Recent Response from the ACPE- Leave Pharmacy?

[HobbitJane]

Due to my current feelings of uncertainty regarding pharmacy school, I decided to reach out to the ACPE for assistance. Below you will find the director's response and my original email. I have been calling hospitals in a 75-mile radius surrounding the pharmacy school I will attend in the fall. I have been told that many hospitals are no longer hiring pharmacy interns. At this point, I am wondering if pharmacy students should look into writing their congressmen, the Secretary of Education (Arne Duncan), and maybe a media source (20/20) about the oversaturation issue. Any ideas or comments are welcomed. I figure that without work experience as a pharmacy intern, I will not be able to get a residency and hospital position. If prospects are this dim, I might as well leave because I currently do not know anyone on the inside. I'm tired of walking in a perpetual state of indecisiveness and depression about my future.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear XXXXX(me):

Your email to csinfo was forwarded to me for a response.

You raise some very thought-provoking points in your email. I am sorry you feel so down about the profession as you become a first year student. Truly, you might want to reconsider the profession given your feelings as expressed in your email.

Indeed the number of graduates has grown, as have the number of schools, as have the sizes of the classes. ACPE has no control of any of these things, only that the programs that are offered meet the ACPE accreditation standards that ensure quality pharmacy education. If enrollment grow, then all resources necessary to support those enrollments are expected. It would be a violation of antitrust laws for ACPE to limit any of the things you suggest should be done. Our economy operators on a free market system and such centralized controls are not allowed. It is true that in the past a degree in pharmacy and the licensure that followed to practice pharmacy offered almost any graduate a position; such is not that case and positions will go those most qualified, as defined now by a variety of factors.

Best regards,

Greg B.

J. Gregory Boyer, Ph.D.
Assistant Executive Director &
Director, Professional Degree Program Accreditation
Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education
135 South LaSalle Street, Suite 4100
Chicago, IL 60603-4810
[email protected]
312-664-3575 (office)
312-664-4652 (fax)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XXXX (me)
Sent: XXXXX
To: csinfo
Subject: Petition for change


As an incoming first year pharmacy student, my heart is heavy with grief and regret. Over the last eight years I have sacrificed a lot of the teenage and college experience in pursuit of being admitted into pharmacy school. The one thing that motivated me to work hard towards graduating with a 4.0, forgoing sleep and socialization, was my dream of having a stable job where I could help others.

After taking my entrance exam (PCAT), writing a series of essays for applications and preparing for interviews, I discovered that the field of pharmacy is saturated and slowly dying.

Even with work, pharmacy students have to take out unsubsidized loans of over $160,000 to fund their education. Upon graduating, these students must compete amongst each other and former unemployed students for non-existent jobs. Imagine trying to pay off $160,000 in student loans and interest on a minimum-wage salary after obtaining a doctoral degree. At this point these students become slaves to their loans and enter a state of severe depression.

Educational institutions are opening schools that are not needed and accepting sub-par students into their programs. These greedy pharmacy schools push a false narrative to the public without telling people the truth about the horrible state of pharmacy. In order to save pharmacy I believe strict changes are needed.

The federal government and pharmacy associations should:

1. Prohibit the opening of pharmacy schools for at least 50 years
2. Reduce class sizes by 50% to allow the market to stabilize

Pharmacy schools should require ALL candidates who are applying to have the following:

1. A bachelor’s degree from an accredited American university including all pharmacy prerequisites with a grade of at least a B (3.0)
2. A PCAT composite score of at least 85
3. One year/200 hours of pharmacy experience
4. A history of volunteer work and community service

The strict guidelines will ensure that only the most skilled and dedicated students enter this field, while alleviating issues of saturation. Please make changes to the current system. The United States needs to operate in a sustainable and ethical manner instead of endless cycles of speculation and financial crisis.

Sincerely,

XXXXX (me)

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...rning-out-too-many-grads/stories/201310270094

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[oldstock]

Thank you HobbitJane !!!!

Due to my current feelings of uncertainty regarding pharmacy school, I decided to reach out to the ACPE for assistance. Below you will find the director's response and my original email. I have been calling hospitals in a 75-mile radius surrounding the pharmacy school I will attend in the fall. I have been told that many hospitals are no longer hiring pharmacy interns. At this point, I am wondering if pharmacy students should look into writing their congressmen, the Secretary of Education (Arne Duncan), and maybe a media source (20/20) about the oversaturation issue. Any ideas or comments are welcomed. I figure that without work experience as a pharmacy intern, I will not be able to get a residency and hospital position. If prospects are this dim, I might as well leave because I currently do not know anyone on the inside. I'm tired of walking in a perpetual state of indecisiveness and depression about my future.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear XXXXX(me):

Your email to csinfo was forwarded to me for a response.

