Recent Response from the ACPE- Leave Pharmacy?

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False.

Apparently Dr. Boyer doesn't know what a free market system is.
The current educational system is anything but a free market system. Instead, it is very much a government-controlled and -fueled system.

A free market system would be one in which the federal student loan system did not exist and the actual market demand set the number of schools AND costs.

@HobbitJane
You should write him back and tell his dumb a$$ that.

I guess Owlbright was mocking ACPE with those comments though.

agreed with what you said above. It is not that Dr. Boyer is that stupid, they think that we are that stupid instead 🙂

 

[KARM12]

It is not too late for you. You have the credentials. Once you are in this profession, you will realize things are not going to change. People have been talking about clinical pharmacy for the last 30 years. The job market will be much worse when you graduate because all of these new schools will be pumping out their first class. They are still growing. Nothing is going to change that.

Don't try to stop the flood with your hands. Get out while you still can.

I have to agree with this. I started pharmacy school 10 yrs ago and nothing has really changed. If anything, most hospitals have adopted the "do more with less" mentality. Just because you spend 200K on a degree, it doesn't entitle you to a job, that is reality.

 

[Amicable Angora]

Due to my current feelings of uncertainty regarding pharmacy school, I decided to reach out to the ACPE for assistance. Below you will find the director's response and my original email. I have been calling hospitals in a 75-mile radius surrounding the pharmacy school I will attend in the fall. I have been told that many hospitals are no longer hiring pharmacy interns. At this point, I am wondering if pharmacy students should look into writing their congressmen, the Secretary of Education (Arne Duncan), and maybe a media source (20/20) about the oversaturation issue. Any ideas or comments are welcomed. I figure that without work experience as a pharmacy intern, I will not be able to get a residency and hospital position. If prospects are this dim, I might as well leave because I currently do not know anyone on the inside. I'm tired of walking in a perpetual state of indecisiveness and depression about my future.

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Dear XXXXX(me):

Your email to csinfo was forwarded to me for a response.

You raise some very thought-provoking points in your email. I am sorry you feel so down about the profession as you become a first year student. Truly, you might want to reconsider the profession given your feelings as expressed in your email.

Indeed the number of graduates has grown, as have the number of schools, as have the sizes of the classes. ACPE has no control of any of these things, only that the programs that are offered meet the ACPE accreditation standards that ensure quality pharmacy education. If enrollment grow, then all resources necessary to support those enrollments are expected. It would be a violation of antitrust laws for ACPE to limit any of the things you suggest should be done. Our economy operators on a free market system and such centralized controls are not allowed. It is true that in the past a degree in pharmacy and the licensure that followed to practice pharmacy offered almost any graduate a position; such is not that case and positions will go those most qualified, as defined now by a variety of factors.

Best regards,

Greg B.

J. Gregory Boyer, Ph.D.
Assistant Executive Director &
Director, Professional Degree Program Accreditation
Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education
135 South LaSalle Street, Suite 4100
Chicago, IL 60603-4810
[email protected]
312-664-3575 (office)
312-664-4652 (fax)

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From: XXXX (me)
Sent: XXXXX
To: csinfo
Subject: Petition for change


As an incoming first year pharmacy student, my heart is heavy with grief and regret. Over the last eight years I have sacrificed a lot of the teenage and college experience in pursuit of being admitted into pharmacy school. The one thing that motivated me to work hard towards graduating with a 4.0, forgoing sleep and socialization, was my dream of having a stable job where I could help others.

After taking my entrance exam (PCAT), writing a series of essays for applications and preparing for interviews, I discovered that the field of pharmacy is saturated and slowly dying.

Even with work, pharmacy students have to take out unsubsidized loans of over $160,000 to fund their education. Upon graduating, these students must compete amongst each other and former unemployed students for non-existent jobs. Imagine trying to pay off $160,000 in student loans and interest on a minimum-wage salary after obtaining a doctoral degree. At this point these students become slaves to their loans and enter a state of severe depression.

Educational institutions are opening schools that are not needed and accepting sub-par students into their programs. These greedy pharmacy schools push a false narrative to the public without telling people the truth about the horrible state of pharmacy. In order to save pharmacy I believe strict changes are needed.

The federal government and pharmacy associations should:

1. Prohibit the opening of pharmacy schools for at least 50 years
2. Reduce class sizes by 50% to allow the market to stabilize

Pharmacy schools should require ALL candidates who are applying to have the following:

1. A bachelor’s degree from an accredited American university including all pharmacy prerequisites with a grade of at least a B (3.0)
2. A PCAT composite score of at least 85
3. One year/200 hours of pharmacy experience
4. A history of volunteer work and community service

The strict guidelines will ensure that only the most skilled and dedicated students enter this field, while alleviating issues of saturation. Please make changes to the current system. The United States needs to operate in a sustainable and ethical manner instead of endless cycles of speculation and financial crisis.

Sincerely,

XXXXX (me)

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...rning-out-too-many-grads/stories/201310270094

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/

Not a bad idea, but for example, the PCAT score requirement is way too high. A 70% might be reasonable.

 

[confettiflyer]

Do any of you geniuses have data to correlate high PCAT scores with actual employment outcomes and academic success?

 

[tungsten87]

sadly, the only thing that will change this over saturation, without government intervention of course, is for individuals to recognize that the Pharm.D. is a terrible investment at many schools and to not apply.

 

[JakeSill]

Nursing is doing even worse and my friends in the field are still getting jobs but the education is cheaper though.

