Real Talk Money Talk

[Stillmaticbeat]

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Hey Guys,

As a senior college student who recently applied this cycle and was accepted to a few dental schools I just wanted to help the other pre-dents on this site with some basic information that I thought were crucial in my acceptances and just some thought on this great field. Some of my thoughts and comments will be random but just stick with me. Some of you guys may not completely agree with my opinions but I believe them to be at least 70% true hahaha.

This is not the order of importance just stuff that came as I typed:

1. For those of you applying next cycle, apply AS EARLY as possible with the strongest application as possible

2. DAT and GPA scores are the most important factors for admission. This is what gets you the interviews and nothing can really substitute for it, although there are many outliers who buck this trend.

3. After you've worked your butt off in college and get that good GPA and DAT, you'll be applying and getting interviews. CONSTANTLY try to force a dialogue with the deans and professors. I will be honest here and say that I emailed/called/thought about the schools I wanted to go the most constantly and I think the schools got the point that a) I AM INTERESTED b) I AM FOR REAL. These people have to deal with thousands of applications and if you can somehow get your name to stick in their heads, you're golden.

4. Send a written thank you letter after your interview and be professional at your interviews. The WHOLE DAY is the interview not the short 30 minute section 1 on 1.

5. THIS MAY BE THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT: I know we like to throw dollar numbers around here in SDN and some people have some crazy ideas about how much dentists make. I'll post some numbers which I've come to think are pretty accurate according to where I live and I've also kept the ADA and other specialty numbers in mind

Most general dentists straight out of school will make around 90k, obviously they're not owning their own practice, they are employees. Owners of practices in my area (upstate new york), tend to make around 200-400k a year. Obv there are ppl that make lower or higher. But id say this is pretty avg.

As I'm interested in pedo and OS I've got some numbers for these specialties
PEDO - their society puts their avg at 317k
OS - their society puts their avg at 370k

Now, In my area, i know a pedo that makes ~600k and an OS that makes about 1 million. These are optimized and really efficient practices that have been serving my community for a long time and fill a great niche. The PEDO is one of about 10 in the area.

SO TO THE MAIN POINT:
most of us are going to be general dentists, making less than 200k for a long time. Primarily b/c we will have HUGE debt. I feel as though a lot of people on here don't quite understand what 300k debt is like. Its like paying mortage on a house. You WILL NOT pay this debt off in 10 years. Unless you're really lucky and make some great investments. Please pick your school wisely. State schools are a great choice. ALL dental schools are great.

This has turned into a rant about how expensive our schooling is in this country and it's something I've thought about a lot. I just feel like a lot of students have unrealistic expectations about our field and how much debt 300k really is. I can't fathom it either. If you go to a really expensive school, such as NYU, you may be forced to do things that you otherwise wouldn't want to do but the weight of the loans will force you to.

EXAMPLE:
I know a person who went to UPENN dental, wanted to specialize but couldn't and was forced to work her butt off in a dental mill trying to pay off her massive loans. B/C of her loans, she couldn't and didn't want to take another loan out to build her own practice. Thats another thing ppl don't quite understand. If you go to a less expensive school you MAY be able to start up faster.

She wanted to work with the indigent but 350k in loans wouldn't let her do that. Shes working her butt off to pay it off so she can serve the people who really need dental care. She tells me all the time to go to the cheapest school possible and that if she had to do it over she'd go to a state school.

Thanks guys.

 

[Chesnok]

Pretty decent points.

 

[phungy]

Which D-schools did you get accepted to?

 

[Contach]

EXAMPLE:
I know a person who went to UPENN dental, wanted to specialize but couldn't and was forced to work her butt off in a dental mill trying to pay off her massive loans. B/C of her loans, she couldn't and didn't want to take another loan out to build her own practice. Thats another thing ppl don't quite understand. If you go to a less expensive school you MAY be able to start up faster.

She wanted to work with the indigent but 350k in loans wouldn't let her do that. Shes working her butt off to pay it off so she can serve the people who really need dental care. She tells me all the time to go to the cheapest school possible and that if she had to do it over she'd go to a state school.
Thanks guys.

Aren't there some great subsidized programs in the USA that allow dentists to serve underserved/poor populations in return for a salary + 1/3 of your loans paid off? This girl doesn't sound too smart... She could have killed 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[Jimmy Choo]

2. Dat and gpa scores are the most important factors for admission. This is what gets you the interviews and nothing can really substitute for it, although there are many outliers who buck this trend.

+10000000

 

[predentn]

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291021.htm

 

[Dental Monst3r]

haha, I am so bookmarking this page 😀

thanks

 

[kleenex101]

You make really good points about the 300K debt that a lot of students will have. Many younger students don't realize that taking out loans during school will begin taking interest as soon as it is taken out. So a 300k education at graduation day looks more like 350K. If you use any website for loan repayments, you will see that a 350k repayment program for 10 years requires a 3-4k payment per month. Most people will be prolonging their loan repayment to something like 30 years and taking it easy for the first few years and then pay it off significantly more when private practice begins. On the 30 year plan, you are paying off most of the interest that is gathering up and paying a relatively small percentage of the actual principle balance per year.

