***Read this if applying to Australia Med Schools as an International****

[Ozdoc]

To all of those considering applying to any medical school in Australia, please read up on the current situation with the current international students. None have been offered an internship position which makes the degree worthless in most parts of the world.
Plus they treat the international students like second class citizens...
Reconsider before it is too late and you are $300k in debt!

http://www.smh.com.au/national/hospitals-buckle-in-tsunami-of-interns-20090724-dw5z.html

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[pitman]

Um, like the article says, you mean int'l students in New South Wales haven't been guaranteed spots, and are currently waiting to hear what happens this year, as they are currently in the middle of the ballot.

There are other threads already discussing this.

 

[Daemos]

This has been discussed before...please stop trolling.

 

[shan564]

The SMH article was no new news. It's just an attempt from the USyd medical students to reach out to the media so that we can get some public support.

Also - the degree is not "worthless" without an internship in most of the world. With an Australian med degree, you can do internship/residency training in almost any country, including the US and Canada. You can also do your internship in NZ/Singapore/Malaysia and still come back to Oz. There are several other developed countries that would be happy to have you.

No Americans/Canadians go to Oz if they can get into med school in their home country. The point is that you want to get a medical degree so that you can go back to the US and be judged based on your ability to score well on the USMLE. The possibility of getting an internship in Australia is just an added bonus.

 

[Ozdoc]

Um, like the article says, you mean int'l students in New South Wales haven't been guaranteed spots, and are currently waiting to hear what happens this year, as they are currently in the middle of the ballot.

There are other threads already discussing this.

There have been updates that 670 spots have been allocated and 672 positions were filled without any internationals getting one. No this is not just NSW, it is Queensland as well.
So unless 200 spots open up, many students are left without jobs and this is the first year and will only get worse as more graduate from the new schools and increasing numbers from existing schools.
There are only 800 spots currently that can be actually done with spaces, but the gov't has only chosen to fund 670.
Students should be warned and know what they are getting into. Sorry Pitman it has been written before some of us don't have time to go through every thread, but apparently you have the time to respond to all of them.

 

[Ozdoc]

The SMH article was no new news. It's just an attempt from the USyd medical students to reach out to the media so that we can get some public support.

Also - the degree is not "worthless" without an internship in most of the world. With an Australian med degree, you can do internship/residency training in almost any country, including the US and Canada. You can also do your internship in NZ/Singapore/Malaysia and still come back to Oz. There are several other developed countries that would be happy to have you.

No Americans/Canadians go to Oz if they can get into med school in their home country. The point is that you want to get a medical degree so that you can go back to the US and be judged based on your ability to score well on the USMLE. The possibility of getting an internship in Australia is just an added bonus.

Actually most of the students that I know from the US got into US medical schools and decided to come here for a different experience, and yes you can get into US, but you are judged as a foreign medical grad and it is difficult to get a spot, but the that is not that point, many people wished to stay in this country and can't get their PR status, because they don't have an internship.
Students from this year were also told they had an internship spot and did not bother to apply to other countries which most are too late for. It is nearly impossible to start now and have an ERAS application ready to submit. You must sit boards. Luckily lower years are being warned so they have the option to sit US and Canadian exams.
You should review other counties policies, it is not as easy as you think to move around without an internship, since you are not a registered doctor without it in Australia.

 

[pitman]

There have been updates that 670 spots have been allocated and 672 positions were filled without any internationals getting one. No this is not just NSW, it is Queensland as well.
So unless 200 spots open up, many students are left without jobs and this is the first year and will only get worse as more graduate from the new schools and increasing numbers from existing schools.

The problem is when people don't look at all and merely post sensational blurbs which are wholly unqualfied.

What you're saying in your more qualified follow-up is identical to what happened in Qld last year -- spots weren't available after round 1 by a long shot, and then they opened up, allowing the int'ls who wanted to stay to stay.

I'm not saying this will happen in NSW this year, or that the future looks rosy -- it will indeed get worse, first in NSW and Qld (the first two states to hit the tsunami). However, the results are not out yet for this year, and this is the final year that int'ls will be so low on the priority list in NSW, and the number of spots for next year's ballot aren't even known, so it's premature to make the claims you did above.

NSW students knew the tsunami and resulting crunch were coming and should have been applying out-of-state as a backup plan no matter what conflicting information they've been hearing, as they do in Qld. Or maybe students in NSW are less informed.

There is also currently still a surplus of spots across the country, yet you claimed that "none" of the int'ls in Australia have a job next year. That required not just qualification, but a correction.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

Actually most of the students that I know from the US got into US medical schools and decided to come here for a different experience, and yes you can get into US, but you are judged as a foreign medical grad and it is difficult to get a spot, but the that is not that point, many people wished to stay in this country and can't get their PR status, because they don't have an internship.
Students from this year were also told they had an internship spot and did not bother to apply to other countries which most are too late for. It is nearly impossible to start now and have an ERAS application ready to submit. You must sit boards. Luckily lower years are being warned so they have the option to sit US and Canadian exams.
You should review other counties policies, it is not as easy as you think to move around without an internship, since you are not a registered doctor without it in Australia.

Whether they want a different experience or not, the moment you go outside the US for training and return, you are an IMG, and that makes it incredibly more difficult to get a residency. IMGs usually get residencies that US graduates did not take.

