Recent "Minor" Academic Institutional Action and T20 chances... Seeking Advice

[Pyroman]

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[candbgirl]

Did the professor change (add) to the syllabus or were those directions on the syllabus right from the start of the class?
Why did the zero get dropped? Really, there seems to be no impact on your grade at all. Is it really an IA?

 

[fogo]

The matter of fact is that top schools receive enough high-caliber applicants without any red flags to fill their class two times over. Obviously you know that not reporting an IA is suicide.

I won't stop you from applying to the top schools but you'll have to brace yourself for many rejections. You should apply broadly and to many schools.

 

[candbgirl]

No, it was in the syllabus already but not in the exams section, it was in a sort of boilerplate section near the end. Prof didn't mention it in class until reports were filed. Mistake on my part for not reading closely and seeing this rule.

Zero was dropped due to the class having a 1 exam drop policy, so this just got counted as the drop. I guess it's an IA since I got a 0 for the exam and there's a record of this stored in the Dean's office.

Oh there is a record in the Dean’s Office. That’s what I wondered.

 

[Goro]

Yeah, I see your point and realize that these schools get lots of phenomenal applicants. I have some pretty unique research and good LoR in my favor, but this is overall a tough situation. Will try to apply as broadly as possible and keep expectations in check.

Out of curiosity, why do you think schools like Drexel or Albany would be more forgiving? Do you think that they're desperate for applicants?

 

[LondonVibes]

It is quite strange that IAs often have more to do with following your professor’s directions as opposed to more absolute and general rules. I think most of us agree that an IA for not following directions is extremely harsh, but it’s there now.

An intentional academic integrity IA at this point would’ve ended your medical career for a half decade, but since there’s no intent, it’s more difficult to say. I think that if ADCOMs understand you were going to get an A in the class anyways and that the violation was unintentional, you will be fine, but I’m not sure how many ADCOMs will think that way.

Also, please don’t take exams that you don’t need to take 😉.

 

[Goro]

I don't recall saying anything of the sort, and certainly don't think those schools would be desperate by any means. My intent was to apply T20 given my credentials thinking I would have a good shot, so that's what I centered my question around. I have an acceptance in hand, but having worked hard to have a good profile in undergrad I figured I'd try my luck at more competitive schools. That's not to say other schools would be more forgiving but perhaps given the average applicant's score and GPA is lower than at the highest ranked schools, something like this would be more likely to be overlooked if the rest of the application was solid. If Albany or Drexel could fill their class 3x over with 4.0s and 528s, I'm sure they would be just as picky with their applicants.

Do you have any thoughts on what is advisable in my situation? How are my chances likely impacted given an incident of this nature?

This sanction seems more trivial than serious. Yes, you should have paid better attention tot he rules, but the rules should have been in the syllabus. I'd cut you some slack.

If you don't apply, your rejection rate will be 100%. Sometimes you have to apply and see how the cycle shakes out with the app you have, warts and all.

Let's call in some Big Guns:
@LizzyM
@gyngyn
@Maimonides1
@Moko
@LunaOri
@lord999
@Angus Avagadro

 

[Moko]

During one of my online classes this semester, I had an open note take home exam where I used some resources online and the prof's lecture videos to help complete it. I failed to read a minor detail near the end of the syllabus stating that these resources weren't allowed while the exams were live. For reference, I hadn't come across a class with these rules on take-home exams in previous online classes. I didn't know of this rule till after I took the exam, and I know this is no excuse but I did not have an intent to be dishonest. This discovery resulted in the professor giving me (and many other students) a 0 and filing a first-time internal report with the Deans office. The exam was dropped from my grade, there's no mark in the transcript, and I ended the course with a high A. I'm told that this isn't as egregious as other instances of academic dishonesty or plagiarism, but I can't shake the feeling that this one careless fault is going to wreck my application to these top schools.

Do you think this is severe enough of an IA that it's not worth applying to top-tier MD schools anymore? Would schools follow up with my undergrad to ask for more details on the situation? It's going to be extra work to write those applications, so I want to be sure I have a fighting chance before taking the plunge financially and effort-wise. Thanks in advance for any advice!

I'm somewhat confused. How was this an open note exam if you were not allowed to use notes? If this is the full extent of your offense, I agree with @Goro that it doesn't seem that bad. Just my thoughts.

