Ranking the Philly med schools?

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MongutheDoggy

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How would u rank the 5 Philly schools (Drexel, Temple, Jeff, Penn, PCOM) relative to each other?

Just curious thx.
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MongutheDoggy said:
How would u rank the 5 Philly schools (Drexel, Temple, Jeff, Penn, PCOM) relative to each other?

Just curious thx.
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As the adcoms like to say, until you have more than one choice, it's pretty irrelevant. 🙂

That said, this isn't that hard, because nothing is close to Penn at the top or PCOM, as the only DO, at the bottom (not that there is anything wrong with it, but I honestly don't know anyone who would choose DO over MD, given a choice).

Next up from the bottom is probably Drexel due to its issues with its hospital closing. So, then you have Jeff and Temple in the middle, both very decent, low yield schools in a popular city. I don't think there is a huge difference between them, although Jeff is certainly in a nicer part of the city, so I'd rather go there for that reason alone.

JMHO as a future applicant next cycle. Again, doesn't matter unless and until you have a choice. Only 20% of applicants every year find themselves in that position.
 
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Agreed with Goro.

But also PCOM is one of the best DO schools no? So it really is Penn dominance in Philly and the lines blur after.

NYC is a much more interesting question.
 
U Penn >>> Jefferson > Temple > Drexel > PCOM

Jefferson over Temple primarily due to location.
 
Banco said:
Agreed with Goro.

But also PCOM is one of the best DO schools no? So it really is Penn dominance in Philly and the lines blur after.

NYC is a much more interesting question.
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For NYC MD, including Long Island and Westchester County, I'd go:

Columbia > NYU > Mt. Sinai > Einstein > NYU-LI > Stony Brook > Hofstra > SUNY DS > NYMC > CUNY
 
Putkernerinthehall said:
For NYC MD, including Long Island and Westchester County, I'd go:

Columbia > NYU > Mt. Sinai > Einstein > NYU-LI > Stony Brook > Hofstra > SUNY DS > NYMC > CUNY
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You forgot Cornell. And Touro-NY and NYITCOM.

But also PCOM is one of the best DO schools no? So it really is Penn dominance in Philly and the lines blur after.

Very true.

I think someone once had a similar post about the Chicago med schools
 
Putkernerinthehall said:
For NYC MD, including Long Island and Westchester County, I'd go:

Columbia > NYU > Mt. Sinai > Einstein > NYU-LI > Stony Brook > Hofstra > SUNY DS > NYMC > CUNY
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Not bad.

I’d go NYU > Columbia > Cornell > Sinai > Einstein > SB > Hofstra > Downstate > NYULI > NYMC.

Regardless of the rankings rise, I think NYU has done enough to cement itself as top dog. Tuition free + Bellevue + awesome curriculum/match lists + best location in the city, and all of my friends there absolutely love it.
 
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Putkernerinthehall said:
Right, and same with NYU-LI which might bump it up. Fun game.
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Ehh. While free tuition is always great, the "innovative" 3 year curriculum and primary care focus might be too limiting for some. While it has NYU branding, it is worth noting that it IS a totally new, totally separate school.
 
Banco said:
Not bad.

I’d go NYU > Columbia > Cornell > Sinai > Einstein > SB > Hofstra > Downstate > NYULI > NYMC.

Regardless of the rankings rise, I think NYU has done enough to cement itself as top dog. Tuition free + Bellevue + awesome curriculum/match lists + best location in the city, and all of my friends there absolutely love it.
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Without free tuition Is NYU better than Columbia?
 
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EdgeTrimmer said:
Without free tuition Is NYU better than Columbia?
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According to who? You? Me? USNWR??? PDs in a survey?

All T10 schools are pretty interchangeable when it comes to professional opportunities, and it comes down to vibe, location, etc. You think Columbia, or any T10, even HMS or UCSF for that matter, is so much better than NYU, based on reputation? Just give it a few years, as more and more people choose no pay at NYU over full pay at other T10 schools, and then see who has a better reputation.