Join the military!

 

[Stillmaticbeat]

I got into Stony and Tufts.
I had a connection at UPENN and I was assured I would have gotten in there if I applied... hahaha
I got interviews at UCLA, BU, Buffalo, NYU but pulled out of those 4 after I got into Stonybrook after pre-dec 1 interview (dream come true).
I applied to 8 schools, got rejected from UCSF and UCONN and I never heard back from Columbia (which I thought was odd).

 

[Stillmaticbeat]

It really hurt to pull out of the UCLA interview. I almost cried. It's my dream to live in CALI. But 75k 1st year for out of state and 65k a year after that would be really irresponsible. The admissions coordinator naomi told me that those numbers would only increase every year. Sometimes it hurts to man up. They don't give interviews to out of staters, I had to beg for that interview and tout my research publication!

 

[NyCzPeter]

Sup homeboy. Excellent points.

 

[Kokugeka Shiro]

most of us... making less than 200k

You're right about that. When we're all government employees working for a newfound National Health Service in 10 years, 200k will be a pipe dream.

 

[cobalt31]

It really hurt to pull out of the UCLA interview. I almost cried. It's my dream to live in CALI. But 75k 1st year for out of state and 65k a year after that would be really irresponsible. The admissions coordinator naomi told me that those numbers would only increase every year. Sometimes it hurts to man up. They don't give interviews to out of staters, I had to beg for that interview and tout my research publication!

Stillmaticbeat, i hear you. giving up my acceptance at UCSF as an out of stater was unbelievably hard for me, too, because cali and SF are awesome. but the price was just too ridiculous.

i think we made the right choice though 😎

 

[Erhatstil]

You're right about that. When we're all government employees working for a newfound National Health Service in 10 years, 200k will be a pipe dream.

hopefully we won't have to wait that long

 

[gryffindor]

SO TO THE MAIN POINT:
most of us are going to be general dentists, making less than 200k for a long time. Primarily b/c we will have HUGE debt. I feel as though a lot of people on here don't quite understand what 300k debt is like. Its like paying mortage on a house. You WILL NOT pay this debt off in 10 years. Unless you're really lucky and make some great investments. Please pick your school wisely. State schools are a great choice. ALL dental schools are great.

This has turned into a rant about how expensive our schooling is in this country and it's something I've thought about a lot. I just feel like a lot of students have unrealistic expectations about our field and how much debt 300k really is. I can't fathom it either. If you go to a really expensive school, such as NYU, you may be forced to do things that you otherwise wouldn't want to do but the weight of the loans will force you to.

EXAMPLE:
I know a person who went to UPENN dental, wanted to specialize but couldn't and was forced to work her butt off in a dental mill trying to pay off her massive loans. B/C of her loans, she couldn't and didn't want to take another loan out to build her own practice. Thats another thing ppl don't quite understand. If you go to a less expensive school you MAY be able to start up faster.

She wanted to work with the indigent but 350k in loans wouldn't let her do that. Shes working her butt off to pay it off so she can serve the people who really need dental care. She tells me all the time to go to the cheapest school possible and that if she had to do it over she'd go to a state school.

Thanks guys.

Wow, a predent who understands debt.

$350K DDS loan
$200K specialty loan (not required)
$350K practice loan
$200K home mortgage b/c the wife is tired of living in an apartment (the mortgage is way higher in some parts of the country)

Total = 900K to $1.1 million and you don't even have any income until someone actually walks into the practice.

 

[Stillmaticbeat]

Haha I like that loan money is not lottery money!

 

[Stillmaticbeat]

just another thing i'd like to add.

an oral surgeon who i will not name is a family friend of ours, lives in NJ/NYC area. He has a BOMBASS practice. makes millions of dollars a year, I don't know for sure but at least 2. He owns 2 offices and the property, really optimized and efficient. And he OWNS (yeah thats what he said) ~2 general dentists at any particular time as associates.

he told my family this (i'll paraphrase): It's really easy to own a dentist in the metropolitan areas and only pay them 100k b/c they have no other option. They have huge debt from dental school and can't afford to open their own practice, in fact, they are happy with 100k. His practice is an example of vertical integration i guess. He implants everything /w an associate OS and then has his gp's crown/restore everything. GENIUS, a true businessman.

This sounds extreme but if you think about it. It's sadly kind of true. Most business owners are looking to make money off the backs of the employees. What option do these gp's have?

All I know this, I'm not going to be OWNED by anybody. hahaha.

 

[eventualOMFS]

just another thing i'd like to add.

an oral surgeon who i will not name is a family friend of ours, lives in NJ/NYC area. He has a BOMBASS practice. makes millions of dollars a year, I don't know for sure but at least 2. He owns 2 offices and the property, really optimized and efficient. And he OWNS (yeah thats what he said) ~2 general dentists at any particular time as associates.

he told my family this (i'll paraphrase): It's really easy to own a dentist in the metropolitan areas and only pay them 100k b/c they have no other option. They have huge debt from dental school and can't afford to open their own practice, in fact, they are happy with 100k. His practice is an example of vertical integration i guess. He implants everything /w an associate OS and then has his gp's crown/restore everything. GENIUS, a true businessman.