 

[KnightDoc]

I'm somewhat confused. How was this an open note exam if you were not allowed to use notes? If this is the full extent of your offense, I agree with @Goro that it doesn't seem that bad. Just my thoughts.

Because he didn't just use his notes. "I used some resources online and the prof's lecture videos to help complete it." This isn't using notes - it's looking up the answers to questions going way beyond prewritten notes!! 🙂

 

[KnightDoc]

It is quite strange that IAs often have more to do with following your professor’s directions as opposed to more absolute and general rules. I think most of us agree that an IA for not following directions is extremely harsh, but it’s there now.

An intentional academic integrity IA at this point would’ve ended your medical career for a half decade, but since there’s no intent, it’s more difficult to say. I think that if ADCOMs understand you were going to get an A in the class anyways and that the violation was unintentional, you will be fine, but I’m not sure how many ADCOMs will think that way.

Also, please don’t take exams that you don’t need to take 😉.

Yeah, the thing about this is you don't know which exam you don't need to take until after the fact! The drop is usually the lowest grade. In this case, the 0!

 

[LizzyM]

I had an open note take home exam where I used some resources online and the prof's lecture videos to help complete it.

I gave an open note take home exam and had a student plagiarize a website (a resource online) in response to an essay question. Based on that experience, I might be more harsh on cheating during a take home exam than other adcoms might be. YMMV.

It is harsh to say, "we won't admit this person because of this behavior" but to admit them is to say that such behavior is acceptable in our community. This could be a long discussion in an adcom meeting.

 

[Pyroman]

Because he didn't just use his notes. "I used some resources online and the prof's lecture videos to help complete it." This isn't using notes - it's looking up the answers to questions going way beyond prewritten notes!! 🙂

Right, and this is where I made the error. This stipulation on not using lecture videos and online sources was in the syllabus, but near the 'copy/pasted' section at the very end of the syllabus and not in the 'exams' section. It's still my mistake for not seeing it, but maybe that gives some context to why it happened in the first place.

If I had written those notes myself or, say, had a physical textbook instead of lecture videos, they would've been allowed. Unfortunately for me I didn't become aware of this until after it was too late. I mistakenly thought "open notes, open internet" which was the case in previous classes but not this one.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yup! I'm glad the professor allowed me to drop the exam given the circumstances, I feel that this would help my case a little bit in that it doesn't seem as severe of an offense.

True. If they really wanted to beat the crap out of you, you'd have received an F for the class AND a notation on your transcript.

 

[Banco]

I mean listen, you already have a guaranteed admit at your home institution right? So worst case you're still going to medical school.

Just take your shot at applying to the more competitive schools and see how it shakes out. Make sure that you confirm whether this is an actual IA that needs to be reported. No point in wondering about "chances" - that's too unpredictable of a question.

 

[candbgirl]

You are already admitted to a med school right. Does that med school have a way of finding out about this incident? Or do they already know and not care?

 

[Pyroman]

You are already admitted to a med school right. Does that med school have a way of finding out about this incident? Or do they already know and not care?

Yes my home institution. They are aware of it and don't seem to care at all.

 

[mmchick]

Yes my home institution. They are aware of it and don't seem to care at all.

Then apply away. There are no downsides to this aside from you spending the time and money on it. Don't know what's stopping you aside from that.

 

[Maimonides1]

Even though at face value your IA appears to be on the minor side with good disclosure and explanation, nonetheless it might disadvantage you and place your App in the bottom of the pile in a very competitive year that increasingly getting tougher..!
I recommend to you what others suggested already.., to take your straight admit at your home school and throw your net wide as you might get the same leniency extended to you at your home institution..?

Good luck!

 

[LizzyM]

I think that there might be a long discussion behind closed doors in an adcom meeting as to what to do with this applicant. I can see people coming down on either side.

 

[awwkyun]

Hi there! One last thing I wanted to bring up! I was like you in the sense that I was part of an "early admit" program, and had high stats, 4.0 GPA, high MCAT, good LOR's, great EC's (president of several clubs, etc.), and had really strong research. My biggest question is how much support does your direct admit program provide while you are in undergrad. For me personally, we had a ton of support and were given several opportunities to get to know the school and to be involved in the culture. In my case, I always knew that was where I wanted to be and I knew the culture was right for me. I guess I would first off encourage you to look into your school and understand if this is the right environment for you.

