Realistic view of life in dentistry

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Also, considering all the question marks around Ortho right now why take on the extra debt when you're already making what a lot of Orthos make?


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The ortho I work with makes $250 an hour, works 6 days a week, makes about 600k a year... Medicaid office that is 45mins away from Chicago. It doesn't matter if you are a GP or an orthodontist. You can always make it if you want it.

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If you were making 250k working 5 hours a day 5 days a week compared to longer days I think your outlook on the profession would be greatly changed. However, that is the way life is. If we all had more free time we would appreciate the fruits of our labors tremendously more. Unfortunately I still have not experienced this myself and it is probably going to be a rude awakening to be honest. In my mind it's all sunflowers and daisies where I leave the house for 9 hours and come back, 5 days a week, year round, and can make 200k by doing so.
 
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This is not a thread to tell you don't go here or there. I've been where you are. I am a GP that has practiced for about 5 years now. I've been a predent. I know the feeling of thinking we'll if I don't go into dentistry there is nothing better. I came out of dental school with about 240k in loans, and closing in on paying them off. I make about 230k a year that has been trending upward. I will tell you that it's a HUSTLE in the real world. I can't tell you how many crappy associate jobs I've had or the countless stories of being taken advantage of. I'm still an associate in a better situation now, but as a GP to make more than average of have to hustle. Day to day I use dentistry to pay my bills and that's it. It's not a passion, it's a job. I am contemplating going back to orthodontic residency, and in the same dilemma most of you had regarding loans for residency. If you have a will to hustle you can overcome the loans. Just know going in that it's not a cakewalk and you have to hustle, hard.
just out of curiosity, what is it in ortho that makes you want to go into residency? As a first year ortho resident, I'm grateful for the opportunity but I also worry about the financial burden. Although I tried my best to live within my mean, I graduated with 340K in debt. I just found out that there is a limit for stafford loan, set at 225K. This mean that the majority of my loan for residency will come from Grad Plus loan with a 4.% loan fee and 7ish % interest. It will push my loan to over 600K after I am done with school. For a lot of folks out there that are pre-dent and dental students, it sure goes higher when they are ready for residency. I think your situation is a lot better than mine since you almost pay off your loan, but residency will set you back another $250K in loan. Do you think that you would be happier being an orthodontic and how's the job outlook for ortho in california?
 
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just out of curiosity, what is it in ortho that makes you want to go into residency? As a first year ortho resident, I'm grateful for the opportunity but I also worry about the financial burden. Although I tried my best to live within my mean, I graduated with 340K in debt. I just found out that there is a limit for stafford loan, set at 225K. This mean that the majority of my loan for residency will come from Grad Plus loan with a 4.% loan fee and 7ish % interest. It will push my loan to over 600K after I am done with school. For a lot of folks out there that are pre-dent and dental students, it sure goes higher when they are ready for residency. I think your situation is a lot better than mine since you almost pay off your loan, but residency will set you back another $250K in loan. Do you think that you would be happier being an orthodontic and how's the job outlook for ortho in california?

I took a ton of ortho CE and have started about 30 cases a year since. I just find that I like they day to day of ortho more than general. The emergencies are less severe, happy patients, and gratifying work. Financially, I'm not sure how the numbers play out but it is less stressful than being a GP.
 
40 hours shadowing and uncle that has a practice and tells stories does not equate to passion to help people.

You don't seriously believe being a practicing dentist, doctor, etc is the only way to develop a passion for helping people, right?
 
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If you don't have your heart set in something, you won't have the passion. That's why you're supposed to find someone you love and be passionate with them.

Everything in life is tough. Nothing worth a damn is easy. I'm not sure what your argument is to be honest.