You raise some very thought-provoking points in your email. I am sorry you feel so down about the profession as you become a first year student. Truly, you might want to reconsider the profession given your feelings as expressed in your email.

Indeed the number of graduates has grown, as have the number of schools, as have the sizes of the classes. ACPE has no control of any of these things, only that the programs that are offered meet the ACPE accreditation standards that ensure quality pharmacy education. If enrollment grow, then all resources necessary to support those enrollments are expected. It would be a violation of antitrust laws for ACPE to limit any of the things you suggest should be done. Our economy operators on a free market system and such centralized controls are not allowed. It is true that in the past a degree in pharmacy and the licensure that followed to practice pharmacy offered almost any graduate a position; such is not that case and positions will go those most qualified, as defined now by a variety of factors.

Best regards,

Greg B.

J. Gregory Boyer, Ph.D.
Assistant Executive Director &
Director, Professional Degree Program Accreditation
Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education
135 South LaSalle Street, Suite 4100
Chicago, IL 60603-4810
[email protected]
312-664-3575 (office)
312-664-4652 (fax)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XXXX (me)
Sent: XXXXX
To: csinfo
Subject: Petition for change


As an incoming first year pharmacy student, my heart is heavy with grief and regret. Over the last eight years I have sacrificed a lot of the teenage and college experience in pursuit of being admitted into pharmacy school. The one thing that motivated me to work hard towards graduating with a 4.0, forgoing sleep and socialization, was my dream of having a stable job where I could help others.

After taking my entrance exam (PCAT), writing a series of essays for applications and preparing for interviews, I discovered that the field of pharmacy is saturated and slowly dying.

Even with work, pharmacy students have to take out unsubsidized loans of over $160,000 to fund their education. Upon graduating, these students must compete amongst each other and former unemployed students for non-existent jobs. Imagine trying to pay off $160,000 in student loans and interest on a minimum-wage salary after obtaining a doctoral degree. At this point these students become slaves to their loans and enter a state of severe depression.

Educational institutions are opening schools that are not needed and accepting sub-par students into their programs. These greedy pharmacy schools push a false narrative to the public without telling people the truth about the horrible state of pharmacy. In order to save pharmacy I believe strict changes are needed.

The federal government and pharmacy associations should:

1. Prohibit the opening of pharmacy schools for at least 50 years
2. Reduce class sizes by 50% to allow the market to stabilize

Pharmacy schools should require ALL candidates who are applying to have the following:

1. A bachelor’s degree from an accredited American university including all pharmacy prerequisites with a grade of at least a B (3.0)
2. A PCAT composite score of at least 85
3. One year/200 hours of pharmacy experience
4. A history of volunteer work and community service

The strict guidelines will ensure that only the most skilled and dedicated students enter this field, while alleviating issues of saturation. Please make changes to the current system. The United States needs to operate in a sustainable and ethical manner instead of endless cycles of speculation and financial crisis.

Sincerely,

XXXXX (me)

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...rning-out-too-many-grads/stories/201310270094

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3687123/

 

[KidPharmD]

Think I will also respond to this here, since oldstock has already copied this post twice.

The director is correct, limiting the market in this way violates our system.

The current system is not regulated by the federal government or ACPE. It is regulated by the state boards of pharmacy. They decide what is required for licensure, including that a program must be ACPE accredited.

I do find it interesting that you would require an 85% on the PCAT, but only a 3.0 GPA.

 

[owlbright]

Great thanks!

Did not know ACPE is an advocate of free market system and Capitalism!

 

[owlbright]

It's fair to use PCAT as a universal standard. You know how many diploma mills are churning out overwhelmingly 4.0s in each corner of this country. While in my pre-Pharm class, many classmates originally from the border towns were aggressively boasting their GPAs, wait and see how their face turned blue and cried over their first subpar scores of their life.

I do find it interesting that you would require an 85% on the PCAT, but only a 3.0 GPA.

 

[oldstock]

Great thanks!

Did not know ACPE is an advocate of free market system and Capitalism!

(sad)

 

[oldstock]

It's fair to use PCAT as a universal standard. You know how many diploma mills are churning out overwhelmingly 4.0s in each corner of this country. While in my pre-Pharm class, many classmates originally from the border towns were aggressively boasting their GPAs, wait and see how their face turned blue and cried over their first subpar scores of their life.

standardized tests/examination is the way. If you are good, beat me on the same tests !!

