really really really.....really confused

[chan]

Hello everyone. I have a question that I hope someone will be able to answer.

ok here it is.

Most people I have been talking to have said that taking prereq coures at a JC are acceptable but looked at as a "no,no" in adcoms eyes.

I work full time M-F (50+ hrs a week), and all of the classes offered at the universities in my area are offered during the day... none at night.

So, I have been taking all my courses at a JC because they are the only ones offered at night.

I am wondering, how the hell I am suppose to take classes at a University? How does everyone else do it? Loans? cut back on work?

If you do any of these things.. how do you do it when you have a family and children as I do? How do you keep your health insurance for your family?

Also, if you have already graduated from a university, how do you afford to go back and take a couple of prereq courses?

Please, help.

how do adcoms expect me to go back to a university and complete these courses when I work full time with a family?

Thanks.... any answers would be awesome.

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[MJB]

I'm trying to figure this out as well.

Some questioned how serious I was about going back to school.

I'm probably going to commute an hour each way 2 nights a week this fall to take a class...

Very hard to do, and especially hard when you don't have a University that offers night courses nearby.

 

[mshheaddoc]

1) classes are looked down on supposedly at community college. I have 2 universities about 45 mins away from me currently and 2 community colleges so I'm fortune. I would say if your only option for prereqs is community college go for it. If you had a good undergrad grades and good MCAT and LOR you would be find for applying I imagine. More and more people are taking upper level classes. I'm supposingyou don't haeve that option. I dont understand why adcoms look down upon that. I wonder what the rest of you are doing whether community college or university.

As for money, I just use loans (private loans) You can have one year of post-bacc work covered by federal loans.

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,
There are a couple of things to take into consideration. First, if you really do an outstanding job on the MCAT, I believe that any problems with your coursework being at a community college will be answered. Second, if you are trying to do "damage control" for a poor GPA, then your community college courses are going to be something of a liability. Third, if you have a four-year degree from a university and you are just taking the pre-med req courses then you may be OK as long as the rest of your application is competitive. This means that you need to be sure that your LORs, your personal statement, your extracurriculars and your MCAT score are very tight.

Again, if all you have available to you is a community college, it is better than not taking any courses at all. Just be sure that your pre-req courses are of sufficient detail that you will be able to do well on the MCAT. As a non-traditional student, you DO have to keep your day job and support your family. This is one of the downsides to attempting to gain admission to medical school later in life. You have obligations and you have to make the best of any situation that will get you closer to your goal. If you have a choice between a community college and a four-year university that is reasonable, then go for the university. If you do not have that choice, do not apologize but really make sure that you get good coursework that prepares you well for the MCAT exam and do well. You have to do what fits in your lifestyle best and go from there.

njbmd

 

[NP??MD??]

Could you take online or distance ed classes through a university? I have no idea how this is looked at, but thought it might be an option.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Could you take online or distance ed classes through a university? I have no idea how this is looked at, but thought it might be an option.

I've taken a few classes this way. I've also taken Community college classes and classes at a 4-year state uni. They were cheap, less than 10 min from my home and all I could afford.

I HAVE to work. There is not way around that.

I see it this way. If I get a 35 on the MCAT, the Community college argument will be moot. If the ad coms are so myopic they can't see pass my community college class and see the whole package, then maybe that school is not the place for me.

 

[blee]

I'm going to make some unpopular comments, but I'm only trying to help.

If you already have a strong undergrad GPA that includes the pre-req courses, then you might be alright taking JC courses as a way to prepare for the MCAT. If you need to take these courses because you didn't take them in college, or because your GPA needs some improvement, then I would strongly encourage you to take them in a regular college or university.

Imagine you were on an admissions committee. Every year, only ~1/3 of all medical school applicants get accepted somewhere. This means that just about every school has a very low acceptance rate; most of them are tasked with picking 100-150 students out thousands of applicants, the majority of whom have strong GPAs, decent MCAT scores, and a few medical ECs. How do you suppose they would look at a 4.0 GPA from a community college, spread out over two or three years? They certainly wouldn't give it the same weight as the same GPA taken from a selective college, where it takes some effort to get in and it takes more effort to distinguish oneself from a pile of undergrads, some of whom are quite motivated.

I understand that you're in a tough situation. You have to make money, you've got adult bills to pay, you might even have to support a family. But if you have this much difficulty taking a few undergrad classes for a year, how do you plan to handle the workload in medical school? You won't be able to work, certainly not full-time, and your studies will take up an enormous amount of your patience and attention. Student loans will only go so far if you have to take care of more than yourself. If you think that adcoms will give you some leeway because you couldn't take college courses and work at the same time, you're probably mistaken; I doubt they will simply ignore the fact that you took your pre-reqs at a non-competitive institute.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I question your commitment to medicine if you are unable or unwilling to cut back on your work schedule. My wife and I made some tough decisions and some lifestyle changes that I thought were going to be extremely painful. As it turns out, we're doing very well despite the >50% reduction in household salary, and our relationship is stronger than it's ever been, thanks to my regained confidence and sense of self. If you really, really want this, then you can do it. Don't short-change yourself by making sacrifices in your education; if you want to get into med school, you have to put your best face forward, which might require you to cut back in other areas temporarily.

If you can find a way, any way at all, to take those classes at a national university, then do it. You will be far better off for it.

 

[chan]

I'm going to make some unpopular comments, but I'm only trying to help.

If you already have a strong undergrad GPA that includes the pre-req courses, then you might be alright taking JC courses as a way to prepare for the MCAT. If you need to take these courses because you didn't take them in college, or because your GPA needs some improvement, then I would strongly encourage you to take them in a regular college or university.

Imagine you were on an admissions committee. Every year, only ~1/3 of all medical school applicants get accepted somewhere. This means that just about every school has a very low acceptance rate; most of them are tasked with picking 100-150 students out thousands of applicants, the majority of whom have strong GPAs, decent MCAT scores, and a few medical ECs. How do you suppose they would look at a 4.0 GPA from a community college, spread out over two or three years? They certainly wouldn't give it the same weight as the same GPA taken from a selective college, where it takes some effort to get in and it takes more effort to distinguish oneself from a pile of undergrads, some of whom are quite motivated.