Simply a job? Not a calling or life fulfillment?
Yes, it is a job, a career, a way to earn a living. It is an interesting job at times, and a frustrating one at others. Over the long haul a dentist develops perspective about what is possible and what is not. Once the door to the office/clinic/hospital is closed, work stays at work, and you are allowed to be yourself, who you really are....not the healthcare provider you must be during working hours. In order to maintain professional objectivity, a certain distance needs to be maintained between doctor and patient (actors call this the fourth wall on stage). This distance is not relevant to life outside of work, unless you choose it to be. When I go home, the doctor part gets turned off, as it is generally not necessary, and the husband/dad/friend emerges. That is who you really are. The dentist part is not the defining part. Keeping work and personal life completely separate makes this easier.
 
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Someone humor me here. I don't understand why anyone with a bachelor's degree would take the risk associated with $300k - 500k of debt and in the process sacrifice four more years (at least) of his/her youth simply for what he/she believes at the outset to be simply a "job" or a "way to earn a living." That person must be either a total chump or the type of person who managed to get good grades in college biology but is nonetheless too stupid for a job in tech, banking, etc. Of course, it's normal for dentists and other professionals to become disenchanted with their work as their values and the nature of the work itself change or stagnate over years of practice (nor am I talking about dentists who had significantly lower debt/income ratios), but I cannot imagine how a student could justify paying for dental school in 2017 without believing they are following a calling.

Hence, presuming that they are at least minimally financially savvy, I think the contenders of this viewpoint are just pussyfooting around the argument that "dentistry isn't worth it anymore." Just call it as it is so we can move on. I don't think a discussion which logically requires us to grant the proposition that "dentistry ought not to be considered a profession" is constructive in this forum (although the proposition itself makes for an interesting debate).
 
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Someone humor me here. I don't understand why anyone with a bachelor's degree would take the risk associated with $300k - 500k of debt and in the process sacrifice four more years (at least) of his/her youth simply for what he/she believes at the outset to be simply a "job" or a "way to earn a living." That person must be either a total chump or the type of person who managed to get good grades in college biology but is nonetheless too stupid for a job in tech, banking, etc. Of course, it's normal for dentists and other professionals to become disenchanted with their work as their values and the nature of the work itself change or stagnate. over years of practice (nor am I talking about dentists who had significantly lower debt/income ratios), but I cannot imagine how a student could justify paying for dental school in 2017 without believing they are following a calling.

Hence, presuming that they are minimally financially savvy, I think the contenders of this viewpoint are just pussyfooting around the argument that "dentistry isn't worth it anymore." Just call it as it is so we can move on. I don't think a discussion which logically requires us to grant the proposition that "dentistry ought not to be considered a profession" is constructive in this forum (although the proposition itself makes for an interesting debate).

Well said.
 
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Someone humor me here. I don't understand why anyone with a bachelor's degree would take the risk associated with $300k - 500k of debt and in the process sacrifice four more years (at least) of his/her youth simply for what he/she believes at the outset to be simply a "job" or a "way to earn a living." That person must be either a total chump or the type of person who managed to get good grades in college biology but is nonetheless too stupid for a job in tech, banking, etc. Of course, it's normal for dentists and other professionals to become disenchanted with their work as their values and the nature of the work itself change or stagnate over years of practice (nor am I talking about dentists who had significantly lower debt/income ratios), but I cannot imagine how a student could justify paying for dental school in 2017 without believing they are following a calling.

Hence, presuming that they are minimally financially savvy, I think the contenders of this viewpoint are just pussyfooting around the argument that "dentistry isn't worth it anymore." Just call it as it is so we can move on. I don't think a discussion which logically requires us to grant the proposition that "dentistry ought not to be considered a profession" is constructive in this forum (although the proposition itself makes for an interesting debate).
You are either not a dentist, or have not been a dentist very long. The fact that you don't understand something does not make me wrong. You and I are coming from different perspectives, and as an elder statesman, my opinion is as valid as anyone elses. Your attack on anyone who does not hold your ideas and opinions to be genuinely true demonstrates your inability to engage in any type of constructive discussion. You have misconstrued my description of life as a dentist as just a job. I like being a dentist. The work is interesting, and often challenging, especially when you are working on the toughest types of cases. But it is certainly not all encompassing. At the end of the day it is left at the office/hospital. And BTW, I am not disenchanted with my work, in fact it is more exciting now than it was when I first started out.
 