Why would anyone separate net cost from the equation? If it wasn't important, why would any school offer merit scholarships to anyone? If it is important, why wouldn't it be factored into what is a "better" school?
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Without free tuition Is NYU better than Columbia?
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We are splitting hairs with the Manhattan schools. I think an argument can be made for NYU or Columbia, but yeah, I’ll make it for NYU.

The Bellevue/Langone/VA trifecta, killer recent match lists, ideal location, heavily subsidized guaranteed housing and flexible curriculum are fantastic. They have a brand new hospital building that finished a couple years ago and new research building and have recruited faculty from all over. The tuition free more or less makes it an ideal school (that I wish I had gotten off the waitlist for).

Edit:

To provide some data, here is the 2019 match list. MD & DO - 2019 Match Lists Out of 130 students they had:

-11 Ophthalmology
-8 Orthopedic Surgery
-7 Derm
-7 Plastics integrated (!! - including at NYU, BWH, Pitt - insanely impressive)
-4 ENT
-3 Nsgy
-2 Uro
 
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Goro said:
You forgot Cornell. And Touro-NY and NYITCOM.

But also PCOM is one of the best DO schools no? So it really is Penn dominance in Philly and the lines blur after.

Very true.

I think someone once had a similar post about the Chicago med schools
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I chose criteria as "NYC, Westchester County, and Long Island MD Only" so excluded Cornell, Albany, SUNY Buffalo, SUNY Upstate, and all DO's. Cornell is like 4 hour drive from Manhattan.
 
Putkernerinthehall said:
I chose criteria as "NYC, Westchester County, and Long Island MD Only" so excluded Cornell, Albany, SUNY Buffalo, SUNY Upstate, and all DO's. Cornell is like 4 hour drive from Manhattan.
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Weill Cornell Medical school is in Manhattan though, completely separate from the undergrad. Did I just blow your mind and rock your world view?
 
Banco said:
Out of 130 students they had:
-11 Ophthalmology
-8 Orthopedic Surgery
-7 Derm
-7 Plastics integrated (!! - including at NYU, BWH, Pitt - insanely impressive)
-4 ENT
-3 Nsgy
-2 Uro
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On an unrelated note, so much for free tuition encouraging more people to go into primary care.
 
Putkernerinthehall said:
I chose criteria as "NYC, Westchester County, and Long Island MD Only" so excluded Cornell, Albany, SUNY Buffalo, SUNY Upstate, and all DO's. Cornell is like 4 hour drive from Manhattan.
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you're not aware that Cornell Medical School is in Manhattan? I used to work across the street from it.

You're thinking of the undergraduate campus, which is correctly as you surmise, in Ithaca up in Upstate New York
 
How do the Chicago schools compare to each other?
 
Banco said:
Weill Cornell Medical school is in Manhattan though, completely separate from the undergrad. Did I just blow your mind and rock your world view?
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Yes! You totally did. I didn't apply there and so just assumed it was in Ithaca! Well, that changes everything 😉
 
Goro said:
you're not aware that Cornell Medical School is in Manhattan? I used to work across the street from it.

You're thinking of the undergraduate campus, which is correctly as you surmise, in Ithaca up in Upstate New York
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OMG, I had no idea. I'm such a dufus!
 
MongutheDoggy said:
How would u rank the 5 Philly schools (Drexel, Temple, Jeff, Penn, PCOM) relative to each other?

Just curious thx.
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I'd say Penn >>> Jefferson/Temple > Drexel > PCOM. Don't really think there's a meaningful difference between Jefferson and Temple, but imo the loss of Hahnemann undoubtedly impacted Drexel in a negative way. Seems like it is bouncing back pretty quickly, though.
 
Banco said:
Not bad.

I’d go NYU > Columbia > Cornell > Sinai > Einstein > SB > Hofstra > Downstate > NYULI > NYMC.

