Read this about ND's

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

SleepIsGood

Support the ASA !
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
1,965
Reaction score
2
I appreciate the vigilance, but physicians cannot honestly expect to have a monopoly on the healthcare delivery system. Ideally youd like to see this coupled with an initiative to produce research and back up the methodology, but why is a 4-year degree in alternative medicine any less challenging or less valuable. Maybe its scary because we dont know what they learn, but all that will come in time. BTW, this will happen, but hopefully some strong requirements (i.e. must complete the 4 year program, no grandfathering, strict licensure exams) will be met.

These alternative docs have patients, and those patients keep coming to them, otherwise there would not be a demand for this legislation. Whereas you see this as a threat to all physicians, I think the mainstream medical community fears changes like this, mainly because it will force the current FP system to improve its delivery of health care. Having seen plenty of primary care options, I dont necessarily feel that is a bad thing.
 
The scary thing is, I was seriously thinking of going to a naturopathic school as a Plan B back in college when I was still applying to med school.
 
Idiopathic said:
I appreciate the vigilance, but physicians cannot honestly expect to have a monopoly on the healthcare delivery system. Ideally youd like to see this coupled with an initiative to produce research and back up the methodology, but why is a 4-year degree in alternative medicine any less challenging or less valuable. Maybe its scary because we dont know what they learn, but all that will come in time. BTW, this will happen, but hopefully some strong requirements (i.e. must complete the 4 year program, no grandfathering, strict licensure exams) will be met.

These alternative docs have patients, and those patients keep coming to them, otherwise there would not be a demand for this legislation. Whereas you see this as a threat to all physicians, I think the mainstream medical community fears changes like this, mainly because it will force the current FP system to improve its delivery of health care. Having seen plenty of primary care options, I dont necessarily feel that is a bad thing.

As the article says, it's been practiced for over a century in the US. Then they called it snake oil salesmen, now they call it "naturopathic".
They don't use "synthetic" drugs, but "herbals." Well, guess what, boys and girls, "herbals" have had pharmacologically active substances going further back than recorded history. We use them on a daily basis. The boiled bark of the willow tree was used to make a tea that relieved headaches, chest pain and arthritis pain, it was a truely miraculous substance. Today, we don't peel bark off of trees, we go to the grocery story pay a buck and buy a bottle of aspirin. And use it for darned near everything from strokes and heart attacks to bee stings to colon cancer prevention/treatment.

One of the most powerful antineoplastic drugs we know of are taxanes, which stablize microtubules preventing completion of mitosis. These drugs were discovered originally in the pacific yew tree in the late 1980s and the Sierra Club and a few other misguided individual groups decided that we shouldn't kill trees to get taxol to treat ovarian cancer and cut off the supply for several years, until some research scientist found a way to make it from other materials. Now it's a mainstay. Naturalpathy or good empirical science and research?

Abx. A sloppy scientist in a lab has mold growing on his culture plates. Although sloppy, he's observant and notes that moldy plates don't have any bacterial cultures. Hmmm, extract of mold juice becomes b-lactams and now we have penicillins and suddenly our life expectancy doubles because we can cure most bacterial infections. Thank you Dr. Fleming.

Contraception. True story. 27 yo G4P3 finally comes in for follow up to an abnormal pap, has a palpable fundus. UPT positive, and a 26 week uterus. You're not pregnant because a.) you're not doing 'it'? b.) you're doing it but taking precautions? Ans: I was on the pill but my friends told me that it was dangerous to take those "synthetic drugs that upset your metabolism" so I switched to soy estrogens. Ahh, I see, did you know that OCP originally called premarin comes from the urine of pregnant mares? (PREgnant MARe urINe) It's just been purified, standardized and the hormonal and dosing quantified. There are ongoing studies using soy extracts and lycopenes in stabilization of prostate cancer right now...stay tuned for results in several years, but for now, gimme the lupron and radiation/surgery.

