Ranking D.O. Schools - Should Your School Be #1?

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Touche. I see both yours and Hanks point.

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KidT
[email protected]
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Originally posted by reed0104:
Hank Hill, what the hell was that?

I'm in your class, I don't know who you are, we might even be friends, but your description of our school is pretty bogus.

It's true we have a couple teachers who need to go, but it's no big deal.

All I can say is the more I study the material, the better scores I get, it correlates little to our faculty's quality.

DMU is not a bad place to be, I really like it, the people are nice and my classmates are the best I've ever had in undergrad or grad. school

GOOD DMU profs:

Dr. Matz - Anatomy
Dr. Mulleur - Biochem
Dr. Hills - Biochem
Dr. Finnerty - Neuro
Dr. Wattleworth PD
Dr. Martin - PD
Dr. Canby - Histo
Dr. Khan - Anatomy
Dr. Simpson - Micro
Dr. Wakabongo - Micro
Dr. Johnson - Micro (Hard but Fair)
Dr. Valder - anat/histo
etc...etc...

Hank Hill and I have way different opinions and take the exact same classes at the exact same school. Make of that what you will.

DMU
D.O. 04'
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I am in your class as well and to be honest do not agree at all with your top professor list. In my opinion

1. Mueller
2. Canby
3. Steele
4. Boesler
5. Hills

Your ranking of any anatomy or PD instructors is questionable. Matz was great in lab but lecture was not his strong suit. How many times have you tried to take notes and have Khan make a mistake and correct himself several times on the same point.

As far as PD is concerened, they have ruined that experience for me. I did very well on the exam and first SPAL but Martin's condescending attitude kills me. Take a look at all the grammar/spelling mistakes in his handouts (remember points are taken off on our SPALS for these errors). Also, how fair is it to publish a syllabus then give a revision and then change it back right before the exam. Most medical schools would spring for the cash to give us the experience in pelvic exams. Try setting up your OB rotation and tell the doc that you have never done a real exam but you are an expert on plastic figures.


 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by kidterrific:
Touche. I see both yours and Hanks point.

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Now why couldn't Rolltide ever have made things that easy Shoe?
smile.gif


lol
mj

[This message has been edited by mj (edited 03-05-2001).]
 
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FYI-

You will get a hands-on GYN lab in your 2nd year. You will perform a pelvic exam and be given feedback by the patient. You may not like Dr. Martin and his teaching style may not be the best, but he does really care about students. He's used to teaching residents and often expects that caliber of knowledge out of us. He's leaving in April, so the folks at NOVA will have him...There are alot of things you may not like about DMU, but come COMLEX time, you'll appreciate the education you got. I say this from experience, as we're in the middle of board review and I'm realizing I learned alot more than I thought.

Stef
DMU MS-2
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by Kansai:
FYI-

You will get a hands-on GYN lab in your 2nd year. You will perform a pelvic exam and be given feedback by the patient. You may not like Dr. Martin and his teaching style may not be the best, but he does really care about students. He's used to teaching residents and often expects that caliber of knowledge out of us. He's leaving in April, so the folks at NOVA will have him...There are alot of things you may not like about DMU, but come COMLEX time, you'll appreciate the education you got. I say this from experience, as we're in the middle of board review and I'm realizing I learned alot more than I thought.

Stef
DMU MS-2•
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Good to know, its nice to get constuctive feedback.
 
Rusty and all others--

I believe that a more objective standard should be used to rank the different Osteopathic schools. Instead of just looking at how one person or a small group of people feel about their school or another, why don't we compare the part one and two COMLEX scores from all of the schools. Let the overall score be the standard, let's not break it up into disciplines as we all know that each school has strengths and faults. This would be the best reflection of what we are learning not only at the various schools, but also in the affiliated rotation sites of the schools.

Just as an aside, all of this degradation of Osteopathic programs weather from an internal or external point of view, just reminds me that our biggest obstacle as Osteopathic physicians is ourselves. United we stand, divided we fall.
"Keeping in mind the Osteopathic concept, the human body does not function in separate units, but as a harmonious whole, and the fellow who masters it as such, will find that he is the Specialist of all Specialists, and that is a life-time job for any man or woman." -A.T. Still
The human body can not function in separate units, neither can we as future Osteopathic Physicians.

Mike
 
Posted by Kansai:You may not like Dr. Martin and his teaching style may not be the best, but he does really care about students. He's used to teaching residents and often expects that caliber of knowledge out of us. He's leaving in April, so the folks at NOVA will have him...

Reply:I don?t dislike Dr. Martin, and I completely agree with you that he ?does really care about students?. The problem with Martin is that his notes are disorganized, filled with blatant errors, and his ethics course is a disgrace. I don?t think that this is his fault though. This guy is/was trying to be the chair of family practice, course coordinator for ethics, assistant course coordinator for physical diagnosis, he likely was giving a few 2nd year lectures (if not I?m sorry), and on top of all of that he still had his patients to care for. Thats too much responsibility, and DMU should be able to recognize it as so.

Posted by Kansai:There are alot of things you may not like about DMU, but come COMLEX time, you'll appreciate the education you got.

Reply: I truly hope so, but I am having my doubts right now. Thanks for posting.


hankhill


 
Posted by lightning:Just as an aside, all of this degradation of Osteopathic programs
weather from an internal or external point of view, just reminds me that our biggest
obstacle as Osteopathic physicians is ourselves. United we stand, divided we fall.
"Keeping in mind the Osteopathic concept, the human body does not function in separate units, but as a harmonious whole, and the fellow who masters it as such, will find that he is the Specialist of all Specialists, and that is a life-time job for any man or woman." -A.T. Still
The human body can not function in separate units, neither can we as future Osteopathic Physicians.

Reply:I see your point, however I will argue that AT Still is one of the most opinionated, outspoken men who has ever lived. He founded osteopathic medicine by
speaking up and challenging the accepted beliefs of his time about medicine. His ability to constantly look for a better way of doing things was one of his greatest attributes. I don?t buy into the notion that ?united we stand, divided we fall?. A difference of opinions in society, medicine, and life is healthy. Osteopathic medicine is only as strong as its weakest link, and no matter how united you may be, the weak link will always be visible. AT Still had an opportunity to either stay united with the medicine of his time or look for a better way of treating disease. He chose to search for a more effective way of cureing patients. For us not to continue questioning the accepted beliefs of our time as osteopaths would be a crime to our founder. All of this in my humble opinion.


hankhill

 
There seems to be a theme among osteopathic students that we must stick together and not critsize the school or proffesion. This is a misguided approach in that it assumes that there is nothing wrong with the system.

All the rhetoric about the positive aspects of the rotation scam is laughable. At DMU, we asked the dean some simple questions about rotations and preceptorships and got stone walled.

The more I learn about osteopathic medicine the more I lean toward an allopathic residency. The disorganization of my school leaves me feeling like I am part of a diploma mill and only good for 24+ k a year. Students are held to the letter regarding the syllabus and school rules but the administration changes them at their convenience.

No one expects med school to be easy and we all know people who would give anything to be in our shoes. It gets discouraging when hard work does not result in a reward.

Homer S
 
hmmmmmmmm....familiar theme here, let the odyssea continue.
divided we fall, united we look like a bunch of hypocritical ostriches ignoring our problems....it is a problem aint it.
 
Yes adrian the predicament we as osteo students are in is a double edged swork. However, to Hankhill, in regards to DMU I have an opinion. As a student in your class i have found that all of the info that we need to understand concepts are located in the lecture notes and/or notepool. In fact, I have not attended a "nonrequired" lecture in 2 months and have consistently scored very well on exams. This just goes to show that it is up to US as students to learn the info. I guess if you need help talk to the profs. I would guess that you would complain if you were at any school. By the way, were you forced to be on the 5-year program?
 
Posted by Lars:to Hankhill, in regards to DMU I have an opinion. As a student in your
class i have found that all of the info that we need to understand concepts are located in the lecture notes and/or notepool.

Reply:For some professors that is true, but for many that couldn?t be further from the
truth.

Posted by Lars:In fact, I have not attended a "nonrequired" lecture in 2 months and
have consistently scored very well on exams. This just goes to show that it is up to US as students to learn the info

Reply:Good for you. I?m glad that you are doing well. I guess there is a good reason
why that you haven?t attended lecture in 2 months. I?ll agree with you that the majority of time, lecture is a waste (if that is the reason why you don?t attend). That is part of my argument though. Lecture should be worthwhile. We are paying them
for that service aren?t we? Sure they show up most of the time, but the quality is so
poor that close to half (my estimate open to discrimination) of us don?t go anymore.