I understand that you're in a tough situation. You have to make money, you've got adult bills to pay, you might even have to support a family. But if you have this much difficulty taking a few undergrad classes for a year, how do you plan to handle the workload in medical school? You won't be able to work, certainly not full-time, and your studies will take up an enormous amount of your patience and attention. Student loans will only go so far if you have to take care of more than yourself. If you think that adcoms will give you some leeway because you couldn't take college courses and work at the same time, you're probably mistaken; I doubt they will simply ignore the fact that you took your pre-reqs at a non-competitive institute.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I question your commitment to medicine if you are unable or unwilling to cut back on your work schedule. My wife and I made some tough decisions and some lifestyle changes that I thought were going to be extremely painful. As it turns out, we're doing very well despite the >50% reduction in household salary, and our relationship is stronger than it's ever been, thanks to my regained confidence and sense of self. If you really, really want this, then you can do it. Don't short-change yourself by making sacrifices in your education; if you want to get into med school, you have to put your best face forward, which might require you to cut back in other areas temporarily.

If you can find a way, any way at all, to take those classes at a national university, then do it. You will be far better off for it.

So basically you are telling me to be selfish. To look out for the needs of myself rather than those of my wife and child. Great Advice! Actually, this would be really good advice if I did not have an infant.

First of all, comment to me when you know what it is like to have a family. When it was just my wife and I, things were much much eaiser.

Secondly, you are actually questioning my dedication to medicine? Okay. Would you still like to question me when you know that I work a 50 hour week, take 2 science courses a night, volunteer at a hospital on the weekend, and wake up every night at 12, 3, and 5am on a regular basis so my baby can eat.

Thirdly, you also asked me how I will be able to handle a workload in medical school: Obviously I wont be able to work in medical school, are you kidding me?. Of course I will be living off both loans and my wifes income. Medical school is a full time job and I will act accordingly.

Finally, there is no way that I am going to take out loans (on top of the loans im still paying off for undergrad) to take a couple of pre req courses.

I will agree with you that it is probably not the best way to go, taking classes at a JC. However, everyones situation is different and that is the point I think you are missing. Think about this, If everyone were a "cookie cutter" applicant how would adcoms choose who gets into med school. Its our differences and uniqueness that makes us strong applicants.

 

[thirdunity]

I'm going to make some unpopular comments, but I'm only trying to help.

If you already have a strong undergrad GPA that includes the pre-req courses, then you might be alright taking JC courses as a way to prepare for the MCAT. If you need to take these courses because you didn't take them in college, or because your GPA needs some improvement, then I would strongly encourage you to take them in a regular college or university.

How about this situation?

I am taking classes at the JC to meet requirements to transfer to UC Davis. The thing is, my major (biology) requires I take some of the classes which also happen to be premed prereqs (chemistry, calculus and biology) before being admitted to the university as a transfer student. I can take the rest of the classes (such as physics and o-chem, plus the rest of my biology classes) after I transfer.

I've been rather concerned about this, and if I should transfer under a less restrictive major, so that I can get all my premed classes at UC.

 

[blee]

So basically you are telling me to be selfish. To look out for the needs of myself rather than those of my wife and child. Great Advice! Actually, this would be really good advice if I did not have an infant.

First of all, comment to me when you know what it is like to have a family. When it was just my wife and I, things were much much eaiser.

Secondly, you are actually questioning my dedication to medicine? Okay. Would you still like to question me when you know that I work a 50 hour week, take 2 science courses a night, volunteer at a hospital on the weekend, and wake up every night at 12, 3, and 5am on a regular basis so my baby can eat.

Thirdly, you also asked me how I will be able to handle a workload in medical school: Obviously I wont be able to work in medical school, are you kidding me?. Of course I will be living off both loans and my wifes income. Medical school is a full time job and I will act accordingly.

Finally, there is no way that I am going to take out loans (on top of the loans im still paying off for undergrad) to take a couple of pre req courses.

I will agree with you that it is probably not the best way to go, taking classes at a JC. However, everyones situation is different and that is the point I think you are missing. Think about this, If everyone were a "cookie cutter" applicant how would adcoms choose who gets into med school. Its our differences and uniqueness that makes us strong applicants.

I told you my advice would be unpopular. I also said that I'm being as objective as possible. Whether you actually have the desire and commitment is one thing, and I could never know for sure; what's important is what the adcoms think, and unless you're called in for an interview, all they have are the transcripts and the personal statement. I'm just telling you how they might see things.

We have a little girl due in November. Actually, we would've had one a year ago (while I was in my postbac year) except that I thought delaying twelve months would be a reasonable compromise. Between med school admissions, the baby, and figuring out how and where we're going to live next year, it's going to be rather exciting around the blee household. Believe me, quitting my job to go to school full time was not an easy decision, and I believe it would've been next to impossible if we had an infant. Just the same, if I were in that situation, I think I'd rather wait a year and then go head-first into a postbac program. If you take one or two classes at a time, you'll take a few years to finish; if you take two at a time, at most two years; if you take three and one over the summer, then one year. If you plan to live on loans + one income for med school, wouldn't it be worth doing the same for one more year if it would improve your chances of getting in -- and therefore getting in somewhere you would actually like to go? Keep in mind that your wife and child may limit where you could actually go to school. I can't go too far away from our family support, which has given me hard geographical constraints.

Again, please don't take this the wrong way, but switching careers like this is not easy. It takes a significant amount of sacrifice, not the least of which is money. You're going to be away from your spouse and your baby for long periods of time, and there's no money in the world that could make up for that. But I'm willing to do it, and it sounds like you are, too. Don't make the adcoms think otherwise, is all I'm saying.

 

[1Path]

I told you my advice would be unpopular. I also said that I'm being as objective as possible. Whether you actually have the desire and commitment is one thing, and I could never know for sure; what's important is what the adcoms think, and unless you're called in for an interview, all they have are the transcripts and the personal statement. I'm just telling you how they might see things..

As a nontrad/late 30 something person with a family, I agree FULLY with what you wrote previously which are, whether or not we like it, the facts.

Many, many years ago when I was bemoaning my low undergrad grades (I often worked 2 jobs) to an adcom member he simply said to me "you either want to work or go to school". At the time I thought it was the most cruel thing I'd ever heard but now I KNOW his advice was right on point.