While my school is not a T20, I have always felt supported, and the academic rigor has been what I expected. We are being prepared well for STEP, and I don't think with STEP going to pass/fail, that I will have trouble getting into the residency of my choice, so long as I perform the best I can (currently looking into otolaryngology). I would encourage you to be sure before you apply to other programs and to look into the terms of your direct admit program, you wouldn't want to burn any bridges with the individuals at your home institution.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

There is little to lose,except the cost of applying and travel, if your home school is ok with the IA. All the others posters make good points. Most medical schools can help you reach your professional goals. Doing well at.a.top 30 school with good board scores and a solid application should get you where you need to go. I see little downside or upside by casting a wide net in your case. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[LizzyM]

Hi, I have some information that might be useful to you, although it might be too late. I saw that you specified your "IA" was an "internal record". At my university, internal records are not disclosed to any outside institutions, even on request. Two of my close friends received an academic warning for cheating that was "internally recorded" and were informed by the conduct office that it would not be reported if any outside institutions were to ask for "IA offenses" (it was a very minor case). Neither of them disclosed this violation (and possibly/likely IA) and both were accepted to relatively highly ranked pharmacy and dental schools and are currently entering their second year.

It was a little unclear to all of us as to whether this offenses even classified as an IA, but neither of them wanted to ask. If you're looking to apply out, then I would definitely suggest you reach out to your conduct office and verify whether this offense is reported (or whether it even constitutes an IA, as classified by the university).

This is why the AMCAS instructions state that if there is any doubt, one should check with the institution. Not to report a cheating IA compounds a problem to the point where you won't even be able to get admitted to the medical school through the cadaver donation program.

 

[KnightDoc]

To be fair, I think in the case of an "internal warning" they were better off not asking. They were told it would never be disclosed to any outside sources and if they were technically ignorant, then they could truthfully claim they were unaware it was an IA (if it even was) on the very unlikely chance it was somehow discovered.

To briefly summarize the incident, a third member stole an exam from the professors room and realized he could not figure out the problems himself. He took a few questions to two friends of mine and asked for their help without disclosing the source. My friends answered one wrong, but of course the same problem showed up on the test and all three wrote the same wrong answer. The third member was suspended and later expelled. My two friends got a warning and were required to retake the exam, in which they scored very highly (proving that they did know the material).

Based on the descriptions of IAs on SDN, it seems to classify as it involved student conduct and academic affairs, a written notice to them from the college Dean formally stating that it was a warning and would escalate any subsequent incidents they had, and had an official note placed in their student record. It could not be appealed. However, it would never be disclosed, even if another institution specifically asked about IAs.

To be honest, the specific wording the committee used made me think it was an IA, but the committee was trying to make it clear that they both could get away with not reporting it. In fact, the very professor that reported them told them "don't worry about this, as long as you don't disclose it no will ever know" and even wrote both their graduate school recommendations (which were very strong). He specifically told them that he made no mention of their academic warning.

The bolded is NEVER true. Making yourself wilfully, "technically" ignorant of your reporting obligation will never be a viable excuse.

This is why @LizzyM is strongly advising checking if there is any doubt whatsoever. It's a total no-lose proposition, versus not asking and not telling, which would only lead to heartache and despair if a required disclosure was not made, in good faith ignorance, and was later discovered.

 

[KnightDoc]

I understand that many adcoms and you will not agree with me on this, but I definitely support my friends' approach to this issue. There was a consistent implication throughout this whole process that their warning counted as an IA but would not need to be reported. There were many lines of evidence to support their belief it was not an IA (and even more to show it was an IA). The same professor that reported them wrote them recommendation letters and pretty much implicitly told them not to ask too many questions about a minor issue.

Had they clarified the issue and found out it was an IA, then they would have been obligated to report it. They absolutely made the right call, and are now attending wonderful graduate schools, on a good scholarship.

I will say, however, that this is situation-specific advice. It's very rare that you'll end up with a (potential) IA as minor as this, and one that the institution makes clear it won't report as well as implies you don't even have to report. In the vast majority of cases, I agree with you @KnightDoc.

