Ranking Neurology Programs

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Hi everyone,

I've seen on here people mention 'top tier' neurology programs, and was wondering, how do you find ranking for the programs? I've looked at the US News and World Report's ranks and was wondering if there was another source that ranks programs as well (something less influenced by how much research a program does)...if anybody has any information it would be greatly appreciated, as I'm pretty lost in how to apply to Neurology in general!

Thank you as always...

P.S. Anybody want to be my neurology mentor? 😀
 
bblue said:
Hi everyone,

I've seen on here people mention 'top tier' neurology programs, and was wondering, how do you find ranking for the programs? I've looked at the US News and World Report's ranks and was wondering if there was another source that ranks programs as well (something less influenced by how much research a program does)...if anybody has any information it would be greatly appreciated, as I'm pretty lost in how to apply to Neurology in general!

Thank you as always...

P.S. Anybody want to be my neurology mentor? 😀
Click to expand...

It sort of depends what your career objective are.

If you read some of the stickied threads on this site a pretty clear consensus will emerge regarding the best academic programs. Another trick is to go to the website for different programs and take a look at their current residents. Where did they go to med school, how many have advanced degrees, and if listed where did they do fellowhip after residency? The trick is to get your information from several sources, since any one source can be biased.

The US News rankings aren't too helpful because they combine neuro and neurosurg. They also tend to lag very far behind the times in terms of faculty movement and don't speak to issues such as fellowship outcomes and resident happiness. The rankings do sort of tip you off to what hospitals are generally well regarded, but beyond that they don't really tell you where you will get the best training.

I would also be careful about putting too much emphasis on what faculty at your home institution say about "good" programs unless you are at a top place for neuro. Certainly get their input, but they tend to overestimate the quality of programs in their geographic region.
 
Amos said:
It sort of depends what your career objective are.

If you read some of the stickied threads on this site a pretty clear consensus will emerge regarding the best academic programs. Another trick is to go to the website for different programs and take a look at their current residents. Where did they go to med school, how many have advanced degrees, and if listed where did they do fellowhip after residency? The trick is to get your information from several sources, since any one source can be biased.

The US News rankings aren't too helpful because they combine neuro and neurosurg. They also tend to lag very far behind the times in terms of faculty movement and don't speak to issues such as fellowship outcomes and resident happiness. The rankings do sort of tip you off to what hospitals are generally well regarded, but beyond that they don't really tell you where you will get the best training.

I would also be careful about putting too much emphasis on what faculty at your home institution say about "good" programs unless you are at a top place for neuro. Certainly get their input, but they tend to overestimate the quality of programs in their geographic region.
Click to expand...

Hey Amos,
Thanks for the advice..I was wondering about the US News report..it seemed a bit outdated. Thanks for the heads up on going to the website and seeing what medical schools the residents came from, that's a great idea!
If you get a chance and would like to, I'd love to hear what program you're at and if you have any specific advice on applying (feel free to email me if you don't want to post, obviously)..
Thanks again for the help, I really appreciate it!
 
US News is garbage. It uses metrics that are impertinent to residents or prospective residents. The US News ranking may exhibit some covariance with the real things that make a program good for residency, but the standard error is huge. And I agree that the inclusion of neurosurgery makes it even less helpful. Finally, what are you supposed to do about programs that go to multiple hospitals, each of which is ranked independently on US News? Ignore it, the only thing US News cares about is selling magazines, and that is all the list is good for.

Looking at the amount of research funding is important if you want to do research, and in general a lot of the brilliant minds in the field will congregate where the funding and facilities are, but there are great teachers, clinicians, and scientists all over the place. There are also many artifacts in the way research dollars are quoted, depending on the way the department is structured, what medical schools it is affiliated with, etc. One of the biggest and most heavily NIH supported programs in the country, which happens to be in Boston, looks like it has a low NIH funding in some lists because of the way the money is funneled through the affiliated medical school.

Most department heads have a pretty good idea where the best places are, but I agree that there can be some subspecialty and regional bias. So ask around, maybe even travel, and keep your eyes open, and you'll figure out what is best for you. Remember, not everyone wants or needs to go to a "top tier" program to get what they want out of their career, so be honest with yourself about what you are looking for.
 
It is not a ranking of academic performance & has nothing to do with residency training/fellowships. There is no ranking based on research output/funding etc. which is the true reflection of academic activity. Here is how the hospitals were ranked in 2009:

Reputation counted as 32.5 percent of the score. Each year we draw a random sample of 200 physicians from a national database for each of 12 specialties. They are asked to list five hospitals they consider among the best in their specialty for difficult cases, without taking into account cost or location. The figure shown for "reputation" in the rankings is the total percentage of the specialists in 2007, 2008, and 2009 who named the hospital in their response.