I am aware of the intern situation in Australia and that is why I changed my mind about looking at Australian medical schools.

 

[shan564]

Whether they want a different experience or not, the moment you go outside the US for training and return, you are an IMG, and that makes it incredibly more difficult to get a residency. IMGs usually get residencies that US graduates did not take.

You just made that up. There are a few reasons why residencies are difficult for IMGs:

1. Visa issues.
2. Lack of American rec letters.
3. Poor English/interview skills.

Those issues aren't true for Aussie grads who did a couple of rotations in the US. If you look at average USMLE scores by specialty, they're about the same for IMGs and locals.

 

[shan564]

Actually most of the students that I know from the US got into US medical schools and decided to come here for a different experience,

Your experience is clearly different from mine. 100% of the Americans I know at USyd are only here because they couldn't get into American med schools (not including people who are just doing a rotation at USyd). The same is true for Canadians.

 

[JPR22]

I dont really see anyone being hurt too much by this.
Since international students are from a variety of countries, it will likely have different impacts, depeding on their country of origin. Those from the US will likely easily obtain a residency in the US, because ozzie schools are known and respected, but more importantly because theres no visa issues. It gets a litte more complicated for Canadians. If they cant get a post in oz, the next 2 options are CaRMS, and the US match. Likely a few will match through carms. The rest should still match in the US, likely with a J-1, requiring them to leave the US after training. With all the reciprocity agreements now, this would likely return them to Canada, albeit by a rather convoluted route. Im curious about the consequences for those students from other asian countries. Im guessing they could return home for an internship too, but I dont really have any knowledge on the topic.

 

[redshifteffect]

Malaysian students can return easily. Singapore is a bit more complicated as your school has to be recognised by the SMC. I'm not sure about HK or Japan.

 

[Meddie83]

Shan,
You're pretty spot on about most things you post, but you are definitely wrong on this point. I know at least 1 American in first year USyd who got into at least one school in the US and chose Aus instead. I also know a second year Canadian at USyd who came to Sydney started med, got into UofT, went back to Toronto to study and decided to come back. She is now back in med at USyd. So you may be speaking about the majority of international students, but by no means all.

 

[shan564]

Shan,
You're pretty spot on about most things you post, but you are definitely wrong on this point. I know at least 1 American in first year USyd who got into at least one school in the US and chose Aus instead. I also know a second year Canadian at USyd who came to Sydney started med, got into UofT, went back to Toronto to study and decided to come back. She is now back in med at USyd. So you may be speaking about the majority of international students, but by no means all.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who got in there and chose to come here - I'm just saying that I don't know any of them. There are about 7-8 Americans in first-year USyd program, and I probably know 5-6 of them (plus a couple of senior students), and none of them got into US schools. I also know about 15-20 Canadians, and none of them got into Canadian schools (except for one, who left Sydney and went back to Canada after she got into U of Manitoba).

 

[MontereyMD]

As usual these Canadians in Australian medical schools will be really screwed if they want to practice in US or Canada. It will be pretty impossible for them. All that money for nothing!
US students in Australia have no problem getting back to the US for a residency. However Canadians have to get either an H-1 visa or J-1. Requirement for a H-1 is that the physician needs to have a medical licence or have applied for one. In order to get a medical licence they have to complete an internship. If there are no internships then they can't be registered in NSW or wherever!
I was originally Canadian but got into a US Medical School which is way easier. Happened to marry a US citizen so its too easy. I then went to California for residency and now live in Seattle.
I know for example the Medical Board of California in order to apply for a resideny PGY-1 if you're an IMG you need a licence from your home country. Then you can write USMLE Step 3 after US PGY 1.
J-1 I believe also requires a licence from your home country. However it's even more screwed up for Canadians as the Canadian Government does not approve letters of need for J-1's.
Recently CPSO made it easier to get a licence in Ontario for Australian graduate who have the FRACGP as the CFPC made their family medicine board equivalent to the FRACGP. However now it is impossible for Canadians to get into a residency in Australia to earn their FRACGP. Basically Canadians are screwed!!!

 

[shan564]

As usual these Canadians in Australian medical schools will be really screwed if they want to practice in US

Canadians have been doing residencies the US for a long time, whether they go to med school in Canada, Australia, Ireland, or the Caribbean. Most of them get a J1 visa... I'm not sure how they do it, but it seems to happen fairly often.

 

[pitman]

Canadians have been doing residencies the US for a long time, whether they go to med school in Canada, Australia, Ireland, or the Caribbean. Most of them get a J1 visa... I'm not sure how they do it, but it seems to happen fairly often.

Yep, they sure do.

 

[Daemos]

Seriously what is with the new people that JUST sign up to say going to Australia is a dead end?

 

[shan564]

Somebody is disgruntled and needs a place to vent. So, they sign up for the forum and start to complain. The person probably planned on staying in Australia despite the school's warnings that they weren't guaranteed an internship. Now that they're not getting one, they're pretending like there's no alternative and that they got screwed.

Going to the US is always an option. I can't imagine that Canadians would have trouble getting a visa when Pakistanis and Indians can get visas without any trouble.