 

[KidPharmD]

Great thanks!

Did not know ACPE is an advocate of free market system and Capitalism!

Doesn't really matter if they are an advocate of free market. We live in a capitalistic/free market society with laws and regulation to support its continued function. Attempting to regulate counter to that society would most certainly violate those laws. If you are unhappy with a free market society, you can learn to live with it, work to remove education from that market (through legislation), work to remove the free market entirely, or move somewhere that better aligns with your views.

 

[KidPharmD]

It's fair to use PCAT as a universal standard. You know how many diploma mills are churning out overwhelmingly 4.0s in each corner of this country. While in my pre-Pharm class, many classmates originally from the border towns were aggressively boasting their GPAs, wait and see how their face turned blue and cried over their first subpar scores of their life.

Not disagreeing with emphasizing the PCAT, just thought the choice of numbers was odd. By your logic, I would have guessed a 3.5 GPA and a 70% on the PCAT.

 

[oldstock]

Doesn't really matter if they are an advocate of free market. We live in a capitalistic/free market society with laws and regulation to support its continued function. Attempting to regulate counter to that society would most certainly violate those laws. If you are unhappy with a free market society, you can learn to live with it, work to remove education from that market (through legislation), work to remove the free market entirely, or move somewhere that better aligns with your views.

all that sacarsm and kidding asides, antitrust would have no place in an entirely free market. The anti-trust laws are governmental regulations to ensure and maintain a healthy competition in the market,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law

The point is, we are not a free market by strict definition !!

 

[oldstock]

Not disagreeing with emphasizing the PCAT, just thought the choice of numbers was odd. By your logic, I would have guessed a 3.5 GPA and a 70% on the PCAT.

GPA and 70% or whatever numbers would also have no place in an entirely free market. Those numbers would be defined by supply and demand, i.e. how many applicants out there for the application cycle and how many available schools/seats are there for all those applications.

So to solve this problem of uncontrolled and irresponsible expansion of schools, there must be some sorts of regulations to restrict or reduce the supply side of the equation to ensure and maintain high quality and standards of the pharmacy admission/education and profession as a whole. If not, pharmacy is going the way law and business did.

 

[KidPharmD]

GPA and 70% or whatever numbers would also have no place in an entirely free market. Those numbers would be defined by supply and demand, i.e. how many applicants out there for the application cycle and how many available schools/seats are there for all those applications.

So to solve this problem of uncontrolled and irresponsible expansion of schools, there must be some sorts of regulations to restrict or reduce the supply side of the equation to ensure and maintain high quality and standards of the pharmacy admission/education and profession as a whole. If not, pharmacy is going the way law and business did.

What regulations would you suggest that would not violate current economic law?

 

[oldstock]

What regulations would you suggest that would not violate current economic law?

I have been thinking about a solution for this problem (though I am just a lowly student who is in no position of power to make any change for now).

IMHO the real reason that new pharmacy schools are opening left and right is because pharmacy schools have become a lucrative business. People know about the high pay and job security in pharmacy thus are willing to pay expensive tuition to go to pharmacy schools. Colleges and universities see this and come in to capitalize on easy student loans. People are afford to pay for pharmacy school because everyone is qualified for federal student loans for schools. Schools are trying to charge to the max that a typical pharmacy student can be qualified for fed student loans. The easy money is the real engine to drive this crazy expansion of schools.

Take away this easy money away, the problem of crazy school expansion would be solved. And how would we do that ??

I have not done my research here yet but it looks like every school and every school would be qualified for federal student loans. I would imagine that if we raise the bar for schools to qualify for fed student loans, this would achieve the goal of controlling school expansion because weak (most would be for-profit schools would got weed out). But to raise the bar for fed student loan qualifications, this is probably something really bigger than ACPE or AACP that would involved the federal government and Congress. This would be a long process and a big fight given big stakes that everyone has...

I can't think of an immediate solution for this problem yet unfortunately...... Unless ACPE and AACP would really go at this matter and lobby federal government and Congress aggressively. It would be hard, I would imagine, as there are many different interests present within ACPE and AACP.....

