!

 

[Mrbojangles]

I'm also listening to the crickets chirp. Perhaps we just applied to introverted programs.

I haven't heard anything. Zilch, nada, zip... Not even from a few safeties I interviewed at. I feel like I'm repeating my medical school acceptance period when I was put on 4 wait lists and kept waiting into late July .

 

[yaah]

You know what? Screw it all! Just give us our damn results on the 17th of March!
All this suspense...I can't take it anymore!

Yeah, that sucked last year when I got that email on monday that said, "Congratulations! You have matched!" Yeah, no ****. So tell me where. I promise I won't tell anyone!

I seriously think the only reason they wait the next 3-4 days is so that people who didn't match and then scramble into a spot can feel better about themselves on match day when their name is up there like everyone else. But unless they live in a bubble, people are going to know that they were spending the last few days trying to find a spot. So just tell us!!

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Yeah, that sucked last year when I got that email on monday that said, "Congratulations! You have matched!" Yeah, no ****. So tell me where. I promise I won't tell anyone!

I seriously think the only reason they wait the next 3-4 days is so that people who didn't match and then scramble into a spot can feel better about themselves on match day when their name is up there like everyone else. But unless they live in a bubble, people are going to know that they were spending the last few days trying to find a spot. So just tell us!!

Waiting a whole 3 weeks? C'mon it's a computer man! I think this whole process is absurd. The Match sucks donkey balls.

 

[yaah]

I know. You know the computer has it all figured out within 5 minutes and has also gone through all of the permutations and irregularities and solved them.

 

[stormjen]

So no one has received cash in the mail yet, or the very attractive "assistant professor" knocking on your door at 9pm with the offer to "convince you" to rank them higher?

No, but I showed up at a PD's door with cash and was promptly turned away.

 

[stormjen]

I'm also listening to the crickets chirp. Perhaps we just applied to introverted programs.

heehee

 

[cytoborg]

No, but I showed up at a PD's door with cash and was promptly turned away.

I fedexed some oatmeal raisin cookies. The package was returned to me. It's their loss, really. They were damned good.

 

[cytoborg]

I haven't heard anything. Zilch, nada, zip... Not even from a few safeties I interviewed at. I feel like I'm repeating my medical school acceptance period when I was put on 4 wait lists and kept waiting into late July .

There are a couple of programs I haven't heard diddly squat from, either. There seems to be a huge range of responses so I'm sure it depends on the program. Some programs showered me with positive feedback, cash, trips to Cabo, and cars. One program imperiously informed me that the fact that I was lucky enough to get an interview from them indicates that I am a strong candidate (same peeps who told me I had to rank them #1 if I wanted to be ranked at all)...another program told me thanks for the interest, and have a nice life. (ouch) Then complete silence from others. Who knows what it all means.

 

[skoller]

...

But seriously, my top choice told me I was ranked to match (woo hoo!!) so I've told all the other programs that they are not number one choice, or even told them I won't be going there. Bad choice? Maybe. But I like to live on the wild side. Plus, they stop calling/emailing/mailing me all the time which is a good thing.

That was gutsy and selfless, IMHO. My top choice told me YARTM, too, after which there was much celebration. Now, though, I'm feeling guilty about all the programs I told I would rank "very highly," when some of them are not now in fact ranked very highly at all, and when I am near certain that I will not be going there. I feel like I should do what EvilTaz did so that other applicants might move up on the lists at these programs ... anyone else in the same boat? I guess it's probably too late - doubtful a program would change its ROL based on anything I tell them now.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

That was gutsy and selfless, IMHO. My top choice told me YARTM, too, after which there was much celebration. Now, though, I'm feeling guilty about all the programs I told I would rank "very highly," when some of them are not now in fact ranked very highly at all, and when I am near certain that I will not be going there. I feel like I should do what EvilTaz did so that other applicants might move up on the lists at these programs ... anyone else in the same boat? I guess it's probably too late - doubtful a program would change its ROL based on anything I tell them now.

There's nothing to feel bad about though. Consider the following two extreme scenarios:

1. You tell these other non-#1 programs that you are not ranking them #1. They get all pissed off and drop you off their list. Other candidates move up one spot on the program's rank list.

2. You do nothing. They keep you on the rank list. But you match at your #1. The other programs, assuming they also ranked you highly, will not get you and will move down the list past your name and try to match the candidates below you.

The end result on Match day? The same.

Don't feel bad about what you're doing. This whole Match has devolved into a sick game of words when it comes down to communications between applicants and programs. Unfortunately, we all have to play around in this playground and hope that no kids get hurt.

BTW, congratulations on getting the YARTM note from your #1...it must be a huge relief to hear this.

 

[stormjen]

If I get into my top choice, I will buy everyone here a new Segway.

 

[SLUsagar]

If I get into my top choice, I will buy everyone here a new Segway.

ENOUGH of the lies my friend...

you know you won't get us all segways -- be realistic: I-PODS for everyone!!!

 

[Logos']

...

 

[joedogma]

Can someone please explain to me why these programs need to know if they are your number 1? I know that if a program doesn't fill it looks bad for the program but why does it matter how far down their list they go? Do they get less NIH funding? Do the PD's have to sit in the corner at the annual PD's banquet if they go too far down their list? I know programs don't want to fill for the sake of filling and want the best applicants possible but whats with the high pressure sales pitches? The "If you don't rank us #1 we can't rank you" approach is crazy. Just let the match work itself out. I think some of these PD's exist in a vacuum...they should rank the best candidates accordingly, maybe give the candidates some positive feedback, and let the computer do the chugging. Obviously I have never been a PD and maybe I have a cavalier attitude towards this whole thing, but can somebody tell me why some of these PD's need to know who they can count on to match now? Sometimes I get the feeling that they are losing sleep over whether or not they are going to go too far down their list...

 

[yaah]

I think it's ego boosting and nothing more. They like to be able to state that they only went to #5 or whatever on their rank list. Never mind that the only way they are getting this success is being manipulative and probably losing a few good candidates along the way, though.

I don't think they get any more funding, or prestige, or whatever. And as we have seen there are no "rankings" of path programs where something like this would matter. So all that is really left is self satisfaction and praise. They can tell every residency candidate that comes through (and every potential faculty candidate as well) that they always only go to #5 on their rank list to get their 4 spots, or however many in it.

It is complete crap and anyone with half a brain can see through this, and you would think that shenanigans of this nature would be beyond a bunch of otherwise intelligent people who are supposedly in the business of and committed to resident education.

But the alternative explanation is that they have done some kind of research into it and have found that by doing this they persuade candidates to rank them #1 who otherwise may not have. It is sleazy and manipulative though, and not worth it. I am not sure what the penalties for violating the match protocol is, but potentially it is exclusion from the match and loss of accreditation. If an applicant violates the terms of the match they risk their match being revoked as a result. Programs shouldn't be held to any less standards.

end rant.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Some programs may have this immense fear of not filling their program. At the same time, they also know that applicants have some degree of insecurity. They will use this to their advantage with these kinds of shenanigans. "Rank us #1 and you will get a spot here" or "If you don't rank us #1, you will not likely be high on our list." Candidates can opt to take these offers as an "easy way out." Or candidates can decide to strap on some cajones and keep it real while going through this stupid Match.