 

[oldstock]

Do any of you geniuses have data to correlate high PCAT scores with actual employment outcomes and academic success?

what is/are your point(s) of asking that question ?? Ask Steve Jobs if he scored high on any test or even graduated from a school 🙂 lol

In life, most highly educated people with advanced degrees are slaves to the ones that have lesser degrees or even do not have any at all. Academic performance and/or achievement never correlate with life success at all, if you care to look throughout history.

But testing/grading/scoring is as old as civilization because it is one of the very few objective ways to equalize and differentiate the best from the rest, whether for admission purposes or the measurement of academic/professional competency. Schools around the world all use some sorts of testing for admission. I understand that you might imply here that PCAT is useless in pharmacy admission ?? If so, this is exactly the thing people who are supporting or benefiting from the lower standards of pharmacy admission like to hear. IMHO PCAT is the only constant in the admission process because it is standardized.

Actual employment data/outcomes are not black and white. People with great connections/hookups/favors/great BS skills get accepted for the jobs over the ones who are actually qualified all the time. The point is there are many factors playing in the case of employment data, not just PCAT or high academic performance/achievement.

As for PCAT scores and in-pharmacy school academic performance, I do not look to find the data to support the correlation but I believe they do correlate. Remember that even with available studies, for or against, we still need to examine/cross-examine/peer review to confirm the validity of those studies, not just taking their results blindly. Also studies or not, we have SAT/ACT for college admission, MCAT for med school admission, DAT for dental, LSAT for laws, etc. Ask yourself if those exams would correlate with academic performance in those respective schools. Or with the actual employment outcomes of those professionals in real life.

Yet we have to have some sort of objective ways for admission, i.e. standardized testing, because it is fair and transparent for every applicants in the admission process. In fact, it is the only thing that is fair and transparent in the entire admission process. If you want to go to a school, you have to take tests. If you are in school, you have to take tests. If you want to graduate, you have to take tests. If you want to have a license to practice your profession, you have to take tests. Is there any kind of guarantee in life that you would get a job after you have passed all those tests ?? is there any guarantee that a high PCAT score person would not be lacking of and become complacent in pharmacy school ?? Nooooooo......

Human is very complicated. Asking whether or not PCAT would correlate with actual employement outcomes and academic success is funny imho 🙂

 

[oldstock]

Nursing is doing even worse and my friends in the field are still getting jobs but the education is cheaper though.

yup they do not 200K in student loan debts for sure.

 

[confettiflyer]

🙂

TL;DR...can you truncate that, i'm too busy for this ****.

 

[oldstock]

TL;DR...can you truncate that, i'm too busy for this ****.

I wish... if you like talking **** then I guess you would actually enjoy reading **** Sorry I had to spell all out for you. Again I understand now the reasons why the PCAT is including a vocabulary section and a reading section. I support the PCAT 🙂

 

[PharmtoCS]

sadly, the only thing that will change this over saturation, without government intervention of course, is for individuals to recognize that the Pharm.D. is a terrible investment at many schools and to not apply.

When I tell others that I plan to become a pharmacist, a common response that I get, especially from engineers and people who know engineers well, is that "it's a stable job since we'll always need pharmacists." The pharmacy profession cannot be outsourced (at least for now), but it can definitely be glutted with graduates from new schools who have thought that the ACA (higher patient volume), provider status, MTM, etc. would gain them job stability.

Those in the engineering and information technology fields have been worried about outsourcing and H1B workers taking their jobs for much lower pay, but demand for US-educated workers is red-hot and continuing to boom because companies realized they cannot save as much money as they had hoped by sending these jobs overseas. Salaries in some fields are even starting to overtake that of pharmacists. This would be an argument against the common belief that 'all' fields other than pharmacy are saturated.

 

[tungsten87]

When I tell others that I plan to become a pharmacist, a common response that I get, especially from engineers and people who know engineers well, is that "it's a stable job since we'll always need pharmacists." The pharmacy profession cannot be outsourced (at least for now), but it can definitely be glutted with graduates from new schools who have thought that the ACA (higher patient volume), provider status, MTM, etc. would gain them job stability, of course

Those in the engineering and information technology fields have been worried about outsourcing and H1B workers taking their jobs for much lower pay, but demand for US-educated workers is red-hot and continuing to boom because companies realized they cannot save as much money as they had hoped by sending these jobs overseas. Salaries in some fields are even starting to overtake that of pharmacists. This would be an argument against the common belief that 'all' fields other than pharmacy are saturated.

A few things:

Engineers have the potential to take out minimal loans (scholarships and in-state tuition can make undergraduate education VERY cheap - also, can definitely cover living expenses if they work during school) - this makes it a very low risk investment in terms of both money and time. PharmD takes at least 6 years (8 years if you do it right... my opinion).

Pharm.D. will cost a pretty penny - i worked throughout pharmacy school with a nice paying job at a cheap in-state school and still graduated with ~110K in debt, which is a lot. Many of my classmates graduated with > 160K. If you consider interest it becomes very difficult to pay off, regardless of your family/house situation.

Job market is OK, not great but not terrible either. I think many would agree that the demand for pharmacists is more likely to decrease than increase in relation to supply. It is just a stupid investment to spend four additional years in school, ~150K (some people are taking out over 200/300K in loans, lunacy in my opinion) for a career with poor future job prospects. Again, my opinion. I would not recommend this profession to friends/family unless they were SUPER passionate about it.