Don't get me wrong. People like your friend will be fine 9 times out of 10 when the IA does not have to be reported. In those cases, it truly does not matter whether or not they check.

It's the 10th time, when it does have to be reported, that people like your friend will be totally screwed if they don't report when they had to, and it is later discovered. "Oops, I honestly thought it wasn't a reportable IA" isn't going to cut it at that point, and not checking ahead of time sets up the possibility of that happening.

 

[DoctorFate]

Don't get me wrong. People like your friend will be fine 9 times out of 10 when the IA does not have to be reported. In those cases, it truly does not matter whether or not they check.

It's the 10th time, when it does have to be reported, that people like your friend will be totally screwed if they don't report when they had to, and it is later discovered. "Oops, I honestly thought it wasn't a reportable IA" isn't going to cut it at that point, and not checking ahead of time sets up the possibility of that happening.

Definitely true! At any rate, OP I urge you to read these past few posts and clarify your IA and whether a notice on your "internal record" at your institutional is even disclosed to outside sources. If you've already disclosed it, then no point in wondering. Good luck!

 

[yokiguz]

I gave an open note take home exam and had a student plagiarize a website (a resource online) in response to an essay question. Based on that experience, I might be more harsh on cheating during a take home exam than other adcoms might be. YMMV.

It is harsh to say, "we won't admit this person because of this behavior" but to admit them is to say that such behavior is acceptable in our community. This could be a long discussion in an adcom meeting.

This comment made me realize how interesting being an ADCOM could be at times. Amazon Prime documentary coming soon?

 

[bcf_lasagna]

I just read through this thread and I’m surprised at how many accidental plagiarism incidents on open note tests have taken place since March 2020. Not to say that Covid is an excuse, but many (including myself) were bad note takers I guess.

the OP has his home med school at least, and if they don’t mind an IA then they must have one of those adcoms that believe honest mistakes aren’t a dealbreaker, which I hope isn’t rare 😂

 

[candbgirl]

Don’t applicants have to verify/state that everything on the application is true anymore? Or has that gone by the wayside and anything can be entered in the primary? Not just in this thread but over the last several weeks there seem to have been so many instances of what is basically falsification of information in primaries and secondaries. Some times it was a mistake and sometimes it was deliberate or extremely careless. It just seems strange to me.

 

[LizzyM]

Don’t applicants have to verify/state that everything on the application is true anymore? Or has that gone by the wayside and anything can be entered in the primary? Not just in this thread but over the last several weeks there seem to have been so many instances of what is basically falsification of information in primaries and secondaries. Some times it was a mistake and sometimes it was deliberate or extremely careless. It just seems strange to me.

When future hours could be submitted, things degenerated from there.

 

[KnightDoc]

Don’t applicants have to verify/state that everything on the application is true anymore? Or has that gone by the wayside and anything can be entered in the primary? Not just in this thread but over the last several weeks there seem to have been so many instances of what is basically falsification of information in primaries and secondaries. Some times it was a mistake and sometimes it was deliberate or extremely careless. It just seems strange to me.

You're literally reading my mind. 🙂

Maybe I'm just being naive in making sure to dot "i"s and cross "t"s and do everything the right way, and that by this time next year I will have learned a painful lesson and all of my activities will magically become much more impressive and encompass many more hours on my reapplication. 😎

Either adcoms care about truth or integrity on everything, even Uber hours, or it's okay to cheat on exams and alter charts when necessary to save your hide. At least to me, once it's okay to cross that line, who among us really gets to judge where the line is?

There are no genuine mistakes here. In over 2 years on SDN, I've never seen the post "I claimed 50 hours when I actually worked 500, should I correct it?" or "I accidentally wrote that I have an IA when I have never been in trouble in my life -- what should I do now?"

 

[candbgirl]

Yes and it’s not only filling in the application with erroneous or false info but then they sign attesting to everything being true. Of course once you do one, it’s not so much of a leap to do the other. It took me weeks to complete and proof my application and then more time having others read and proof it. And then when I submitted I was a nervous wreck. Times change I guess. I still believe that most applicants follow the rules and have excellent application they are proud of.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yes and it’s not only filling in the application with erroneous or false info but then they sign attesting to everything being true. Of course once you do one, it’s not so much of a leap to do the other. It took me weeks to complete and proof my application and then more time having others read and proof it. And then when I submitted I was a nervous wreck. Times change I guess. I still believe that most applicants follow the rules and have excellent application they are proud of.