This sounds extreme but if you think about it. It's sadly kind of true. Most business owners are looking to make money off the backs of the employees. What option do these gp's have?

All I know this, I'm not going to be OWNED by anybody. hahaha.

You said that this OMFS "implants everything w/ an associate OS"....what does that mean? Is he using an associate to place implants alongside him? If so, that seems like a waste of money.

I agree that having a GP/prosth to do restorative work with implants is a great way to make OS practice production skyrocket.

 

[Stillmaticbeat]

There is one owner OS and he has an associate OS who he will never make partner. In the cities, there are just too many specialists and especially gps'. supply and demand. So there are 2 OS's in the practice (him and his associate) and each have their own gp's.

 

[Stillmaticbeat]

I got a few ims about what I plan on doing after dental school and I just have to say that I have absolutely no idea. I want to keep my options open. I am looking forward to being a dentist, I don't think I've been this excited about something in a long time. I also love kids so maybe pediatric will be an option for me. For a long time, I've been interested in treating special needs children/adults.

Shadowing physicians my whole life I've seen some messed up care regarding special needs just because people don't know what to do /w them, esp in the OR. In one instance, I saw this ******ed anesthesiologist give this kid /w down syndrome ridiculous amounts of versed to knock him out. The ENT doing the surgery asked, "is this normal?" He didn't really think much of it though, and neither did I at the time b/c we both though the anes is competent and he was supposed to know what he's doing (he's taking all the liability anyway). Only afterwards did I find out that most anesthesiologists would not have done that. I'm not hatin on anesthesiologists though, I have a few of them in my family!

So yeah, I think there's a huge need in that minority population of special needs patients. I'm interested in pursuing that. I'm most interested in public education though. Dental IQ is so damn low in this country isn't it time we did something about it. Partially it's a selfish reason, I'm sick of seeing people /w rotted teeth, seems like a huge waste to me.

 

[Frederico Albin]

Good posts. Wish you the best in dental school.

 

[Yachi]

You're right about that. When we're all government employees working for a newfound National Health Service in 10 years, 200k will be a pipe dream.

nah, dentists will be alright. feel kinda bad for med school kids.

 

[BillytheEchidna]

So yeah, I think there's a huge need in that minority population of special needs patients. I'm interested in pursuing that. I'm most interested in public education though. Dental IQ is so damn low in this country isn't it time we did something about it. Partially it's a selfish reason, I'm sick of seeing people /w rotted teeth, seems like a huge waste to me.

Educating the public is a great idea! I want to help kids whose families can't afford to get braces for them, and I think it's great that DDS curriculum trains us how to do braces. I'll be able to do it as a side project. I want to stay afloat, but I'm really not in it for the money. The knowledge is expensive, but the materials are not...

Did you see the recent special that Diane Sawyer did about people in Appalachia? A Kentucky dentist put up $100,000 of his own money to turn a semi truck into a portable dental clinic. He treats the kids with "mountain dew mouth" for free. http://www.kidsfirstdental.org/ I wish there were more stories like this. Warms the cockles of my heart. 😍

 

[Kokugeka Shiro]

nah, dentists will be alright. feel kinda bad for med school kids.

I'd like to think so. Worst case, we can unionize and strike until they pay us ALL 200k, regardless of efficiency or skill.

Isn't socialism great!?

 

[Plopper]

I'd like to think so. Worst case, we can unionize and strike until they pay us ALL 200k, regardless of efficiency or skill.

Isn't socialism great!?

haha that is so awesome, i was thinking the other day that doctors should have done that

 

[Simiam]

Considering half of us will have 300k$ in school loans they would have to address that problem if they suddenly wanted to drop our income

 

[Stillmaticbeat]

yeah that's just scary 300k for school!

plus maybe after you graduate you'll want to raise a family, then you'll need a house. Oh wait, that'll be ANOTHER loan. But wait, you'll probably need to feed your kids too and put some things in your house. Maybe you'll want to start a practice. Oh cool, ANOTHER loan. Sweet. If there were rewards for people in the most debt dentists could win.

I think being a dentist works out eventually financially for MOST people. But damn. The beginnings suck. But the same is true for medical doctors.

Someone needs to do something about our schooling costs for real.

 

[Ambivalentone]

Aren't there some great subsidized programs in the USA that allow dentists to serve underserved/poor populations in return for a salary + 1/3 of your loans paid off? This girl doesn't sound too smart... She could have killed 2 birds with 1 stone.

They're competative, but they're out there. If you want the loan repayment thing then be the best damn dental student you can and get you profs to write some fine recommendations. People don't understand. I agree. Dental school debt is like no other. Of all health care professions it is the most expensive, considerabley. Invest in good areas, make connections, and if there are programs to repay debt after a handful of yrs. Well, damn, don't let the opportunity slip through your fingers.