 

[Amicable Angora]

what is/are your point(s) of asking that question ?? Ask Steve Jobs if he scored high on any test or even graduated from a school 🙂 lol

In life, most highly educated people with advanced degrees are slaves to the ones that have lesser degrees or even do not have any at all. Academic performance and/or achievement never correlate with life success at all, if you care to look throughout history.

But testing/grading/scoring is as old as civilization because it is one of the very few objective ways to equalize and differentiate the best from the rest, whether for admission purposes or the measurement of academic/professional competency. Schools around the world all use some sorts of testing for admission. I understand that you might imply here that PCAT is useless in pharmacy admission ?? If so, this is exactly the thing people who are supporting or benefiting from the lower standards of pharmacy admission like to hear. IMHO PCAT is the only constant in the admission process because it is standardized.

Actual employment data/outcomes are not black and white. People with great connections/hookups/favors/great BS skills get accepted for the jobs over the ones who are actually qualified all the time. The point is there are many factors playing in the case of employment data, not just PCAT or high academic performance/achievement.

As for PCAT scores and in-pharmacy school academic performance, I do not look to find the data to support the correlation but I believe they do correlate. Remember that even with available studies, for or against, we still need to examine/cross-examine/peer review to confirm the validity of those studies, not just taking their results blindly. Also studies or not, we have SAT/ACT for college admission, MCAT for med school admission, DAT for dental, LSAT for laws, etc. Ask yourself if those exams would correlate with academic performance in those respective schools. Or with the actual employment outcomes of those professionals in real life.

Yet we have to have some sort of objective ways for admission, i.e. standardized testing, because it is fair and transparent for every applicants in the admission process. In fact, it is the only thing that is fair and transparent in the entire admission process. If you want to go to a school, you have to take tests. If you are in school, you have to take tests. If you want to graduate, you have to take tests. If you want to have a license to practice your profession, you have to take tests. Is there any kind of guarantee in life that you would get a job after you have passed all those tests ?? is there any guarantee that a high PCAT score person would not be lacking of and become complacent in pharmacy school ?? Nooooooo......

Human is very complicated. Asking whether or not PCAT would correlate with actual employement outcomes and academic success is funny imho 🙂

If I had a choice I would make the PCAT worth at least 50% of an applicant's application.

 

[HobbitJane]

@confettiflyer I came to this site to obtain information. Upon reflecting on the content in the posts and looking at other sites, I decided to take action by writing to someone, who regardless of his jurisdiction over pharmacy schools, has more power than me. Instead of writing pessimistic posts lamenting the dilemma in which I have placed myself, I decided to take action. In your eyes, my attempt was futile, but at least the director replied—or someone on his behalf—and he blatantly said move on to another field. Forgive me if I am wrong, but the roles that you speak of are already occupied by other professionals. During my undergraduate internship, I worked as part of an ACO, and many of the decisions came down to ROI.


@Irelia UA was considered in the top 10 when I last checked; the school is prestigious and well established (founded in 1947). I had cold feet once in the past, but after taking the PCAT and doing well in my interview, I decided to just believe that I would be one of the lucky ones who would get a job with intelligence and hard work. Even though school has not started, I feel like I am behind. Some of my classmates already have jobs with facilities that can/will make them interns once our class is eligible to apply for intern licenses. I do not have connections, an extroverted personality or Hollywood looks to further me ahead. I feel a sense of hopelessness because I am young and I will miss out on life to pursue a career with an uncertain future.

 

[oldstock]

@confettiflyer I came to this site to obtain information. Upon reflecting on the content in the posts and looking at other sites, I decided to take action by writing to someone, who regardless of his jurisdiction over pharmacy schools, has more power than me. Instead of writing pessimistic posts lamenting the dilemma in which I have placed myself, I decided to take action. In your eyes, my attempt was futile, but at least the director replied—or someone on his behalf—and he blatantly said move on to another field. Forgive me if I am wrong, but the roles that you speak of are already occupied by other professionals. During my undergraduate internship, I worked as part of an ACO, and many of the decisions came down to ROI.


@Irelia UA was considered in the top 10 when I last checked; the school is prestigious and well established (founded in 1947). I had cold feet once in the past, but after taking the PCAT and doing well in my interview, I decided to just believe that I would be one of the lucky ones who would get a job with intelligence and hard work. Even though school has not started, I feel like I am behind. Some of my classmates already have jobs with facilities that can/will make them interns once our class is eligible to apply for intern licenses. I do not have connections, an extroverted personality or Hollywood looks to further me ahead. I feel a sense of hopelessness because I am young and I will miss out on life to pursue a career with an uncertain future. I have not had a real vacation since 2005 and my social life is nothing but old memories. When my old friends invited me out, I would decline and study, now nobody calls or texts me anymore. If I died today, no one would care. I am literally stuck in so many areas of my life, I never knew things would be this bad. 🙁

very well said !!

I am in the same boat as you are. Everyone made mistakes. I made mistakes. You made mistakes. The matter is what you are going to do after your mistakes. I decide that I am going to take the MCAT and applying to med schools.

 

[HobbitJane]

very well said !!

I am in the same boat as you are. Everyone made mistakes. I made mistakes. You made mistakes. The matter is what you are going to do after your mistakes. I decide that I am going to take the MCAT and applying to med schools.

You are right. I will not revisit this issue anymore because it tends to hamper progress and elicit negative emotions. I will shift my focus to working on a back-up plan.

