Really like psych but ...

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DD214_DOC

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... my only reservation for stickign with psych or behavioral neuro is my feeling that I will "miss out" on normal "medical" stuff such as rounding, PEs, seeing pts for stuff other than psych issues, etc.

Any way to get around this? I am unable to recall the existence of combined IM/Psych programs.

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You can do all my rounds and PEs :D

You can do neurology. They touch people a lot and deal with hospital-based medical issues more than psychiatrists normally do.
 
... my only reservation for stickign with psych or behavioral neuro is my feeling that I will "miss out" on normal "medical" stuff such as rounding, PEs, seeing pts for stuff other than psych issues, etc.

Any way to get around this? I am unable to recall the existence of combined IM/Psych programs.

From someone with recent experience on this issue, be sure to REALLY think long and hard about your decision - there are also med/psych programs you can apply to.
 
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geriatric psychiatry much? i almost had to do a manual disimpaction on a guy with a g tube the other day. doesn't get much more "hands on" than that.
 
I think it's common to worry about not doing physical exams (I mean, why did we learn all the medical stuff in med school if it's not going to be used)... Personally, I decided to apply triple board (throwing some Peds into the mix)... and as have already been noted there are a variety of other combined programs to explicitly mix the more hands-on aspects of medicine with psychiatry. I found a few interesting articles about the role of the physical exam for psychiatrists:

Residency Physical Examination/"Medical Clearing"
http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/25/4/236

Physical Exam in Psychiatric Practice
http://apt.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/11/2/142

The "Doorway" Exam
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/167/12/1356
 
Internal Medicine/Psychiatry

California

University of California (Davis) Health System Program
Sacramento, California 715-05-44-032
Connecticut

University of Connecticut Program
Hartford, Connecticut 715-08-44-029
Georgia

Emory University School of Medicine Program
Atlanta, Georgia 715-12-44-034
Illinois

Rush University Medical Center Program
Chicago, Illinois 715-16-44-018
Southern Illinois University Program
Springfield, Illinois 715-16-44-009
Iowa

University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics Program
Iowa City, Iowa 715-18-44-003
Kansas

University of Kansas Medical Center Program
Kansas City, Kansas 715-19-44-008
Louisiana

Tulane University Program
New Orleans, Louisiana 715-21-44-010
Maryland

National Capital Consortium Program
Bethesda, Maryland 715-23-44-021
New Hampshire

Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center Program
Lebanon, New Hampshire 715-32-44-016
New York

SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn Program
Brooklyn, New York 715-35-44-033
North Carolina

Duke University Hospital Program
Durham, North Carolina 715-36-44-012
Pitt County Memorial Hospital/East Carolina University Program
Greenville, North Carolina 715-36-44-005
South Carolina

Medical University of South Carolina Program
Charleston, South Carolina 715-45-44-025
Tennessee

East Tennessee State University Program
Johnson City, Tennessee 715-47-44-028
West Virginia

West Virginia University (Charleston Division) Program
Charleston, West Virginia 715-55-44-014
West Virginia University Program
Morgantown, West Virginia 715-55-44-006

Psychiatry/Family Medicine

California

University of California (Davis) Health System Program
Sacramento, California 720-05-44-004
University of California (San Diego) Program
San Diego, California 720-05-44-005
Iowa

University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics Program
Iowa City, Iowa 720-18-44-009
Maryland

National Capital Consortium Program
Andrews AFB, Maryland 720-23-44-012
Ohio

University of Cincinnati Hospital Group Program
Cincinnati, Ohio 720-38-44-006
Case Western Reserve University/University Hospitals of Cleveland Program
Cleveland, Ohio 720-38-44-013
Oklahoma

University of Oklahoma College of Medicine-Tulsa Program
Tulsa, Oklahoma 720-39-44-001
Pennsylvania

University of Pittsburgh Medical Center Medical Education Program
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 720-41-44-015
West Virginia

West Virginia University Program
Morgantown, West Virginia 720-55-44-010
 
Combined programs are good for academics but they can pose problems when it comes to billing. Depending on your practice arrangement, you may have to choose one of your specialties when billing.

If you like both fields, go for it. But don't do both if you think it will get you ahead in the job market.
 
If you're reading this thread, I want your dos pesos on this...