Posted by Lars:Yes adrian the predicament we as osteo students are in is a double
edged swork. However, . I guess if you need help talk to the profs.

Reply: Thanks for the advice. When/if I need help, I do talk with the professors.

Posted by Lars:By the way, were you forced to be on the 5-year program?

Reply: No, but would it matter?

Posted by Lars:I would guess that you would complain if you were at any school

Reply: I?m sorry that you think that, but I am not afraid to voice my opinion even
though someone like you will come along and accuse me of being a below average
student while knowing very little about me. It couldn?t be possible that a good or even average student could be so upset about the quality of education they are receiving at DMU.
 
Hank, I probably did assume too much from your posts. No, it would not matter if you were the top or the last student in the class. Your arguments have validity and are worth discussing. However, we attend DMU. What good does it do to paste "DMU is the worst school" all over these forums. All it may do is to get people to believe you (whether you are right or wrong). So, then they may not apply here, or just think that it is an inferior school. Is this how you want your future colleagues to view your and my education? Of course not. This is why i am a little ticked off at all of your anti-dmu posts.
As far as I am concerned, i think that at any med school you are presented with the same material (more or less), and it is up to the student to learn it.
 
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Posted by Lars:Hank, I probably did assume too much from your posts. No, it would
not matter if you were the top or the last student in the class. Your arguments have
validity and are worth discussing.

Reply: Thanks for admitting that the arguments are valid.

Posted by Lars: However, we attend DMU. What good does it do to paste "DMU is the worst school" all over these forums. All it may do is to get people to believe you (whether you are right or wrong).

Reply: When you were an applicant, didn?t you want to get an inside perspective on
the schools which you were applying to? I know I did. I?ve been reading these boards
for a long time now, and I never heard anyone talk negatively about DMU?s basic
sciences when I was deciding whether to attend here or another school. I researched
this school, and I didn?t find anything to lead me to believe that it had so many
issues. I now know that it does, and you at least conceded that my arguments have some validity (thanks again for being rational). In answer to your question, I am informing the people of this board of my opinion. I have already emphasized that I am only one
person with one opinion and that I am not speaking for anyone else but myself. Others, including yourself, have come on this board with differing viewpoints and I have tried to be congenial and fair minded when debating the issue with them and you. When
you say that ?All it may do is to get people to believe you (whether you are right or
wrong),? I reply that people have just as much opportunity to believe you or some of
the others that have sided against my take on the quality of education at DMU. I think that is fair. Let people hear both sides of the argument and make their own decision. To say that one side of the debate should not be heard is incorrect in my opinion. When I go to make a decision, I like to hear all angles on the situation before deciding. I will say this: I am fully aware of how competitive it is to get into medical school. I would NOT recommend for anyone to not apply to DMU. As I stated in an earlier post, if you apply to medical school and DMU is the only school that you get into, then go to DMU and make the best of it. However, if you get accepted to more than one school, I would do some serious research.

Posted by Lars:So, then they may not apply here, or just think that it is an inferior
school. Is this how you want your future colleagues to view your and my education?
Of course not. This is why i am a little ticked off at all of your anti-dmu posts.

Reply: How do you know that our ?future colleagues? don?t already view your and my
education as ?inferior?. Surely you aren?t just going to take our school?s word for it. If someone (residency director, alumni, staff etc.) did come forward and make claims
that our education is inferior, do you think that they would be well received? Not many people are going to put their job on the line for something like that which they
don?t stand to benefit at all from. The residency director would just keep it to
himself, the alumni would just be glad to be through dealing with the university, and
the staff will either be happy they have a job or look for another source of employment. Either way, the chances of you finding out that our education is subpar
from your future colleagues is not very likely in my opinion. We have already heard
from one poster (Rusty, page 2) who stated that ?This (DMU) was the ONLY osteopathic medical school which was specifically mentioned by an allopathic residency
program as an "inferior" school during my residency interviews?. Sure, I CAN?T confirm
or deny what he is saying, but I tend to believe him. Don?t stay ?ticked off? at my posts for too long. They are not meant too anger you or anyone else, but I definitely understand why so many people are passionate on this issue. In defense, I have to say that by discussing pertinent problems about our university, we are far more likely to solve them than by ignoring that they exist.


Posted by Larson:As far as I am concerned, i think that at any med school you are
presented with the same material (more or less), and it is up to the student to learn
it.

Reply: Sure we are all presented with the same material to learn, but would you disagree that there are good and bad ways of presenting the material? If so, how will you go about choosing a book for a course (assuming that you have many options and not a required text)? The answer is simple. You go to the bookstore, pick each book up and look at them all to get an idea of how good a job each author did organizing the material. The information in most of the pathology, histology, anatomy and other subject texts is basically the same within each discipline. Therefore, you are most likely to choose the book that seems to have the best structure/organization (ruling out price factors) of the information. If it didn?t matter, then we would all just by a medical dictionary and save money for medical school. Our education is no different. I agree with you that it is solely
up to the student to learn the material, but I will say that the school/professors have a
profoundly significant role in guiding the student?s learning of the material. To argue
otherwise begs the following questions: Why do we even have a school? Why not just have a set of boards that anyone can take when they feel they are ready?


hankhill

 
Hank-
Don't buy a Yugo and then complain that it doesn't run like a Mercedes. Yes that Yugo will get you from point A to point B, (you will be a doctor), it is just not the best ride. (you are also more likely to have breakdowns along the way). If you claimed to do the research you speak of, you would have seen that DMU has nearly the lowest MCAT and GPA of any US medical school (DO or MD) for the entering class. How could you possibly believe that would not correlate with the quality of the school?

Lars-
I agree that the same material should be taught at all med schools. The difference is the MANNER in which it is taught can greatly enhance learning. It has been often said that the WAY something is taught is more important than what is taught.
 
Posted by sidebentleft:Hank-Don't buy a Yugo and then complain that it doesn't run
like a Mercedes. Yes that Yugo will get you from point A to point B, (you will be a
doctor), it is just not the best ride. (you are also more likely to have breakdowns
along the way). If you claimed to do the research you speak of, you would have seen
that DMU has nearly the lowest MCAT and GPA of any US medical school (DO or MD)for the entering class. How could you possibly believe that would not correlate with the quality of the school?

Reply: You?re right, that was very naive of me. I didn't expect harvard, but I was totally caught off guard by some of the things that I have seen here. What disturbs me though is DMU doesn?t have to be this way. It would not be that difficult to make some small changes that would not cost them that much money but would make the school much more academically rewarding. You?re right though. I probably should have known better.

hankhill
 
I love the people who bash the school about their problems but fail to do anything about it. Hank, this is no longer about whether your points are valid. They are about whether you will get off your lazy ass, grab that thing called a pen, and write to someone who can actually change things around there (maybe the anatomy prof was right!). Because I'll tell you this much, the dean doesn't read SDN posts. He listens to students.

I'm going to be very very blunt, and I hope I don't get criticism for it. Here's a lesson you seriously need to learn: IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, THEN YOU'RE PART OF THE F$CKING PROBLEM. I don't take your posts seriously unless you can tell me that you went and talked to someone to deal with FIXING the problem. Tell me, have you talked to anyone WORTHWHILE about correcting this horrible education you seem to be getting? Or are you just paying 24k to sit in sunny Des Moines and complain? Because if I'm paying 24 THOUSAND dollars, and I'm not getting the help I need, you can bet your crappy grammar that I'll be talking to someone who can fix the problem, rather than a complain to a bunch of premeds who won't join your cause. Keep me posted on your progress, big guy.

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KidT
[email protected]
 
Posted by littlekid:I love the people who bash the school about their problems but
fail to do anything about it. Hank, this is no longer about whether your points are
valid. They are about whether you will get off your lazy ass, grab that thing called a
pen, and write to someone who can actually change things around there (maybe the
anatomy prof was right!). Because I'll tell you this much, the dean doesn't read SDN
posts. He listens to students.

Reply:I?ve talked with the dean littlekid. I guess you assumed that I had not by the same way you assumed that we don?t have quizzes in OMM (we do).