A mortality index made up 32.5 percent of the score. It indicates a hospital's ability to keep patients alive. Taking into account Medicare inpatients with certain conditions, it represents a comparison of the number of deaths within 30 days of admission in 2005, 2006, and 2007 with the number of deaths that would have been expected given the severity of each patient's illness. An index number above 1.00 means the hospital did worse than expected; below 1.00, better than expected. A program used by many hospitals and researchers called the 3M Health Information Systems APR-DRG made adjustments to the index according to the severity of each patient's condition.

A new patient safety index comprised 5 percent of the score. It shows how well a hospital minimizes harm to patients. Two of the seven index items, for example, are deaths of patients whose conditions should not have put them at significant risk, and incisions that reopen after surgery.

Other care-related factors, 30 percent of the score. Includes nurse staffing, technology, and other care-related information. The primary source was the American Hospital Association's 2007 survey of member and nonmember hospitals.

These are all very good if you are training in hospital management or trying to be a nurse. How would these rankings tell you anything about academics?

It is better to go to the NIH & NINDS websites & find out which program is getting how much funding. I also prefer using a neutral source like:

http://www.arwu.org/ARWU-FIELD2008/MED2008.htm
 
bonran said:
It is not a ranking of academic performance & has nothing to do with residency training/fellowships. There is no ranking based on research output/funding etc. which is the true reflection of academic activity. Here is how the hospitals were ranked in 2009:

Reputation counted as 32.5 percent of the score. Each year we draw a random sample of 200 physicians from a national database for each of 12 specialties. They are asked to list five hospitals they consider among the best in their specialty for difficult cases, without taking into account cost or location. The figure shown for "reputation" in the rankings is the total percentage of the specialists in 2007, 2008, and 2009 who named the hospital in their response.

A mortality index made up 32.5 percent of the score. It indicates a hospital's ability to keep patients alive. Taking into account Medicare inpatients with certain conditions, it represents a comparison of the number of deaths within 30 days of admission in 2005, 2006, and 2007 with the number of deaths that would have been expected given the severity of each patient's illness. An index number above 1.00 means the hospital did worse than expected; below 1.00, better than expected. A program used by many hospitals and researchers called the 3M Health Information Systems APR-DRG made adjustments to the index according to the severity of each patient's condition.

A new patient safety index comprised 5 percent of the score. It shows how well a hospital minimizes harm to patients. Two of the seven index items, for example, are deaths of patients whose conditions should not have put them at significant risk, and incisions that reopen after surgery.

Other care-related factors, 30 percent of the score. Includes nurse staffing, technology, and other care-related information. The primary source was the American Hospital Association's 2007 survey of member and nonmember hospitals.

These are all very good if you are training in hospital management or trying to be a nurse. How would these rankings tell you anything about academics?

It is better to go to the NIH & NINDS websites & find out which program is getting how much funding. I also prefer using a neutral source like:

http://www.arwu.org/ARWU-FIELD2008/MED2008.htm
Click to expand...

Thank you guys for the heads up! So the general consensus is that US News and World Report is the best publication out there for judging neuro programs, right? Haha jk. I'll throw away that trash asap...
I have the dumbest question I've ever asked on here for you guys (and I've asked some dumb ones)...:
Do you guys know when we can start applying to Neurology residencies and what the deadline is? I can't find an accurate source, and I've gone on ERAS, NRMP, and the American Academy of Neurology websites. Noone says "You can start applying on 'this date'" and "Your applications are due no later than 'this date'"!?
 
You can start applying on this date: Sep 1.

Just to make sure you understand, the ERAS is a universal online application service that is used to apply to almost all residency programs, neurology included. You can work on the application starting in June, but you can't begin transmitting the application to your desired programs until Sep 1. Most programs start sending out invitations to interview in mid-late September or October. Generally speaking, the sooner you apply, the more likely you are to get an interview - weaker candidates and foreign medical grads are encouraged to apply as soon after the application "goes live" as possible.

Don't worry about when the application closes (this "deadline" you speak of), because you shouldn't be applying after late October if you would like to actually get interviews and match.
 
Rogue Synapse said:
You can start applying on this date: Sep 1.

Just to make sure you understand, the ERAS is a universal online application service that is used to apply to almost all residency programs, neurology included. You can work on the application starting in June, but you can't begin transmitting the application to your desired programs until Sep 1. Most programs start sending out invitations to interview in mid-late September or October. Generally speaking, the sooner you apply, the more likely you are to get an interview - weaker candidates and foreign medical grads are encouraged to apply as soon after the application "goes live" as possible.

Don't worry about when the application closes (this "deadline" you speak of), because you shouldn't be applying after late October if you would like to actually get interviews and match.
Click to expand...