And does anybody know that St. Johns Wort really works for depression? Yes, folks, it's natural. It's a natural mono-amine oxidase inhibitor. And, as we are all hopefully taught, MAO inhibitors have lots of drug-drug interactions, but does anyone know what the concentrations in the GNC version of an MAO really are? And while we're at it just why did we switch to SSRIs as a first line antidepressent? Maybe because if you did the study you found that they were as effective and perhaps safer?

I ask, what could be more "natural" than aspirin, extract of mold juice, and horse pis?

So, we want to licence them and give them legitimacy?

...and they only want to do "natural" procedures like natural childbirth, giving potions of undetermined pharmacology at uncertain dosages and "minor" surgery? Well, what happens when the natural childbirth has a failure to progress, the kiddo starts having long deep decels? And my definition of minor surgery is when I'm pointing the knife at someone else. If someone else is pointing the knife at me, then it's not minor, no matter how skilled and how simple the surgery may be.

Licensing of naturopaths? Skilled and diligent though they may be, they are not trained, and perhaps the AMA has gone overboard in demanding that everyone be a "specialist" including GPs taking multiple years of residency instead of the old med school + internship = GP leading the would be "naturopathic doctors" to seek quicker alternative routes. Maybe we need a few more GPs and an opportunity for them to practice unhindered by the need for two additional years of residency, instead.

Licensing of naturopaths? Horse hockey.
 
My reply to you is this:

At some point in the not-so-distant past, plenty of people became dissatisfied and distrustful of the current medical establishment. Regardless of why, it is no longer impossible to deny these newer fields a chance to practice. However, you view licensure as a way to a greater freedom (to do things they are already doing, right?) and I hope it becomes a way to reign in some of the "natural" treatments (perhaps leading to more empiric therapy and standardization of treatments) what would a 'licensed naturopath' have to gain from being licensed, anyway? Likely just a little bigger reimbursement and more validation. Do you really think all NDs are doctor-supervised? I imagine its a lot like some of the nursing home docs I know...you know, with their monthly visits. I dont know, Im just saying its going to be very difficult to ignore these paraprofessionals and almost impossible to squelch a truly motivated group.


This type of medicine has, in some form or another, been around since the beginning of time.
 
While I recognize there may be some value to herbal medications, I think it is irresponsible to allow NDs to practice independently. For one thing, herbals are not FDA approved. Do you have epocrates essentials? Type in your favorite herbal med. I realize this is just one source, but for most of the herbal meds it says, "safety/efficacy may not be established; concentration of active ingredients may vary widely b/w products". I actually remember a journal club in med school where herbal meds were discussed. This exact issue of how there is not regulation was brought up and debated. These herbal meds that ppl buy are not regulated AT all. The dose of a given plant is not known within each pill.

Also, Idiopath how do you propose to regulate NDs? If you read the article, supposedly some may perform 'minor surgeries". So what is 'minor surgery'? A lap chole? Appendicitis? Corn removal from one's foot? Once complete autonomy is bestowed upon non-physicians it is VERY difficult to regulate them. How would the patient know what a ND can and can not do? What do you propose to do with the NDs that tell their patient, "oh yah I can cure this infection with this tree bark?" W/o a consultation from a physician how would a ND know that a particular disease entity is minor enough to be treated by a plant bark?

I do realize that the ancients used such things as plants,etc to treat diseases. However, as we have all learned diseases have progressed and some have become more complex. If not, why the continued research we have today?

This is just another turf battle my friend. Again, another attempt to be called, "doctor'. I think our medical profession in general is getting 'raped' because we physicians/future physicians are afraid to put our feet down. This is dangerous, not just for FPs, but also for the patients they serve. This "chance to practice" you refer to is dangerous, especially when the potential to what may occur to patients is so high.

Irregardless. Although I am not going into primary care. I believe it is important for us (physicians) no matter what specialty, to help the primary care physicians who seem to have been hit the worse with midlevels and now this.
 
