Ranking advice

[kindasorta]

I know ranking programs is a personal thing, but I'm looking for some feedback. I'm considering ranking HSS over several mid-tierish University programs (like Kentucky or IU or MCW or Minnesota, for example). Excluding personal feelings on the programs, like how comfortable I'd be, the location, etcetera, does anyone think I'm doing myself a disservice just from an academic and job prospect perspective? I should point out that I don't dislike the HSS program, in fact there is a lot I like about it. My only reservation is that is it looked down upon, and only those who don't know any better think it's a good program.

Sure the allure of the Harvard name is strong, and while I know it's not MGH, people seem to do really well after graduating, or so I hear, and you have the private practice marketability to say you trained at Hahhvaard. I know some disagree as to the utility of that, but I find that somewhat hard to believe.

I guess I'm asking if a rank list that looks like:

1) HSS
2) Kentucky/IU/MCW/Minnesota, etc....

is crazy or understandable, from an outsider's perspective.


Thanks for your thoughts!

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[SmallBird]

I don't think you will be short changing yourself in terms of those perspectives. The disadvantages I considered to be significant when visiting the program was the distance from the other Harvard programs, which I felt would make it difficult to become involved with research happening there. The usual criticism of it being all at the VA is not really true, as they have a lot of rotations at other sites. And their residents do do well with fellowships. If you like the feel of the program, I wouldn't worry about it being career limiting to any significant extent.

 

[shan564]

I don't think you will be short changing yourself in terms of those perspectives. The disadvantages I considered to be significant when visiting the program was the distance from the other Harvard programs, which I felt would make it difficult to become involved with research happening there. The usual criticism of it being all at the VA is not really true, as they have a lot of rotations at other sites. And their residents do do well with fellowships. If you like the feel of the program, I wouldn't worry about it being career limiting to any significant extent.

What about if you compare it to a "higher tier" Midwestern program like WashU or Mayo?

 

[SmallBird]

I don't think either will leave you with any barriers in terms of academic and job prospects, which were the parameters of evaluation given by the OP. There are of course a host of other factors.

I won't deny that when I interviewed there, the idea that it is quite likely the least prestigious of the 4 Harvard programs was a concern to me, but not for any reason that I am proud of. I would not have had the same misgivings about the other two programs you mentioned.

 

[mass1]

FWIW, I ranked HSS over programs such as WashU, Baylor, Dartmouth, and other east coast programs last year...and I know others who ranked it over Mayo and Longwood.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Do you want an academic gig in Massachusetts? If so, go hss.

If you want an academic gig in the Midwest, go Midwest.

None of the programs you mentioned are really a huge advantage over the other. If you are planning to go into private practice or take a salaried gig, your networking skills and business sense are much more important.

Name of the program only goes so far. Many Texans would prefer to see an A&M doc over a Dartmouth doc. The same could probably be said for those in Kentucky over Duke.

Docs worry about the name of a program probably over any category of patients. Networking, word of mouth, and quality of care will get you much further.

 

[kindasorta]

Thing is, I don't want to be tied to any specific region, which is why I think "name" has some importance. I also don't think I want to do academics. Which is also why I don't think the academic, yet random, names would be of much service with respect to marketing. WashU is a great example. In medical circles it's meaningful - but to the random patient, it probably is rather uninspiring. Anyhow that's why I'm thinking HSS above some of these programs.

Any more thoughts are welcome. I just want to be sure I'm not grossly overlooking something. Or being a complete fool.

 

[shan564]

thing is, i don't want to be tied to any specific region, which is why i think "name" has some importance.

+1

i also don't think i want to do academics.

-1


(sorry to threadjack, but I think we both have fairly similar decisions to make)

 

[kindasorta]

no problem man, i don't mind

 

[billypilgrim37]

Thing is, I don't want to be tied to any specific region, which is why I think "name" has some importance. I also don't think I want to do academics.

If you don't want to do academics, then you really shouldn't be considering much of anything other than where you want to live and where you think you'll be happy. The value of the Harvard name will only last for as long as it takes for them to decide if they like you or not. If you're going to HSS for just the name, you're probably playing with fire.