Regardless of the rankings rise, I think NYU has done enough to cement itself as top dog. Tuition free + Bellevue + awesome curriculum/match lists + best location in the city, and all of my friends there absolutely love it.
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The only change I'd make is Columbia/Cornell > NYU. I don't think NYU has done anything to cement itself as a top dog. Until recent years, it was never even in the conversation. Would also like to point out that while NYU is tuition-free, Columbia and Cornell do DEBT-FREE for anybody with demonstrated financial need (determined slightly differently at the different schools). In my opinion, this is arguably better considering NYC is so expensive as a city. Columbia/Cornell's approach is also more equitable, imo.

Also, I honestly believe any differences between Columbia and Cornell are entirely due to personal preference. Columbia might have a slight edge wrt research, but Tri-I opportunities more than makeup for that. Both have access to a hospital system that is generally viewed as better than NYU's.
 
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I'mInDer! said:
The only change I'd make is Columbia/Cornell > NYU. I don't think NYU has done anything to cement itself as a top dog. Until recent years, it was never even in the conversation. Would also like to point out that while NYU is tuition-free, Columbia and Cornell do DEBT-FREE for anybody with demonstrated financial need (determined slightly differently at the different schools). In my opinion, this is arguably better considering NYC is so expensive as a city. Columbia/Cornell's approach is also more equitable, imo.

Also, I honestly believe any differences between Columbia and Cornell are entirely due to personal preference. Columbia might have a slight edge wrt research, but Tri-I opportunities more than makeup for that. Both have access to a hospital system that is generally viewed as better than NYU's.
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While you could make the case for either 3, you haven't really given many tangible reasons why Columbia/Cornell are "better" for medical students though. NYP being "viewed as better" isn't a real reason. Tri-I for MD/PhD certainly is.


With regards to not being "in the conversation" - that's no surprise, the conversation on pre-allo always revolves around USN rankings. But I never mentioned those as a reason.
 
Banco said:
While you could make the case for either 3, you haven't really given many tangible reasons why Columbia/Cornell are "better" for medical students though. NYP being "viewed as better" isn't a real reason. Tri-I for MD/PhD certainly is.


With regards to not being "in the conversation" - that's no surprise, the conversation on pre-allo always revolves around USN rankings. But I never mentioned those as a reason.
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Debt-free is huge (cancels out impact of NYU being tuition-free imo), match lists are as good as (or maybe even a bit better than) NYU's, better overall research and research resources (more funding, they publish better, more highly cited, etc.) Also worth noting that although the Tri-I program is for MSTPs, non MSTP medical students can conduct research at those other institutions. So that point still stands.

Location preferences are just that...preferences. I'd personally prefer Columbia's location over the other two. Same with curriculum. And as I said earlier, the the hospital system Columbia/Cornell use is generally more well regarded than NYU's, although obv NYU's is certainly still great. They're also more racially/ethnically diverse than NYU.

Also, until very recently, program directors ranked Columbia and Cornell much higher than NYU. Columbia is still ranked higher than them both, and NYU and Cornell seem to switch back and forth. I still take that with a grain of salt, but it is worth mentioning since they are pivotal in deciding who gets into residency programs.

These reasons are why I rank them above NYU, and also why even if they weren't ranked above it, there's no way NYU has done anything to cement itself on top imo.
 
I'mInDer! said:
Debt-free is huge (cancels out impact of NYU being tuition-free imo), match lists are as good as (or maybe even a bit better than) NYU's, better overall research and research resources (more funding, they publish better, more highly cited, etc.) Also worth noting that although the Tri-I program is for MSTPs, non MSTP medical students can conduct research at those other institutions. So that point still stands.
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Fair enough, but NYU also offers full COA scholarships/need based aid. With regards to research, NYU also has insane funding and opportunities. "Publish better" is something you'll need to back up - I can't imagine you know the inner workings of all 3 institutions research productivity to make this claim.