Idiopathic said:
My reply to you is this:

At some point in the not-so-distant past, plenty of people became dissatisfied and distrustful of the current medical establishment. Regardless of why, it is no longer impossible to deny these newer fields a chance to practice. However, you view licensure as a way to a greater freedom

No. I am, believe it or not, very close to being a libertarian, but since we live in a society that believes that regulation and licensure is necessary, and these things do create barriers to entry into a guild or profession, then we must ask what is the purpose of licensure? Some of us answer, to create barriers to entry and thus preserve our prestige and affluence, others, answer to protect people who do not have the knowledge or training and to keep society safe from those who would prey on that ignorance. I do not view licensure as a wa to greater freedom, but increasingly onerous taxation and restriction.

You said society has become distrustful of the current medical establishment. I think that is true, since individuals are to a large extent fully insulated from the cost/benefit of medicine and view full medical care as a sovreign entitlement, without realization of the cost. TANSTAAFL. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Moreso, I think that AETNA/USHealthCare and the big insurers are looking for a free lunch and the easiest target are those darned docs who are costing us all this money, treating disease and pestillence and whatnot with clinical evidence based treatments.

But, licensure is society's assurance that the person who is about to remove a seborrhic keratosis knows the difference between it and a malignant melanoma and the differences in procedures to insure that a melanoma doesn't spread. And with the permission of society through licensure, certain obligations are mandated: decades of education and training. Through experience, we have collectively decided (absent evidence and prospective studies, I might add) that MD + specialty residency is better than MD + internship is better than MD alone.

Idiopathic said:
(to do things they are already doing, right?)
If they are, then they are practicing medicine san license and as such are committing a crime in most of the several states.

Idiopathic said:
and I hope it becomes a way to reign in some of the "natural" treatments (perhaps leading to more empiric therapy and standardization of treatments)
what would a 'licensed naturopath' have to gain from being licensed, anyway? Likely just a little bigger reimbursement and more validation.

Exactly. Credentials granted by society lend credibility and with credibility right or wrong comes acceptance for treatments which may or may not be helpful but are for certain unstudied and uncontrolled. That is until John Edwards hears about the "naturopathic" childbirth with prolong lates that has cerebral palsy because the naturopath attending the birth decided that a section wasn't "natural." or to put it in the words of Shakespeare's MacBeth: "...I was not of woman born, but from my mother's womb untimely ripped." ie a c-section. This despite the evidence that says CP is likely not related to fetal distress during LD.

Idiopathic said:
Do you really think all NDs are doctor-supervised? I imagine its a lot like some of the nursing home docs I know...you know, with their monthly visits. I dont know, Im just saying its going to be very difficult to ignore these paraprofessionals and almost impossible to squelch a truly motivated group.

Until they kill someone and it becomes very public. And what does nursing home docs have to do with this issue? And yes, I do know dedicated and dilligent docs who do keep careful track of their patients and changes in their conditions.

And as for squelching a truly motivated group, you might have something there. Cocaine/heroin abusers are pretty motivated and it has been impossible to squelch them. But, since society has determined that they do great harm to society as well as themselves, does that mean we shouldn't try to protect society? I think not.

A naturopathic "doctor" sent me a set of tapes once. I lisgtened to them, wish I still had them because they were so ludicrous once you sat back and analyzed them. It was entitled "dead doctors don't lie." He went on for 90 minutes to disparage medicine in favor of naturopathy. His rationale was to draw on his experience as a vet and talked about cows. They eat a vegan diet, don't have stokes, heart diseases or cancers, unlike people. He went on to build a case for naturopathic treatments to prevent this based on some potion similar to what cows eat. Hay or oats perhaps? What he omitted from his prior experience as a vet, is that the reasons cows don't get strokes, heart diseases or cancer is that they don't get old enough to get them. We kill them and eat them long before their natural lifespan. And they do get diseases, and cancers, so while dead doctors don't lie, live "naturopaths" mislead and misguide. I'm dealing with a cancer patient right now that has mets from a diagnosed early stage anal cancer that could have been treated. He went to a naturopath, got hyperthermia treatments and two years later has widespread mets. So, is this right?
 