If you go to med school in Oz, you used to have two options - go to the US or stay in Oz (or maybe go to Canada). Now, Canada and Oz are looking bleak, but you can still go to the US. That's the same as if you'd gone to med school in the US (or the Caribbean), except that there's still a small chance that we'll get internships in Oz.

 

[JPR22]

I think the last realistic option for canadians is the J1. It does really limit the specialties available. But, if you chose family med in the US, youll likely be able to go back to canada.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/hhr-rhs/strateg/postgrad-postdoc/cat_b-eng.php

 

[Shadowking]

Ok...This thread is scary.

I'm from Singapore and just received an offer from the UQ last Friday. I was over the moon about getting in. I am having trouble trying to decide whether to accept or not because I don't have the money for med school. I didn't think about it when applying...and now the problem is real enough that I can't go.

Anyway, it looks like even if I beg, borrow, steal, and sell my soul, I may not get to be a doctor in the end due to this internship problem. I have a degree in civil engineering, 8.5/9.0 on my IELTS and 2 yrs work experience after graduation. I thought abt applying for Oz PR and paying PR fees which I can just manage (8k per yr) but I don't know if they will give me the PR cos I already have an offer. Anyway, I would appreciate any advice.

 

[shan564]

If you graduate from an Australian med school, you can do an internship in Singapore and then go back to Australia for specialty training. I'm not sure about the details, but you should look into it.

You'll also have the option to take the USMLE and go to the US, where they don't discriminate based on whether or not you're a citizen/PR. A lot of residency programs there will sponsor your visa.

 

[MontereyMD]

ShadowKing you can get funding for medical school by joining the Singapore Defence Forces. They hopefully they would sponsor you or some other Singapore Government Organization.

 

[Shadowking]

ShadowKing you can get funding for medical school by joining the Singapore Defence Forces. They hopefully they would sponsor you or some other Singapore Government Organization.

Thanx for the reply...actually, I'm not singaporean...I'm a PR though. I am looking at a few loan schemes now. After looking around, I think that taking a loan is the only way to do this. Let me know if there r any other options that u know about...

Thanx again for the reply

 

[Ozdoc]

Seriously what is with the new people that JUST sign up to say going to Australia is a dead end?

Happy to answer any questions you have, I assume the above quote is about me. Unfortunately, with not all international students obtaining internships many of us are studying for board exams and doing ERAS applications. Which we thought we could put off for a year or so. So am quite busy at the present, but if you have any questions will answer them to the best of my ability.

As for USyd 4th years, majority of them got into US/Canadian schools and had well above 30's on MCATs and majority I have heard from have gotten 240 + on USMLE step 1. So maybe the first years are just slack! As far as getting into other countries, I only know about US as an IMG. I know that for European schools you must have an internship, which I have heard is true for some African countries, which is why this no internship thing is messing people up.

 

[jaketheory]

Ok...This thread is scary.

I'm from Singapore and just received an offer from the UQ last Friday. I was over the moon about getting in. I am having trouble trying to decide whether to accept or not because I don't have the money for med school. I didn't think about it when applying...and now the problem is real enough that I can't go.

Anyway, it looks like even if I beg, borrow, steal, and sell my soul, I may not get to be a doctor in the end due to this internship problem. I have a degree in civil engineering, 8.5/9.0 on my IELTS and 2 yrs work experience after graduation. I thought abt applying for Oz PR and paying PR fees which I can just manage (8k per yr) but I don't know if they will give me the PR cos I already have an offer. Anyway, I would appreciate any advice.

having an offer to UQ by itself would not make you ineligible. the real question is do you meet the eligibility requirements? the work experience will be over the last 2 years so if you got 2 years experience after graduation but dont have 12 months in the last 2 years, you will not meet the work experience requirement. if you apply while still working in the occupation you are claiming, it isnt a big deal; however, in signing the application you agree to keep the department up to date with changes in your circumstances. this would include moving to Aus, and considering it is the immigration department, they will uncover that you are on a student visa. i cant say for sure if they would be able to discover what you are studying or not. if they could it wouldnt make too much sense for them to give you a visa assuming you would be working in your claimed occupation when it is obvious that you will not.

if circumstance change before you visa app is processed and you dont update your app, your visa is later granted, and then the dept discovers your visa app info was not accurate at the time of processing, they have the authority to cancel your visa. on the other hand, if your circumstances change after your visa is granted you dont have to notify them of any changes; you already have the visa. you do still have to obide by the conditions of your visa, but working in your claimed occupation will not be a one of those conditions. i think the only condition mine had was that i dont get married before i first enter aus.

 

[cosycatus]

Thanx for the reply...actually, I'm not singaporean...I'm a PR though. I am looking at a few loan schemes now. After looking around, I think that taking a loan is the only way to do this. Let me know if there r any other options that u know about...

Thanx again for the reply

i dunno what you are thinking. You previous threads says you have enough $$ to pay for the 8K/yr type of school fees. So i assume u have about 40k in auzzie dollars??

1. UQ is really easy to get into as an international. Don't get too excited about it.

2. Anyway if u have only 40K, there is no way for u to take any loans ( or to repay it after wards). Each year at UQ cost 45K with a 5% annual increment. Sch fees alone is about 210K over 4 years.