 

[radio frequency]

IMHO the real reason that new pharmacy schools are opening left and right is because pharmacy schools have become a lucrative business. People know about the high pay and job security in pharmacy thus are willing to pay expensive tuition to go to pharmacy schools. Colleges and universities see this and come in to capitalize on easy student loans. People are afford to pay for pharmacy school because everyone is qualified for federal student loans for schools. Schools are trying to charge to the max that a typical pharmacy student can be qualified for fed student loans. The easy money is the real engine to drive this crazy expansion of schools.

Take away this easy money away, the problem of crazy school expansion would be solved. And how would we do that ??

These few sentences are the first time I've wholeheartedly agreed with your reasoning. Just thought it was interesting as I've spent much time considering this (many years).

 

[oldstock]

These few sentences are the first time I've wholeheartedly agreed with your reasoning. Just thought it was interesting as I've spent much time considering this (many years).

there is always the 1st time lol jk

 

[HobbitJane]

I wrote this post because I am tired of the pessimism and victim mentality that has taken over this forum. I am trying to be proactive but realistic about my strengths and the greed that has overcome this nation. I did not know who to contact, so I started with the ACPE. Next I will contact my state board and other high-ranking individuals.
@KidPharmD I picked those numbers arbitrarily, but I figure that some universities have a more rigorous curriculum than others; therefore, a grade of a B would be sufficient in a few(1-4) classes. At this point, I think it is time for pharmacy school admissions to be more exclusive and competitive; the higher the standards the better. Could we petition the federal government to deny student aid to programs that produce unemployed graduates?
Although capitalism is nice, regulation is needed because some business and industry leaders operate without a moral compass for the sake of higher profit.

I encourage all pre-pharmacy and pharmacy students to write to those in power to see if we can turn the tide. I want to at least make a true concerted effort to save this field before walking away. If you write to your state board or other policymaker, please share.

 

[pharmerjohn]

I wrote this post because I am tired of the pessimism and victim mentality that has taken over this forum. I am trying to be proactive but realistic about my strengths and the greed that has overcome this nation. I did not know who to contact, so I started with the ACPE. Next I will contact my state board and other high-ranking individuals.
@KidPharmD I picked those numbers arbitrarily, but I figure that some universities have a more rigorous curriculum than others; therefore, a grade of a B would be sufficient in a few(1-4) classes. At this point, I think it is time for pharmacy school admissions to be more exclusive and competitive; the higher the standards the better. Could we petition the federal government to deny student aid to programs that produce unemployed graduates?
Although capitalism is nice, regulation is needed because some business and industry leaders operate without a moral compass for the sake of higher profit.

I encourage all pre-pharmacy and pharmacy students to write to those in power to see if we can turn the tide. I want to at least make a true concerted effort to save this field before walking away. If you write to your state board or other policymaker, please share.

To start off, let's compile a list of people to write to so we can collectively inundate their mailboxes with our petitions. I will join the effort in an attempt to make a difference. If everyone who goes on this board makes a contribution, we will surely make an impact through strength in numbers.

 

[oldstock]

I wrote this post because I am tired of the pessimism and victim mentality that has taken over this forum. I am trying to be proactive but realistic about my strengths and the greed that has overcome this nation. I did not know who to contact, so I started with the ACPE. Next I will contact my state board and other high-ranking individuals.
@KidPharmD I picked those numbers arbitrarily, but I figure that some universities have a more rigorous curriculum than others; therefore, a grade of a B would be sufficient in a few(1-4) classes. At this point, I think it is time for pharmacy school admissions to be more exclusive and competitive; the higher the standards the better. Could we petition the federal government to deny student aid to programs that produce unemployed graduates?
Although capitalism is nice, regulation is needed because some business and industry leaders operate without a moral compass for the sake of higher profit.

I encourage all pre-pharmacy and pharmacy students to write to those in power to see if we can turn the tide. I want to at least make a true concerted effort to save this field before walking away. If you write to your state board or other policymaker, please share.

I am thinking of walking away too. I am sickened to see all those things are happening now knowing that I can't do much to help. Yet I agree with you guys that we are only a power if we can get together in great numbers. Knowing now that ACPE and AACP could not do much to protect the profession or the interest of the majority of pharmacists and pharmacy student, the responsibility is on us to do something (duh lol )

Thank you very much again for your action !! I salute you !!

 

[HobbitJane]

I hope I am not violating any rules but I think we should all start by emailing or writing letters to the NABP and each state board of pharmacy.