 

[Irelia]

@confettiflyer I came to this site to obtain information. Upon reflecting on the content in the posts and looking at other sites, I decided to take action by writing to someone, who regardless of his jurisdiction over pharmacy schools, has more power than me. Instead of writing pessimistic posts lamenting the dilemma in which I have placed myself, I decided to take action. In your eyes, my attempt was futile, but at least the director replied—or someone on his behalf—and he blatantly said move on to another field. Forgive me if I am wrong, but the roles that you speak of are already occupied by other professionals. During my undergraduate internship, I worked as part of an ACO, and many of the decisions came down to ROI.

@Irelia UA was considered in the top 10 when I last checked; the school is prestigious and well established (founded in 1947). I had cold feet once in the past, but after taking the PCAT and doing well in my interview, I decided to just believe that I would be one of the lucky ones who would get a job with intelligence and hard work. Even though school has not started, I feel like I am behind. Some of my classmates already have jobs with facilities that can/will make them interns once our class is eligible to apply for intern licenses. I do not have connections, an extroverted personality or Hollywood looks to further me ahead. I feel a sense of hopelessness because I am young and I will miss out on life to pursue a career with an uncertain future. I have not had a real vacation since 2005 and my social life is nothing but old memories. When my old friends invited me out, I would decline and study, now nobody calls or texts me anymore. If I died today, no one would care. I am literally stuck in so many areas of my life, I never knew things would be this bad. 🙁

@HobbitJane

Well, from what I gathered, you are from Phoenix right? The thing is I do not really understand how UA COP is ranked top 10...I graduated from University of Arizona and many of my friends are in College of Pharmacy, so I know/heard a lot of stuff about the school.

Like for example last year, acceptance rate was over 50%.... The class size was ~110 and only around 200 students applied. (Maybe it is because they do not use pharmcas but still...it is top 10 school....) Apparently, my friends told me class of 2017 is the dumbest class they have ever seen. (they think each class is getting dumber and dumber lol....) This professor said that he hasn't seen this low of a test score in his class and he has been teaching there over 20+ years lol. Also, UA COP has to accept 90% instate (because of the state law), which I think really hinders diversity/financial resource of a top 10 school. That is why some of my friends and I are not attending UA COP although we got accepted this year. (Also the fact that most graduates end up in retail.) Actually, I was bit surprised that you couldn't find any internship in Tucson because it is a pretty big city.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

If you truly want "a stable job to help people" as you wrote to Dr. Boyer, then look no further than the custodial or service industry.

Something tells me your ego and 4.0 will get in the way though...

 

[HobbitJane]

@Irelia I am curious to know which professor told you that... Feel free to PM me with more details. The university is considered a powerhouse for the sciences and the campus is incredibly beautiful. Unfortunately, the town itself is small and seems to have limited resources in comparison to the Greater Phoenix Metropolitan area. I was told that paid hospital internships are more rare now due to the free labor that students provide and shrinking budgets. Are you still going to attend pharmacy school or are you switching career paths?
Class of 2017
Applications Received 210
Applicants Enrolled 100
Students with a bachelor's degree 64 (64%)
Average Science GPA 3.53 (range 3.02-4.0)
Average Cumulative GPA 3.59 (range 2.97-4.0)
Average PCAT Composite Score 66.7 (range 12-99)
Average PCAT Chemistry Score 75.7 (range 39-99)


@Rockinacoustic Why the snarky comment? I do not bring up my GPA in casual conversation or wear a shirt stating what I have accomplished; however, stating my GPA to strangers serves as proof of my work-ethic and aptitude. I have worked in the service industry, and I would rather not return to such jobs because of poor treatment/harassment and low wages. Most jobs exist in tiers ranging from entry-level to high-skilled. Those who are unable to obtain higher education must perform jobs on the lower end of the spectrum. I am a humble person, but I would like a nice job that will enable me to live comfortably while being a useful member of society.

 

[oldstock]

If you truly want "a stable job to help people" as you wrote to Dr. Boyer, then look no further than the custodial or service industry.

Something tells me your ego and 4.0 will get in the way though...

@Irelia I am curious to know which professor told you that... Feel free to PM me with more details. The university is considered a powerhouse for the sciences and the campus is incredibly beautiful. Unfortunately, the town itself is small and seems to have limited resources in comparison to the Greater Phoenix Metropolitan area. I was told that paid hospital internships are more rare now due to the free labor that students provide and shrinking budgets. Are you still going to attend pharmacy school or are you switching career paths?
Class of 2017
Applications Received 210
Applicants Enrolled 100
Students with a bachelor's degree 64 (64%)
Average Science GPA 3.53 (range 3.02-4.0)
Average Cumulative GPA 3.59 (range 2.97-4.0)
Average PCAT Composite Score 66.7 (range 12-99)
Average PCAT Chemistry Score 75.7 (range 39-99)

someone with a composite PCAT score of 12 percentile still got in I see. Like Amicable Angora said above, I would like to see PCAT weighed as least 50% or more in the admission process. The PCAT should be also redesigned/rewritten to be more difficult (e.g. like the MCAT) to result a wider range of scores of the test takers to further differentiate the candidate. But seeing a person with 12 percentile on the PCAT kindda troubles me. I'd rather see a school which does not require the PCAT at all than a school which accepts students with that low on that PCAT. Just saying...

@Rockinacoustic Why the snarky comment? I do not bring up my GPA in casual conversation or wear a shirt stating what I have accomplished; however, stating my GPA to strangers serves as proof of my work-ethic and aptitude. I have worked in the service industry and as a caregiver to the developmentally-disabled, and I would rather not return to such jobs because of poor treatment/harassment and low wages. Most jobs exist in tiers ranging from entry-level to high-skilled. Those who are unable to obtain higher education must perform jobs on the lower end of the spectrum. I am a humble person, but I would like a nice job that will enable me to live comfortably while being a useful member of society.

very well said !!