Yup. And the crazy thing is that the things people are fudging are so minor that there is no reason to even go there. The simple fact is that things are so crazy competitive nowadays, with over 60,000 people jockeying for around 22,000 spots, that people feel pressure to do this. 999 will get away with it, and 1 person will ruin their future over something that didn't even matter in the first place.

 

[deleted1080380]

Preface, I don't want this to give you false hope, BUT anecdotally I know someone who applied with a similar but worse IA last year (got it during COVID learning, but it was more on the borderline of actual cheating, but they were actually innocent but still got the IA; ~30 people were busted in this incident) and got accepted to a few stat-loving T10s.

No idea about the rest of his app or if it was on his transcript, but he wouldn't STFU about his 526 MCAT after scoring high, and then had a breakdown to our friend group after he got his IA. He didn't get an F or academic penalties that I know of. He's at NYU now. Not sure how high your MCAT is but if it's utra high then I'd wager you could still apply to the schools that care.

 

[bcf_lasagna]

I see where you're coming from, and, again, I completely understand if you disagree with me.

However, the truth is, small things can sometimes matter a lot and it's in an individual's interests to understand the impacts of all of their actions. I'll give you an example from a high school friend designated as "I". When I was in High School, I received an in-school suspension (ISS, 3 days). After several conferences with our counseling office and administrative office, I discovered that our district's policy was to never disclose ISS's to any outside institution (our district chose to categorize in-school suspensions as an extended detention for external purposes since detentions are not reported or required to be disclosed, although internally they were suspensions). When it came time to complete I's college application I chose not to mark that I had ever received a suspension. Similar to my friends' IA, I's school counselors repeatedly told I that "no one would ever know unless I chose to disclose it", implying that I's suspension should technically count but that I would be better off just marking "no disciplinary action".

I received a 100k merit (full tuition) scholarship to the college I ultimately chose to attend. I later found out that I's college almost never awarded such scholarships to students with disciplinary action. This college was perfect for I (given certain ties I had to the university), and had I chosen to disclose, it's very possible that I would have a large amount of debt right now. Instead, I has graduated summa sum laude with no debt at all (and a small profit, in fact).

I think it's always important to understand what risks you're taking, how likely they are to used against you, and proceed accordingly. Goro implicitly acknowledged this in the "Urgent Help" thread when he stated "Why pour gasoline on a fire??? Let this go." Sure, it was a minor issue, but that thread's OP likely had more to lose by bringing his carelessness to the adcom's attention than simply hoping it would never be caught (which as almost every poster there said, is by far the most likely outcome).

I'd like to add another example, from my time serving on the conduct board of my university. 5 students were found by an RA, who noted that he believed all 5 were drunk. Me, 2 other students, a faculty member, and a staff member had to decide whether to find them responsible for underage drinking. During a break, I had a discussion with these 5 students, and they made it clear they were going to confess. Rather than suggesting an action for them, I simply told them of the standard of proof we required to convict, if they said "not responsible". With this information, all 5 chose to plead "not responsible". It was very clear to all of us they were responsible (and given my conversation with them, I am certain), but proof did not meet our minimum standard. Thus, these students were all able to avoid formal disciplinary action (which they would have to report) and a 6 month probation.

I understand and commend your standards and morality if you always choose the "right" path. I, however, will always recommend that people follow the path that is in their best interests and is reasonably tangential to the truth, as long as they are not directly harming anyone else.

It doesn’t sound like this would work with med school admissions at least, because they ask for violations that are not on the transcript too. Apparently if I’m not mistaken schools ask for dean’s certification letters once they’ve accepted someone, so there seems to be no way out of it. I get the argument if the record is expunged but maybe the dean remembers whatever the student got in trouble for and decides to expose him for it.

Plus, I would say that there’s a reason why there’s an essay for IA applicants. The vast majority of the time schools will look to how the student reflects on their mistake instead of an instant auto-rejection. Now of course, some IAs are more serious than others, and that’s why the details matter. Even more than details though, one has to write about what they’ve done to ensure what happened doesn’t repeat. I even know someone who got caught cheating on online homework in their junior year, and received a suspension and failure of the course. He got at least one interview that he attended last week.