Some folks will be impressed, some won't care, but some might even be actively unimpressed, as HSS gets a lot of (probably undeserved) negative publicity. Would you rather be "the doc from Kentucky" or "the doc that went to that program that says it's Harvard but nobody think it's really any good"? Because that latter sentiment might come up with some peers about as often as people will be impressed by the Harvard name. Which is to say, on both accounts, not very often.

You might also underestimate the degree to which folks in some areas are actively resentful of things like the Harvard name and much more proud of their local university. Though based on a 20 year old basketball game, the Duke-in-Kentucky example is a very good one. A good chunk of Kentuckians might very well say, "I don't want to see you. You're going to think you're better than me, and you're not. And I hate Christian Laettner." The fact that Rand Paul went to Duke medical school is one of the biggest hits against him in Kentucky (since being bat**** crazy doesn't seem to hurt him one bit).

 

[twright]

Thing is, I don't want to be tied to any specific region, which is why I think "name" has some importance. I also don't think I want to do academics. Which is also why I don't think the academic, yet random, names would be of much service with respect to marketing. WashU is a great example. In medical circles it's meaningful - but to the random patient, it probably is rather uninspiring. Anyhow that's why I'm thinking HSS above some of these programs.

Any more thoughts are welcome. I just want to be sure I'm not grossly overlooking something. Or being a complete fool.

If you don't want to go into academia and you don't want to be tied to a particular region, that will make your decision a little more difficult. If a non-academic hospital in South Dakota is hiring a psychiatrist, then you are trying to wonder whether (a) the Harvard South Shore-trained graduate will have an edge over (b) the University Hospital of South Dakota-trained graduate who is much more likely to be known in the community. (I don't even know if there is a UHSD, just an example.) In this sort of situation the UHSD graduate is likely to have the edge, as academic 'reputation' (leaving aside for the moment whether HSS graduates actually go forth with any academic reputation at all) matters much less.

So then you really should be trying to make a residency decision based on where you think you want to practice. It really, really doesn't make sense for someone to say "I'm going to pick Boofoo Kentucky Community Hospital Residency Program because eventually I think I will want to practice in Minnesota." It just doesn't.

 

[TexasPhysician]

If you don't want to go into academia and you don't want to be tied to a particular region, that will make your decision a little more difficult. If a non-academic hospital in South Dakota is hiring a psychiatrist, then you are trying to wonder whether (a) the Harvard South Shore-trained graduate will have an edge over (b) the University Hospital of South Dakota-trained graduate who is much more likely to be known in the community. (I don't even know if there is a UHSD, just an example.) In this sort of situation the UHSD graduate is likely to have the edge, as academic 'reputation' (leaving aside for the moment whether HSS graduates actually go forth with any academic reputation at all) matters much less.

So then you really should be trying to make a residency decision based on where you think you want to practice. It really, really doesn't make sense for someone to say "I'm going to pick Boofoo Kentucky Community Hospital Residency Program because eventually I think I will want to practice in Minnesota." It just doesn't.

Exactly. Also in many locations that have a shortage of psych docs, any doc will thrive.

The Harvard name would probably help some in the NE region. Outside of that, it probably pulls little weight. Cali folks would prefer Cali grads. College Station folks prefer A&M grads. Ann Arbor would prefer Michigan grads. The NE loves the Ivies, but elsewhere football and local ties mean more.

 

[notdeadyet]

kindasorta- You really seem vested in that Harvard name on the resume, which is fine. Everyone has their own set of priorities. But if you want to take the advice on this thread to heart, HSS isn't going to be kicking open any doors for you but won't be slamming any shut either. Neither will Kentucky, IU, MCW, etc.

So you may want to consider choosing the program that will give you the opportunity to be the best psychiatrist you can. This will have nothing to do with the name on the degree. It will have to do with the program's exposure to patient diversity and acuity. It will have to do with the variety of modalities you will gain experience in and how well you will learn them. It is about how well the resident's go the extra mile for their patients, their co-residents and their program. It is how much the program works the residents intelligently (as opposed to exploit them) so that they further their clinical accumen with minimal mindless tasks. It is about how much the program is open to making allowances and getting creative so that you can carve out the experience you're looking for.