National Association of Boards of Pharmacy
Executive Director/Secretary
e-mail: [email protected]
Mailing Address
NABP
1600 Feehanville Dr
Mount Prospect, IL 60056

Alabama State Board of Pharmacy
Susan Alverson
Secretary
PO Box 381988
Birmingham, AL, 35238
Office: 205/981-2280
Fax: 205/981-2330
Website:http://www.albop.com

Alaska Board of Pharmacy
Donna M. Bellino
Occupational Licensing Examiner
PO Box 110806
Juneau, AK, 99811-0806
Office: 907/465-2550
Fax: 907/465-2974
Website:http://commerce.alaska.gov/dnn/cbpl/ProfessionalLicensing/BoardofPharmacy.aspx
Office E-mail:[email protected]

Arizona State Board of Pharmacy
Hal Wand
Executive Director
PO Box 18520
Phoenix, AZ, 85005-8520
Office: 602/771-2727
Fax: 602/771-2749
Website:https://pharmacy.az.gov/
Contact:[email protected]

Arkansas State Board of Pharmacy
John Clay Kirtley
Executive Director
322 S Main St
Little Rock, AR, 72201
Office: 501/682-0190
Fax: 501/682-0195
Website:http://pharmacyboard.arkansas.gov/Pages/default.aspx
Contact:[email protected]

California State Board of Pharmacy
Virginia Herold
Executive Officer
1625 N Market Blvd N219
Sacramento, CA, 95834
Office: 916/574-7900
Fax: 916/574-8618
Website:http://www.pharmacy.ca.gov
Contact:[email protected]

Colorado State Board of Pharmacy
Chris Gassen
Program Director
1560 Broadway, Suite 1350
Denver, CO, 80202-5143
Office: 303-894-7800
Fax: 303-894-7692
Website:http://www.dora.state.co.us/pharmacy
Office Email:[email protected]

Connecticut Commission of Pharmacy
Heather Hoynes
Board Administrator
State Office Building, 165 Capitol Ave., Room 147
Hartford, CT, 06106
Office: 860-713-6070
Fax: 860/706-1242
Website:http://www.ct.gov/dcp/cwp/view.asp?a=1620&Q=273844&PM=1

Delaware State Board of Pharmacy
David W. Dryden
Executive Secretary, Division of Professional Regulation
Cannon Building, 861 Silver Lake Blvd, Suite 203
Dover, DE, 19904
Office: 302-744-4500
Fax: 302-739-2711
Website:http://www.dpr.delaware.gov/boards/pharmacy/index.shtml
Office Email:[email protected]

District of Columbia Board of Pharmacy
Patricia D'Antonio
Executive Director
899 N Capitol St, NE, 2nd Floor
Washington, DC, 20002
Office: 202/727-9856
Fax: 202/727-8471
Website:http://doh.dc.gov/node/185772
Contact:[email protected]

Florida Board of Pharmacy
Patrick Kennedy
Executive Director
4052 Bald Cypress Way, Bin #C04
Tallahassee, FL, 32399-3254
Office: 850-245-4292
Fax: 850-413-6982
Website:http://www.floridaspharmacy.gov/
Office Email:[email protected]

Georgia State Board of Pharmacy
Tanja Battle
Executive Director
Georgia Department of Community Health, 2 Peachtree St NW, 36th Fl
Atlanta, GA, 30303
Office: 404/651-8000
Fax: 678/717-6694
Website:http://gbp.georgia.gov
Contact:[email protected]

Hawaii State Board of Pharmacy
Lee Ann Teshima
Executive Officer
PO Box 3469
Honolulu, HI, 96801
Office: 808-586-2695
Fax: 808-586-2689
Website:http://www.hawaii.gov/dcca/areas/pvl/boards/pharmacy
Office Email:[email protected]

Idaho State Board of Pharmacy
Mark D. Johnston
Executive Director
1199 Shoreline Ln, Suite 303
Boise, ID, 83702
Office: 208-334-2356
Fax: 208-334-3536
Website:http://bop.idaho.gov/
Licensing/Registration Information:[email protected]
Legal Information/Questions:[email protected]

Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation Division of Professional Regulation - State Board of Pharmacy
Robert Gerton
Pharmacy Board Liaison
320 W Washington, 3rd Floor
Springfield, IL, 62786
Office: 800/560-6420
Fax: 217/782-7645
Website:http://www.idfpr.com/PROFS/Info/pharm.asp
Office Email:[email protected]

Indiana Board of Pharmacy
Gregory Pachmayr
Director
402 W Washington St, Room W072
Indianapolis, IN, 46204-2739
Office: 317-234-2067
Fax: 317-233-4236
Website:http://www.in.gov/pla/pharmacy.htm
Office Email:[email protected]