The main argument is was trying to go with is that not reporting an IA and then being discovered to not have reported IS an auto-rejection.

 

[LizzyM]

My point was, there are certain violations that are not disclosed even on dean’s certification letters. I think disclosing such IAs can harm students much more than reporting would help them. I gave two examples myself. My friends in those examples now attend highly ranked pharmacy and dental schools. Now, to be fair, these do tend to be more minor and its possible medical schools are more meticulous with checking, but I doubt that.

Pay your money and take your chances. If an applicant attests that the application is true and complete and it turns out to be untrue and incomplete it is an automatic rejection everywhere. That seems like a very high risk proposition and essentially dishonest which further indicates that the applicant is a dishonest person who will twist the facts to serve their best interest rather than always being open, honest and transparent.

 

[Goro]

My point was, there are certain violations that are not disclosed even on dean’s certification letters. I think disclosing such IAs can harm students much more than reporting would help them. I gave two examples myself. My friends in those examples now attend highly ranked pharmacy and dental schools. Now, to be fair, these do tend to be more minor and its possible medical schools are more meticulous with checking, but I doubt that.

You'd be surprised at the number of times an applicant has been outed by a LOR writer who wrote something like "Msummer has grown so much as a person since the cheating incident".

 

[bcf_lasagna]

I'm fully aware of that. My two friends both took care to ensure that such a line was not included anywhere in their recommendations. I, similarly, made sure not have any reference to a suspension when applying to college. I recognize that many will not be able to verify these LORs and other documents to the same level though.

Even then, like I mentioned earlier, med schools will more often than not require deans certification letters as an academic background check to ensure the student is in good conduct standing.

I’m not too sure if other health professional schools like dental, nursing, etc. do this or if they just check transcripts. At the very least I know NursingCAS removed the academic infraction question from the primary app but I digress.

How did you verify what the letter writers wrote down? I’m sure most wouldn’t do that

 

[KnightDoc]

It's honestly not pretty hard. I think most people are just afraid to ask.

Yup. It goes along with the theme of the entire thread. Why would anyone expect that someone willing to certify that the information in an application is honest and complete when it isn't wouldn't waive a right to see a LOR and then examine it to make sure it doesn't contain unwanted information? 😎

 

[DoctorFate]

Yup. It goes along with the theme of the entire thread. Why would anyone expect that someone willing to certify that the information in an application is honest and complete when it isn't wouldn't waive a right to see a LOR and then examine it to make sure it doesn't contain unwanted information? 😎

Honest answer: people who have something to hide and think the risk of hiding it outweighs the risk of disclosing.
Glad I'm not in this situation rn tho. I saw the stress it caused my friends, even if it ultimately did work out.

 

[bcf_lasagna]

I think that would likely have been the wrong approach, but guess we'll never know. I think my situational judgement skills might be a little better than yours though... just a hunch 😉

If the scenario is true where people get caught lying months or years after matriculation just to get kicked out, and would have been given a fair look if they just reported truthfully, then I would say it’s the right approach. Plus there will be other health profession schools and careers that arent as competitive and would likely be more forgiving of a one time mistake.

 

[LizzyM]

I have always been of the opinion that many students vastly overestimate the omniscience of medical schools and, to a smaller extent, the penalties they will receive.

Oh well, in the years to come my friends and I will find out if we are mistaken.

But to repeat, neither of your friends was admitted to medical school so whatever we might find out as they move through their schooling is not entirely relevant to this pre-med forum.

Liars and cheats will lie and cheat through the process. Anyone who is neither a liar nor a cheat should be honest about their slip, disclose it and expect to be treated fairly.

 

[KnightDoc]

But to repeat, neither of your friends was admitted to medical school so whatever we might find out as they move through their schooling is not entirely relevant to this pre-med forum.

Liars and cheats will lie and cheat through the process. Anyone who is neither a liar nor a cheat should be honest about their slip, disclose it and expect to be treated fairly.

THIS^^^^^^^.