 

[Rockinacoustic]

@Rockinacoustic Why the snarky comment? I do not bring up my GPA in casual conversation or wear a shirt stating what I have accomplished; however, stating my GPA to strangers serves as proof of my work-ethic and aptitude. I have worked in the service industry and as a caregiver to the developmentally-disabled, and I would rather not return to such jobs because of poor treatment/harassment and low wages. Most jobs exist in tiers ranging from entry-level to high-skilled. Those who are unable to obtain higher education must perform jobs on the lower end of the spectrum. I am a humble person, but I would like a nice job that will enable me to live comfortably while being a useful member of society.

You should approach any endeavor with this same mentality- Pharmacy is not not the land of pleasant living where real world economics doesn't factor into employment. More than ever the workplace is showing that not all PharmD students are created equal. You either rise to the occasion and position yourself to succeed during your 4 years in school, or you'll be the lame duck with the less desirable job.

 

[BMBiology]

@Irelia
Class of 2017
Applications Received 210
Applicants Enrolled 100

if only 210 students applied and the class size is 100, then I am sure they probably accepted 150 students (about 75% rate)

 

[oldstock]

if only 210 students applied and the class size is 100, then I am sure they probably accepted 150 students (about 75% rate)

That is like everyone, esp in-state, who applied, got in.

 

[oldstock]

You should approach any endeavor with this same mentality- Pharmacy is not not the land of pleasant living where real world economics doesn't factor into employment. More than ever the workplace is showing that not all PharmD students are created equal. You either rise to the occasion and position yourself to succeed during your 4 years in school, or you'll be the lame duck with the less desirable job.

Sorry to chime in...

I guess it is easier to say when people would not have like 150-200k in undischargeable student loans in other careers. It is good for you that you aim for the best and believe you are going to beat the competition. Remember you are going to be in this career for a long time (i.e. ~20-30 yrs). There are only very few spots at the top. The competition will catch up with you eventually...

Remember that in reality, the roads to employment/finding a job are not straight forward. Your credentials are not the only things to get you a job. Many factors are playing such as connections, favors, and even looks... When there are many people gunning for the same jobs, your livehood (don't forget all that student loans and 6-7% interests) is at the mercy of the employers. Does anyone want to put yourself in that situation ??

Even you got a job, you might have to do more and more with less and less as employers will take advatange of more and more schools pumping out more and more new pharmacists who are very likely even more hungrier than you. If you do not take the jobs now with less pays, somebody else will and employers know that and they might replace you with a little lesser qualified candidates if they have to to save a little money. Employers/businesses would be fools to not take advantage of this situation. That is the economic consequences of more and more schools opening. Ignoring that and believing that situation would not affect you now or later in your lifetime in pharmacy and/or somehow you could always beat the compettion and maintain your competitive edges is foolish imho.

Also this is a lifetime investment for anyone's career. If you examine it from all the angles, pharmacy in this current state is a poor investment in terms of ROI and only getting worse as more and more pharmacy schools popping up like crazy.

As a reminder, there will be ~130 schools at the end of this year and more to come. Have fun competing !! 🙂

 

[oldstock]

do not know if anyone see this thread from 2009. I repost here http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/my-response-from-acpe.627142/

 

[DruggieDoRight]

Sorry to chime in...

I guess it is easier to say when people would not have like 150-200k in undischargeable student loans in other careers. It is good for you that you aim for the best and believe you are going to beat the competition. Remember you are going to be in this career for a long time (i.e. ~20-30 yrs). There are only very few spots at the top. The competition will catch up with you eventually...

Remember that in reality, the roads to employment/finding a job are not straight forward. Your credentials are not the only things to get you a job. Many factors are playing such as connections, favors, and even looks... When there are many people gunning for the same jobs, your livehood (don't forget all that student loans and 6-7% interests) is at the mercy of the employers. Does anyone want to put yourself in that situation ??

Even you got a job, you might have to do more and more with less and less as employers will take advatange of more and more schools pumping out more and more new pharmacists who are very likely even more hungrier than you. If you do not take the jobs now with less pays, somebody else will and employers know that and they might replace you with a little lesser qualified candidates if they have to to save a little money. Employers/businesses would be fools to not take advantage of this situation. That is the economic consequences of more and more schools opening. Ignoring that and believing that situation would not affect you now or later in your lifetime in pharmacy and/or somehow you could always beat the compettion and maintain your competitive edges is foolish imho.

Also this is a lifetime investment for anyone's career. If you examine it from all the angles, pharmacy in this current state is a poor investment in terms of ROI and only getting worse as more and more pharmacy schools popping up like crazy.

As a reminder, there will be ~130 schools at the end of this year and more to come. Have fun competing !! 🙂

Have you scheduled when you'll be taking the MCAT yet?

 

[oldstock]

Have you scheduled when you'll be taking the MCAT yet?

I have only studied for the MCAT for a couple of weeks now. I have not registered for one yet. I am thinking to take the test sometime this Fall. Still trying to decide if I am going to take the new MCAT or the current one.

 

[DruggieDoRight]

I have only studied for the MCAT for a couple of weeks now. I have not registered for one yet. I am thinking to take the test sometime this Fall. Still trying to decide if I am going to take the new MCAT or the current one.

So you're electing to not enter pharmacy school next semester?

 

[oldstock]

So you're electing to not enter pharmacy school next semester?

I have not told the school yet. But I think I will soon.