Thanks Rogue!! I'd heard that the application for Neurology began 'earlier' than other residency applications, so it's good to know that that's not the case. So it sounds like I should get my application in ASAP? Will do!
 
bblue said:
Thanks Rogue!! I'd heard that the application for Neurology began 'earlier' than other residency applications, so it's good to know that that's not the case. So it sounds like I should get my application in ASAP? Will do!
Click to expand...


Nah, back in the "old days" when I was applying, neurology was part of the San Francisco match, which was earlier than the ERAS match. It made things...unpleasant. But no longer.
 
typhoonegator said:
Nah, back in the "old days" when I was applying, neurology was part of the San Francisco match, which was earlier than the ERAS match. It made things...unpleasant. But no longer.
Click to expand...

God bless you people and your wisdom..thank you!
 
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Any suggestions on changing up your personal statement for preliminary/transitional spots? I really do not want to but I am guessing I should...any suggestions?
-Also, any thoughts on leaving an audition rotation to interview at another program? I am going to be at GWU but the interview dates I got for another program are mostly during my rotation. I already will be missing 2 days b/c I have to travel to Philly to take my CE step2...Idk what to do🙁
 
I recommend changing your prelim personal statement. It looks tacky if you don't put the effort in to make it pertinent for the people who are reviewing your application in the medicine department.

Don't lie and say you really want to be a rheumatologist or something, just change a few sentences to talk about how medicine is the foundation of neurology and you feel that this stage of your eduction is critical to becoming a well-rounded neurologist, blah blah blah.

Regarding interviewing during a try-out rotation, you gotta do what you gotta do. If that interview is important to you, then you'll have to miss a day of your rotation. Limit the amount of times this happens, if possible, as well as the amount of time you have to miss for the interview.
 
Believe2008 said:
Any suggestions on changing up your personal statement for preliminary/transitional spots? I really do not want to but I am guessing I should...any suggestions?
Click to expand...
I've scoured the message board for information on this. The consensus seems to be that there is no consensus. Lots of people have changed it and been fine. Lots of people have submitted the same exact PS and been fine.

Residents, fellows, and attendings from ophthalmology, neurology, dermatology, and anesthesia have all had differing opinions as well. Do whatever you feel is necessary. I've already submitted my letter without any changes, so to change it now would seem forced, in my opinion.
 
Believe2008 said:
Any suggestions on changing up your personal statement for preliminary/transitional spots? I really do not want to but I am guessing I should...any suggestions?
-Also, any thoughts on leaving an audition rotation to interview at another program? I am going to be at GWU but the interview dates I got for another program are mostly during my rotation. I already will be missing 2 days b/c I have to travel to Philly to take my CE step2...Idk what to do🙁
Click to expand...

When I applied last year, I changed mine slightly a la what typhoonegator and sent it to all prelim programs. I believe this was correct. However, it didn't go far enough and I had some problems at some of the less academically-oriented prelim programs that I applied to. So part of the answer is to take an objective look at your application and think about how it would appear to a faculty member in general internal medicine at X type of hospital. I.e. if you are applying to academic teaching hospitals for prelim, then an academic sounding cv and personal statement is fine. However, if you are also applying to community or less academic programs, then you may want to change it further and say how their programs really interests you and would launch you toward your goals.

Basically, keep the audience in mind and gear the statement toward that audience.
 
Vader said:
When I applied last year, I changed mine slightly a la what typhoonegator and sent it to all prelim programs. I believe this was correct. However, it didn't go far enough and I had some problems at some of the less academically-oriented prelim programs that I applied to. So part of the answer is to take an objective look at your application and think about how it would appear to a faculty member in general internal medicine at X type of hospital. I.e. if you are applying to academic teaching hospitals for prelim, then an academic sounding cv and personal statement is fine. However, if you are also applying to community or less academic programs, then you may want to change it further and say how their programs really interests you and would launch you toward your goals.

Basically, keep the audience in mind and gear the statement toward that audience.
Click to expand...

This is good advice. I didn't change my PS at all because I knew I had a good chance at my home institution for a prelim spot. However in retrospect I realize this was a risky move.

If your neuro PS is all rah rah research and academics I would put a "clinical" spin on your prelim PS.
 
bblue said:
Hi everyone,

I've seen on here people mention 'top tier' neurology programs, and was wondering, how do you find ranking for the programs? I've looked at the US News and World Report's ranks and was wondering if there was another source that ranks programs as well (something less influenced by how much research a program does)...if anybody has any information it would be greatly appreciated, as I'm pretty lost in how to apply to Neurology in general!

Thank you as always...

P.S. Anybody want to be my neurology mentor? 😀
Click to expand...

The SDN rankings are far better IMO. 😀
 
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