Posted by littlekid:I'm going to be very very blunt, and I hope I don't get criticism for it. Here's a lesson you seriously need to learn: IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE
SOLUTION, THEN YOU'RE PART OF THE F$CKING PROBLEM. I don't take your posts seriously unless you can tell me that you went and talked to someone to deal with FIXING the problem. Tell me, have you talked to anyone WORTHWHILE about correcting this horrible education you seem to be getting?

Reply:"WORTHWHILE"?, Apparently not, but I?ve gone to the people that make the changes at our school. Deans, course coordinators, etc.

Posted by littlekid:Or are you just paying 24k to sit in sunny Des Moines and
complain?

Reply:The last I checked it was around 24k, but don?t hold me to that because we did
get a notice in our mailbox that tuition is going up by a thousand dollars.

Posted by littlekid:Because if I'm paying 24 THOUSAND dollars, and I'm not getting
the help I need, you can bet your crappy grammar that I'll be talking to someone
who can fix the problem, rather than a complain to a bunch of premeds who won't
join your cause.

Reply:There aren?t just ?premeds? on this website littlekid. There are medstudents,
dental students, preprofessional students, doctors of various varieties, podiatric
students, nurses, etc. When you get out on rotations and have disagreements with
the many different people that you have to work with as a team and use the kind of
language and attitude that you just demonstrated, don?t expect to be well received.

Posted by littlekid:Keep me posted on your progress, big guy.

Reply: Why? You already know everything. I am done talking with you little kid. You
will fit in real well here.


hankhill

[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 03-10-2001).]
 
Okay, hank....I know you claim to be through talking with me, but I'm going to make a point to you anyways.

First let me say that if you handled the problems of DMU in a way that's even REMOTELY similar to the way you handled me, then I'm sorry - I'm 100% fully convinced that you handled it wrong. Did you call the dean names like "littlekid" when he didn't do things your way? Oh, I'm sorry - you went to a public board, pulled out your soapbox, and complained. Who's acting like a little kid now? Really constructive. I am not rigid in my opinions. I even made it clear in this thread that I see your point. I stand by my previous statement, however, that you are not part of the solution, but part of the problem.

POSTED BY HANK HILL (cause this is how he likes to do things):
I?ve talked with the dean littlekid. I guess you assumed that I had not by the same way you assumed that we don?t have quizzes in OMM (we do).

MY REPLY:
You're right. I assumed. I assumed because you didn't say anything about that. All you did was gripe and moan, proving that, above all, you're more effective at complaining than you are at producing results. Which makes it clear why you complain all the time. And just for the record, I never assumed that there weren't quizzes in OMM, I assumed that there weren't quizzes on the floor.

POSTED BY HANK HILL:
I?ve gone to the people that make the changes at our school. Deans, course coordinators, etc.

MY REPLY:
And you never mentioned it once. You never mentioned if it led to any progress or not. Now, if it didn't make any progress, I am convinced that you would have made sure to mention that because you love talking about how bad the school is. That can mean only one of two things: 1 - you are lying, and you never talked to any of them. 2 - They're working on it, and it would kill you to admit that they try sometimes.

POSTED BY HANK HILL:
There aren?t just ?premeds? on this website littlekid. There are medstudents,
dental students, preprofessional students, doctors of various varieties, podiatric
students, nurses, etc. When you get out on rotations and have disagreements with
the many different people that you have to work with as a team and use the kind of
language and attitude that you just demonstrated, don?t expect to be well received.

MY REPLY:
I encourage results. Believe me, I think that would be MUCH more well received than to badmouth all your colleagues/mentors/university behind their backs. What you are doing is counterproductive and leads to bad blood. You can be assured that if there's a problem, I'll determine my role in it, and I'll clear it up ASAP, like I suggested to you. What I will NOT do, however, is go around complaining. You aren't even complaining anymore. You are BADMOUTHING. I'm incredulous that you think I'm unprofessional when you resort to name calling and childish banter. I do my job, and I work through the problem, not around it.

Let me retype a statement I made to you in another thread:
"And, hank, on a personal note - let me just tell you that your vendetta against DMU doesn't go unnoticed. If you continue to bad mouth DMU constantly in EVERY post you put up, people will stop taking you seriously, consider this a personal thing, and never get your point. You should seriously try to just make your point, and then end it. I was honestly considering what you had to say way back in October, but since you seem to constatnly gripe about the same old ballyhoo, your complaints are losing their validity."

Since you started calling me names, I'm sure I'm either making my point or ticking you off. If you want to keep up this song and dance, be my guest. I have a DSL connection and all the time in the world to reply to you. Like the problems you have at school, this could have been handled in a much easier way, but your frustrations and namecalling have turned it into what you consider your education: something ugly. Be thankful that you are in somewhere and that you are becoming a doctor. I know people who would cut off their arm to be in your shoes. I was one of them last year. Which might be why I'm so prone to target you when you complain like a child.

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KidT
[email protected]
 
I was wrong! I am very sorry. I am not through with you. I wanted to be through talking with you, but it looks as though it will be necessary to make a few more points. First, you are badmouthing me for calling you littlekid, after you clearly acted like one. Reread your post previous to mine and understand that you called me a "lazy ass". I didn't start the "name calling", and BTW why don't you share with the board what you edited off of the following post several days ago (specifically the choice adjective you used to describe me):
kidterrific
Senior Member
Posts: 77
From: Detroit, MI
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 03-04-2001 02:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most state supported schools want you to stay there and practice rural medicine with a golden retriever. If you want to work in the boonies, then go there and be happy.
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KidT
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by kidterrific (edited 03-04-2001).]

IP: Logged


I don't talk about specific interactions that I have had with the faculty and administration at my school because I'd rather not identify myself. Unforunately, some of the people that have the most power to change things at DMU are also the same people that I will REQUIRE a recommendation from. I hardly think that speaking my opinion on this board should be considered badmouthing my university "behind their backs". Access to this board is not restricted, and you have already heard from several of my classmates. Don't worry about "ticking me off". I lost respect for anything that you have to say early on the morning of 3/4/01. I could hardly care what you think, but if it is necessary I will correct any more of your false assumptions.

hankhill



[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 03-10-2001).]
 
Hank,

Where did you go to undergrad? I went to a Big Ten University and I just can't relate to what you are complaining about at DMU. Didn't you ever have bad classes or a bad professor? Why are the way classes are taught such a big deal to you?

Your obviously a smart person, why can't you find a way to make the best of the opportunity med school has given you?

DMU
DO 04'
 
Let me clear the air of any mystery anyone might have of me. I most certainly edited the post. In it, I said, go practice rural medicine and be "miserable."

I then called Hank a, and I quote, 'JAGGOFF.' And, yes, I did start the name calling first. Guilty as charged. I'd like to think that when I read the post from ADRIANSHOE (in page 2 of this thread), I realized that I was clearly wrong. I even responded "touche, I see both yours and Hank's point." Adrian handled the problem so nicely and maturely that I felt that I could do the same, so I went back and edited out the Jaggoff comment because I wanted you to see my point, and not be so mad at the insult that you wouldn't. Since you said that you lost all respect for anything I said that morning, I can see that I was right - you were enraged by the comment and will not see my point. I apologize for the comment. You're not a jaggoff, I'm a jaggoff for having made it. I'll probably end up @ DMU and we'll probably be friends without even knowing it. I hope you can at least respect me enough for my opinion.

But I still don't think that makes your comments correct. I still think you have a personal vendetta against the school. You most certainly are complaining about the school behind the backs of the administration. Why don't you sign your real name to some of these posts, instead of a pseudonym? And don't give me any of that "I require a letter of rec from them" BS, because I'm sure if you approached the administration in a clear, concise, and respectful manner, they will not overreact and attempt to ruin your career. No, instead, I'd like to think that a person is appointed to be the dean of a medical school because he can handle such situations. Not everyone reacts like you, my friend, and to assume so gets you nowhere.

So let me sum up this message for you:
1 - You are not a jaggoff.
2 - I started the name calling first.
3 - I handled myself incorrectly.
4 - I apologize for thinking I was better than you.
5 - You're still badmouthing the university you attend, and through the claim that you fear political sabotage, you still are doing nothing about fixing it but complaining behind their backs under a fake name.
6 - It's painfully obvious to me that you will never see my point, much less agree with it.
7 - Since I called you a jaggoff, I ruined the integrity of this argument, and it will continue to be personal from here on out. I refuse to be a part of that, so I'm bowing out gracefully.
8 - I'm not being sarcastic when I say that I REALLY am sorry for calling you names.