Workign 50 hours/week with a young infant would say to me the same thing I had to face 5 years ago when I had an acceptance to med school, but a souring marriage and sick parent to take care of. Now is NOT the time for med school, handle your "business" and come back to it later. Well for me, later is NOW and I'm a much better person and applicant for having waited until it was right for both me and my family.

 

[blee]

Thirdly, you also asked me how I will be able to handle a workload in medical school: Obviously I wont be able to work in medical school, are you kidding me?. Of course I will be living off both loans and my wifes income. Medical school is a full time job and I will act accordingly.

Finally, there is no way that I am going to take out loans (on top of the loans im still paying off for undergrad) to take a couple of pre req courses.

I will agree with you that it is probably not the best way to go, taking classes at a JC. However, everyones situation is different and that is the point I think you are missing. Think about this, If everyone were a "cookie cutter" applicant how would adcoms choose who gets into med school. Its our differences and uniqueness that makes us strong applicants.

(I realized that I didn't answer everything, so I'm making another post. Sorry for WOB.)

Our differences -- what few there are, and trust me, all of us are more alike than we're different -- do matter, but I don't think that JC classes would be a positive difference. Someone else said that it's better than nothing, and that's certainly true; however, I would hate for anyone to shortchange themselves by believing that they can't do something, when in fact they absolutely can.

As far as loans go, I was also hesitant to do it and I initially wanted to go through my local CC for at least 10x less money. I changed my mind because of the selectivity of the whole process; you're dreaming if you think that just being a nontraditional applicant will set you enough apart. It's very hard to get in, but some people do...the ones who do everything they possibly can. To me, taking classes at night while working seemed like the most convenient solution. I didn't see it as an option that showed enough commitment or desire. That's why I did what I did. It was #$@!# expensive but it will pay off. And if it doesnt, then I know I gave it everything I had. "I gave my best and I have no regret at all."

And finally, who said that preparing for med school isn't a full time occupation? Undergrads make it theirs, why shouldn't I? If you're not willing to give it your all, then adcoms will wonder why. And saying that you had bills to pay, while true, really isn't that impressive.

Listen, you obviously want very much to go to medical school. So do I, and so do most of us. I understand what you're trying to do, and I know what kind of sacrifice I'm talking about here. Given your current situation, maybe the best plan is to give yourself a year to let life settle back into a rhythm. Now is not the time to fit in even one class at a JC, not if you're going to be awake every four hours for the next few months. You really need to buckle down in school and you really need to get excellent grades in a competitive setting. If you think you can swing classes at a more selective school next year, I think that's much preferable to doing what you can right now.

 

[chan]

(I realized that I didn't answer everything, so I'm making another post. Sorry for WOB.)

Our differences -- what few there are, and trust me, all of us are more alike than we're different -- do matter, but I don't think that JC classes would be a positive difference. Someone else said that it's better than nothing, and that's certainly true; however, I would hate for anyone to shortchange themselves by believing that they can't do something, when in fact they absolutely can.

As far as loans go, I was also hesitant to do it and I initially wanted to go through my local CC for at least 10x less money. I changed my mind because of the selectivity of the whole process; you're dreaming if you think that just being a nontraditional applicant will set you enough apart. It's very hard to get in, but some people do...the ones who do everything they possibly can. To me, taking classes at night while working seemed like the most convenient solution. I didn't see it as an option that showed enough commitment or desire. That's why I did what I did. It was #$@!# expensive but it will pay off. And if it doesnt, then I know I gave it everything I had. "I gave my best and I have no regret at all."

And finally, who said that preparing for med school isn't a full time occupation? Undergrads make it theirs, why shouldn't I? If you're not willing to give it your all, then adcoms will wonder why. And saying that you had bills to pay, while true, really isn't that impressive.

Listen, you obviously want very much to go to medical school. So do I, and so do most of us. I understand what you're trying to do, and I know what kind of sacrifice I'm talking about here. Given your current situation, maybe the best plan is to give yourself a year to let life settle back into a rhythm. Now is not the time to fit in even one class at a JC, not if you're going to be awake every four hours for the next few months. You really need to buckle down in school and you really need to get excellent grades in a competitive setting. If you think you can swing classes at a more selective school next year, I think that's much preferable to doing what you can right now.

Okay. I really agree with what you are saying, and if it were just my wife and I, I would easily go back to a state university to complete my classes. I was actually enrolled in a University and ready to begin (ready to do the same thing you are doing with no work, loans, and classes) until we found out she was pregnant. Then, I knew I HAD to keep my job and things would be much different from here on out.

You say you have a baby due in November. That means your wife is about 6 months pregnant. I very vividly remember those times. The baby didnt seem like a reality, and my life was still only about her and I. You will find out that Once that baby steps into the world, everything changes. Believe me, EVERYTHING. Your life no longer is about you.. but all about that baby and his/her needs.

Now, to sacrafice the needs of my child for the needs of myself seems to be questionable to me.

And no, most likely taking a year off to let things return back to a "rhythm" won't help. I am responsible for that child for the rest of my life. Most parents you talk to tell you there lives are hectic until their children get in to high school. So I guess I could wait another 16 years to do my prereqs at university.. or I could go with what life has put on my plate and adapt to the situation im in.

If a med school doesnt think im a good fit for their progam because I worked full time to support my family and took classes at night at a Junior College then they are probably not the right fit for me.

 

[blee]

And no, most likely taking a year off to let things return back to a "rhythm" won't help. I am responsible for that child for the rest of my life. Most parents you talk to tell you there lives are hectic until their children get in to high school. So I guess I could wait another 16 years to do my prereqs at university.. or I could go with what life has put on my plate and adapt to the situation im in.

If a med school doesnt think im a good fit for their progam because I worked full time to support my family and took classes at night at a Junior College then they are probably not the right fit for me.

I can't argue with your philosophy if you believe it rings true for you, and of course I would tell anyone to stick up for what they believe. I just want to warn you that few schools will make concessions because you had outside commitments, and the schools to which are you accepted may not be in an area amenable to your wife and child. If you truly feel you have no choice, then you'd better make sure you quite literally ace every course you take.