3. Living expenses? About 120/pw for rent. Each year requires about 40 weeks = 5K rent = 20K over 4 years

4. food? Give it 10K over 4 years..

6. We haven not thrown in the axillaries like student health cover, textbooks, transport, the watever crap fees etc. And yeah , the internet u take for granted back home cost a bomb there too ...

5. There u have it...250KAUSD. In sing dollars terms that's 310K. Assuming u have 50K singapore. where in the world are u going to loan 260K?

6. Assuming tat papa mana somehow can lend/give u 100K. You still have to loan 160K from the bank.Assuming u can load that amt somehow...the interest currently stands at 5% for education loans...typical payment period is about 5 years. total amount u have to pay is 3.3K PER MONTH. As a intern with one of the teaching hospital, ur monthly salary is 2.5K , with shift allowance , maybe it hits 3.2K..how are you going to pay back?? You have to work at least 3 years to get a M.Med in family med before u can practice as a private GP ( fastest route to a higher salary) . So for 4 years, u have to pay off a loan that you cannot afford off until it becomes easier ( not by a lot, u probably dun have capital to set up ur own practice, so u prob join a GP gp which pays about 8K per mth..)
What if there is no papa mama to lend a hand?? The other opportunity cost is that for the next 8 years of ur life, you are foregoing ur current salary as u struggle to pay off ur loans. How many 8 years do u have???

7. Work in australia? Well, internationals can do only 20 hours per week. If u earn more than 6K, u got to pay tax. Besides, u probably dun have time to do much work. Into your clinical years, u will mug all day long.

8. Think carefully first before jumping in. I know it's exciting to get an offer but, bear in mind, it's not that hard for for internationals to get an offer, and the feasibility of actually being able to finish school. Education is not one of auzzie biggest earners for nothing.

I suggest u work for 1-2 more years, earn some $$ on the side line by tuition ,teach at ploys or watever... scrap together another 50-80K...rework your sums such that you pay about 1-1.5K max as a loan repayment....and consider flinders as well, it's cheaper by about 20K over 4 years..

9. Oh yes, as a reminder, u applied as a international. If during ur study you somehow get ur PR, u will lose ur place. The school doesn't not received any reimbursement from the gov for internationals so out you will go...The gov will not dish out additional $$ for you. Not every country let every student study cheap like in singapore...

 

[redshifteffect]

The monthly salary of an intern at any hospital is more then 2.5k/month after rostered overtime is included.

 

[Shadowking]

i dunno what you are thinking. You previous threads says you have enough $$ to pay for the 8K/yr type of school fees. So i assume u have about 40k in auzzie dollars??

1. UQ is really easy to get into as an international. Don't get too excited about it.

2. Anyway if u have only 40K, there is no way for u to take any loans ( or to repay it after wards). Each year at UQ cost 45K with a 5% annual increment. Sch fees alone is about 210K over 4 years.

3. Living expenses? About 120/pw for rent. Each year requires about 40 weeks = 5K rent = 20K over 4 years

4. food? Give it 10K over 4 years..

6. We haven not thrown in the axillaries like student health cover, textbooks, transport, the watever crap fees etc. And yeah , the internet u take for granted back home cost a bomb there too ...

5. There u have it...250KAUSD. In sing dollars terms that's 310K. Assuming u have 50K singapore. where in the world are u going to loan 260K?

6. Assuming tat papa mana somehow can lend/give u 100K. You still have to loan 160K from the bank.Assuming u can load that amt somehow...the interest currently stands at 5% for education loans...typical payment period is about 5 years. total amount u have to pay is 3.3K PER MONTH. As a intern with one of the teaching hospital, ur monthly salary is 2.5K , with shift allowance , maybe it hits 3.2K..how are you going to pay back?? You have to work at least 3 years to get a M.Med in family med before u can practice as a private GP ( fastest route to a higher salary) . So for 4 years, u have to pay off a loan that you cannot afford off until it becomes easier ( not by a lot, u probably dun have capital to set up ur own practice, so u prob join a GP gp which pays about 8K per mth..)
What if there is no papa mama to lend a hand?? The other opportunity cost is that for the next 8 years of ur life, you are foregoing ur current salary as u struggle to pay off ur loans. How many 8 years do u have???

7. Work in australia? Well, internationals can do only 20 hours per week. If u earn more than 6K, u got to pay tax. Besides, u probably dun have time to do much work. Into your clinical years, u will mug all day long.

8. Think carefully first before jumping in. I know it's exciting to get an offer but, bear in mind, it's not that hard for for internationals to get an offer, and the feasibility of actually being able to finish school. Education is not one of auzzie biggest earners for nothing.

I suggest u work for 1-2 more years, earn some $$ on the side line by tuition ,teach at ploys or watever... scrap together another 50-80K...rework your sums such that you pay about 1-1.5K max as a loan repayment....and consider flinders as well, it's cheaper by about 20K over 4 years..

9. Oh yes, as a reminder, u applied as a international. If during ur study you somehow get ur PR, u will lose ur place. The school doesn't not received any reimbursement from the gov for internationals so out you will go...The gov will not dish out additional $$ for you. Not every country let every student study cheap like in singapore...

Thanks to both Jaketheory and cosycatus (especially)....Your answers were very informative and brutally honest!...I needed that.