See you on some other threads...

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KidT
[email protected]
 
Thanks for the apology kidt. Why don't you and I just agree to disagree? Maybe we will meet next year and become friends as you stated. I have no objections to that. You are very passionate about some of the issues which I have presented, and I don't fault you for that regardless of the position that you subscribe to. Good luck with your medical education next year.


hankhill
 
Posted by reed:why can't you find a way to make the best of the opportunity med school
has given you?

Reply: I am making the best of the opportunity (I think so anyway). Contrary to popular belief on this board, I am doing alright at DMU. I?m not blowing away the class average by any means, but I am passing classes. I do enjoy what I am learning too, but I feel that it could be greatly enhanced. A perfect example of what really gets on my nerves here at DMU is at the top of your notepool page for pathology on 02/27/01 at 8:00am. Read the first line, and tell me how familiar you are with that. I?ll grant you that it is a very small problem, but why does it have to occur over and over and over? Its not new. We?ve been seeing that from week one back in August. How much of our material have we not been able to go over because of this repetetive problem which is not limited by course/department? There are so many small things like that here that could be fixed but never are for no apparent reason. We have definitely let them know. This particular problem appeared in the last edition of our school newspaper.

I think that I have pretty well posted all that I want to on this particular board, and I have a pathology exam to devote serious time to. Kidt posted, ?If you continue to bad mouth DMU constantly in EVERY post you put up, people will stop taking you seriously, consider this a personal thing, and never get your point.? While I wouldn?t call my attitude toward the school a ?vendetta? and I have posted on subjects with no relation to the school in the past, I can see some real significance to his statement. I will now try to take a less active role on this specific board and simply monitor new posts and clarify anyone?s interpretation of what I have already said.

hankhill



[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 03-11-2001).]
 
I want to thank Hank Hill for his comments. If anyone took the time to read his posts they would see that he does care about his education and his school. Hiding our heads in the sand about problems at DMU and the osteopathic education will not solve the problems.

As a student at DMU I would not imply that this is the worst school in the US, but I will not sugar coat or out right lie either. Don't kid yourself by thinking that complaining does not hurt you in the administrations eyes regardless if it is constructive or not. I am learning and feel the education content will provide me with the foundation to become a good physician. The disorganization does anger me and I have spoken out in the proper forums to bring it to the attention of the administration.

I hope Hank Hill keeps posting on this subject; it is refreshing to get honest responses and information even if it is not what I want to hear or even fully agree with.

Homer S
 
I must also say that while I may not agree with Hank on all points, he does have a right to say it. I have argued with him time and time again, and I have concluded a couple of things:

1 - He's not badmouthing the school for no reason. He has a good reason to do so (what that is, I don't know, but it must be valid since he vehemently sticks to his guns amid all the heat he gets).

2 - His negative postings open the discussin for positive postings as well. I've seen lots of DMU students come to life and argue his point, and that gives me a complete spectrum of opinion.

I'm really sorry I caused a ruckus. I hope this posting can go on (but I'll steer clear of my opinions on it until I'm a student there). If anything, Hank has earned my respect.

------------------
--
KidT
[email protected]
 
Dear Hank and Homer--

Hank,
If you are still so unhappy with your education at DMU and feel that an Allopathic residency is for you, why dont you cut your losses and apply to the University of Iowa. Their tuition is about half of DMU's. You will make up the the 24G for your first year here. By the way, I was accepted at U of I as well as here at DMU. I chose DMU and have had no surprises here. I got exactly what I expected, and am satisfied. I know I would feel better with MD behind your name.

Homer
Yes A.T. Still was an innovative and outspoken individual, but he DID things to achieve change. What have you done besides just complain?

Mike
 
I have been reading through these posts for several days now. I usually try to stay out of these things, as they usually turn out ugly, as this has. Although I am making an exception in this case to make a few points.

First off, I am a DMU student, and find offense to many comments made here, especially by HankHill. Suggestions have been made that complaining here is not the solution to any problem. His reply was to the effect that he was afraid of any consequences that may occur by pushing issues with the people that write his rec letters. I would like to respond to that.

I am a third year student at DMU, and spent a good amount of time my first two years trying to make changes here. I am well recognized on the 5th floor of the Academic Center, and have had frequent meetings with those in charge. Believe it or not, changes were made in response to the suggestions that I and others gave. And not only was I NOT reprimanded for suggesting things could be better, I was rewarded for my efforts by being named Student DO of the Year for DMU last year.

You can make a difference, but as with everything you do it is all in the presentation. Going in with a ten page list of demands, and no suggestions on how to reach them, will get you no where. You must prioritize your needs, and give means to meet your objectives. Telling people how much this place sucks, and giving no way to fix it, will get you no where, and leave you looking like a fool in the eyes of those who matter.

So you may be asking, what did I accomplish if you still think this place is so bad. Well, for starters, I picked the battles I thought I could win. The class before mine, only got 3 weeks off for vacation between 1st and 2nd year, so I suggested ways to reorganize class time to get my class 6 weeks. Suggestions made in my class rseulted in curriculum changes in almost every class the first year. Although I admit there are more that need to be done, little steps in the right direction are better than none at all. At some time in my first two years I sat on every curriculum committee on this campus (yes there are many) and gave input from the student aspect, and my opinions were well received. I had the Dean's office on my speed dial and email address book, and was in constant communication with him (not the same Dean we have now, however) and we did not have the problems of miscommuncation that seem to be occurring now (lecture changes without notification for example). This is not a conclusive list by any means, but just a few examples that came to me.

I am not writing this out of criticism, but as an example as to how one person can make a difference without closing any doors. Presentation is key. DMU does has its faults, but not caring is definitely not one of them. There are people here that honestly want to do all that they can to make this the best Ostepathic medical school possible. Search out these people and work with them. I guarentee your experience will be a positive one.

I have never been afraid to sign my name to anything in which I have given suggestions for improvements, and will not stop now. Any DMU student that would like to make a difference, feel free to contact me.

Kay Wendling
OMM Fellow
Former President of the Class of 2002
DMU Student DO of the Year 2000
 
I absolutely concur with Dr. Wendling, and here is my post from a different topic along the same lines...

Hank;
I've avoided replying to your posts in the past, but since your posts bashing DMU are all-over this site, I had to respond. What is your agenda? Are you trying to impart change at DMU? (your technique of bashing your school to a bunch of pre-med and medical students isn't going to change anything). Or are you taking a paternal role and trying to bestow some of your worldly knowledge (as a MS-1 or MS-2) upon the less informed younger generation of physicians...?

I'm an alumni of DMU (formally UOMHS). I can't imagine thing's have changed dramatically in 4 years. Hank, there were a few people in my class that had an attitude similar to yours. They made a lot of noise, but didn't do much to change things (maybe you're trying, but this isn't the way to go about it). I had another classmate who took a different approach. He started the 'phon-a-thon' campaign. There was little to no alumni financial support for DMU prior to this being established and now there's several million established for scholarship and fisical stability. He also established a curriculum review committee to address several of the issues you're griping about (it worked well for our class...). My point is, there are ways to address adversity and your technique won't work. In fact, your technique of bashing your school to impressionable pre-medical students couldn't possibly improve your lot and could, quite possibly, make things worse at DMU.

Take personal responsibility for your education. You'll find you're given all the tools you need at DMU to do well. Believe it or not, DMU takes a more hands-on approach to medical education than many other institutions, but you're still not going to be spoon fed. You'll learn that medical education is an on-going process and you must learn that it is your initiative that's gonna make you stay up-to-date with medical literature when your training in medical school and residency is long past... Have you taken Step I yet? If you've done well in your courses, you'll find Step I a breeze. Your preparation for the boards is excellent at DMU and you'll find the systems curriculum is great part of your board preparation (FYI: DMU was one of the first med schools in the country to adopt the systems curiculum and now several others have followed suit, including the U of I). More importantly, you'll find your knowledge base is as strong or stronger than other med students when you go out on rotations. And I'd say the ultimate test of your training at DMU will be residency. I can only speak from personal experience, but I was as well prepared as any resident in our program. Maybe that's why I'm now chief resident and I'll be going onto Cardiology Fellowship next year.

As an aside, there are several less-than-desirable difficulites facing the students and residents here and at every institution I've rotated through or known through friends in other programs. (i.e: adversity is everywhere...)