 

[HobbitJane]

@oldstock I looked at the archives for the school and it seems like the average GPA of students has seen a slight decline (0.05 pts) and I wish the school would stay firm on their requirements. If a person does not have the minimum GPA or a low PCAT score, they need to go back and work on their application; they can always reapply in the next cycle or pursue a different field.

@BMBiology the school limits class sizes to 100 firm and places others on an alternate list. If those accepted decline, then the alternates take their spot. Maybe the changing economic situation has reduced the number of students applying to UA. One quality that I covet in the other health professions is small class size. The CRNA program in my state can only accommodate 28 students.

@Rockinacoustic I just want to make sure every decision I make will move me closer to my dream. I will continue to ask for advice and consider my options.

 

[oldstock]

@oldstock I looked at the archives for the school and it seems like the average GPA of students has seen a slight decline (0.05 pts) and I wish the school would stay firm on their requirements. If a person does not have the minimum GPA or a low PCAT score, they need to go back and work on their application; they can always reapply in the next cycle or pursue a different field.

I agree. 12 percentile is too low. I imagine a monkey would do better than that. Really.

@BMBiology the school limits class sizes to 100 firm and places others on an alternate list. If those accepted decline, then the alternates take their spot. Maybe the changing economic situation has reduced the number of students applying to UA. One quality that I covet in the other health professions is small class size. The CRNA program in my state can only accommodate 28 students.

@Rockinacoustic I just want to make sure every decision I make will move me closer to my dream. I will continue to ask for advice and consider my options.

please continue to share your experience and future plan. Thanks.

 

[HobbitJane]

please continue to share your experience and future plan. Thanks.

Lol, I was just about to ask the same. Good luck with your journey 🙂

 

[oldstock]

Lol, I was just about to ask the same. Good luck with your journey 🙂

yeah I will definitely. My plan is studying for the MCAT and applying next year. If I do not get in, I am ok with what I am doing now. What are you going to do now ??

 

[KidPharmD]

I agree. 12 percentile is too low. I imagine a monkey would do better than that. Really.
please continue to share your experience and future plan. Thanks.

I just want to point out that without more information we do not know several things. First we do not know if the 12% was a single exception or not. It could be that the next student up scored a 50%. We also don't know anything about this student. It could be the student that had the overall 4.0GPA. They could have had the most impressive application ever save the PCAT score. There is a reason that schools don't want a hard minimum on anything.

 

[Mad Jack]

Great thanks!

Did not know ACPE is an advocate of free market system and Capitalism!

It isn't about their being an advocate of the system or not. They have to abide by federal antitrust laws as they pertain to education. These laws require that they create standards for schools to follow, and that ANY school that applies and meets those standards must be allowed to open its doors. Pharmacy oversaturation won't stop until people stop going into the field.

I also don't get why you're specifically focused on only hospital positions in a small geographic radius- you're not entitled to a specific job in a specific area.

 

[Amicable Angora]

yeah I will definitely. My plan is studying for the MCAT and applying next year. If I do not get in, I am ok with what I am doing now. What are you going to do now ??

I was making a multi quote reply, but for some reason my entire text got deleted, so I'll just simplify:

I strongly suggest you stay in pharmacy school until you get at least a formal acceptance letter to a medical school. After all your hard work has paid off in pharmacy, you really do not want to put yourself in a situation where you apply to medical school, end up empty, and then screwed yourself over for pharmacy too.

Lol, I was just about to ask the same. Good luck with your journey 🙂

I had a longer reply written up but it got deleted. Anyway, the gist of it was, don't feel bad about studying hard for your future. Stay of good cheer, contact your older friends and let them know what happened. Try reaching out, you never know.

 

[oldstock]

I just want to point out that without more information we do not know several things. First we do not know if the 12% was a single exception or not. It could be that the next student up scored a 50%. We also don't know anything about this student. It could be the student that had the overall 4.0GPA. They could have had the most impressive application ever save the PCAT score. There is a reason that schools don't want a hard minimum on anything.

regardless, we know there is at least one admitted student with 12 percentile for his/her composite PCAT score at U of Arizona SOP according to the post above.

I agree with you that many schools do not want a hard minimum on anything. But that is not even the majority of schools. Many schools DO have minimum requirements for PCAT and GPA for application consideration.

Imho, no matter how impressive the rest of the student's application with 12 percentile score on his/her PCAT, this 12 percentile is just too low. In fact, this is the big red flag on that student's application. I would question why anyone is even applying to any pharmacy school with that PCAT score. What is the person really thinking ?? Does he/she think any school would accept him/her with a PCAT score that low ?? He/she cannot take it again for a better score given the fact that the PCAT is being offered multiple times annually ??

C'mon... 12 percentile is like you come in and answer only one question right on the PCAT. And we all know that the PCAT is not that hard. This is worse than the people who are randomly picking the answers on the PCAT. In fact I do not know how I would get that score myself even if I tried 🙂

 

[oldstock]

It isn't about their being an advocate of the system or not. They have to abide by federal antitrust laws as they pertain to education. These laws require that they create standards for schools to follow, and that ANY school that applies and meets those standards must be allowed to open its doors. Pharmacy oversaturation won't stop until people stop going into the field.

this madness of school expansion and opening must be stopped somehow. This brings down jobs, pays, quality of admissions/academics, etc. If not ACPE's jobs, whose jobs then ??

I think someone like the Department of Education should take a look at this situation. IMHO this mad school expansion and opening is more about the schools capitalizing on easy student loan money than advancing the profession or benefiting society.