Your assumptions abt my financial status as well as the possible outcomes if I accept the offer are absolutely correct. cosycatus has described my situation exactly!

I have considered loans, scholarships, bursaries, sponsors and self funded. I have discussed this with many people including my parents and considered many options.

1. I think I've heard that before - UQ seems easy to get in...I also got an interview for Monash next month. I'm not sure whether to go...considering that I don't have the money to pay for it even if I get in. Still thinking abt it.

2. Tuition fees 210k - Yeah...that's the killer

3. Living expenses 20k - correct

4. Food 10k - correct

5. With other stuff Total of 310k - Is corect....and just goes to show how expensive this course is.

6. 3.3k for loans per month is about right - Paying that amount every month for 8 years will be very difficult. Especially since family will be affected badly. It doesn't help that Medicine is a very demanding course on time and commitment either.

7. I was thinking that I might work in Aus - But I've heard too many people telling me that it's not a real option for someone studying medicine. So that is out.

8. I have decided will take your suggestion to work here for the next 1 year and see what happens. You are not the first person to suggest that....By the way, I applied to Flinders...got rejected.

9. I agree that the Aus government won't help out international students. SG gov't is good that way. I literally studied for free at NUS.

Actually, my situation in singapore is good. I have a comfortable life. My salary is good and I have some good opportunities to do well in my current industry. It is ironic that if I do medicine, I will give up all of this for the next 8 years at least.

Of course the driving factor for medicine is very different from any other profession. I guess that's why I re-applied after finishing my first degree. I won't make any hasty decisions...and give it one more year before I make a final decision. Making this decision is as good as choosing a life. 1 more year to evaluate my options and decide seems fair.

Thanks for the reality check guys...I appreciate the time and effort put into your replies to me.

 

[theunraveler]

...............

 

[cosycatus]

Oh yea, i was considering doing med at auzzie, hence really dig up all the info. The huge outlay hit me too... I've contacted other Singaporean folks who are currently in UQ, well most of them have papa mama scholarship..so envious.

1. Monash is really backwater. It's 160KM away from melbourne in a small little town. I googled map it and i think it's small. Any town in Singapore easily oversize it and i am already bored here. I can't image travelling 160KB during weekend to go to melbourne to chill out. You have to live and study there for 4 years... Monash is not easy to get in since they take <20 internationals per year. Anyway, just go to the interview for experience.
I really like Flinders and suggest u try again.. It's cheaper, the smaller class sizes means better interaction and learning, and it's sitting right next to a hospital.

2. If you really want to do med, it can be done cheaper with IMU or Monash Malaysia.

IMU has a twinning program that lets u do 2 years studies in KL ( which should be home ground for you...somehow i think u are from malaysia? ) and after that match u with it's sisters uni all over the world. Only Dundee and UQ lets u finish the course in 2 years, the rest of the other uni requires another 3-3.5 years. Of course, getting into the sisters uni is on a competitive basis, so i reckon a lot of of pple will try for Dundee and UQ.
Overall the fees will be cheaper.( can't remember the figure though...)
BUT the quality of education is not so good ...as reverted by an online acquaintance.

Monash Malaysia has a 5 year undergrad program. It's just accredited with Australian Medical Council recently, so it might be recognised by Singapore medical council too. You might want to check to confirm.
You study in KL campus for 2 years and spend 3 clinical years at Sultan Johor hospital which is 20 mins away from the causeway.
If i am not wrong, total cost is about 220K..which is not so bad if you ask me.

I guess u are 25-26 this year? One other point to really consider is that each year u delay means a lower and lower chance of getting into a specialty. By the time u graduate and finish internship year , u are about early 30ies which is not a favorable age to get into a good training program ( Singapore hospital prefer 35 and below and you dun get into a specialty straight away unless u are damn good, most of the time, u wait for a few years, by which time, u are above the 35 year limit)

so...most likely u'll end up as a GP which dun give fantastic pay. FYI, ( don't u love the internet? ) , a survey of a few hundred local GPs in private practice done in 2006 listed the average profit ( net of rent , manpower , cost price of medicine ) as 10K and median profit of about 13K. Surprisingly, this was the same as a survey done in 1997, meaning pay for private GP actually went down if u consider inflation. With influx of foreign docs into Singapore, i don't think the situation will change.

So there u have way to do a cost breakeven analysis for wat you want to do.
You study for 4 years, giving up ur salary ( $4-5 K/pm ) + pay 300K for the course= $500K.

For the next 4 years while u do internship + get a M.MEd in family med before going private, ur pay ranges about 2.5K in intern year to about 5K as a medical officer while if u stay in ur job, assuming 2 promotion/job change that gives 10% increment and a 7% annual increment, ur nett loss is about 170K from salary alone from your 5th to 8th year.

With the 500K from the study + 170K from the training period, total lost = 670K

Now think about this huge sum of money and consider if u really want to do med and in all possibility end up practicing as a GP ( oh yes, do read up on what stuff GP do, it's not terribly exciting, it's not like Grey's anatomy, ER, House or Scrubbs. Mostly coughs/flu, high blood pressure, diabetics etc...yawns...lol)
.

If you still do, go for it..
just my 2 cents.

 

[theunraveler]

Get Australian PR first then do medicine?