Hank, there aren't many certainties in life, but the inevitable adversity is one of them. I'll guarantee you'll see greater adversity than what you have now (and you haven't even been out on rotations yet, let alone internship/residency). Believe me, how you learn to deal with difficulties now will have an impact on your future success.


 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by quietparadise:
DMU does has its faults, but not caring is definitely not one of them.•
Click to expand...

This is not a universally held belief by all students at DMU. While I cannot speak for those on this forum, my friends who are 4th year students at DMU have told me of more than one experience which shows that the DMU administration is not always caring and understanding in their relations with students. As an outsider, it is easy for me to say that the repartee between DMU students on this forum is probably a clear indication that their are varying opinions on the quality and value of the medical education offered at DMU.

 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by lightning:
Dear Hank and Homer--

Hank,
If you are still so unhappy with your education at DMU and feel that an Allopathic residency is for you, why dont you cut your losses and apply to the University of Iowa. Their tuition is about half of DMU's. You will make up the the 24G for your first year here. By the way, I was accepted at U of I as well as here at DMU. I chose DMU and have had no surprises here. I got exactly what I expected, and am satisfied. I know I would feel better with MD behind your name.

Homer
Yes A.T. Still was an innovative and outspoken individual, but he DID things to achieve change. What have you done besides just complain?

Mike•
Click to expand...

I am happy you are satisfied with your choice.

Can't speak for HankHill but I don't feel what I was doing was complaining. My desire was to keep open various points of view, positive and negative.

I try to structure my comments in such a way as to give constructive critisizm and honest opinion as opposed to just complaining. Obviously there is a lot of disagreement on this point.

With that I will withdraw from this post and spend more time studying. Good luck to all in their medical school endeavors.

Homer

 
Psted by Mike(lightning):Homer, Yes A.T. Still was an innovative and outspoken individual, but he DID things to achieve change.

Reply: I posted that statement to you Mike, not Homer. I would like to know one thing before I reply to you. Are you an OMM fellow also? You obviously don't have to answer that (I am damn sure not going to give my name out on this forum), but I would like to know the answer if you are willing to share.

Thanks,
hankhill
 
Posted by Kay (quietparadise):First off, I am a DMU student, and find offense to
many comments made here, especially by HankHill. Suggestions have been made
that complaining here is not the solution to any problem. His reply was to the effect
that he was afraid of any consequences that may occur by pushing issues with the
people that write his rec letters. I would like to respond to that.

Reply:Hypothetically speaking, if Kay knew my name then she could adversely grade
my next OMM practical. I am not saying that she would (I have learned a lot from
her and think that this would be way, way, way, way, below her), but hypothetically
speaking she could and I don?t want to put either of us in that awkward position.
When we take our practicals, we go into a room with a fellow or one of our
instructors and they will grade us on our ability to diagnose and treat a specific
somatic dysfunction (its a good process). Then we proceed to the next
fellow/instructor and so on. Therefore, I will argue that this is just one example of
why that I should not give out my name. Again, I don?t think that you would do this
Kay, but you did post that you ?find offense to many comments made here,especially by HankHill?.

Posted by Kay (quietparadise):You can make a difference, but as with everything you
do it is all in the presentation. Going in with a ten page list of demands, and no
suggestions on how to reach them, will get you no where. You must prioritize your
needs, and give means to meet your objectives. Telling people how much this place sucks, and giving no way to fix it, will get you no where, and leave you looking like a fool in the eyes of those who matter.

Reply: The last time I checked this forum is entitled, ?Ranking D.O. Schools - Should
Your School Be #1.? I posted my ranking, and I gave my reasoning behind it. If you or
anyone else disagrees with me great. Why is it so difficult for you to specifically take my arguments and work to disprove them instead of attacking me for giving MY opinion that this board clearly asked for. The purpose here isn?t to rank hankhill on his ability to make DMU better, it is to give your opinion on DO school rankings. I gave my ranking and backed it up with information that could easily be debated but rarely is. Instead for whatever reason, people find it much easier to attack hankhill rather than his argument. If
anyone wants to change the topic to ?How to make changes at your school? or "Why ranking medical schools is dumb" or even ?Why
hankhill is the scum of the earth? then maybe you should start a new topic.

Posted by Kay (quietparadise):Suggestions made in my class rseulted in curriculum
changes in almost every class the first year. Although I admit there are more that
need to be done, little steps in the right direction are better than none at all. At some time in my first two years I sat on every curriculum committee on this campus (yes there are many) and gave input from the student aspect, and my opinions were well
received. I had the Dean's office on my speed dial and email address book, and was
in constant communication with him (not the same Dean we have now, however) and
we did not have the problems of miscommuncation that seem to be occurring now
(lecture changes without notification for example).

Reply:That is great. I have spoken with our first year curriculum committee representative more than once. You are an obvious asset to our school. I know this
not only by what you have accomplished, but also by my interactions with you.

Posted by Kay (quietparadise):There are people here that honestly want to do all
that they can to make this the best Ostepathic medical school possible. Search out these people and work with them. I guarentee your experience will be a positive one.

Reply: There ARE ?people here that honestly want to do all that they can to make
this the best Ostepathic medical school possible.? I will argue with anyone who says
otherwise and for perfect examples I give Dr. Mueller and Dr. Boesler. Still the issues
that I have posted are applicable (except the seating problems in OMM) Dr. Boesler came to class today and went out of his way to make sure that everyone had a seat for both the quiz and lecture
smile.gif
. Thank you Kay and Dr. Boesler. As I said before,
OMM at DMU is first class, and it is directly correlated with Dr. Boesler?s attitude and passion for both the subject and his students.

For those of you reading this topic: As you scroll down through the posts, ask yourself
this. Are people attacking hank, or are they attacking his opinions and views? Are they
asking why hank hasn?t fixed all of the problems, or are they stating specifically why the issues he posted are wrong?

hankhill




[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 03-12-2001).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by lightning:
Dear Hank and Homer--

H

Homer
Yes A.T. Still was an innovative and outspoken individual, but he DID things to achieve change. What have you done besides just complain?

Mike•
Click to expand...

Sorry, forgot to reply to what I do besides complain.

1. Go to class and study
2. Attend all deans calls
3. Attend test reviews
4. Fill out any and all curriculum reviews completely and honestly. In that forum I do give my name if applicable.
5. Talk to professors one on one if I have specific problems. With the exception of one or two, most exchanges have been at least partially constructive.

Later

ps. What do you do to improve the situation at DMU? Are you completely satisfied with your education? ( Serious inquiry, no sarcasm intended)
 
where does LECOM rank among the other D.O. schools? is it a top ten contender?
 
I think LECOM is too new to tell. I interviewed there, and I thought it was nice, but all I know is that the building is clean! In my opinion, LECOM is taking major steps in becoming more organized, but it is my opinion that we won't see the results for a few years.

------------------
--
KidT
[email protected]
 
I do NOT share the same negative views about Des Moines University as Hank Hill.

I'm in my second year of the D.O. program at DMU, and I feel that the teachers, faculty and staff at our school go out of their way to provide an excellent educational atmosphere for the students. I am extremely pleased with the quality of our educational system.

I hope that the pre-meds reading this discussion realize that there are many of us students who disagree with Hank Hill's assessment of DMU. As a second year student, I have been through the surgery "dog" lab, and I can assure you that Hank's comments are innaccurate.

Des Moines University was my first choice more than two years ago, when I was also accepted to another med school. I spoke with D.O.'s in my community back home and they told me about the great reputation of the Des Moines school. I am proud to be a medical student at DMU-OMC.

Scott
 
Scott:
Please clarify on a few points. What in particular was inaccurate about hankhill's description of the dog lab? I hope that his statement that students have an alternative if they do not wish to participate is accurate. Also, how is the student communication with the new Dean? I interviewed at DMU and he gave a brief presentation, but not enough to get a real feel for his vision for the school. What changes, if any, is he instituting? I got wait listed at DMU, so this may end up being completely moot for me personally, but it would be interesting to hear from you.
 
Posted by lightning (Mike):Hank, If you are still so unhappy with your education at DMU
and feel that an Allopathic residency is for you, why dont you cut your losses and apply to the University of Iowa. Their tuition is about half of DMU's. You will make up the the
24G for your first year here. By the way, I was accepted at U of I as well as here at DMU.