Iowa Board of Pharmacy
Lloyd K. Jessen
Executive Director
400 SW 8th St, Suite E
Des Moines, IA, 50309-4688
Office: 515-281-5944
Fax: 515-281-4609
Website:http://www.state.ia.us/ibpe
Contact:[email protected]

Kansas State Board of Pharmacy
Debra L. Billingsley
Executive Secretary
800 SW Jackson, Ste 1414
Topeka, KS, 66612
Office: 785-296-4056
Fax: 785-296-8420
Website:http://www.pharmacy.ks.gov/
Office Email:[email protected]

Kentucky Board of Pharmacy
Michael A. Burleson
Executive Director
State Office Building Annex, Ste 300, 125 Holmes St.
Frankfort, KY, 40601
Office: 502-564-7910
Fax: 502-696-3806
Website:http://pharmacy.ky.gov/
Office Email:[email protected]

Louisiana Board of Pharmacy
Malcolm J. Broussard
Executive Director
3388 Brentwood Drive
Baton Rouge, LA, 70809-1700
Office: 225-925-6496
Fax: 225-925-6499
Website:http://www.pharmacy.la.gov
Office Email:[email protected]

Maine Department of Professional and Financial Regulation, Office of Professional and Occupational Regulation – Board of Pharmacy
Geraldine L. "Jeri"Betts
Board Administrator
35 State House Station
Augusta, ME, 04333
Office: 207/624-8620
Fax: 207/624-8666
Website:http://www.maine.gov/pfr/professionallicensing/professions/pharmacy/
Contact:[email protected]

Maryland Board of Pharmacy
La Verne George Naesea
Executive Director
4201 Patterson Ave.
Baltimore, MD, 21215-2299
Office: 410-764-4755
Fax: 410-358-9512
Website:http://dhmh.maryland.gov/pharmacy/SitePages/Home.aspx
Office Email:[email protected]

Massachusetts Board of Registration in Pharmacy
David Sencabaugh
Executive Director
239 Causeway St. 5th Floor, Suite 500
Boston, MA, 02114
Office: 617-973-0800
Fax: 617-973-0983
Website:http://www.mass.gov/dph/boards/pharmacy
E-mail:[email protected]

Michigan Board of Pharmacy
Bureau of Health Care Services/Health Professions Division
611 W Ottawa, 1st Floor, PO Box 30670
Lansing, MI, 48909-8170
Office: 517/335-0918
Fax: 517/373-2179
Website:http://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-35299_28150_27529_27548---,00.html
Office Email:[email protected]

Minnesota Board of Pharmacy
Cody C. Wiberg
Executive Director
2829 University Ave SE, Suite 530
Minneapolis, MN, 55414-3251
Office: 651-201-2825
Fax: 651-201-2837
Website:http://www.pharmacy.state.mn.us/
Office Email:[email protected]

Mississippi Board of Pharmacy
Frank Gammill
Executive Director
6360 I-55 North, Suite 400
Jackson, MS, 39211
Office: 601-899-8880
Fax: 601-899-8851
Website:http://www.mbp.state.ms.us
Contact:[email protected]

Missouri Board of Pharmacy
Kimberly Grinston
Executive Director
PO Box 625
Jefferson City, MO, 65102
Office: 573-751-0091
Fax: 573-526-3464
Website:http://www.pr.mo.gov/pharmacists
Office Email:[email protected]

Montana Board of Pharmacy
Marcie Bough
Executive Director
PO Box 200513
Helena, MT, 59620-0513
Office: 406/841-2300
Fax: 406/841-2355
Website:http://bsd.dli.mt.gov/license/bsd_boards/pha_board/board_page.asp
Office Email:[email protected]

Nebraska Department of Health and Human Services, Division of Public Health, Licensure Unit
Becky Wisell
Office Administrator
PO Box 94986
Lincoln, NE, 68509-4986
Office: 402-471-2118
Fax: 402-471-3577
Website:http://dhhs.ne.gov/publichealth/Pages/crl_medical_pharm_pharmlic_pharmindex.aspx
Contact:[email protected]

Nevada State Board of Pharmacy
Larry L. Pinson
Executive Secretary
431 W. Plumb Ln.
Reno, NV, 89509
Office: 775-850-1440
Fax: 775-850-1444
Website:http://bop.nv.gov
Office Email:[email protected]