 

[JanikeyDoc]

You just made that up. There are a few reasons why residencies are difficult for IMGs:

1. Visa issues.
2. Lack of American rec letters.
3. Poor English/interview skills.

Those issues aren't true for Aussie grads who did a couple of rotations in the US. If you look at average USMLE scores by specialty, they're about the same for IMGs and locals.

You make it sound as if Australian graduates have some special treatment in the States. This is far from the truth. The reality is that students from LCME accredited schools will always have an advantage over IMGs. With more US graduates and fewer residencies, US residency directors are only going to become more biased. It would not make any sense for them to recruit foreign MDs when they have local applicants. This rule applies for Australia as well and just about any country. Want to work in a particular nation, go to medical school there. The only non US schools that have LCME accreditation are those in Canada.

I do think Australian schools are excellent in my view but the fact is that the system in just about every country is biased towards locals. Schools in Western Europe, Australia, and New Zealand offer a top class education but the fact is that the system in America is biased towards locals.

Look up IMG match rates for US citizens, they generally won't have a deficiency in all three criteria you have mentioned. Its around 58 percent, that is a big difference from over 90 percent for US MD programs.

 

[shan564]

You make it sound as if Australian graduates have some special treatment in the States. This is far from the truth. The reality is that students from LCME accredited schools will always have an advantage over IMGs. With more US graduates and fewer residencies, US residency directors are only going to become more biased. It would not make any sense for them to recruit foreign MDs when they have local applicants. This rule applies for Australia as well and just about any country. Want to work in a particular nation, go to medical school there. The only non US schools that have LCME accreditation are those in Canada.

Again, nobody said that Australian schools will be just as good as US schools for getting into the US. It seems like you feel the need to repeatedly mention the same point. The purpose of the post was just to say that most Australian grads have a legitimate shot at getting into the US - more so than what you can say about grads from India or China or elsewhere.

Look up IMG match rates for US citizens, they generally won't have a deficiency in all three criteria you have mentioned. Its around 58 percent, that is a big difference from over 90 percent for US MD programs.

A lot of that discrepancy can be explained by the fact that most US-citizen IMGs are people who couldn't get into med school in the US - in short, we're subpar students.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

You make it sound as if Australian graduates have some special treatment in the States. This is far from the truth. The reality is that students from LCME accredited schools will always have an advantage over IMGs. With more US graduates and fewer residencies, US residency directors are only going to become more biased. It would not make any sense for them to recruit foreign MDs when they have local applicants. This rule applies for Australia as well and just about any country. Want to work in a particular nation, go to medical school there. The only non US schools that have LCME accreditation are those in Canada.

Again, nobody said that Australian schools will be just as good as US schools for getting into the US. It seems like you feel the need to repeatedly mention the same point. The purpose of the post was just to say that most Australian grads have a legitimate shot at getting into the US - more so than what you can say about grads from India or China or elsewhere.


A lot of that discrepancy can be explained by the fact that most US-citizen IMGs are people who couldn't get into med school in the US - in short, we're subpar students.

A large percent of the North Americans who go to Australian schools are those who could not get admission to American or Canadian schools. Oh and many American schools allow you to have some electives in Australia and a number of other countries. If you do not believe me that IMGs in general do worse than American graduates, check out the NRMP stats for yourself.

I know a lot of people who did not get into North American schools try out for medical schools in other first world countries like Britain, Ireland, Israel, Germany, etc. These people assume that because they go to these schools that they will be guaranteed a residency match. Its not true.

Of the true international schools I have seen only schools in Israel keep detailed records of how their graduates have fared with residencies in the US. They actually will provide applicants with a match list.

The OP was citing a genuine concern about international students in Australian medical schools. Someone who is about to spend a large sum of money for a foreign degree should be well informed about the investment in money and time that they about to undertake.

 

[shan564]

These people assume that because they go to these schools that they will be guaranteed a residency match.

That's their own fault. Any idiot should know that nobody is guaranteed a match, especially international graduates.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

Well look at it this way, local Australian students will pretty much get some kind of postgraduate training program, maybe not something that they want but they will probably get it somewhere considering increasing student numbers. In the US its pretty much a given if you can get into a US medical school, MD or DO, that you will find some kind of training. In many other countries such as EU countries medical school admission is fairly open. Australia is like North America in that applicants go through a very competitive admissions process in order to get a seat in medical school.

 

[shan564]

We get it. If we'd gotten into a US med school, most of us would have gone there. But we didn't, so we didn't. Now we're here, and our biggest hurdle is ourselves. Most of the time, if a student in Australia puts the effort into studying for the USMLE and doing electives in the US, then they'll get a residency in the US. Of course, there's no guarantee, but we didn't really have much of a choice.

 

[Alphonsine]

Well look at it this way, local Australian students will pretty much get some kind of postgraduate training program, maybe not something that they want but they will probably get it somewhere considering increasing student numbers. In the US its pretty much a given if you can get into a US medical school, MD or DO, that you will find some kind of training. In many other countries such as EU countries medical school admission is fairly open. Australia is like North America in that applicants go through a very competitive admissions process in order to get a seat in medical school.

Janikey, why come here to spread the same messages in every single post?