Reply: I have never posted anything on this board that should lead anyone to believe that
?an Allopathic residency? is for me. If lightning takes the time to read the posts on this board, he will recognize that it was another user who stated that he/she is leaning ?toward an allopathic residency?. While I can?t say that I completely disagree with the user that posted this, I think that it would be more appropriate if lightning tried harder in the future to make sure
he correctly matches his replies to the people who posted the statements that he is arguing against.

Posted by lightning (Mike): Just as an aside, all of this degradation of Osteopathic
programs weather from an internal or external point of view, just reminds me that our biggest obstacle as Osteopathic physicians is ourselves. United we stand, divided we fall.

Also Posted by lightning (Mike): I chose DMU and have had no surprises here. I got
exactly what I expected, and am satisfied. I know I would feel better with MD behind
your name.

Reply: For someone who subscribes so strongly to the philosophy ?United we stand,
divided we fall?, I must say that I was very surprised to see you post that you would feel
better with MD behind my name. Do you really think that? For one thing, I have already
shown you how that your post to me was based on someone else?s opinion, but that really
doesn?t matter to me. A couple of things bother me about this:

1)Are osteopathic physicians to only be united with those people who share all of
lightning?s (Mike's) beliefs? If so, could you share with me and the other people on this board what these ideals are so that we will all know if we will be able to be one of the united elite?

2)I asked you the following question on 03/12/01, ?I would like to know one thing before I reply to you. Are you an OMM fellow also? You obviously don't have to answer that (I am damn sure not going to give my name out on this forum), but I would like to know the answer if you are willing to share.?

It has been several days since this question was asked, and I have seen you post on other
topics while ignoring my question. Therefore, I will now assume that you don?t wish to respond to this question. If I
have assumed wrong, please correct me and answer the question. I do respect your right
to privacy and will not fault you either way. I would like to say one thing though. If you are a fellow, I find it highly unprofessional for you to tell one of your students that you, ?would feel better with MD behind? their name. Regardless of whether you are a fellow, is it not OK for a student to respectfully disagree with you without the need for them to switch from osteopathic to allopathic medicine? I posted my opinions and feelings on this board about my school. When people have asked about DMU, I have truthfully told them what I think whether positive or negative. I have tried several times to underscore my opinion as being that of only one student. I definitely believe that potential students should talk with as many people as possible before making their decision. I hope that you will sit down and take the time to reread this board and realize that while I may be sharply critical of the school, your statement about which letters you would like to see behind my name was totally uncalled for and insulting to me. If that is truly how you feel then I will respect your opinion, but I also will absolutely 100% disagree. We will most likely have to agree to disagree on this
particular issue.

Note to everyone else: I did take offense to lightning?s (Mike?s) statement, but I don?t
want anyone to think that I look down upon my allopathic counterpart either. I would be
equally as proud to wear and sign MD behind my name at the end of my undergraduate
medical education as I would DO. Letters don?t make the doctor in my opinion. I just don?t like the way that lightning (Mike) infers that I would be better off in allopathic medicine as though I am not good enough for osteopathic medicine since he and I disagree. I believe that we as osteopathic physicians and students should strive harder than anyone else to understand opposing views if we ever expect others to understand our unique ways of providing healthcare.

hankhill



[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 03-16-2001).]
 
MUON,

I'm not sure why, but it seems like hankhill is really trying give a bad impression of DMU general and the surgery labs in particular.

This year there was an option not to participate in the live tissue laboratory. I'll admit, I wasn't sure how I would feel about the lab, mostly because I had heard all kinds of crazy rumors. This is a sensitive issure for everyone, and I don't believe this is a proper environment to discuss those kind of details. I will tell you however, that this experience was one of the best learning opporunities I have had in medical school. If you have specific questions, I would recommend speaking directly with the surgery department.

I believe that student communication with our dean (Dr. Teitelbaum) has been excellent. He was highly respected at MSU, and I've read messages from students on this website telling us (at DMU) how lucky we are to have him here. I have spoken with him personally on multiple occasions and he has always been available and willing to spend time with me. He travelled with a group of about 20 of us students from DMU who attended the Osteopathic Surgery Convention this year in Boston. We are very fortunate to have Dr. Teitelbaum as our dean.

I am on spring break this week, and won't be on this website frequently. If you should have additional questions, please feel free to email me directly at: [email protected]

Scott

 
Posted by rtk:I absolutely concur with Dr. Wendling, and here is my post from a
different topic along the same lines...

Reply: What is Kay a doctor of? Does she have a podiatry degree, Ph.D., or some
other degree? Just curious. I have heard other people refer to her as Doctor also.

Posted by rtk:I've avoided replying to your posts in the past, but since your posts
bashing DMU are all-over this site, I had to respond. What is your agenda? Are you
trying to impart change at DMU? (your technique of bashing your school to a bunch
of pre-med and medical students isn't going to change anything). Or are you taking a
paternal role and trying to bestow some of your worldly knowledge (as a MS-1 or
MS-2) upon the less informed younger generation of physicians...?

Reply: My agenda? Do I have to have an agenda to post replies to questions asked
on these boards? I have an opinion based on my experiences here at DMU. This board asked for rankings of the osteopathic schools. I gave my opinion. Other boards have asked similar questions like dmuoruhs, good omt programs, etc. I posted my opinion on those boards also. If you don?t like the fact that I am posting my opinion (granted mostly negative) about DMU, that is too bad. Maybe you should try specifically proving to the ?less informed younger generation of physicians? (an insult in my opinion) how any of the problems that I posted are untrue. That would be much more effective than trying to keep me from posting my views. As far as the paternal role
thing, the answer is no. I am giving my opinion and people can make what they want
of it.

Posted by rtk:I'm an alumni of DMU (formally UOMHS). I can't imagine thing's have changed dramatically in 4 years.

Reply: I can?t either.

Posted by rtk:Hank, there were a few people in my class that had an attitude similar
to yours. They made a lot of noise, but didn't do much to change things (maybe
you're trying, but this isn't the way to go about it). I had another classmate who took
a different approach. He started the 'phon-a-thon' campaign. There was little to no
alumni financial support for DMU prior to this being established and now there's
several million established for scholarship and fisical stability. He also established a
curriculum review committee to address several of the issues you're griping about (it worked well for our class...). My point is, there are ways to address adversity and
your technique won't work. In fact, your technique of bashing your school to
impressionable pre-medical students couldn't possibly improve your lot and could,
quite possibly, make things worse at DMU.

Reply: How will it make things worse? Is it some how better to keep quiet about these problems that I have posted? Is that going to solve them? You seem to be trying to give me the same advice a battering husband gives his beat up wife when she is approached by the police. Don?t talk about what really happens, and it is your fault for not fixing the problems. If talking on this forum fixes anything great, and if it fixes nothing that is fine too. If I see any way that I can make improvements at DMU, I will. In the
meantime, I see no reason why that I should not share my opinion on this board if I
feel inclined to do so. If you don?t agree with what I am writing, then try to disprove
what I post.

Posted by rtk:Take personal responsibility for your education. You'll find you're given
all the tools you need at DMU to do well. Believe it or not, DMU takes a more
hands-on approach to medical education than many other institutions, but you're still
not going to be spoon fed.

Reply: Never, not a single time have I ever asked to be ?spoon fed?. However, I would like for our ethics class to meet in the building that it says it will on our schedule. I would like to be notified when classes are going to change. I would like professors to show up at the time that they are supposed to teach and be prepared to do so (teach) when the hour starts. If any of that is asking to be ?spoon fed?, then I am guilty. Otherwise, what are you talking about?

Posted by rtk:You'll learn that medical education is an on-going process and you
must learn that it is your initiative that's gonna make you stay up-to-date with
medical literature when your training in medical school and residency is long past...

Reply: OK

Posted by rtk:Have you taken Step I yet?

Reply:No

Posted by rtk:If you've done well in your courses, you'll find Step I a breeze. Your
preparation for the boards is excellent at DMU and you'll find the systems curriculum
is great part of your board preparation (FYI: DMU was one of the first med schools in
the country to adopt the systems curiculum and now several others have followed
suit, including the U of I). More importantly, you'll find your knowledge base is as strong or stronger than other med students when you go out on rotations. And I'd say the ultimate test of your training at DMU will be residency. I can only speak from personal experience, but I was as well prepared as any resident in our program.
Maybe that's why I'm now chief resident and I'll be going onto Cardiology Fellowship
next year.