My $0.02, people can go see them but while the government and society continues to expect more from us it demands less of itself. For a drug to be FDA approved pharma has to jump through crazy hoops. for me to market jiujiu extra special blend herbs I just have to prove i wont kill anyone?

Same for these docs is there any research to show what they do is harmless and helpful. In medicine some of the things we do are very dangerous but we weigh them vs the benefits. I dont know what they learn but I am guessing its a lot less than what I did.

And before anyone says that I am worried they are stepping on my turf, I am doing EM and as such I dont think they will take too many of my future patients.
 
SleepIsGood said:
While I recognize there may be some value to herbal medications, I think it is irresponsible to allow NDs to practice independently. For one thing, herbals are not FDA approved. Do you have epocrates essentials? Type in your favorite herbal med. I realize this is just one source, but for most of the herbal meds it says, "safety/efficacy may not be established; concentration of active ingredients may vary widely b/w products". I actually remember a journal club in med school where herbal meds were discussed. This exact issue of how there is not regulation was brought up and debated. These herbal meds that ppl buy are not regulated AT all. The dose of a given plant is not known within each pill.

Persomally, I hope that something like this would lead to the Fda at least standardizing these compounds. I dont want irresponsible supplement manufacturers to be allowed to put whatever they want in their products, and Im skeptical enough to believe it happens.

SleepIsGood said:
Also, Idiopath how do you propose to regulate NDs? If you read the article, supposedly some may perform 'minor surgeries". So what is 'minor surgery'? A lap chole? Appendicitis? Corn removal from one's foot? Once complete autonomy is bestowed upon non-physicians it is VERY difficult to regulate them. How would the patient know what a ND can and can not do? What do you propose to do with the NDs that tell their patient, "oh yah I can cure this infection with this tree bark?" W/o a consultation from a physician how would a ND know that a particular disease entity is minor enough to be treated by a plant bark?

I guess I just dont see licensure as 'complete autonomy'. I also know that in this day and age, medical physicians are going to have to esnure their profession by validating what it is they do. The days of 'trust the doctor because he is a doctor' are nearing an end. We are all going to fight the same war that ophthos/optos are fighting currently.


SleepIsGood said:
This is just another turf battle my friend. Again, another attempt to be called, "doctor'. I think our medical profession in general is getting 'raped' because we physicians/future physicians are afraid to put our feet down. This is dangerous, not just for FPs, but also for the patients they serve. This "chance to practice" you refer to is dangerous, especially when the potential to what may occur to patients is so high.

Irregardless. Although I am not going into primary care. I believe it is important for us (physicians) no matter what specialty, to help the primary care physicians who seem to have been hit the worse with midlevels and now this.

Call me naive. I just believe that, until their confidence in the mainstream medical establishment is shattered, people would rather go to a physician. We are in agreement about a lot of this stuff, I just view this as a chance to have a hand in possibly regulating some of the actions. For instance, now they have to carry their own malpractice and they fall under some of the same statutes. But it isnt like they would be getting a medical license, they would get their own license with its own retsrictions and accreditations.

It isnt like I want a bunch of ND's around making bad medical decisions, and Im not trying to sell out my profession either.
 
3dtp said:
since we live in a society that believes that regulation and licensure is necessary, and these things do create barriers to entry into a guild or profession, then we must ask what is the purpose of licensure?

Ideally to help provide a system of checks, balances, requirements and restrictions. To gain standardization of the profession.

3dtp said:
You said society has become distrustful of the current medical establishment. I think that is true, since individuals are to a large extent fully insulated from the cost/benefit of medicine and view full medical care as a sovreign entitlement, without realization of the cost. TANSTAAFL. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Well, Im a little more cynical when it comes to this. People understand when a group has a monopoly and physicians have had a pretty big monopoly on health care delivery and turned it into a fairly sizable profit margin, which has tapered down recently. Physicians were able to make decisions and act fairly autonomously, up until recently (as perceived by the public), and even subconsciously, people tend to distrust that.