I also agree that if you wait until the "perfect" time, you will find that no such thing exists. It took me far too long to realize this, and while I don't regret my life, I do wish we hadn't wasted quite so much time. But little concessions can be made here and there. I don't think it would be such a huge sacrifice to wait until your baby can sleep through the night (most nights). You still won't be absolved of responsibility, but at least you'll have slightly more time to yourself -- time that you will need to concentrate on school, JC or not. Seriously, I believe you can stick to your morals and also do the hard work you need to do...but maybe not right now, although that judgement is obviously yours to make.

Going further on the family issue, you must realize that there will be significant sacrifice for you and your wife, child, and any future children. Through med school, residency/fellowship, and the rest of your career, you will make more concessions for your work than you would in most other professions. It's going to happen, and there will be a lot of balancing and dealmaking along the way. With that said, will one more year make such a big difference? And if it would, then shouldn't you at least make sure you're out of the "totally helpless infant" stage before you dive in?

My deepest worries going forward actually have very little to do with the academic part of med school. I know I have the ability and desire to do well. I worry that I won't be able to perform to my full potential because I'm going to be so wrapped up with being a good father and husband. But like you, I'm not willing to wait 18 years to apply. I'm going to roll with the punches, say sorry when I screw up, and make sure I do right by my family. Still, both mom-to-be and I know that I won't be able to throw myself into fatherhood the same way I could have if I'd stuck with my first career. In order to be the best I can at both, we've worked together to make things less difficult; our child will be almost a year old by the earliest date I could start school, and we're in relatively good position to have another towards the end of my second year. None of this is perfect, but this isn't a perfect world.

So going back to your original question: First of all, never let a bunch of fools over the internet tell you what to do. Only you can tell yourself how much you can really handle and what you're really capable of doing. That said, you have to make this imperfect world of ours as perfect as possible. If the choice is between taking JC courses for a few years starting today or taking university courses for one year starting next year, I would go for the second option. For anything in between, I would always go for the option that puts you in the most rigorous academic setting possible. I firmly believe that adcoms look at numbers before they look at anything else because they have no choice, which means that many simultaneous classes at a selective school would look better than one or two classes at a time at the local community college. Best of luck with whatever direction you choose; I'll be rooting for you either way. I know that I would've been a terrible med student and a worse doctor if I'd gone straight out of college, and I give nontrads a lot of credit for doing what we do.

 

[MJB]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I question your commitment to medicine if you are unable or unwilling to cut back on your work schedule.

I hate to say "I told you so", but I saw this coming from a MILE away...

Some people have to go about it differently than others...if you want something badly enough, you can make it happen. Unfortunately, not all of us have bosses that will give us very flexible schedules or have universities very close by that have multiple offerings of these courses...

I'm still waiting to hear if I will be allowed to take Chem. II this fall. If I can't, it will delay my application for at LEAST a year...but I simply CANNOT quit my job right now because my wife has a semester of Nursing school left.

Perhaps some people need to quit "questioning the committment" of others and wake up and realize not everyone is as fortunate as they might have been. Perhaps.


That being said, if at all possible, try to stay away from JC's..

 

[blee]

Perhaps some people need to quit "questioning the committment" of others and wake up and realize not everyone is as fortunate as they might have been. Perhaps.


That being said, if at all possible, try to stay away from JC's..

No, not everyone is as fortunate, but I wouldn't expect an adcom to significantly temper their judgement because of life difficulties. There's just too much competition, and too many strong students who have no excuses.

I fully understand that life often gets in the way of the perfect plan, and we all have to make the most of what we've got. At the same time, no one here should expect special consideration just because we're non-traditional applicants. It's much easier to convince a medical school that you want to be a doctor when you've shown it on paper, and that often involves a lot of sacrifice. It's not fun, and it sounds incredibly callous, but I know of no way to make it sound better. The positive side to all of this is that people who do show determination and perseverence will have a LOT to say about themselves, and the fact that most of us have lived in the real world will give us a unique perspective from which to market ourselves to med school adcoms.

So I wasn't actually questioning the OP's personal conviction. I could never know that, and the internet is a horrible place to learn about anyone's inner workings. But adcoms have to do this before extending interviews, and all they have are some numbers, a few letters, and an essay. After reading some personal statement written by friends and other prospective students, I can tell you that few of us are truly unique. Because of this, we really need to make ourselves look as good as possible on paper, and to me, this means showing rigor and endurance by any means necessary. If that means waiting one more year, then maybe that's the best choice; just don't wait another year, since we all know that there's no perfect time.

 

[MJB]

I completely agree that Adcom's won't or don't care about life difficulties for the most part...however, there's a big difference between saying that and saying "I question your committment to medicine if you are not willing or able to quit your job this INSTANT"...

Believe me, I'm in the same shoes as the OP, and if I COULD drop everything right now, I would...

With any luck, my situation will be different in 6 months.

 

[MJB]

blee,

Please also understand that my intention was not to chastise you in particular...I'm just pointing out that all of us as non-trads have enough things working against us, and people doubting us....so I figure the least we can do is try to be as helpful and non-discouraging as possible.

To the OP, I'm in much the same situation as you if you read my "Where to start" thread...

I'm stuck at my job at least until my wife finishes school...and I may not be able to start until that occurs, because there are pretty much NO opportunities for night classes around here.

The one thing I would say is to stay away from JC's...just because they are perceived to be much easier, right or not.

I figure I'm going to have to quit my job and go full time school and go back to stocking shelves in the grocery store to achieve my goals of getting into Med School.

It will be worth it!

 

[thirdunity]

I figure I'm going to have to quit my job and go full time school and go back to stocking shelves in the grocery store to achieve my goals of getting into Med School.
It will be worth it!

Why go back to stocking shelves? Why not go after an allied health job (such as phlebotomist)?

The training's short, the pay's better than you'd get stocking shelves - plus you get some clinical experience. There's also part-time work.

 

[1Path]

I'm stuck at my job at least until my wife finishes school...and I may not be able to start until that occurs, because there are pretty much NO opportunities for night classes around here. !

The are many, many other opportunities for taking science courses other than at night or at a JC. For example, UC-Berkley offeres some very highy regarded on-line options and as I understand it, your transcrit won't read "on-line" class. There are also some distance learning/on-line options for completing the premed prequisites (except the labs) in classes like general chemistry.