I'll say NYU and Columbia's match lists are pretty similar. Cornell is not as impressive imo. But again, reading match lists is not the full story - just gives a general picture. They're all objectively great. If you look at the one I posted above, that amount of subspecialty matches is incredibly good from NYU. How did you come to the conclusion that Cornell/Columbia are better? I'm curious to hear this from your vantage point.

Location preferences are just that...preferences. I'd personally prefer Columbia's location over the other two. Same with curriculum. And as I said earlier, the the hospital system Columbia/Cornell use is generally more well regarded than NYU's, although obv NYU's is certainly still great. They're also more racially/ethnically diverse than NYU.
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Eh I'm from NYC, 95% of people would pick the area of NYU over Washington heights. Also if you're referring to hospital diversity, nothing beats Bellevue in NY.

With regards to NYP being more well regarded, you can make the argument - that being said, you need to assess this based on specialty and residency programs - it's much more nuanced than layman's prestige and USN rankings of hospitals. You'll get there in a few years when you apply for residency and see what I mean.

Also, until very recently, program directors ranked Columbia and Cornell much higher than NYU. Columbia is still ranked higher than them both, and NYU and Cornell seem to switch back and forth. I still take that with a grain of salt, but it is worth mentioning since they are pivotal in deciding who gets into residency programs.
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This are all very close values but is a moot point when NYU's rank lists as of late are frankly very good (As posted above).

These reasons are why I rank them above NYU, and also why even if they weren't ranked above it, there's no way NYU has done anything to cement itself on top imo.
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Like I said, agree to disagree, you can make the argument for all 3 of them. I just disagree with your assessment, but don't think it's outlandish or anything.
 
Banco said:
Fair enough, but NYU also offers full COA scholarships/need based aid. With regards to research, NYU also has insane funding and opportunities. "Publish better" is something you'll need to back up - I can't imagine you know the inner workings of all 3 institutions research productivity to make this claim.

I'll say NYU and Columbia's match lists are pretty similar. Cornell is not as impressive imo. But again, reading match lists is not the full story - just gives a general picture. They're all objectively great. If you look at the one I posted above, that amount of subspecialty matches is incredibly good from NYU. How did you come to the conclusion that Cornell/Columbia are better? I'm curious to hear this from your vantage point.



Eh I'm from NYC, 95% of people would pick the area of NYU over Washington heights. Also if you're referring to hospital diversity, nothing beats Bellevue in NY.

With regards to NYP being more well regarded, you can make the argument - that being said, you need to assess this based on specialty and residency programs - it's much more nuanced than layman's prestige and USN rankings of hospitals. You'll get there in a few years when you apply for residency and see what I mean.



This are all very close values but is a moot point when NYU's rank lists as of late are frankly very good (As posted above).




Like I said, agree to disagree, you can make the argument for all 3 of them. I just disagree with your assessment, but don't think it's outlandish or anything.
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NYU offers full COA to some students, not all with demonstrated financial need. Can't be compared, imo. Wrt publishing, US News actually does a global research ranking for each subject that has far better methodology than the US News med school rankings. If you compare the publication volume, citations, collaborations, etc., you'll see that Columbia and Cornell surpass NYU in clinical medicine, biomedical sciences, and related subjects.

You are correct that I don't know a ton about the inner workings of those three schools (would argue that nobody knows much about the inner workings of any school they haven't spent years at, so I don't think this point is relevant for our conversations unless you've worked at/been a student at all three schools...in which case, never mind lol), but I am completing a PhD in the area of biomedical sciences and I do know that Columbia/Cornell are regarded a bit more highly wrt biomedical research than NYU. This plus the actual data showing that they publish more in these areas than NYU makes me a bit more confident in believing this. To be very clear, NYU has excellent funding and great resources for students, I never denied this. But it is also true that both Columbia and Cornell have more funding (especially Columbia) and Cornell allows their students to conduct research at multiple allied institutions.