3dtp said:
And with the permission of society through licensure, certain obligations are mandated: decades of education and training. Through experience, we have collectively decided (absent evidence and prospective studies, I might add) that MD + specialty residency is better than MD + internship is better than MD alone.

"We" may have decided that, but MD+internship equals MD+subspecialty training in the eyes of the public, and usually in the eyes of the third-party payers. And 'decades' of education and training? Thats a little bit of conjecture, no?

3dtp said:
Until they kill someone and it becomes very public. And what does nursing home docs have to do with this issue? And yes, I do know dedicated and dilligent docs who do keep careful track of their patients and changes in their conditions.

Enter malpractice insurance. MD/DO's contribute to the deaths of plenty of patients, and they usually end up feeling it in their pocketbooks. Crass as that is, its the major check placed on the administration of medicine today.

Let me tell you about nursing homes. Plenty of docs take care of nursing homes on contract to supplement their practices, but they do not all provide quality medical care. Now, when these patients have to go in the hospital, thats a different story, but while they are at home, are their basic medical needs being met? Not by the lowest bidder, you can bet.

3dtp said:
I'm dealing with a cancer patient right now that has mets from a diagnosed early stage anal cancer that could have been treated. He went to a naturopath, got hyperthermia treatments and two years later has widespread mets. So, is this right?

My first question would be why did he go to a naturopath for treatment? Was the physician unable to communicate to the px the need for treatment and the options? Did they convey a dismal outlook to the patient and he chose a treatment option that he felt provided him with more hope, because the ND seemed more concerned? This type of thing is very real. Im sorry you dont see this as a problem, but people have to come to this conclusion, and its usually behavior by/attitude of a physician that turns people to naturopathic medicine. That and infomercials, I suppose.

I believe in the training that we get, and I believe that our system of healthcare delivery is the best in the world, but just because I believe that doesnt make it so, and shouldnt eliminate other alternatives. You view licensure for ND's as a way for them to circumvent the medical establishment, I (hope) that is becomes a way to restrict the practice and help standardize the methods. I think we both want the same outcome here
 
EctopicFetus said:
Same for these docs is there any research to show what they do is harmless and helpful. In medicine some of the things we do are very dangerous but we weigh them vs the benefits. I dont know what they learn but I am guessing its a lot less than what I did.

Get off your high horse. http://nccam.nih.gov/clinicaltrials/alltrials.htm
 
Poety said:
PH get back in the psych forum, stop harrassing them here :laugh:

Who made you a member of the SDN police? Get back to the CN! :laugh:
 
Idiopathic,

You are entirely misguided as to why these midlevels and NDs among others are stealing turf from doctors.

It has nothing to do with the public and EVERYTHING to do with these "doctors" wanting more $$$$$

There is ZERO evidence that people cant get healthcare when they seek it out. Paying for it may be a problem, but thats a problem regardless of whether its an MD or a midlevel treating you.

Lets get this straight. MDs make a lot more money than midlevels or other doctor wannabes. The others are very jealous of this. So they wrap up this debate around "public access" when in fact its about one thing and one thing only: $$$$$
 
MacGyver said:
Idiopathic,

You are entirely misguided as to why these midlevels and NDs among others are stealing turf from doctors.

It has nothing to do with the public and EVERYTHING to do with these "doctors" wanting more $$$$$

There is ZERO evidence that people cant get healthcare when they seek it out. Paying for it may be a problem, but thats a problem regardless of whether its an MD or a midlevel treating you.

Lets get this straight. MDs make a lot more money than midlevels or other doctor wannabes. The others are very jealous of this. So they wrap up this debate around "public access" when in fact its about one thing and one thing only: $$$$$

Right-y-o, man, right-y-o.
 
MacGyver said:
......