 

[Truth_seeker]

Hi there,
There are a couple of things to take into consideration. First, if you really do an outstanding job on the MCAT, I believe that any problems with your coursework being at a community college will be answered. Second, if you are trying to do "damage control" for a poor GPA, then your community college courses are going to be something of a liability. Third, if you have a four-year degree from a university and you are just taking the pre-med req courses then you may be OK as long as the rest of your application is competitive. This means that you need to be sure that your LORs, your personal statement, your extracurriculars and your MCAT score are very tight.

Again, if all you have available to you is a community college, it is better than not taking any courses at all. Just be sure that your pre-req courses are of sufficient detail that you will be able to do well on the MCAT. As a non-traditional student, you DO have to keep your day job and support your family. This is one of the downsides to attempting to gain admission to medical school later in life. You have obligations and you have to make the best of any situation that will get you closer to your goal. If you have a choice between a community college and a four-year university that is reasonable, then go for the university. If you do not have that choice, do not apologize but really make sure that you get good coursework that prepares you well for the MCAT exam and do well. You have to do what fits in your lifestyle best and go from there.

njbmd

I totally second this. In all my research, I've heard the same two responses. CC classes are okay, adcom's look down on it. However, like others have said, if you have a good GPA in undergrad and have no alternative to university, then take the CC classes. However, take the classes that are for AS degree, Associates in Science. Since most CC's are vocational schools, they'll offer courses geared to nursing, EMT, rad. tech, med. tech, etc. So those courses will lack in detail what you need for the MCAT and med school. I'm lucky, I have 3 universities in the area all within 45 minutes of each other. I've decided to take the majority of classes at State but if the times don't work out with family obligations and stuff, then I'll take the course at a CC. My goal is to take the biggies like gen. chem, organic, and bio at State and then maybe physics at CC. Again that physics class is for an AS degree so it's comparable to taking at a University. Also the CC in my area is pretty well respected. I mean it's no university and it is a CC but still has a good reputation. If an adcom were to confront me on my choice of schools then I'd fully explain why I made the decision (in a non-apologetic way b/c we all have responsibilities) and how it's prepared me for school. I think it demonstrates alot that you are sacrficing time and making a genuine effort to get these classes done. But all that said, make sure if you do take classes at a CC that you know the material and you get a top grade in the class. An awesome MCAT score will silence any critic of CC classes because it's not an easy test. Good luck!

 

[chan]

all this JC, University talk: Lets give ourselves a hypothetical.

1) Say you already graduated from a university, and are looking for somewhere to complete your prereqs. You begin taking your classes at a competitive Junior College (one that is a feeder into highly regarded universities) because you know the classes there are offered at better times, and they are going to be tough. Your undergrad GPA wasnt so hot, @ a 3.0. However, you take all the coursework and a couple extra classes and end up having a 3.5 science GPA. You take the MCAT and score a 32.

2) Every thing is the same as the above situation except that you take your classes at a "so-so" university (just because it is a university and you know adcoms like it when you take your prereqs there) and end up earning a 3.2 science GPA. You score a 30 on the MCAT.


Which is better?

 

[MJB]

The are many, many other opportunities for taking science courses other than at night or at a JC. For example, UC-Berkley offeres some very highy regarded on-line options and as I understand it, your transcrit won't read "on-line" class. There are also some distance learning/on-line options for completing the premed prequisites (except the labs) in classes like general chemistry.

The problem I seem to be running into is that many local schools won't let you "just take the lab", or that would be a VERY viable option, imo.

I think I might be getting good news on the Chem. II thing though, so that would make my day!

 

[Sainttpk]

all this JC, University talk: Lets give ourselves a hypothetical.

1) Say you already graduated from a university, and are looking for somewhere to complete your prereqs. You begin taking your classes at a competitive Junior College (one that is a feeder into highly regarded universities) because you know the classes there are offered at better times, and they are going to be tough. Your undergrad GPA wasnt so hot, @ a 3.0. However, you take all the coursework and a couple extra classes and end up having a 3.5 science GPA. You take the MCAT and score a 32.

2) Every thing is the same as the above situation except that you take your classes at a "so-so" university (just because it is a university and you know adcoms like it when you take your prereqs there) and end up earning a 3.2 science GPA. You score a 30 on the MCAT.

Which is better?

Ditto!! I would also like to add that alot of Universities out there are not exactly quality education. There basically SH@$T factories. My undergrad insitution had T.A.'s teaching chemistry and physics courses. Do you really think most grad students care about teaching undergrads?

In my experience community colleges classes can actually be just as challenging and difficult as a four year college. For starters CC teachers have smaller classes. Whereas a 4 year school might have a general chemistry class that contains at least 100 people. Not to mention the test questions were multiple choice in order to make it easier on the T.A.

Take all the advice on SDN with a grain of salt, do what is best for you, and try your hardest.

 

[blee]

Those are tough scenarios to judge. Given those two cases, I would probably lean towards the higher MCAT score. 3.5 or 3.2 are not stellar postbac GPAs, but they might be good enough, depending on everything else.

And it's certainly true that some national universities have horrible teachers, particularly for their basic science courses. The difference is that you're competing against a more traditional student population at a four year college, where some students will be slackers, some will be intelligent but lazy, and some will be superstars. Given this and the large sample size, I feel that grades taken from a university are a better reflection of one's capabilities than grades taken from a community college.

 

[sunnyjohn]

The are many, many other opportunities for taking science courses other than at night or at a JC. For example, UC-Berkley offeres some very highy regarded on-line options and as I understand it, your transcrit won't read "on-line" class. There are also some distance learning/on-line options for completing the premed prequisites (except the labs) in classes like general chemistry.

This is true.

Maybe we should start a listing.

 

[1Path]

The problem I seem to be running into is that many local schools won't let you "just take the lab", or that would be a VERY viable option, imo.

I've heard of folks being able to "waive" lab requirements by working in labs. Of course, ANY consession by the adcoms comes only with competitive MCAT's from what I can see.

 

[njbmd]

Okay. I really agree with what you are saying, and if it were just my wife and I, I would easily go back to a state university to complete my classes. I was actually enrolled in a University and ready to begin (ready to do the same thing you are doing with no work, loans, and classes) until we found out she was pregnant. Then, I knew I HAD to keep my job and things would be much different from here on out.