DO are not medical school. You will be forever tagged with DO for the rest of your life. I know 2 DO who are both family doctors and working in rural communities. Australian medical schools have produced many famous medical doctors - many of whom are currently practicing in the USA. I doubt medical program directors are so dumb that they don't know the different between a DO program and a USyd medical school graduate. Most of them are smart, well educated, well traveled, and not bigoted, etc..

I'm not saying you're guaranteed a spot anywhere after you graduate, but opportunities for going to NZ and Australia do remain open. Worse come to worse, you can work for 2 years afterwards to get your PR and then apply for internship. Australian lab research pays very well, over $60,000 a year. You'll probably be in a major city because that's where the universities are.

I have a friend who goes to Stanford medical school and I compared curriculum to his and they're about the same. Even our blocks are covered at the same time (i.e. cardiology and respiratory in the 1st year; neuroscience in the 2nd year). We even use the same text books. He's a year ahead of me so I ask him stuff all the time.

 

[theologian]

DO are not medical school. You will be forever tagged with DO for the rest of your life.

Of course DO school is medial school. It's not like they're learning about potions and heading out to practice in American hospitals thereafter. Needless to say, there are subtle differences (ie OMM), but they are learning medicine to the same respect and level that MD's are.
"Forever Tagged" a DO may be a great thing in the US: On a professional level, they are respected equals.

And what do you mean as "Australian lab research"? as an MD after medical school/residency? I'm sure the dollar amount varies depending on the field of study but as an MD I assumed you'd be (equivalent to) a post-doc and in the states they do make around that much.

 

[Alphonsine]

"Forever Tagged" a DO may be a great thing in the US: On a professional level, they are respected equals.

And you know this because...???

And no, you don't need an MBBS or a PhD or even an MSc or and MD to get a $60,000 Aussie lab research job. Because that's how much they pay school secretaries, lab technicians with undergraduate/college degrees, some random job really, etc...Pay in Australia for the "average" person is much higher. Most of my med school friends working in research party time right now get paid $30 an hour, which isn't bad.

 

[Shadowking]

Oh yea, i was considering doing med at auzzie, hence really dig up all the info. The huge outlay hit me too... I've contacted other Singaporean folks who are currently in UQ, well most of them have papa mama scholarship..so envious.

I agree...actually, the way I see it, there are no scholarships for medicine; loans are not sufficient, and also a burden to pay back. So it looks like I need some sort of sponsorship, otherwise I'm out of options.

Thanks for the tip about IMU and Monash M'sia. This is the first time I'm hearing about this. I'm not M'sian...but I am Singaporean PR...so I'm quite comfortable with this region. I'll get more information from the net abt this.

I did consider the undergrad program of these universities. But didn't apply for it cos I already have my degree. Anyway I'm not sure if we are aeligible to apply for the undergrad if we already have a degree. I'm not sure....

Regarding my age, I'm 25 this yr. I didn't know that s'pore hospital prefer 35 and below. hmmm...if I was going into medicine, I was definitely going into a specialty. I am confident I can do well in medicine, but I guess my chances of getting into a specialty is much lower. It will be a shame if I am not able to specialize after finishing. Anyway, it doesn't have to be S'pore. I'll check up on other countries abt age limits for specialties.

I agree with your maths abt the costs, but it would have cost the same even if I did this straight after school. The course would have been 5 or 6 yrs and instead of my salary subsidising some of the costs, my parents would have had to pay all of it, putting them in an even worse position. If parents can't afford it then, and still can't afford it now, there's no difference except for the age factor. Anyway I've heard that mature students make better doctors and are more successful in their careers. It may be that mature doctors also earn more than the younger doctors because of their commitment and other work experience (I don't think the figures differenciate between grad entry doctors and undergrad doctors). That's just my theory.

Of course the funding will have to be in some form scholarship, bursary or sponsorship. I don't really want to take a loan out for this...and my parents can't afford this. If I can find the funding, I am fairly confident that I can do well and get into a specialty (maybe not s'pore - cos it's always too competitive). My plan is to look out for options until the last day to reply to UQ. After that, I will accept it and get on with life...

Btw...u r singaporean right? R u in med school already? Graduated? Let me know....and thanks for the detailed reply again!

 

[earmuff]

And you know this because...???

There are DO's everywhere in American residencies and clinical practice.

Trust me, it's easier to get a competitive residency coming out of DO school than coming from Oz.

 

[Alphonsine]

There are DO's everywhere in American residencies and clinical practice.

Trust me, it's easier to get a competitive residency coming out of DO school than coming from Oz.

No. Why should we trust you? Do you have credible evidence to back yourself up? Not to mention, there are not that many Aussie med students in the USA as opposed to DO schools. Aussie medical schools only started accepting international students recently (aka 2003 ish for UQ/USyd) and the first few intakes were very small.

 

[shan564]

If you're working at a hospital or a clinic, most of your staff and patients won't even know whether you're an MD or a DO. My mom is a health administrator, and I remember her telling me once that she didn't realize how many DOs worked at her clinic until she went through some complicated payroll processing... in fact, it's about 25% of the doctors there, and none of the staff know the difference.

DOs also have a higher match rate than international graduates. In some specialties (i.e. hand surgery), you're actually better off doing a DO than an MD.