It has nothing to do with the public and EVERYTHING to do with these "doctors" wanting more $$$$$

There is ZERO evidence that people cant get healthcare when they seek it out. Paying for it may be a problem, but thats a problem regardless of whether its an MD or a midlevel treating you.

Lets get this straight. MDs make a lot more money than midlevels or other doctor wannabes. The others are very jealous of this. So they wrap up this debate around "public access" when in fact its about one thing and one thing only: $$$$$

I dont know you. But you are absolutely right with what you said above. 👍

Ever gone to Bally's lately? They have "Pain Clinics". On the window to the office this is what I read:

Pain Medical Doctors/Physicians
Dr. John Smith, ND
Dr. Jamie Bugler, doctor of acupunture
Dr. Jack Hans, Chiropractic Physician
Dr. Sally Dobbs, Homeopathic doctor


😱
P.S. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. Seriously though, this is what I see every day.
 
SleepIsGood said:
I dont know you. But you are absolutely right with what you said above. 👍

Ever gone to Bally's lately? They have "Pain Clinics". On the window to the office this is what I read:

Pain Medical Doctors/Physicians
Dr. John Smith, ND
Dr. Jamie Bugler, doctor of acupunture
Dr. Jack Hans, Chiropractic Physician
Dr. Sally Dobbs, Homeopathic doctor


😱
P.S. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. Seriously though, this is what I see every day.


report them for false advertisement.
 
3dtp said:
As the article says, it's been practiced for over a century in the US. Then they called it snake oil salesmen, now they call it "naturopathic".
They don't use "synthetic" drugs, but "herbals." Well, guess what, boys and girls, "herbals" have had pharmacologically active substances going further back than recorded history. We use them on a daily basis. The boiled bark of the willow tree was used to make a tea that relieved headaches, chest pain and arthritis pain, it was a truely miraculous substance. Today, we don't peel bark off of trees, we go to the grocery story pay a buck and buy a bottle of aspirin. And use it for darned near everything from strokes and heart attacks to bee stings to colon cancer prevention/treatment.

One of the most powerful antineoplastic drugs we know of are taxanes, which stablize microtubules preventing completion of mitosis. These drugs were discovered originally in the pacific yew tree in the late 1980s and the Sierra Club and a few other misguided individual groups decided that we shouldn't kill trees to get taxol to treat ovarian cancer and cut off the supply for several years, until some research scientist found a way to make it from other materials. Now it's a mainstay. Naturalpathy or good empirical science and research?

Abx. A sloppy scientist in a lab has mold growing on his culture plates. Although sloppy, he's observant and notes that moldy plates don't have any bacterial cultures. Hmmm, extract of mold juice becomes b-lactams and now we have penicillins and suddenly our life expectancy doubles because we can cure most bacterial infections. Thank you Dr. Fleming.

Contraception. True story. 27 yo G4P3 finally comes in for follow up to an abnormal pap, has a palpable fundus. UPT positive, and a 26 week uterus. You're not pregnant because a.) you're not doing 'it'? b.) you're doing it but taking precautions? Ans: I was on the pill but my friends told me that it was dangerous to take those "synthetic drugs that upset your metabolism" so I switched to soy estrogens. Ahh, I see, did you know that OCP originally called premarin comes from the urine of pregnant mares? (PREgnant MARe urINe) It's just been purified, standardized and the hormonal and dosing quantified. There are ongoing studies using soy extracts and lycopenes in stabilization of prostate cancer right now...stay tuned for results in several years, but for now, gimme the lupron and radiation/surgery.

And does anybody know that St. Johns Wort really works for depression? Yes, folks, it's natural. It's a natural mono-amine oxidase inhibitor. And, as we are all hopefully taught, MAO inhibitors have lots of drug-drug interactions, but does anyone know what the concentrations in the GNC version of an MAO really are? And while we're at it just why did we switch to SSRIs as a first line antidepressent? Maybe because if you did the study you found that they were as effective and perhaps safer?