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I view it as just a job or a way to earn a living because there are other things in life that are more important to me: friends and family. I don't think a career or a job can satisfy you nor can it bring you happiness. Only personal growth and relationships can do that.That being said, I grew up around the dental field my entire life and I have come to view the profession differently than other people.
You're getting to my point. There is huge semantic and ethical distinction between a job and a profession. Profession - Wikipedia

Being a professional, by definition, requires a (lifelong) commitment to learning/self-improvement and having a special trust relationship with the people you serve. A proper doctor-patient relationship is so much more meaningful than a business one (as with an ordinary job). Are you sure you don't think you could get any satisfaction or happiness from the work of a dental professional? Perhaps you know a lot dentists who are not satisfied with what they do, but I don't think there is any harm in opening yourself to the potential of moral satisfaction as you start becoming a dentist. Why would the importance of your friends and family in your life have to preclude being happy in your work?

There are thousands of jobs out there that could potentially call to predents...how can you be so certain that it's your calling? Perhaps becoming a dentist is enough? Anyways, concluding that my perception of dentistry is one of the two things you listed isn't sophisticated enough.
I'm not talking about, like, a religious calling specifically to dentistry...although I suppose some people may see things that way too. In my case, I just feel that I'm morally compelled to serve other people, and given the skills that I have and my idea of a balanced life, I thought dentistry made a lot of sense. It's about the meaning of the work.

And no, I wouldn't judge you like that because I think we're operationalizing different definitions of "job." (I suppose I should clarify that I was talking about financial savviness there.) However, if truly you do not care about finding happiness or satisfaction in your work, then why wouldn't you choose an easier way to make money?

You are either not a dentist, or have not been a dentist very long. The fact that you don't understand something does not make me wrong. You and I are coming from different perspectives, and as an elder statesman, my opinion is as valid as anyone elses. Your attack on anyone who does not hold your ideas and opinions to be genuinely true demonstrates your inability to engage in any type of constructive discussion. You have misconstrued my description of life as a dentist as just a job. I like being a dentist. The work is interesting, and often challenging, especially when you are working on the toughest types of cases. But it is certainly not all encompassing. At the end of the day it is left at the office/hospital. And BTW, I am not disenchanted with my work, in fact it is more exciting now than it was when I first started out.
Yikes...looks like I accidentally lit a powder keg. I was writing a response to other general ideas in the thread , not to your post--although I see how it looks like I quoted you.

My main point was that I can't imagine how anything besides an extraordinary sense of professional duty could justify the otherwise irrational financial decision of taking on a half-million dollars of student debt. If you went to dental school when it was considered a rational financial investment, then this must at least partially explain the difference in our perspectives, no?
 
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The ortho I work with makes $250 an hour, works 6 days a week, makes about 600k a year... Medicaid office that is 45mins away from Chicago. It doesn't matter if you are a GP or an orthodontist. You can always make it if you want it.

Oh I know some Orthos who are still killing it right now, but the tune from new grads has been very different.


EDIT: The ortho resident who posted in this thread with his debt is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

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Anyone working at PwC will tell you he/she is HUSTLING as well...and for what 75K with a cap of 100-120K max? all the while working for someone else and not having a lifestyle compared to that of a dentist? Also couple that with job instability (knowing you could be fired if you f'ed up?)
Sorry dentistry is way better even if it is ONLY about the money.

My investment banking friends at goldman are jealous of me being in dental school right now. I also have minimal loans so that helps my case better. I can see how this would tip the favor to someone in finance if a dentist has massive amounts of debt.