You say you have a baby due in November. That means your wife is about 6 months pregnant. I very vividly remember those times. The baby didnt seem like a reality, and my life was still only about her and I. You will find out that Once that baby steps into the world, everything changes. Believe me, EVERYTHING. Your life no longer is about you.. but all about that baby and his/her needs.

Now, to sacrafice the needs of my child for the needs of myself seems to be questionable to me.

And no, most likely taking a year off to let things return back to a "rhythm" won't help. I am responsible for that child for the rest of my life. Most parents you talk to tell you there lives are hectic until their children get in to high school. So I guess I could wait another 16 years to do my prereqs at university.. or I could go with what life has put on my plate and adapt to the situation im in.

If a med school doesnt think im a good fit for their progam because I worked full time to support my family and took classes at night at a Junior College then they are probably not the right fit for me.

Hi there,
It is possible to take your pre-med requirements at a community college and get into medical school especially if you already have a degree from a university. If you do not have the university degree, you are going to have to get one anyway so you would be transferring to a four-year school. You DO have to do very well on the MCAT and I am speaking of getting more than just a 30. Thirty is around the average of matriculated medical students, you need to be above that average number.

I have served on an admissions committee for an allopathic medical school and we do realize that some students are not able to take their pre-med coursework at a university. If their MCAT scores were very competitive and they had transferred to a four-year college for their degree or had previously received their degree, we did not have a problem with this. We DO realize that in accepting non-traditional students, they may have non-traditional preparations for medical school. What you DO have to convey by MCAT score and GPA is that you CAN master a challenging medical school curriculum.

At this point, you HAVE to support your family and take your courses where you can get them. You cannot sacrifice one thing for another especially since your child is very young and you are the sole means of support for your family. Work hard and study hard. Get excellent grades and get scholarships. These should help with some of the tuition. Take one class at a time if you have to but your energies are now devoted to your young family. If medicine is your dream, you will find a way to make things work so right now, do what you can and keep moving forward.
njbmd

 

[runner1979]

Take the courses at the CC. I don't have a family, but was working 60+ hour weeks and CC was the only option for me to obtain a few of my prereqs (already had 4 year CheE degree). Only one interviewer even inquired about it and once I mentioned the circumstances he was completely in agreement. They are JUST pre-reqs...hoops to jump through. Get the courses and move on. (but if you do take it at a CC, be sure to get an A and then do well on that portion of the MCAT).

Like anything in life, you can spin it positively or you can go in there and say the classes were such a joke blah blah blah. I have much respect for a lot of the people in my CC classes because many were changing careers and working full-time, single parents with children, etc. Was it as difficult as a 4-year institution, probably not. Did it work as a pre-req---sure did--just like everyone elses.

I think SDN has a lot of great information, but a lot of posters here wear blinders--they see the app process as a strict formula. Do your research on your own, talk to some admissions officers and decide which is the best route for you.

Best of luck.

 

[1Path]

Take the courses at the CC. I don't have a family, but was working 60+ hour weeks and CC was the only option for me to obtain a few of my prereqs (already had 4 year CheE degree). Only one interviewer even inquired about it and once I mentioned the circumstances he was completely in agreement. .

My understanding is that ChemE majors have the highest acceptance rates to med school than any other major, and for good reason. I personally think engineers are some of the smartest folks on the planet. As a matter of fact, every one I've ever known that applied to med school was accepted to an Allopathic school. So in your case, CC classes in seen in the light of an engineering degree really isn't a "fair" comparison to make.

Another point I'd like to make is about the quality of CC classes. I've also taken a about 6 classes mainly in the sciences and can say from personal experience that the only differences I found between those and the ones I took at a big state university were the following:

1) Much smaller classes/ MUCH cheaper tuition
2) Professors that cared about your progress
3) Classmates that actually worked together/few if any gunners that I can recall.

Overall, I felt it was a VERY rewarding academic experience no matter what the adcoms think.

 

[Truth_seeker]

Good points 1path. I agree. Like I said in an earlier post, the important thing when taking CC classes are to take the classes geared toward the Associates in Science degree. For instance, there's a general chemistry for the AS degree and then there's chemistry that's for a nursing student or med lab student. The chem for nursing is probably a good class but won't be as in depth or cover the material necessary for the MCAT. Stay away from the vocational classes and take the classes for an actual degree in AS if taking classes at a CC. But yeah, the CC classes are SO much cheaper compared to University classes. I don't think I would qualify for any student aid b/c I am working 40hrs a week still and getting paid decently. So that kinda stinks.

 

[Califlower]

I would like to be optimistic and think that good grades from a JC and a good MCAT score would solve the issue, but when getting accepted is this cutt-throat and competetive, I wonder if I can risk it. I personally don't have a strong academic background -- it's not bad, but it isn't stellar enough as of the moment.

I personally, wouldn't risk it; but I understand it if others have conflicts with taking the prereq's at a uni. Obviously, family is very important. I don't think anyone's going to come out and say strictly that JC grades will not be accepted, the rumor on the grapevine seems to be that JC classes are discouraged, or at least it carries some sort of a stigma. Whatever it is. While it is not fair, I think as long as you can accept the outcomes, it would be okay. Realize that this may (or maybe not) be a potential disadvantage, so ace those darned classes. And knock out that MCAT like nobody's business.

 

[njbmd]

I would like to be optimistic and think that good grades from a JC and a good MCAT score would solve the issue, but when getting accepted is this cutt-throat and competetive, I wonder if I can risk it. I personally don't have a strong academic background -- it's not bad, but it isn't stellar enough as of the moment.

I personally, wouldn't risk it; but I understand it if others have conflicts with taking the prereq's at a uni. Obviously, family is very important. I don't think anyone's going to come out and say strictly that JC grades will not be accepted, the rumor on the grapevine seems to be that JC classes are discouraged, or at least it carries some sort of a stigma. Whatever it is. While it is not fair, I think as long as you can accept the outcomes, it would be okay. Realize that this may (or maybe not) be a potential disadvantage, so ace those darned classes. And knock out that MCAT like nobody's business.