I ask, what could be more "natural" than aspirin, extract of mold juice, and horse pis?

So, we want to licence them and give them legitimacy?

...and they only want to do "natural" procedures like natural childbirth, giving potions of undetermined pharmacology at uncertain dosages and "minor" surgery? Well, what happens when the natural childbirth has a failure to progress, the kiddo starts having long deep decels? And my definition of minor surgery is when I'm pointing the knife at someone else. If someone else is pointing the knife at me, then it's not minor, no matter how skilled and how simple the surgery may be.

Licensing of naturopaths? Skilled and diligent though they may be, they are not trained, and perhaps the AMA has gone overboard in demanding that everyone be a "specialist" including GPs taking multiple years of residency instead of the old med school + internship = GP leading the would be "naturopathic doctors" to seek quicker alternative routes. Maybe we need a few more GPs and an opportunity for them to practice unhindered by the need for two additional years of residency, instead.

Licensing of naturopaths? Horse hockey.


Quite possibly the most cogent and lucid argument against the unregulated "alternative health" field I have ever read.

As for what licensure does for the medical profession...I suggest that whatever it ORIGINALLY did has long been replaced. Licensure now does little but make doctors easier to sue than everyone who is "alternative". Why get licensed? Why get FDA approval? You can make more without it.
 
SleepIsGood said:
While I recognize there may be some value to herbal medications, I think it is irresponsible to allow NDs to practice independently. For one thing, herbals are not FDA approved. Do you have epocrates essentials? Type in your favorite herbal med. I realize this is just one source, but for most of the herbal meds it says, "safety/efficacy may not be established; concentration of active ingredients may vary widely b/w products". I actually remember a journal club in med school where herbal meds were discussed. This exact issue of how there is not regulation was brought up and debated. These herbal meds that ppl buy are not regulated AT all. The dose of a given plant is not known within each pill.

Also, Idiopath how do you propose to regulate NDs? If you read the article, supposedly some may perform 'minor surgeries". So what is 'minor surgery'? A lap chole? Appendicitis? Corn removal from one's foot? Once complete autonomy is bestowed upon non-physicians it is VERY difficult to regulate them. How would the patient know what a ND can and can not do? What do you propose to do with the NDs that tell their patient, "oh yah I can cure this infection with this tree bark?" W/o a consultation from a physician how would a ND know that a particular disease entity is minor enough to be treated by a plant bark?

I do realize that the ancients used such things as plants,etc to treat diseases. However, as we have all learned diseases have progressed and some have become more complex. If not, why the continued research we have today?

This is just another turf battle my friend. Again, another attempt to be called, "doctor'. I think our medical profession in general is getting 'raped' because we physicians/future physicians are afraid to put our feet down. This is dangerous, not just for FPs, but also for the patients they serve. This "chance to practice" you refer to is dangerous, especially when the potential to what may occur to patients is so high.

Irregardless. Although I am not going into primary care. I believe it is important for us (physicians) no matter what specialty, to help the primary care physicians who seem to have been hit the worse with midlevels and now this.

Sleep - in reference to your point that the medical profession itself is partially at fault - I agree. In CA, naturopathic doctors received prescribing authority in Jan 2006 - "under standardized procedures or protocols with a supervising physician or surgeon". That means some MD/DO is the individual condoning & promoting the practice!!! If it was not condoned by the medical profession (or those who have political power), it wouldn't happen, at least in CA! - & I wouldn't have the headache of having to figure out who the supervising physician is (selfish I know!).

For whomever wanted herbals to be standardized by the FDA like drugs - they won't be until there is definitive evidence there is a benefit from them. Chemicals need to not just show reliable concentrations, they also need to show efficacy to become a drug. This is a result of the Federal Food & Drug Act of 1906 which did away with snake oil. Until they do, they are classified as foods which still falls under the FDA (ie Food & Drug), but with less strenous evidence required. The only real restrictions are on what they can advertise.
 
Top