Oh you'll have to hustle at both but the cap at PwC is not 120k. Lifestyle and job security are separate perks from just making $$$. Someone who only cares about money and money alone won't care about lifestyle.

I'm not saying dentistry is a bad profession, it obviously isn't or else I wouldn't be doing it. However I don't agree that with all the factors from student loans, saturation, corporate Dentistry infringement, and business loan debt that it's the best profession for solely making money.


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Just adding to the whole finance thing here.... if you want a sweet gig in finance you have to end up at one of the bigger, more expensive cities (i.e. NYC). Living expenses and state taxes there are through the roof, so even making 75 starting and ending at 120 or so, you're going to have a significant amount of your paycheck going to your rent/taxes. Even if you're lucky enough to end up with no debt you're still getting wrecked.
 
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Just adding to the whole finance thing here.... if you want a sweet gig in finance you have to end up at one of the bigger, more expensive cities (i.e. NYC). Living expenses and state taxes there are through the roof, so even making 75 starting and ending at 120 or so, you're going to have a significant amount of your paycheck going to your rent/taxes. Even if you're lucky enough to end up with no debt you're still getting wrecked.

True, my close friend is making 75k working with their Atlanta team but she has to travel 2-3 times a week. Furthermore I suspect not being in NYC might affect her ability to move up the corporate ladder, but just speculating on that point.


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Oh you'll have to hustle at both but the cap at PwC is not 120k. Lifestyle and job security are separate perks from just making $$$. Someone who only cares about money and money alone won't care about lifestyle.

I'm not saying dentistry is a bad profession, it obviously isn't or else I wouldn't be doing it. However I don't agree that with all the factors from student loans, saturation, corporate Dentistry infringement, and business loan debt that it's the best profession for solely making money.


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The bolded is definitely not true. I don't think there's a single person out there who hasn't realized that caring ONLY about money is sufficient. Some of my friends making the most amount of money right now with little time to enjoy realize that it's not about the money only. I think someone who cares ALOT (and i mean ALOT) about money (like me, ill be honest. IDGAF) but not ONLY about money has to come to the realization that you need the lifestyle with it as well. Assuming someone who only cares about money and money alone won't care about lifestyle is what someone without common sense would say.

Also like i said, if you have alot of loans, dentistry is undesirable as a profession. The other factors (like saturation, corporate, and business loan debt) can all be overcome to be honest by hustling.
 
The bolded is definitely not true. I don't think there's a single person out there who hasn't realized that caring ONLY about money is sufficient. Some of my friends making the most amount of money right now with little time to enjoy realize that it's not about the money only. I think someone who cares ALOT (and i mean ALOT) about money (like me, ill be honest. IDGAF) but not ONLY about money has to come to the realization that you need the lifestyle with it as well. Assuming someone who only cares about money and money alone won't care about lifestyle is what someone without common sense would say.

Also like i said, if you have alot of loans, dentistry is undesirable as a profession. The other factors (like saturation, corporate, and business loan debt) can all be overcome to be honest by hustling.

Uhhh there's plenty of jobs that one would ONLY care about money. I-Banking and certain medical surgical specialties fit the bill quite nicely. Make a lot of money but you're working 80-100 hour weeks. Certain jobs in law also fit the bill.

They may realize that after they've made it but there are a plethora of young professionals who only care about the $$$ and will do whatever it takes to get it.


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Uhhh there's plenty of jobs that one would ONLY care about money. I-Banking and certain medical surgical specialties fit the bill quite nicely. Make a lot of money but you're working 80-100 hour weeks. Certain jobs in law also fit the bill.

They may realize that after they've made it but there are a plethora of young professionals who only care about the $$$ and will do whatever it takes to get it.