I also don't get why you're specifically focused on only hospital positions in a small geographic radius- you're not entitled to a specific job in a specific area.

I cannot answer for the OP. But we know that the PharmD degree was mandated based on the anticipation/promise of pharmacist's role expansion into clinical pharmacy. Hence it is logical that most PharmD's would like to apply and utilize their knowledge and skills for roles in clinical pharmacy. Hospitals are where the most concentration for clinical pharmacist jobs is. So the OP is probably not an exception and thus would want to work in hospital pharmacy.

Retail pharmacy is doing fine without a PharmD degree for hundred plus years and even now though... Working in retails now and in the future is probably underutilizing (if not wasting) all that knowledge and training of the PharmD degree education.


Check this out,

The Controversy of PharmD Degree
Syed Imran Ahmed, BPharm, MPharm (Clinical Pharmacy) and Mohamed Azmi Ahmad Hassali, BPharm, MPharm, PhD
Am J Pharm Educ. Jun 15, 2008; 72(3): 71.

"In conclusion, our opinion is that the PharmD degree either (1) should be specified for producing clinical pharmacists, and bachelor of pharmacy programs should be continued as basic degree programs; or (2) there must be a similar definition of the PharmD degree all over the world. We think this decision should be made by decision-making authorities/associations who seek out the opinions of experts in the field. We also need to open this topic for discussion so that more ideas can be shared on some basic facts, and not simply criticize and present our own views. We hope that authorities will take this issue in consideration before it starts affecting pharmacists."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2508726/

 

[oldstock]

I was making a multi quote reply, but for some reason my entire text got deleted, so I'll just simplify:

I strongly suggest you stay in pharmacy school until you get at least a formal acceptance letter to a medical school. After all your hard work has paid off in pharmacy, you really do not want to put yourself in a situation where you apply to medical school, end up empty, and then screwed yourself over for pharmacy too.

if I stayed in pharmacy school, it would be likely that I am going to have to finish 4 years of pharmacy school before getting accepted to medical schools. Med schools generally do not like people jumping schools and would probably like them to finish their original school first. If I finished pharmacy school, then I would definitely have to carry on to medical school with all the student loans that I borrowed for pharmacy school. That is something I have been thinking over and over....

While typing all these, I got an acceptance call to another school of pharmacy. Yay !! Cheers !! 🙂

 

[oldstock]

duplicate post. Deleted.

 

[HobbitJane]

I just want to point out that without more information we do not know several things. First we do not know if the 12% was a single exception or not. It could be that the next student up scored a 50%. We also don't know anything about this student. It could be the student that had the overall 4.0GPA. They could have had the most impressive application ever save the PCAT score. There is a reason that schools don't want a hard minimum on anything.

I have to agree with @oldstock, regardless of experience and GPA, this individual should have been denied acceptance. Admissions should be like a job interview. If an applicant is qualified in all areas but fails the drug test, should the employer just overlook this flaw? NO.
Pharmacy schools want to keep their profits high; therefore, candidates who would have been rejected in the past are now given consideration. Only the cream of the crop should be accepted even if it means a smaller class size.

Pharmacy oversaturation won't stop until people stop going into the field.

I also don't get why you're specifically focused on only hospital positions in a small geographic radius- you're not entitled to a specific job in a specific area.

The problem is that students are still encouraged to enter this field despite the oversaturation issue. I do not know if it is ignorance or naïveté, but these days I speak openly about the poor job outlook. I want to work in a clinical environment because that is where my passion lies. In order to have a chance at realizing this dream, I believe that getting a job as an intern would be beneficial. I do not feel entitled to anything, however, I did expect more opportunities to be available. I am not rich enough to afford to drive 2.5 hours every day for a intern job so I am trying to utilize the resources available in the town that I will be moving to. I will be spending approximately $41,000/year on pharmacy school and other costs.

 

[Irelia]

I have to agree with @oldstock, regardless of experience and GPA, this individual should have been denied acceptance. Admissions should be like a job interview. If an applicant is qualified in all areas but fails the drug test, should the employer just overlook this flaw? NO.
Pharmacy schools want to keep their profits high; therefore, candidates who would have been rejected in the past are now given consideration. Only the cream of the crop should be accepted even if it means a smaller class size.



The problem is that students are still encouraged to enter this field despite the oversaturation issue. I do not know if it is ignorance or naïveté, but these days I speak openly about the poor job outlook. I want to work in a clinical environment because that is where my passion lies. In order to have a chance at realizing this dream, I believe that getting a job as an intern would be beneficial. I do not feel entitled to anything, however, I did expect more opportunities to be available. I am not rich enough to afford to drive 2.5 hours every day for a intern job so I am trying to utilize the resources available in the town that I will be moving to. I will be spending approximately $41,000/year on pharmacy school and other costs.

Damn how is going to Arizona cost you $41,000/year? Tuition is around ~$20,000 so you are spending another 20k for everything else?!

Back to your question, most of my friends are class of 2016 or 2015 and they actually had a chance to grade this first year's quizzes and stuff and well they didn't say good things about them lol. Well for now I have decided to pursue pharmacy but who knows what will happen. I do not have a concrete plan but anything can happen for me.

 

[KidPharmD]

I have to agree with @oldstock, regardless of experience and GPA, this individual should have been denied acceptance. Admissions should be like a job interview. If an applicant is qualified in all areas but fails the drug test, should the employer just overlook this flaw? NO.
Pharmacy schools want to keep their profits high; therefore, candidates who would have been rejected in the past are now given consideration. Only the cream of the crop should be accepted even if it means a smaller class size.