Reply: Congratulations on earning the Cardiology fellowship and the chief resident
position. Can I ask where at? I hope that Step 1 will be ?a breeze?. Still, I am having
my doubts (maybe that is a natural thing that everyone experiences).

Posted by rtk:As an aside, there are several less-than-desirable difficulites facing the
students and residents here and at every institution I've rotated through or known
through friends in other programs. (i.e: adversity is everywhere...)

Reply: Yep!

Posted by rtk:Hank, there aren't many certainties in life, but the inevitable adversity is one of them. I'll guarantee you'll see greater adversity than what you have now (and you haven't even been out on rotations yet, let alone internship/residency). Believe me, how you learn to deal with difficulties now will have an impact on your future success.

Reply:Sure, but how do you know that I haven?t already faced extreme adversity in
my life to get to where I am now? I agree with most of what you just said, but I
would caution you to never assume that anyone on this website is not familiar with
adversity and how to deal with it. People can have life experiences before medical
school that will make rotations, internship, and residency look like a walk in the park.
I?m not saying that I am one of these people, but how would you know? I have seen
some amazing stories of survival, determination, and drive on these boards. Those are characteristics that most all of us on this website possess and share in my opinion.


hankhill
 
Posted by SRR:As a second year student, I have been through the surgery "dog" lab, and I can assure you that Hank's comments are innaccurate

Posted by muonwhiz:What in particular was inaccurate about hankhill's description of the dog lab?

Posted by SRR:I'm not sure why, but it seems like hankhill is really trying give a bad
impression of DMU general and the surgery labs in particular.

Reply (hankhill): I don?t feel that what I am doing gives a bad impression of the surgery labs. Rather, I think that they give themselves a bad impression, and I simply make that visible and clear.

Posted by SRR:This year there was an option not to participate in the live tissue
laboratory. I'll admit, I wasn't sure how I would feel about the lab, mostly because I had heard all kinds of crazy rumors. This is a sensitive issure for everyone, and I don't believe this is a proper environment to discuss those kind of details.

Reply: Why do you feel that this is not a proper environment to discuss the dog labs? I
will definitely respect the fact that you don?t want to talk about details here, but could you let us know why? If anyone is interested in talking about the dog labs, I recommend going to the following forum which is already in place:
http://www.studentdoctor.net/bbs/Forum3/HTML/001621.html

Have a good spring break SRR. That is one thing that I think we can both agree that
DMU does well
smile.gif



hankhill
 
Hankhill,
I graduated from DMU in 2000. I want to tell you that we have very similar feelings. If you think things are bad now wait until you are in your clinical years and you are following doctors around like a premed! Penny, our well respected clinical coordinator at one time told our entire class that if we couldn't find a rotation that we could go to the yellow pages and just start calling physicians. My fiancee is a medical student at UofI and their first two years are no different than ours except they have a more clinically oriented approach. What is striking though is their third and fourth years. It would not be proper even to compare her clinical education to mine.
My views are the same as many of my other posts. As a profession we are failing in our clinical education. Our schools are not properly regulated by the AOA and therefore they can get away with virtually no involvement in our third and fourth years.
One of the many letters that I have written was to the Executive director of the Board at DMU. In my letter I asked why we have no clinical faculty and her response was that basically DMU can't afford to spend that kind of money. WOW, a medical school without clinical faculty! What a disappointment.
If you are a student at DMU and reading this post, I would like to help you during your clinical years. I wouldn't want anyone to receive the poor education I did. If you don't mind moving around a few times you can get an excellent education. The basic principles are to get your hospital and core FP over. After schedule all your rotations at University teaching institutions. Please email me at [email protected]
If you are a prospective student and have other choices than you should consider them.
Wendling, if you plan on using your Osteopathic skills then don't come to Michigan. The only hospital that I know of that even has a real OMM dept is Mt. Clemens and the residents and interns don't even know that where its located. Why are people calling you Dr?
 
I will not comment on your viewpoints and your implied remarkable impact on medical school. However, I want to pull you coat on something. PLEASE do not make any disphaging remarks against anyone elses grammar. Your grammaritic talents is of middle school quality.

regards,
dk
Former English Lit Prof.




<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by kidterrific:
I love the people who bash the school about their problems but fail to do anything about it. Hank, this is no longer about whether your points are valid. They are about whether you will get off your lazy ass, grab that thing called a pen, and write to someone who can actually change things around there (maybe the anatomy prof was right!). Because I'll tell you this much, the dean doesn't read SDN posts. He listens to students.

I'm going to be very very blunt, and I hope I don't get criticism for it. Here's a lesson you seriously need to learn: IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, THEN YOU'RE PART OF THE F$CKING PROBLEM. I don't take your posts seriously unless you can tell me that you went and talked to someone to deal with FIXING the problem. Tell me, have you talked to anyone WORTHWHILE about correcting this horrible education you seem to be getting? Or are you just paying 24k to sit in sunny Des Moines and complain? Because if I'm paying 24 THOUSAND dollars, and I'm not getting the help I need, you can bet your crappy grammar that I'll be talking to someone who can fix the problem, rather than a complain to a bunch of premeds who won't join your cause. Keep me posted on your progress, big guy.

•
Click to expand...

 
Posted by deathkiss:I will not comment on your viewpoints and your implied remarkable
impact on medical school. However, I want to pull you coat on something. PLEASE do not make any disphaging remarks against anyone elses grammar. Your grammaritic talents is of middle school quality.

Reply: Yes, kidt did post some less than than kind things that caused a "ruckus" as he put it, but he has also apologized in two separate posts that I am aware of since then. It takes a lot of courage to admit that you are wrong about something (not his opinions but rather his attacks) especially on a board like this where it would be just as easy to ignore the posts or get a new username. If kidt had the courage to apologize, I think that we should all have the courage to let his past posts go untouched and uncriticized. Lets move
forward with the debate at hand and not backwards to personal attacks.


hankhill
 
Mr. Ray and others,
I'm sorry you didn't get the clinical education you felt you deserved. I think that says more about you than about the university though. If people choose to throw their clinical years away on second rate rotations then that's a personal problem and only speaks to their laziness. DMU-Osteopathic gives you the wonderful opportunity of spending 100% of your clinical years in top rated programs around the country. Here are some of the places that our second year students will be rotating at next year: Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, Brigham and Womens, UCLA, University of Washinton, University of Texas medical system, MT Clemmons, St. Vincents-Toledo, University of Miami, Baylor University, Meninger Clinic, Albert Einstein, Cooke County Chicago, and many many more top osteopathic and allopathic programs in this country and abroad! This is one of the main reasons I came here. Our students didn't just start rotating at these places a few years ago. We've been training in institutions like those above for years! That is why our students get to rotate there. Our great reputation proceeds us! Most schools don't give their students the option of visiting the program of their dreams until late in their fourth year. Our students have already secured their residency spots by then! If you need someone to hold your hand and think for you, I can give you a long list of schools to attend. If you like to be in charge of your future and want an education from a 103 year old university, rich in tradition and excellence then there's a school on 3000 Grand Avenue in Des Moines, Iowa that would love to have you apply.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by deathkiss:
I will not comment on your viewpoints and your implied remarkable impact on medical school. However, I want to pull you coat on something. PLEASE do not make any disphaging remarks against anyone elses grammar. Your grammaritic talents is of middle school quality.

regards,
dk
Former English Lit Prof.




•
Click to expand...


OK, why I am getting involved in this debate???

Deathkiss, where do you think you have room to comment on hankhill's grammar? I mean, look at the two mistakes above in your own post. (For everyone else, this is before Mr. former English Lit. Prof. edits the original post).