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Yea my I-banking friend who's 24 and works at goldman realizes that money is not everything and he is actually trying to get out. He knows people that are trying to leave too. I think the percentage of people who only care about the $$$ their WHOLE LIVES is small. Maybe alot of them start out that way ("oh money is everything") but I think as years pass and they gain more maturity, there's a high attrition rate for people who still maintain that attitude
 
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Yea my I-banking friend who's 24 and works at goldman realizes that money is not everything and he is actually trying to get out. He knows people that are trying to leave too. I think the percentage of people who only care about the $$$ their WHOLE LIVES is small. Maybe alot of them start out that way ("oh money is everything") but I think as years pass and they gain more maturity, there's a high attrition rate for people who still maintain that attitude

Yeah I think we agree here. Nothing comes without a cost.


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Yeah I think we agree here. Nothing comes without a cost.


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Right but to come back to full circle, what I am trying to say is that the basis for an argument that dentistry is the wrong career if you ONLY care about the money is not even an argument because very few people think like that in the long term-who thinks about life in a bubble like that? Dentistry is still the right career for money, lifestyle, and everything else. IF you can minimize debt.
 
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Right but to come back to full circle, what I am trying to say is that the basis for an argument that dentistry is the wrong career if you ONLY care about the money is not even an argument because very few people think like that in the long term-who thinks about life in a bubble like that? Dentistry is still the right career for money, lifestyle, and everything else. IF you can minimize debt.

I mean but the whole point of the statement "you only care about money" is just that.

If someone came to me and said "I don't care what I have to do I want to be a millionaire", Dentistry would not be the first job I would recommend. Can you do it in dentistry? Of course! But it's not the most straightforward way IMHO. Regardless with the amount we are earning we are very well off.


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True, but it also depends on the individual. Some people would struggle to become a millionaire in some fields, but they could succeed in others if they are smart and lucky enough. Assuming low debt and cash flow in dentistry, seems like it opens a lot of doors.

For sure it does, lord knows the finance world is not for me.


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Anyone that goes into a health profession to make a bunch of money is delusional. Is the pay good? Sure. But if money is your only motivation, there are plenty of careers where you can make more money / just as much money with less work.
See I'm just not sure I agree with that. People argue that engineering, tech, and investment banking are the go-to careers if you want to work less to make just as much or more money. However, lots of engineering job markets are drying up. Just take a look at the BLS. It's also not as stable and provides much less job security when compared to the healthcare industry. Tech has even higher turnover, and the job security is nil. The money is good, so I will give that to you. Investment banking is becoming more an more automated, thus decreasing the overall number of available jobs. Also you need to attend a target school to even have a shot at getting into a good IB position. After you've attained an IB job, then you can look forward to 80-120 hour work weeks for several years with a burnout rate higher than medicine.

So other than tech which again provides much, much less job security than healthcare I don't really see the massive advantages of the counter arguments (engineering, IB) that usually get thrown around on here. It takes hard work and long hours to make six figures period unless you were just born into a good situation.
 
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My brother in law started in the business world in 1983 when I graduated D school. He entered a management training program with only a bachelors degree from a small third tier university. While I built my practice, he climbed up the company ladder, with only that BA in tow. He stayed at the same company until he retired last year, at the age of 57, with millions in stock and options from the company he started with. He retired as a senior vice president. I am sure he faced a different kind of pressure than I did, but I am still working, although I like my practice and my hospital job. Just thought I would throw this example out that if it is financial security one is after, there are certainly other ways than healthcare.
 
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My brother in law started in the business world in 1983 when I graduated D school. He entered a management training program with only a bachelors degree from a small third tier university. While I built my practice, he climbed up the company ladder, with only that BA in tow. He stayed at the same company until he retired last year, at the age of 57, with millions in stock and options from the company he started with. He retired as a senior vice president. I am sure he faced a different kind of pressure than I did, but I am still working, although I like my practice and my hospital job. Just thought I would throw this example out that if it is financial security one is after, there are certainly other ways than healthcare.

Ah, you boomers had it good
 
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