Hi there,
The OP does not have the option, at present, of taking pre-med courses at the local university. He has a family and a job that currently requires 50 hrs per week. In his case, his CC classes will have to do. If he does well on the MCAT and has an otherwise high undergraduate GPA, he is going to be invited for interviews and he stands a better than average shot at getting into medical school. He is not going to be stigmatized for attending a CC especially if he had done well on MCAT.

If you have "damage-control" to do for your undergraduate GPA, you should not be attending a community college for your pre-med coursework. You can take general education courses but you will not overcome a poor undergraduate GPA by taking community college coursework. Again, this applies to folks who are trying to raise a mediocre undergraduate GPA.

After sitting on an admissions committee, I can tell you that people who are able to support a family and do well academically ( CC or university) are looked upon very favorably. If this applies you, be sure that you get this point across in your application as it is a very positive point to make.

njbmd

 

[Nanon]

You can take classes all of your pre-reqs at a community college and get into medical schools, even some top 10 medical schools. I have 8 friends who did just that - almost all of them ended up at UCSF. Some had to work to support families, some couldn't afford a post-bacc program, and some were trying to transfer into a 4 year and needed to complete the pre-reqs to qualify for transfering into their science major. All did very well, all had pretty good MCATS, and all of them were very cool people with a lot of interesting stories to tell in interviews. I think that's pretty much all it takes, folks. I think, unless the school explicitly states that they won't take CC students, that adcoms are looking for demonstrated qualities like intelligence and social competence.

Don't make this process harder than it already is.

 

[chan]

If you have "damage-control" to do for your undergraduate GPA, you should not be attending a community college for your pre-med coursework. You can take general education courses but you will not overcome a poor undergraduate GPA by taking community college coursework. Again, this applies to folks who are trying to raise a mediocre undergraduate GPA.

Hi njbmd, I wouldnt say Im doing "damage control". However, my undergrad grades were only so-so. I have a cum undergrad GPA of 2.8 as of right now (not sure if thats considered damage control or not). I really slacked off a lot my first two years at a CC, transfering to a university with a 2.01 GPA (I was going through a messy divorce with my parents). After I got the the university, my first two semesters were crap and I ended up getting an academic disqual. I wrote the university a letter and got granted re-admission. The next semester I made deans list and pulled my GPA up to a 2.6 over the next few semesters. I graduated in 2003 with a B.A. in psychology and a B.A. in child and adolescent development. My science GPA is a 3.6 and should be higher as I still have a few more courses to take. I have done some excellent research/clinical and volunteer work so Im hoping that will help my application along with a great MCAT and science GPA. I will be applying to both D.O. and M.D. programs. what do you think?

-chan

 

[njbmd]

Hi njbmd, I wouldnt say Im doing "damage control". However, my undergrad grades were only so-so. I have a cum undergrad GPA of 2.8 as of right now (not sure if thats considered damage control or not). I really slacked off a lot my first two years at a CC, transfering to a university with a 2.01 GPA (I was going through a messy divorce with my parents). After I got the the university, my first two semesters were crap and I ended up getting an academic disqual. I wrote the university a letter and got granted re-admission. The next semester I made deans list and pulled my GPA up to a 2.6 over the next few semesters. I graduated in 2003 with a B.A. in psychology and a B.A. in child and adolescent development. My science GPA is a 3.6 and should be higher as I still have a few more courses to take. I have done some excellent research/clinical and volunteer work so Im hoping that will help my application along with a great MCAT and science GPA. I will be applying to both D.O. and M.D. programs. what do you think?

-chan

Hi there,
Your overall undergraduate GPA is going to be a problem. While your science GPA is good, you may end up with around a 3.0 which is low for getting into most medical schools (DO and MD). A good MCAT is going to help you. DO schools will tend to look at your entire application and not screen strictly by numbers so you should put your emphasis there especially since you are a non-traditional applicant. You have a little more life-experience and maturity now so you should emphasize that in your personal statement. (Do not use your personal statement to explain your poor academic years but use your PS to highlight your maturity and excellent academics at present.) You should also give your state medical schools a try but again, successful matriculants generally have GPAs in the 3.5-3.8 range. You have reasons for your low GPA and you probably show a steady upward improvement but be ready to explain all of the circumstances around your poor GPA in an interview.

Ace the MCAT and get your application out.
njbmd

 

[chan]

Hi there,
Your overall undergraduate GPA is going to be a problem. While your science GPA is good, you may end up with around a 3.0 which is low for getting into most medical schools (DO and MD). A good MCAT is going to help you. DO schools will tend to look at your entire application and not screen strictly by numbers so you should put your emphasis there especially since you are a non-traditional applicant. You have a little more life-experience and maturity now so you should emphasize that in your personal statement. (Do not use your personal statement to explain your poor academic years but use your PS to highlight your maturity and excellent academics at present.) You should also give your state medical schools a try but again, successful matriculants generally have GPAs in the 3.5-3.8 range. You have reasons for your low GPA and you probably show a steady upward improvement but be ready to explain all of the circumstances around your poor GPA in an interview.

Ace the MCAT and get your application out.
njbmd

Hey, thanks for the reply. I wish I would have known then what I know now about grades and how important they are. I know my overall GPA is going to be the one thing in my application that may hurt me. I am a CA resident so usually our state schools (all the UCs) show us no love when it comes to application time. Im thinking of applying to about 15-20 D.O. programs and maybe 10-15 M.D. programs, mostly private schools. Anything else you suggest doing to improve my application?

-Chan

 

[medworm]

Chan -- I have a feeling you're in Southern California, in which case the CCs and UCLA/UCI extension are okay. If you're applying to UC med schools, they DO NOT expect you to take your prereqs at the UCs or CSUs b/c of the recent budget cuts that would preclude you from enrolling.

One non-trad in my class, very pleasant lady in her late 30s with 2 kids, graduated from UCLA with a 2.0. Became a housewife for years, not much work experience, went back to school at the CC one or two classes at a time and got all As. She was getting interviews for Pharm school from Loma Linda and UCSF.