The risk/reward is typically that you are unlikely to be caught, but the consequences are likely to be harsh if you are, so most rational people will decide not to take the risk. Of course, if the thing you are lying about or hiding is highly likely to be disqualifying if discovered, then the calculus changes, assuming you are willing to risk the time and money to see if you can go undiscovered through becoming an attending.

The stakes are just too high for most, but, as @LizzyM said before, you pays your money and takes your chances. I enjoy sleeping way too much for this game to be attractive to me. Thankfully, it's not something I have to deal with. YMMV.

 

[Current-big-pharma-shill]

Out of curiosity, why do you think schools like Drexel or Albany would be more forgiving? Do you think that they're desperate for applicants?

To add an n=1, I have similar stats and stronger ECs than OP with a much less impactful IA and my application thus far is 3 Pre-II Rs at T20s and 4 IIs across the rest of the spectrum. I obviously don’t know if it is the IA causing the Rs at the T20s, but just wanted to give an example of two things:

1) Applying only T20 would be foolish even as a competitive applicant

2) Listing an IA is not ‘Suicide’

 

[DoctorFate]

THIS^^^^^^^.

The risk/reward is typically that you are unlikely to be caught, but the consequences are likely to be harsh if you are, so most rational people will decide not to take the risk. Of course, if the thing you are lying about or hiding is highly likely to be disqualifying if discovered, then the calculus changes, assuming you are willing to risk the time and money to see if you can go undiscovered through becoming an attending.

The stakes are just too high for most, but, as @LizzyM said before, you pays your money and takes your chances. I enjoy sleeping way too much for this game to be attractive to me. Thankfully, it's not something I have to deal with. YMMV.

Didn't you say earlier that you might "forget" to check the reapplicant box at schools if asked in a future cycle...

 

[DoctorFate]

To add an n=1, I have similar stats and stronger ECs than OP with a much less impactful IA and my application thus far is 3 Pre-II Rs at T20s and 4 IIs across the rest of the spectrum. I obviously don’t know if it is the IA causing the Rs at the T20s, but just wanted to give an example of two things:

1) Applying only T20 would be foolish even as a competitive applicant

2) Listing an IA is not ‘Suicide’

Also, just generally wondering: Me and all of my friends applied to many T20s, both last year and this year. The first rejection we all got (around 10 of us) was in December. This year none of us have gotten a rejection yet (different friends, but still around 10). There's a decent amount of diversity in our test scores and gpa and extracurriculars.

Can an IA normally lead to early rejections? Or does it usually just change your priority to the bottom of the application pile?

 

[Goro]

Also, just generally wondering: Me and all of my friends applied to many T20s, both last year and this year. The first rejection we all got (around 10 of us) was in December. This year none of us have gotten a rejection yet (different friends, but still around 10). There's a decent amount of diversity in our test scores and gpa and extracurriculars.

Can an IA normally lead to early rejections? Or does it usually just change your priority to the bottom of the application pile?

Depends upon the IA! They're not all the same.

 

[KnightDoc]

Didn't you say earlier that you might "forget" to check the reapplicant box at schools if asked in a future cycle...

Yup. And, if I decided to do that, it would be with my eyes wide open, weighing the risk of getting caught against the potential consequences. In that particular case, I'd justify it by telling myself it's an inappropriate question they are not entitled to have answered, and I'd be perfectly willing to live with the result.

I'm not saying I'd lie in that case, because I'm not sure an honest answer would really hurt me, but, if I did, it would be because the risk of getting caught would be so tiny, and, as I said before, it would be because I don't think they are entitled to the answer, not because I think the answer would kill me.

TBH, this is really a non-issue for me. I honestly cannot imagine there is a good school for me that I haven't already applied to. If I end up being a reapplicant, it will be because I have a weakness that will have to be addressed. After addressing it, I'd probably just reapply to all the same schools. I applied to enough schools that I don't think I left any good ones for my next round.