Wrt hospitals, that's fair. Would you say that NYUs hospital system is more well-regarded then? I'm just going off of reputation (not layman's prestige, but from physicians I know and work with...including my spouse)...what other metrics should be included? Could you explain what you mean?

Regarding match lists, I wasn't trying to make a point that Columbia/Cornell had better match lists (hence the "maybe" and "a bit"), but I just did what most other people did and went through their match lists. Like you said, they all three have great match lists. I don't think there's a meaningful difference between them.

Agreed that PD rankings aren't a big deal, but most comparisons between these schools are splitting hairs so I believe it still has some relevance, lol.

And with all due respect, I think you are strongly biased against certain areas of NYC. I have numerous family members and friends who live in NYC and they'd definitely choose Washington Heights over the around NYU. Not sure if you've surveyed Black/Brown NYers well or how well these groups are represented in your inner circles, but the people I know do not care for that area of NYC as much. I know I'd rather live elsewhere in the city too. Like I said, it's really just a matter of personal preference.

When I say diversity, I'm referring to student body diversity, which I believe is more important to the student's overall experience than hospital diversity. Also, NYC is an extremely diverse city, so I don't think students at any of the schools will struggle to have diversity in the patient population.

I do agree that a case can be made for all three of them, but I'm still not seeing the evidence to support your claim that NYU is "cemented" as top dog in NYC. Could you maybe elaborate on that a bit more?
 
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Goro said:
Ask five people, you'll get six different answers.

I'll play:

U Penn >>>> Jefferson > Temple > Drexel > PCOM
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Just curious, where would you put Pitt and Geisinger in that mix if we're talking about Pennsylvania in general?
 
456432 said:
Just curious, where would you put Pitt and Geisinger in that mix if we're talking about Pennsylvania in general?
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Murkier.

Maybe U Penn > Pitt >>> Jeff > Temple > Geisinger > Drexel > PCOM.

Note that I have omitted Penn State from the list. That is because I cannot recommend them at all, given that their parent body protected a child molester for over 20 years.
 
I'mInDer! said:
And with all due respect, I think you are strongly biased against certain areas of NYC. I have numerous family members and friends who live in NYC and they'd definitely choose Washington Heights over the around NYU. Not sure if you've surveyed Black/Brown NYers well or how well these groups are represented in your inner circles
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To the bolded, I am one, I grew up in the non-manhattan boroughs and I understand the points you are making. I am speaking about the general medical student age range (20-30) population - that NYU area is just more fun. But ultimately of course it's personal preference.

To the rest of your points, I can see the merit of your arguments - no point in going around in circles (also I don't want to type too much). If one gets into any 4 of the manhattan schools, their medical career is on a strong strong trajectory.
 
Banco said:
To the bolded, I am one, I grew up in the non-manhattan boroughs and I understand the points you are making. I am speaking about the general medical student age range (20-30) population - that NYU area is just more fun. But ultimately of course it's personal preference.

To the rest of your points, I can see the merit of your arguments - no point in going around in circles (also I don't want to type too much). If one gets into any 4 of the manhattan schools, their medical career is on a strong strong trajectory.
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That is a fair point, so I'm sure you understand that it varies pretty widely. Now that I think about it more, it is probably true that the types of people who are most likely to be admitted to those schools would prefer living in the area around NYU. I think this is likely indicative of other issues, but it's still a valid point.

And I agree. They're all really good schools.
 
I'mInDer! said:
I'd say Penn >>> Jefferson/Temple > Drexel > PCOM. Don't really think there's a meaningful difference between Jefferson and Temple, but imo the loss of Hahnemann undoubtedly impacted Drexel in a negative way. Seems like it is bouncing back pretty quickly, though.
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Temple is in an awful neighborhood, and this must be considered. IM is quite good there, but gen surg not so much. Fair at gallbladders and hernias, but absolute mad penetrating trauma skills. Get shot in your heart in Philly, that is where you want to go.. Jeff has much more money and resources.. Penn didn't used to have a family med program, but now it appears it does. I was going to list that as a negative. PCOM is one of the oldest schools and has a solid regional reputation in Philly and the east coast. I know several grads who went on to do residencies at Penn.
 