It's a good thing that you taught Literature as opposed to Composition.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by reddog:
Mr. Ray and others,
I'm sorry you didn't get the clinical education you felt you deserved. I think that says more about you than about the university though. If people choose to throw their clinical years away on second rate rotations then that's a personal problem and only speaks to their laziness. DMU-Osteopathic gives you the wonderful opportunity of spending 100% of your clinical years in top rated programs around the country. Here are some of the places that our second year students will be rotating at next year: Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, Brigham and Womens, UCLA, University of Washinton, University of Texas medical system, MT Clemmons, St. Vincents-Toledo, University of Miami, Baylor University, Meninger Clinic, Albert Einstein, Cooke County Chicago, and many many more top osteopathic and allopathic programs in this country and abroad! This is one of the main reasons I came here. Our students didn't just start rotating at these places a few years ago. We've been training in institutions like those above for years! That is why our students get to rotate there. Our great reputation proceeds us! Most schools don't give their students the option of visiting the program of their dreams until late in their fourth year. Our students have already secured their residency spots by then! If you need someone to hold your hand and think for you, I can give you a long list of schools to attend. If you like to be in charge of your future and want an education from a 103 year old university, rich in tradition and excellence then there's a school on 3000 Grand Avenue in Des Moines, Iowa that would love to have you apply.•
Click to expand...


with all this babbling obfuscating the issues, wasnt hank's issue with the DIDACTICS???????? blaming someones dissatisfaction with an educational institution on the person instead of looking objectively at the complaint is the real issue, these sycophantic thumbsucking yesmen brownnosers would rather DIE than admit that positive changes need to be made and that there is NOTHING wrong with advertising the need for this change...NO ONE OWES THE SCHOOLS anything (except a lot of money!)
so, let the crock of crap by the brownnosing love my school or you are loser crowd continue...these sycophnats are NEVER going to be responsible for any positive change so what do we care?
 
Posted by Reddog:If people choose to throw their clinical years away on second rate
rotations then that's a personal problem and only speaks to their laziness.

Reply: I was under the assumption that we don?t select our 3rd year rotations. If that is true then it might not be the student?s laziness that lands him/her into a ?second rate? rotation. I thought that we could set up our 4th year rotations where ever we want, but that the 3rd year rotations must be done at one of DMU?s list of approved sites. Doesn?t a computer make the 3rd year rotation selections for the entire class similar to the residency match but on a much smaller scale (for only our class and only our 3rd year rotations)? We do get to pick our 1st and 2nd preferences and the computer
tries to do its best in matching all students to where they want to be. Is it possible that any of these 3rd year clinical sites are ?second rate?? If so, then with your argument it would seem that it is the computer?s laziness and not the student when a ?second rate? rotation is chosen in the 3rd year if anyone/thing is guilty of being lazy in this scenario. I haven?t reached this stage yet. Please correct me if I have provided any inaccurate information. This is
definitely something that I would like to learn more about. What year student are
you?

Posted by Reddog
biggrin.gif
MU-Osteopathic gives you the wonderful opportunity of spending 100% of your clinical years in top rated programs around the country. Here are some of the places that our second year students will be rotating at next year: Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, Brigham and Womens, UCLA, University of Washinton, University of Texas medical system, MT Clemmons, St. Vincents-Toledo,
University of Miami, Baylor University, Meninger Clinic, Albert Einstein, Cooke
County Chicago, and many many more top osteopathic and allopathic programs in this country and abroad!

Reply: Really? I didn?t know that we could do 3rd year rotations at ?Johns Hopkins,
Mayo Clinic, Brigham and Womens, UCLA, University of Washinton, University of
Texas medical system, MT Clemmons, St. Vincents-Toledo, University of Miami,
Baylor University, Meninger Clinic, Albert Einstein, Cooke County Chicago?. I didn?t
see any of those hospitals in the red book. Are you sure about this? I know that we
can set up our 4th year rotations where ever we want, but are you sure that we can set up our 3rd year also? I really thought that the 3rd year was restricted to sites that DMU was affiliated with. Is there time during the 3rd year in between the required rotations to do selective rotations? You state that ?DMU-Osteopathic gives
you the wonderful opportunity of spending 100% of your clinical years in top rated
programs? and as examples provide a list of well respected hospitals. One hundred
percent would include all of the third year. That can?t be correct. If it is, what is the DMU rotation match for? Help me understand what you are talking about if you can do so
with out ?holding my hand?. Thanks in advance.

Posted by Reddog:This is one of the main reasons I came here. Our students didn't
just start rotating at these places a few years ago. We've been training in
institutions like those above for years! That is why our students get to rotate there.
Our great reputation proceeds us! Most schools don't give their students the option
of visiting the program of their dreams until late in their fourth year.

Reply: Maybe I am mistaken, but I don?t think that DMU gives their students the
option of visiting the ?program of their dreams? until the 4th year unless the
program is affiliated with DMU, and even then you have to be lucky enough to
match to it.

Posted by Reddog:If you need someone to hold your hand and think for you, I can give you a long list of schools to attend.

Reply:I?ll settle for a handshake on graduation day by a university representative. No hand holding until then for hankhill.

Kent, can you shed some light on the questions that I just asked? Was reddog correct in his post? Thanks in advance.


hankhill


[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 03-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 03-18-2001).]
 
Regarding rotations at DMU during your third and fourth years one would be best to speak with a clinical coordinator at the school. I will shed some light on the issue though. The school sets up a four month core hospital rotation and a two month family medicine rotation, the rest of the year is up to you. To be a core hospital, it must meet high standards. Every hospital is required to give 1 month of surgery and one month of internal medicine. The remaining two months vary from hospital to hospital. I know the one I'm going to gives, in addition to the surg. and IM, 2wks each of path, radiology, anesthesia, & ER. Within those remaing next six months after your core hospital and clinic, you are required to do 4wks OB/GYN, 4wks PEDS, 4 wks PSYC, and 4 wks of either: OB/GYN, Internal Med, Emergency Med, OMM, Peds, Psyc,Family Practice. This all totals 10 months. The remaining two months may be spent in any specialty from anesthesia to pediactric oncology. Your choice. The core hospital and family medicine rotation that the school sets up is really your choice also. These hospitals and clinics are all over the U.S. with the majority in the midwest. Yes, some of the training institutions are going to be stronger in certain fields than others. But, bear in mind that as a third year, you don't know jack anyway! You could put me in the worst hospital in the country and I'm gonna learn something because I know so little! Some people settle for less of an education because they have other issues and responsibilities that are more important than where they are going to do their training. That's fine. I don't considered that lazy, I consider that honorable. It's the people that sit back on their laurels their whole second year and then scramble to find any rotation they can before the deadline that I consider lazy. I started making contacts at the begining of the year and then began confirming and reserving my spots as soon as the school gave us the green light. Yes, you can go to any of those schools that I mentioned in my previous post and do your training, EVEN IN YOUR THIRD YEAR! AIN'T IT COOL! You just have to grab the bull by the horns and be a take charge person. I'm already setting up my fourth year contacts. The only requirement is that before graduation, 20 wks of your training must be considered "DO time. DO time is: rotating with a DO, or if the program director is a DO, or if the main supervising physician is a DO, or if it is a militay or US public health service site, or any site that the school grants "DO status to. So if you go to Johns Hopkins and the chief resident is a DO in whatever program, guess what, it's "DO time" at an MD institution. Gotta love it!
Hank, can I just encourage you for a moment. This is a very stressful time, maybe one of the most stressful times you've been through. I know it is for me. There is always going to be things that piss us off but when we're under stress it's always worse than what it really is. It is a lot easier at times to place our stress and frustration on other issues than just dealing with our issues that we might might have down deep. This school may not be ranked number one in every feild,but it isn't ranked last either. It's a good school that saw something in you and me that they liked and gave us a chance. I was a blue collar worker from the south that realized I had a passion for the sick. I had schools laugh at me in the interview because of who I was! I remeber praying before I walked into the interview at DMU, "God, Just let these people see my heart and they will like me." I sat down and Dr. Wakabongo look at my nervous self across the table and smiled and said( and this is the HONEST TRUTH) " Tell me what is in your heart." I knew at that moment this was where God wanted me! Man, I've been blessed in these two short years I've been here. These students, and you're one of them, are my family/ my home away from home. I've spent many a nights crying to and crying with others going through this hell called medical school because we needed and continue to need eachother. When others attack my school/my family it hurts, I'm offened, and others are as well. You may not know it but hundreds of premed students read these posts and decisions are made on where they want to go to med school based on what goes on in these pages. I BEG you and the others that have negative things to say about our school to please stop! Let's settle our "family problems" at "home" and not in the square. All of you have every right to continue this negative discoarse but please stop. It pains more people than you could possibly know. I personally know of people that were in tears this week about some of the false statements that have been made about DMU. That ought not be! Let's start the week off right and close this topic and start a new one. I can think about a lot of great things we could talk about. Kent if I offended you please accept my apology and know that it's sincere. Thanks for reading this and peace be with you all.
 
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