 

[KnightDoc]

That is certainly true. I assumed pharmacy and dental school were similar enough in admissions verifications that it would a point of comparison, but perhaps not. However, I still largely stand by what I said. A year ago, I began using SDN pretty frequently, and I kept seeing this widespread belief that medical schools are excellent at weeding out liars. Out of curiosity I made it a point all of my PIs (three) as well as many of my friends PIs if they had been contacted by medical schools for any verification purposes, even when they hadn't written a recommendation letter. None were, even once (between all of them, about 40 of their students went to medical school in the past four years) were ever contacted by a medical school. My volunteer coordinator has been working in her position for two years, and overseen hundreds of volunteers (we're a very large program). She told me she was contacted by a medical school for verification three times, and in all those cases it was because her recommendation letter directly opposed their amcas description. She was never contacted purely for verification purposes with no glaring reason for suspicion attached.

To be honest with you, half the reason I write this is so that the adcoms on here are more aware of how easy it is to slip between the cracks. If schools were more stringent with verification, then perhaps everyone I know that exaggerated hours or straight grossly exaggerated shadowing experiences (turned 1 doctor, 1 time, 1 specialty into 5 doctors, 5 times, 5 specialties) would actually get caught. But as far as I can tell right now, medical schools are quite rarely verifying anything other than transcripts (or at least, successfully verifying).

Also, on a related side note, 1/5 to 1/3 of residents in multiple specialties have lied about publications or AOA status in residency apps, and as far as I can tell, next to none have been kicked out of residency for it:

Prevalence and Types of Misrepresentation of Publication Record by Pathology Residency Applicants

Context.—Publication misrepresentation among residency applicants has been demonstrated in various specialties. This study examines the prevalence of publication misrepresentation among US-trained and non–US-trained pathology residency applicants.Objective.—To determine the prevalence of...

meridian.allenpress.com

http://www.rimed.org/rimedicaljournal/2019/03/2019-03-08-feller.pdf

The final data point in the trio with a (possibly) minor IA that they will not report is applying this cycle (no, it's actually not me). They did not disclose anything. Let's see what happens. In the meantime, I'm going to stop posting on this topic, as I think I've exhausted everything there is to say.

What you're saying here sounds very consistent with what adcoms have been telling us. People lie (you haven't said how often in your sample), and are rarely caught, but, just in your small part of the world, it sounds like 3 people might have had acceptances rescinded over unnecessary exaggerations in their EC descriptions.

My takeaway is that the small, stupid things people typically fudge are deemed insignificant by adcoms, and the lying probably doesn't help the applicants. They would either be successful without lying or aren't successful in spite of it. When adcoms care, they check, and when they check and discover inconsistencies, there are disproportionate consequences because they don't tolerate liars, given possible terrible consequences in the future, for everyone, of allowing known liars into the club.

 

[bcf_lasagna]

Also, just generally wondering: Me and all of my friends applied to many T20s, both last year and this year. The first rejection we all got (around 10 of us) was in December. This year none of us have gotten a rejection yet (different friends, but still around 10). There's a decent amount of diversity in our test scores and gpa and extracurriculars.

Can an IA normally lead to early rejections? Or does it usually just change your priority to the bottom of the application pile?

I see that Goro just mentioned it too but the last question is kind of a fallacy and it implies that all IAs are the same. They COULD lead you to getting rejected early but it seems to be based on three things.
1) How long ago and/or how severe was the action
2) How the applicant can write about it. This seems to be the most important one. Taking responsibility, writing about how they’ve become stronger, etc.
3) If the applicant is otherwise admissible (I.e. do they have a good GPA and MCAT)

so to answer the last question, I would say neither one. The “bottom of the pile” phrase is one I’ve seen in the past, but from randoms, so probably other premeds

Dr. Ryan Gray has good material regarding IAs and how to address them

 

[Pyroman]

I see that Goro just mentioned it too but the last question is kind of a fallacy and it implies that all IAs are the same. They COULD lead you to getting rejected early but it seems to be based on three things.
1) How long ago and/or how severe was the action
2) How the applicant can write about it. This seems to be the most important one. Taking responsibility, writing about how they’ve become stronger, etc.
3) If the applicant is otherwise admissible (I.e. do they have a good GPA and MCAT)

so to answer the last question, I would say neither one. The “bottom of the pile” phrase is one I’ve seen in the past, but from randoms, so probably other premeds

Dr. Ryan Gray has good material regarding IAs and how to address them

OP here- I think that if these 3 factors are considered by the competitive schools I applied to, I may not be as screwed given my explanation and overall admissibility side of things. I looked at Dr. Gray's video and had a Dean I am close with review my explanation.