Since we are comparing schools how do you all compare Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, JHU and Penn especially for someone interested in surgery? Just curious
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Since we are comparing schools how do you all compare Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, JHU and Penn especially for someone interested in surgery? Just curious
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Low tier schools - good luck matching general surgery from there...



I am applying general surgery this year (the match wait is killing me, that's why I waste so much time on sdn these days). I've interviewed at a couple of those. Realistically, the only practical difference there would be if one wants to do surgery residency at the home program of their medical school - chances are generally higher if you're a home student. While all of the home programs are great, I would say with regards to medical schools Harvard > Penn = JHU = UCSF > Stanford.

I put Harvard at top because it affords you much higher chances at interviewing at MGH, BWH, and BIDMC for surgery - 3 pretty renowned programs (with MGH being the crown jewel).

Penn, JHU, and UCSF have equally strong programs as MGH imo, with differences here and there, just personal preference at that point. Stanford is a famous surgery program too, but I would say the general surgery department is a tiny thin hair under the aforementioned.


All 5 of those do a lot of exchange among each other for general surgery though (it's like a carousel of incest), so again, practically identical apart from home program advantage.
 
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Banco said:
Low tier schools - good luck matching general surgery from there.
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Seriously! People keep asking questions like this, every single cycle, and the answer never changes. I wonder if it's anything more than some sort of weird flex, since, surely, people good enough to actually consider, let alone be admitted to this tier of school know that these choices come down to personal preferences, there are no bad choices at this tier of school, and no one's opportunities will be limited, in any specialty, by going to any one of these schools instead of another.

Either that, or maybe people trying to make themselves feel better if they got into some of these schools and not others. Again, everyone has their dream school, but there is no meaningful professional difference between #1 and #6 in a world with 150 schools, and, in their heads if not their hearts, everyone considering this tier of school HAS to know this. JMHO as a future applicant who would LOVE to be admitted to any one of these schools, even if it meant being rejected by all the others. 🙂
 
Banco said:
Low tier schools - good luck matching general surgery from there...



I am applying general surgery this year (the match wait is killing me, that's why I waste so much time on sdn these days). I've interviewed at a couple of those. Realistically, the only practical difference there would be if one wants to do surgery residency at the home program of their medical school - chances are generally higher if you're a home student. While all of the home programs are great, I would say with regards to medical schools Harvard > Penn = JHU = UCSF > Stanford.

I put Harvard at top because it affords you much higher chances at interviewing at MGH, BWH, and BIDMC for surgery - 3 pretty renowned programs (with MGH being the crown jewel).

Penn, JHU, and UCSF have equally strong programs as MGH imo, with differences here and there, just personal preference at that point. Stanford is a famous surgery program too, but I would say the general surgery department is a tiny thin hair under the aforementioned.


All 5 of those do a lot of exchange among each other for general surgery though (it's like a carousel of incest), so again, practically identical apart from home program advantage.
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Thanks for the expanded response. Any opinion on Ortho and Optho at those schools?
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Thanks for the expanded response. Any opinion on Ortho and Optho at those schools?
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Totally ignorant there. But just peruse their match lists from the last few years. I can't imagine they have any trouble.
 
Banco said:
Totally ignorant there. But just peruse their match lists from the last few years. I can't imagine they have any trouble.
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Some say match list may not tell full story.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Some say match list may not tell full story.
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You are right. The residency match list only defines the numerator (the people who got into the specialty) and doesn't define the denominator (the number of people who applied for that specialty from that school). Thus it doesn't tell us the success rates of matching in any specialty for that school.
 
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