New Hampshire Board of Pharmacy
Jason R. Richard
Interim Executive Secretary/Business Administrator
121 S Fruit St
Concord, NH, 03301-2412
Office: 603-271-2350
Fax: 603-271-2856
Website:http://www.nh.gov/pharmacy
Office Email:[email protected]

New Jersey State Board of Pharmacy
Anthony Rubinaccio
Executive Director
PO Box 45013
Newark, NJ, 07101
Office: 973/504-6450
Fax: 973/648-3355
Website:http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/pharm/
Contact:[email protected]

New Mexico Board of Pharmacy
Larry Loring
Executive Director/Chief Drug Inspector
5200 Oakland NE, Ste A
Albuquerque, NM, 87113
Office: 505/222-9830
Fax: 505/222-9845
Website:http://www.rld.state.nm.us/boards/Pharmacy.aspx
Contact:[email protected]

New York State Board of Pharmacy
Lawrence "Larry" H. Mokhiber
Executive Secretary
89 Washington Ave, 2nd Floor W
Albany, NY, 12234-1000
Office: 518/474-3817 ext. 130
Fax: 518/473-6995
Website:http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/pharm/
Office Email:[email protected]

North Carolina Board of Pharmacy
Jack W. "Jay" Campbell IV
Executive Director
6015 Farrington Rd Suite 201
Chapel Hill, NC, 27517
Office: 919-246-1050
Fax: 919-246-1056
Website:http://www.ncbop.org
Executive Director:[email protected]
Consumer complaints, investigations, legal issues:[email protected]
Consumer complaints, investigations, legal issues:[email protected]

North Dakota State Board of Pharmacy
Mark Hardy
Executive Director
1906 E Broadway Ave
Bismarck, ND, 58501-1354
Office: 701/328-9535
Fax: 701/328-9536
Website:http://www.nodakpharmacy.com
Office Email:[email protected]

Ohio State Board of Pharmacy
Kyle W. Parker
Executive Director
77 S High St., Room 1702
Columbus, OH, 43215-6126
Office: 614-466-4143
Fax: 614-752-4836
Website:http://www.pharmacy.ohio.gov
Office Email:[email protected]

Oklahoma State Board of Pharmacy
John A. Foust
Executive Director
2920 N Lincoln Blvd
Oklahoma City, OK, 73105-3488
Office: 405-521-3815
Fax: 405-521-3758
Website:http://www.pharmacy.ok.gov
Office Email:[email protected]

Oregon State Board of Pharmacy
Marcus "Marc" Watt
Executive Director
800 NE Oregon St., Suite 150
Portland, OR, 97232
Office: 971-673-0001
Fax: 971-673-0002
Website:http://www.pharmacy.state.or.us
Office Email:[email protected]

Pennsylvania State Board of Pharmacy
Melanie Zimmerman
Executive Secretary
PO Box 2649
Harrisburg, PA, 17105-2649
Office: 717-783-7156
Fax: 717-787-7769
Website:http://www.dos.state.pa.us/pharm
Office Email:[email protected]

Rhode Island Board of Pharmacy
Peter Ragosta
Executive Director
3 Capitol Hill, Room 205
Providence, RI, 02908-5097
Office: 401-222-2837
Fax: 401-222-2158
Website:http://www.health.ri.gov/hsr/professions/pharmacy.php
Contact:[email protected]

South Carolina Department of Labor Licensing and Regulation –€” Board of Pharmacy
Lee Ann F. Bundrick
Administrator
Kingstree Bldg, 110 Centerview Dr.
Columbia, SC, 29210
Office: 803-896-4707
Fax: 803-896-4596
Website:http://www.llr.state.sc.us/pol/pharmacy
Contact:[email protected]

South Dakota State Board of Pharmacy
Randy Jones
Executive Director
3701 West 49th St, Suite 204
Sioux Falls, SD, 57106
Office: 605-362-2737
Fax: 605-362-2738
Website:http://www.pharmacy.sd.gov
Contact:[email protected]

Tennessee Board of Pharmacy
Reginald "Reggie" Dilliard
Executive Director
665 Mainstream Dr
Nashville, TN, 37243
Office: 615-741-2718
Fax: 615-741-2722
Website:http://health.state.tn.us/Boards/Pharmacy/index.shtml

Texas State Board of Pharmacy
Gay Dodson
Executive Director/Secretary
333 Guadalupe, Ste 3-600
Austin, TX, 78701
Office: 512-305-8000
Fax: 512-305-8082
Website:http://www.tsbp.state.tx.us
Contact:[email protected]