The nationally renowned big name academic centers are key for one thing: getting jobs at nationally renowned big name academic centers. Outside of that, you should really be choosing the best program for you. There's this fallacy that having a Harvard or UCSF or Yale name on your residency will give you this edge the rest of your life, but the fact is that like literally any field, you are basically as good as your last job. Fresh out of residency, it will matter. After that, it will be where you last worked and specifically how well you worked. As for private patients, unless you're trying to stock an Axis II only clinic (and God help you), your patients will care more about how long the wait is for the first appointment and how convenient parking is than where you did your residency. Anyone in practice will tell you that word of mouth and referrals is the key and that isn't based on where you did your residency (again, unless it's a locality thing where you can count on lots of alma mater grads for referrals).

Again, not judging. Everyone has their own criteria for choosing a residency program. But if you focus more on which program will give you the opportunity to be the best possible psychiatrist, you can't lose. You'll do better work and that will be the best asset when you try to get jobs or private patients. Best of luck with your decision.

 

[kindasorta]

Appreciate it everyone. I should note that HSS isn't #1 on my rank list, I was just trying to figure out how to place it amongst the mid-tier type programs. Ideally I'd like to practice west of the rockies, however I don't like the programs I've received interviews from out there, so location for me really is a bit of a conundrum. No matter where I do residency, by virtue of where I've been given good interviews, I will be wanting to move to a location that isn't nearby and has no local connections.

Isn't this process a treat?

 

[TexasPhysician]

Appreciate it everyone. I should note that HSS isn't #1 on my rank list, I was just trying to figure out how to place it amongst the mid-tier type programs. Ideally I'd like to practice west of the rockies, however I don't like the programs I've received interviews from out there, so location for me really is a bit of a conundrum. No matter where I do residency, by virtue of where I've been given good interviews, I will be wanting to move to a location that isn't nearby and has no local connections.

Isn't this process a treat?

If it were me, I'd do residency in a place you feel most comfortable. It is 4 years! Then -

Since fellowships are so uncompetitive, get into a 1 year fellowship at a Harvard type program. You can still say you are Ivy trained and it is only 1 year - assuming Boston isn't a dream location.

If hss is your favorite though, there is no reason to have the debate. Go for it.

 

[twright]

Appreciate it everyone. I should note that HSS isn't #1 on my rank list, I was just trying to figure out how to place it amongst the mid-tier type programs. Ideally I'd like to practice west of the rockies, however I don't like the programs I've received interviews from out there, so location for me really is a bit of a conundrum. No matter where I do residency, by virtue of where I've been given good interviews, I will be wanting to move to a location that isn't nearby and has no local connections.

Isn't this process a treat?

As I wrote earlier, you're in a difficult position. As I read it, you were basically hoping to get into a California psych residency (or, perhaps secondarily, a program in Oregon or Washington) but didn't get interviews at the programs you wanted and didn't care much for the programs where you did interview there. So you are basically left with mid/low-tier programs east of the Rockies and are wondering whether there are any characteristics of those programs that might help you in your future job search.

Unfortunately, I'll reiterate that the answer is no.
Graduating from a relatively unknown program in Mississippi is not going to help you get into a (prestigious or not-prestigious) job in southern California. Graduating from Columbia might help you get a job at UCSF or UCLA, but even then it should be noted that graduating from Columbia probably won't help you get a job at Central San Joaquin Valley Psychiatric Institute.

You're basically left with picking a residency that you feel would be the best fit for you personally.

 

[kindasorta]

^thanks although your analysis of my position is incorrect. Not looking to get into a California residency at all (didn't apply there) and have interviews at high-tiers east of the rockies. I didn't involve those in this ranking discussion because I already know how I'm ranking them with respect to HSS and the other programs mentioned above.

Also, I thought there was a big psych shortage? Now I hear from you that someone from Columbia would have a hard time getting a job at San Joaquin Valley Psych Repository? Many have said it doesn't matter where you do residency when it comes to looking for a job. Are they wrong?

 

[shan564]

Also, I thought there was a big psych shortage? Now I hear from you that someone from Columbia would have a hard time getting a job at San Joaquin Valley Psych Repository? Many have said it doesn't matter where you do residency when it comes to looking for a job. Are they wrong?

I think he meant that a person from Columbia wouldn't have any advantage over a person from IU or MCW, not that a person from Columbia wouldn't be able to get a job.