Still, there are some specialties that you can't enter as a DO (can't remember which ones). Also, the primary reason why I decided not to do a DO is because I don't plan on devoting my entire life to day-to-day clinical practice. If you go into research or writing, your title starts to matter. Personally, I do some freelance writing in my spare time... and as a writer, it's much easier to sell a book if the author's name has "MD" at the end of it.

 

[cosycatus]

I agree...actually, the way I see it, there are no scholarships for medicine; loans are not sufficient, and also a burden to pay back. So it looks like I need some sort of sponsorship, otherwise I'm out of options.

Thanks for the tip about IMU and Monash M'sia. This is the first time I'm hearing about this. I'm not M'sian...but I am Singaporean PR...so I'm quite comfortable with this region. I'll get more information from the net abt this.

I did consider the undergrad program of these universities. But didn't apply for it cos I already have my degree. Anyway I'm not sure if we are aeligible to apply for the undergrad if we already have a degree. I'm not sure....

Regarding my age, I'm 25 this yr. I didn't know that s'pore hospital prefer 35 and below. hmmm...if I was going into medicine, I was definitely going into a specialty. I am confident I can do well in medicine, but I guess my chances of getting into a specialty is much lower. It will be a shame if I am not able to specialize after finishing. Anyway, it doesn't have to be S'pore. I'll check up on other countries abt age limits for specialties.

I agree with your maths abt the costs, but it would have cost the same even if I did this straight after school. The course would have been 5 or 6 yrs and instead of my salary subsidising some of the costs, my parents would have had to pay all of it, putting them in an even worse position. If parents can't afford it then, and still can't afford it now, there's no difference except for the age factor. Anyway I've heard that mature students make better doctors and are more successful in their careers. It may be that mature doctors also earn more than the younger doctors because of their commitment and other work experience (I don't think the figures differenciate between grad entry doctors and undergrad doctors). That's just my theory.

Of course the funding will have to be in some form scholarship, bursary or sponsorship. I don't really want to take a loan out for this...and my parents can't afford this. If I can find the funding, I am fairly confident that I can do well and get into a specialty (maybe not s'pore - cos it's always too competitive). My plan is to look out for options until the last day to reply to UQ. After that, I will accept it and get on with life...

Btw...u r singaporean right? R u in med school already? Graduated? Let me know....and thanks for the detailed reply again!

Ya, i'm singaporean. Nope, practicing engineer right now. Been mucking around for a few years , haven't really started applying to any med schools yet + my currently salary is really comfortable. But the more i stay in my job, the more i know that i dun like to do it for the rest of my life.. Will probably target 2011 or 2012 entry.

Lol, for me, i've though long about starting med late...and my thinking is that i really want to do general med. Know a bit about everything is more my cup of tea than know everything about something. I really dun want to look at a heart, some part of the GI, or the brain for the next 30 years .....
Haha, be a HDB GP earning 10K a month is really more favorable to what i am doing now thought my current job is very likely to pay more over the next 30 years...

dun give up..you are 25, still quite young. If you want to do something, there are ways to get it done.

 

[theunraveler]

Ya, i'm singaporean. Nope, practicing engineer right now. Been mucking around for a few years , haven't really started applying to any med schools yet + my currently salary is really comfortable. But the more i stay in my job, the more i know that i dun like to do it for the rest of my life.. Will probably target 2011 or 2012 entry.

Lol, for me, i've though long about starting med late...and my thinking is that i really want to do general med. Know a bit about everything is more my cup of tea than know everything about something. I really dun want to look at a heart, some part of the GI, or the brain for the next 30 years .....
Haha, be a HDB GP earning 10K a month is really more favorable to what i am doing now thought my current job is very likely to pay more over the next 30 years...

dun give up..you are 25, still quite young. If you want to do something, there are ways to get it done.

Dun mind me asking how old will you be when you start medicine?

 

[earmuff]

No. Why should we trust you? Do you have credible evidence to back yourself up? Not to mention, there are not that many Aussie med students in the USA as opposed to DO schools. Aussie medical schools only started accepting international students recently (aka 2003 ish for UQ/USyd) and the first few intakes were very small.

Believe what you want. Good luck in the match.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

Janikey, why come here to spread the same messages in every single post?

DO are not medical school. You will be forever tagged with DO for the rest of your life. I know 2 DO who are both family doctors and working in rural communities. Australian medical schools have produced many famous medical doctors - many of whom are currently practicing in the USA. I doubt medical program directors are so dumb that they don't know the different between a DO program and a USyd medical school graduate. Most of them are smart, well educated, well traveled, and not bigoted, etc..

I'm not saying you're guaranteed a spot anywhere after you graduate, but opportunities for going to NZ and Australia do remain open. Worse come to worse, you can work for 2 years afterwards to get your PR and then apply for internship. Australian lab research pays very well, over $60,000 a year. You'll probably be in a major city because that's where the universities are.

I have a friend who goes to Stanford medical school and I compared curriculum to his and they're about the same. Even our blocks are covered at the same time (i.e. cardiology and respiratory in the 1st year; neuroscience in the 2nd year). We even use the same text books. He's a year ahead of me so I ask him stuff all the time.

Residency directors in the US may or may not be bigoted but its a fact that they are biased towards US educated doctors. If you are so determined to work in North America you are doing yourself a disservice by attending a foreign school.