Good luck.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

i don't know an answer to this one, and i think it's a frustrating issue. personally, i think major state universities in urban areas should make a concerted effort to offer classes at night and on weekends, but that doesn't seem to happen. i've been fortunate in that all the classes that absolutely are not offered at night at the chem classes, which i already have. i've taken all my other prereqs at night at the local state university. the funny thing is that most of the instructors are also teaching at the community college and are not on the faculty at the university, so it's not like you get a superior education.

anyway, i think it says really bad things about med schools that they either don't allow cc credits or frown upon them. it's just a further example that people at adcoms have never lived in the real world, but whatever. as for quitting your job, do you really want to do that? can you afford to do that? i can't, so it's not an option. plus, working fulltime has made me a better, more mature adult. honestly, i think there is a point where highly qualified applicants need to consider options like offshore schools and (gasp) do schools just because md adcoms are so small-minded in some respects. i dig the do philosophy, so it works for me, but i know that's not an answer for everyone.

 

[blee]

i don't know an answer to this one, and i think it's a frustrating issue. personally, i think major state universities in urban areas should make a concerted effort to offer classes at night and on weekends, but that doesn't seem to happen. i've been fortunate in that all the classes that absolutely are not offered at night at the chem classes, which i already have. i've taken all my other prereqs at night at the local state university. the funny thing is that most of the instructors are also teaching at the community college and are not on the faculty at the university, so it's not like you get a superior education.

anyway, i think it says really bad things about med schools that they either don't allow cc credits or frown upon them. it's just a further example that people at adcoms have never lived in the real world, but whatever. as for quitting your job, do you really want to do that? can you afford to do that? i can't, so it's not an option. plus, working fulltime has made me a better, more mature adult. honestly, i think there is a point where highly qualified applicants need to consider options like offshore schools and (gasp) do schools just because md adcoms are so small-minded in some respects. i dig the do philosophy, so it works for me, but i know that's not an answer for everyone.

I don't think that it's an issue of being small-minded as much as it is an issue of selectivity. Most schools have acceptance rates well under 10%, which suggests that even some of the country's best and most qualified applicants will get dinged from some schools. If you have to pick between two applicants who are similar in most all respects except for the qualities of their pre-req educations, how would you make the decision if you were on an adcom?

It's not fun, and it doesn't feel good, but it's just the truth. I would never say that someone who took CC courses because he or she had to is somehow inferior to me, because it's probably not true. Just the same, we have no choice but to be judged by our CVs and our numbers before we even get a chance to interview with a school. Some people may not significantly affect the quality of their application portfolios by taking courses outside of a major university, but I'm certainly not one of them.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I don't think that it's an issue of being small-minded as much as it is an issue of selectivity. Most schools have acceptance rates well under 10%, which suggests that even some of the country's best and most qualified applicants will get dinged from some schools. If you have to pick between two applicants who are similar in most all respects except for the qualities of their pre-req educations, how would you make the decision if you were on an adcom?

It's not fun, and it doesn't feel good, but it's just the truth. I would never say that someone who took CC courses because he or she had to is somehow inferior to me, because it's probably not true. Just the same, we have no choice but to be judged by our CVs and our numbers before we even get a chance to interview with a school. Some people may not significantly affect the quality of their application portfolios by taking courses outside of a major university, but I'm certainly not one of them.

no, i still think it's small-minded. in most other non-academic and professional school environments, prior work experience and life experiences are viewed as a plus. in fact, applicants with work experience are preferred over applicants without that. with medical school, it seems like they give you no props for the dedication involved with going to school while working fulltime, while other schools are smart enough to know that that makes you an especially dedicated, hard-working and likely successful student.

i've done the traditional student route -- my parents paid for me to go to college like your average premed. i didn't have to support myself, and i studied a decent amount and made pretty good grades. i've also done the nontrad thing and worked while going to school, and the latter is so much harder and more challenging. it would be nice if adcoms realized that, and yeah, saw that that was a sign of extra dedication.

 

[blee]

no, i still think it's small-minded. in most other non-academic and professional school environments, prior work experience and life experiences are viewed as a plus. in fact, applicants with work experience are preferred over applicants without that. with medical school, it seems like they give you no props for the dedication involved with going to school while working fulltime, while other schools are smart enough to know that that makes you an especially dedicated, hard-working and likely successful student.

i've done the traditional student route -- my parents paid for me to go to college like your average premed. i didn't have to support myself, and i studied a decent amount and made pretty good grades. i've also done the nontrad thing and worked while going to school, and the latter is so much harder and more challenging. it would be nice if adcoms realized that, and yeah, saw that that was a sign of extra dedication.

On the specific topic of work experience, I would argue that adcoms are certainly willing to give an applicant some credit for being successful in a different field before turning to medicine. The trick would be to convince them that your work experience makes you a great candidate for their school. For example, if you look at your law career and just poo-poo it as a waste of time during your interview, perhaps you wouldn't be seen as anyone special. But if you let yourself be empowere by your experience, then I don't think it would hurt. In fact, there's some anecdotal evidence (here and elsewhere) that it can help. Of course, someone who applies to business or law schools might want to have a brief career in business or law before committing to the tuition. It's much more difficult to do work that even slightly resembles that of a physician with only a bachelor's degree.

On the topic of academic achievement, though, I don't think adcoms are alone in being biased against less competitive schools, regardless of your life constraints. How hard is it to get into a Big Law firm if you graduate at the head of the class from a local law school, and how hard is it to do the same from Cornell Law? Going back a step, how difficult is it to get into a top tier law school with excellent grades from a community college, and how difficult is it to do the same from an Ivy League university? I don't expect to change your opinion on this issue, but I don't see this as being small minded.

I believe the cards are stacked slightly against the non-trad pre-med, but I don't really see this as wrong. It is what it is, and the only way to "win" is to play by the rules as hard as possible.

 

[benelswick]

put your money on what njbmd says, y'all.

You have to demonstrate unequivically that you're not a risk of wasting critical physician training resources--much like you must convince a bank to give you a loan for half a mil. Part of that could be your level of commitment and sacrafice displayed by the O.P. But also you've got to have good grades from a 4-year school and a solid->high MCAT. They have no way of knowing anything about your 2-year school or some 4-year schools for that matter--therefore the proof is in the puddiing--which is made of gpa and MCAT. I don't look for justice and idealism within this game, I just listen to people like njbmd and think how I can get myself over this mountain. Good luck to everybody!--Ben.