The folks on the medical service are often at war with the psych service. Heres a common rundown

The Emergency Dept receives a pt. brought in by police, who has an obvious Axis I diagnosis, (wandering the streets in nothing but socks, raving about being God..... whatever you want). The ED knows the patient well, and he's a diabetic, and has a psych Dx, and is noncompliant with meds.
The ED medically clears the patient, and decide that the only problem is that his Psych Dx is uncontrolled.
The medical guys find that the blood sugar is chronically high around 200, and that it isn't safe to lower it to a non-diabetic normal like 100. They want to admit the pt to the psych service.

The Psych service refuses to take the patient because the sugar is at 200, and they arent able to manage that complication.
The medical service has nothing to do, because the patient has ruined their own physiology, and their baseline blood sugar is 200. They aren't able to manage the patient because they wander around the ward and assault other patients.

What to do?
 
If you're reading this thread, I want your dos pesos on this...

The folks on the medical service are often at war with the psych service. Heres a common rundown

The Emergency Dept receives a pt. brought in by police, who has an obvious Axis I diagnosis, (wandering the streets in nothing but socks, raving about being God..... whatever you want). The ED knows the patient well, and he's a diabetic, and has a psych Dx, and is noncompliant with meds.
The ED medically clears the patient, and decide that the only problem is that his Psych Dx is uncontrolled.
The medical guys find that the blood sugar is chronically high around 200, and that it isn't safe to lower it to a non-diabetic normal like 100. They want to admit the pt to the psych service.

The Psych service refuses to take the patient because the sugar is at 200, and they arent able to manage that complication.
The medical service has nothing to do, because the patient has ruined their own physiology, and their baseline blood sugar is 200. They aren't able to manage the patient because they wander around the ward and assault other patients.

What to do?

Admit to medicine service with a 1 on 1 watch and psychiatric consult, possible restraints? or just admit him to the psych ward with an insulin sliding scale... 200 is not high enough to excuse an admission to the psych ward with insulin coverage and internal medicine consult. Psychiatrists are medical doctors after all, why resist?
 
If you're reading this thread, I want your dos pesos on this...
...
The Psych service refuses to take the patient because the sugar is at 200, and they arent able to manage that complication.
The medical service has nothing to do, because the patient has ruined their own physiology, and their baseline blood sugar is 200. They aren't able to manage the patient because they wander around the ward and assault other patients.

What to do?

In my hospital, he's on a locked psych ward, with nurses who can (thank God) handle minor and chronic medical anomalies, and we're getting competent endocrine consultation as we manage the acute psychotic condition that is more likely to kill him quickly (getting beaten, set on fire, run over by a truck, freezing to death, etc.) :(
 
What to do?

Have the attending deal with it.

Whenever it comes to "battling" with other departments, you should have the attending worry about it. That's at least what goes on in my end because usually its another attending that's trying to turf to psyche and a resident should never go up against another attending.

However if you don't want a real cop out answer and want to see what I'd do if I was the attending.....

I'd take the patient with a BS or 200 if the ED documented that this was a baseline value and added in a medical consult to monitor the sugar. If the sugar was in the high 200's I'd refuse to accept the pt.

However another problem at my hospital is med consults don't show up half the time.
 
Interesting.... all these responses sound reasonable.
Suffice it to say, thats not what was done.
 
There's been plenty of crazy things I've seen. Don't know what year you are, but I'm a 4th and I've come to expect bad turfing once in awhile.

My 2 hallmark bad cases were a guy with both legs broken, medically cleared with no attention to the guy's legs. The ER doctor simply saw it was a suicide attempt and wrote that everything was normal without checking anything. Our attending, believing the ER doc (it was from another hospital, the attending had no reason not to believe the ER doc) accepted the pt.

the other horror case was a guy who didn't speak english & was turfed to psychiatry simply because he didn't speak english. It turned out the guy's chief complaint was chest pain 2ndary to angina. Not only did the ER doctor drop the ball on that one, so did the crisis ER doc who also pretty much chalked up her inability to understand the pt as psychosis.

Anyway, getting back to the original topic, in addition to considering IM/psyche, there's also combined family practice/psyche. Family Practice also has a lot of psychiatry mixed in with it. Several FP docs I know said 1/4 to 1/3 of their patients have an active psyche element that they treat.
 