Two things: First, as many schools do not require the PCAT for admission, it can be inferred that there will be schools willing to ignore it. Also this would be more analogous to failing an HR personality test, not a drug test.

Two: For as much complaining as is done on this forum, let me state this: Smaller class sizes mean bigger tuitions.

 

[HobbitJane]

Damn how is going to Arizona cost you $41,000/year? Tuition is around ~$20,000 so you are spending another 20k for everything else?!

Back to your question, most of my friends are class of 2016 or 2015 and they actually had a chance to grade this first year's quizzes and stuff and well they didn't say good things about them lol. Well for now I have decided to pursue pharmacy but who knows what will happen. I do not have a concrete plan but anything can happen for me.

Did you read any of the new updates from the AZ Board of Regents?
Tuition alone: $24,000
Fees: unpublished
Housing (12 months): $7,080
Health Insurance: $2,500
Car Insurance: $1,800
Mobile Phone: $600
Gas and Maintenance: $1,120
Food, Water: $1,920
Toiletries: $700
Clothing: $200
Parking permit: $600
Miscellaneous: $480

Total: $41,000
This is a modest estimate of my costs. If you are paying for your education without family assistance, I highly suggest you sit down with a calculator and actually obtain the cost of attendance of your school and the cost of living. Then again, I'm type A, so I tend to plan ahead. Regarding the class of 2017, I know one male student and he is extremely intelligent so not all 100 of them are dull. All I know is I will try my best and strive for excellence. I have plans to have a family someday so I want to obtain my education as quickly as possible, so I must make my final decision by the end of this month.

 

[HobbitJane]

Two things: First, as many schools do not require the PCAT for admission, it can be inferred that there will be schools willing to ignore it. Also this would be more analogous to failing an HR personality test, not a drug test.

Two: For as much complaining as is done on this forum, let me state this: Smaller class sizes mean bigger tuitions.

Again, times have changed. If you want to save the profession you have to devise new ways to either decrease the number of pharmacists or increase the number of available jobs. In the U.S. it is no longer about quality; therefore, less workers are forced to do more work and hence less job positions are available. Instead of crying about it or living in denial, I want to beat out my competition and rise to the top. If tuition is increased, then it will discourage more people because applicants will realize that pharmacy school is not worth the cost. On the other hand, why is the cost of tuition increasing?

Reasonable means to achieve positive change:
1. Demand a reduction in the number of pharmacy schools and class sizes
2. Increase GPA, PCAT, and volunteering standards

 

[Irelia]

I have to agree with @oldstock, regardless of experience and GPA, this individual should have been denied acceptance. Admissions should be like a job interview. If an applicant is qualified in all areas but fails the drug test, should the employer just overlook this flaw? NO.
Pharmacy schools want to keep their profits high; therefore, candidates who would have been rejected in the past are now given consideration. Only the cream of the crop should be accepted even if it means a smaller class size.



The problem is that students are still encouraged to enter this field despite the oversaturation issue. I do not know if it is ignorance or naïveté, but these days I speak openly about the poor job outlook. I want to work in a clinical environment because that is where my passion lies. In order to have a chance at realizing this dream, I believe that getting a job as an intern would be beneficial. I do not feel entitled to anything, however, I did expect more opportunities to be available. I am not rich enough to afford to drive 2.5 hours every day for a intern job so I am trying to utilize the resources available in the town that I will be moving to. I will be spending approximately $41,000/year on pharmacy school and other costs.

Wow I did not know tuition jumped that much even for instate lol. I think that is one of the highest tuition I have seen for instate. Btw, don't you have a family here? or I guess you have to pay car/health insurance by yourself. But trust me, it is not going to cost that much living in Tucson anyways (regarding food/gas/housing). Board of Regents always over-estimate the budget thing that I never take them seriously. (You can easily get a decent place for $400-500/month, groceries are cheaper than Phoenix and gas in Tucson is literally one of the cheapest in the nation) So are going to take out loans?

 

[oldstock]

Two things: First, as many schools do not require the PCAT for admission, it can be inferred that there will be schools willing to ignore it. Also this would be more analogous to failing an HR personality test, not a drug test.

Two: For as much complaining as is done on this forum, let me state this: Smaller class sizes mean bigger tuitions.

What kind of things can one learn about the applicants with such low PCAT score or about the schools which are willing to accept/overlook it (or expanding their class size to "bring down" the tuition) ??

With all due respect, from reading your many responses on SDN, I have to think that you are either working for a school(s) or affiliated with a school(s) 🙂

 

[DruggieDoRight]

What kind of things can one learn about the applicants with such low PCAT score or about the schools which are willing to accept/overlook it (or expanding their class size to "bring down" the tuition) ??

With all due respect, from reading your many responses on SDN, I have to think that you are either working for a school(s) or affiliated with a school(s) 🙂

How could we all have been so blind?!

 

[BMBiology]

Two: For as much complaining as is done on this forum, let me state this: Smaller class sizes mean bigger tuitions.

Where have you been? Tuition has been going up while classes have been expanding. Greed is the driving force here.


Posted using SDN Mobile

 

[SuperXMSat]

I have only studied for the MCAT for a couple of weeks now. I have not registered for one yet. I am thinking to take the test sometime this Fall. Still trying to decide if I am going to take the new MCAT or the current one.

Based on what I've heard about the new MCAT, I would avoid it like the plague. The time it takes to finish the exam should be reason enough. 3hr 20 min vs 6hr 15min????