My 2 hallmark bad cases were a guy with both legs broken, medically cleared with no attention to the guy's legs. The ER doctor simply saw it was a suicide attempt and wrote that everything was normal without checking anything. Our attending, believing the ER doc (it was from another hospital, the attending had no reason not to believe the ER doc) accepted the pt.

the other horror case was a guy who didn't speak english & was turfed to psychiatry simply because he didn't speak english. It turned out the guy's chief complaint was chest pain 2ndary to angina. Not only did the ER doctor drop the ball on that one, so did the crisis ER doc who also pretty much chalked up her inability to understand the pt as psychosis.

:eek:!!! Those are pretty tragic cases, especially about the non-english speaking guy with chest pain.
 
Anyway, getting back to the original topic, in addition to considering IM/psyche, there's also combined family practice/psyche. Family Practice also has a lot of psychiatry mixed in with it. Several FP docs I know said 1/4 to 1/3 of their patients have an active psyche element that they treat.

Yep, Ive heard/seen the same thing on my FP rotation. I listed the FP/Psy combined programs on a previous post above.

The horror story I was thinking of was that the psych pt. that the Psych service wouldnt admit beat up the old man in the bed next to them because he wouldnt get up and play.
 
Its pretty sad when you're a resident that doesn't know much and you can tell the attending isn't doing their job. I figured doctors had higher standards-nope. (well at least the good doctors wouldn't do this).

It is important to keep up with your medical skills even as a psychiatrist. As a crisis ER psychiatrist or an inpatient unit psychiatrist, you will see a lot of cases where other departments try to dump a patient on you that truly isn't medically cleared.

However, in psyche, unfortunately, yes, you probably will not use things such as PEs, review of systems etc as much as in the other fields.

You also may have a handful of attendings who have almost forgotten medicine, to the point where it bothers you. E.g. they're not checking labs and you notice a BUN/Cr ratio over 30 to 1 that your attending missed--for days!

My program is based in a university hospital, but allows some of the residents to work in a non-university community hospital because that one has a lot more to offer (a locked unit, PACT teams, crisis psyche programs). The community hospital has a lot of these turfing "horror" cases though it happens even in the best hospitals. One of the guys in my dept was a teaching professor at an Ivy League psyche dept & told me it happened all the time there as well.
 
Another question about combined programs: I've read some posts about the Triple Board (Peds, Psych, CAP) option, but it seems like no one has a good answer as to how competitive it is. I guess there are only 22 spots total or something like that, but I am not sure how many applicants there are each year.

This seems like something I'd really be interested in, but I refuse to spend the next couple years obsessing over board scores, research, publications, etc. Any ideas?
 
Another question about combined programs: I've read some posts about the Triple Board (Peds, Psych, CAP) option, but it seems like no one has a good answer as to how competitive it is. I guess there are only 22 spots total or something like that, but I am not sure how many applicants there are each year.

This seems like something I'd really be interested in, but I refuse to spend the next couple years obsessing over board scores, research, publications, etc. Any ideas?

I'm also just a med student, and therefore probably have about as much knowledge of the subject as you, but I think that in the future, the number of med/psych and peds/psych programs will increase. Right now we have a general medicine team that is made up of med/psych doctors and residents, and they take only med/psych patients. When a general medicine team gets an admission of a medicine patient with psychiatric comorbidities, or vice versa, they can call the med/psych team, who has the option to either accept the patient or turn them down, if they don't feel that they need to be on their service. It really helps to have a team that can manage both, and I think this will become increasingly popular as hospitals catch on. Of course, this is probably easier to do at a large academic institution than anywhere else. However, it could be years before there's a significant increase in the number of these programs and I'm guessing not much will happen by the time we finish med school.
As for the competitiveness of the programs, I have no idea. According to the NRMP, there are 10 programs with 20 total peds/psych/child psych positions in the country. It looks like 15 were filled by US seniors and 19 total filled, meaning 1 didn't. The programs are the University of Hawaii, Indiana U, U Kentucky, Tulane, New England Med Center (Tufts), Mt Sinai, Cincinnati Children's Hospital, UPMC, Rhode Island Hospital/Brown and U of Utah. I got this info from: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2007.pdf
 
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