Utah Board of Pharmacy
Rich Oborn
Bureau Manager, Division of Occupational and Professional Licensing
PO Box 146741
Salt Lake City, UT, 84114-6741
Office: 801/530-6628
Fax: 801/530-6511
Website:http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/pharmacy.html

Vermont Board of Pharmacy
Ronald J. Klein
Executive Officer
89 Main St, Third Floor
Montpelier, VT, 05620-3402
Office: 802/828-2733
Fax: 802/828-2465
Website:https://www.sec.state.vt.us/professional-regulation/professions/pharmacy.aspx
Contact:[email protected]

Virginia Board of Pharmacy
Caroline Juran
Executive Director
Perimeter Center, 9960 Mayland Drive, Suite 300
Henrico, VA, 23233-1463
Office: 804-367-4456
Fax: 804-527-4472
Website:http://www.dhp.virginia.gov/pharmacy
Office Email:[email protected]

Washington State Pharmacy Quality Assurance Commission
Chris Humberson
Executive Director
PO Box 47852
Olympia, WA, 98504-7852
Office: 360/236-4946
Fax: 360/236-4825
Website:http://www.doh.wa.gov/LicensesPermi...fessionsNewReneworUpdate/BoardofPharmacy.aspx
Office Email:[email protected]

West Virginia Board of Pharmacy
David E. Potters
Executive Director and General Counsel
2310 Kanawha Blvd E
Charleston, WV, 25311
Office: 304-558-0558
Fax: 304-558-0572
Website:http://www.wvbop.com/
Office Email:[email protected]

Wisconsin Pharmacy Examining Board
Dan Williams
Bureau Director
PO Box 8935
Madison, WI, 53708-8935
Office: 608/266-2112
Fax: 608/267-0644
Website:http://dsps.wi.gov/Default.aspx?Page=50667d91-727c-4c8c-9236-a643a06a5bb0
Office Email:[email protected]

Wyoming State Board of Pharmacy
Mary K. Walker
Executive Director
1712 Carey Ave., Suite 200
Cheyenne, WY, 82002
Office: 307-634-9636
Fax: 307-634-6335
Website:http://pharmacyboard.state.wy.us/
Office Email:[email protected]

 

[oldstock]

thanks again for the list and your leadership !!

I hope I am not violating any rules but I think we should all start by emailing or writing letters to the NABP and each state board of pharmacy.

National Association of Boards of Pharmacy
Executive Director/Secretary
e-mail: [email protected]
Mailing Address
NABP
1600 Feehanville Dr
Mount Prospect, IL 60056
Alabama State Board of Pharmacy
Susan Alverson
Secretary
PO Box 381988
Birmingham, AL, 35238
Office: 205/981-2280
Fax: 205/981-2330
Website:http://www.albop.com

Alaska Board of Pharmacy
Donna M. Bellino
Occupational Licensing Examiner
PO Box 110806
Juneau, AK, 99811-0806
Office: 907/465-2550
Fax: 907/465-2974
Website:http://commerce.alaska.gov/dnn/cbpl/ProfessionalLicensing/BoardofPharmacy.aspx
Office E-mail:[email protected]

Arizona State Board of Pharmacy
Hal Wand
Executive Director
PO Box 18520
Phoenix, AZ, 85005-8520
Office: 602/771-2727
Fax: 602/771-2749
Website:https://pharmacy.az.gov/
Contact:[email protected]

Arkansas State Board of Pharmacy
John Clay Kirtley
Executive Director
322 S Main St
Little Rock, AR, 72201
Office: 501/682-0190
Fax: 501/682-0195
Website:http://pharmacyboard.arkansas.gov/Pages/default.aspx
Contact:[email protected]

California State Board of Pharmacy
Virginia Herold
Executive Officer
1625 N Market Blvd N219
Sacramento, CA, 95834
Office: 916/574-7900
Fax: 916/574-8618
Website:http://www.pharmacy.ca.gov
Contact:[email protected]

Colorado State Board of Pharmacy
Chris Gassen
Program Director
1560 Broadway, Suite 1350
Denver, CO, 80202-5143
Office: 303-894-7800
Fax: 303-894-7692
Website:http://www.dora.state.co.us/pharmacy
Office Email:[email protected]

Connecticut Commission of Pharmacy
Heather Hoynes
Board Administrator
State Office Building, 165 Capitol Ave., Room 147
Hartford, CT, 06106
Office: 860-713-6070
Fax: 860/706-1242
Website:http://www.ct.gov/dcp/cwp/view.asp?a=1620&Q=273844&PM=1

Delaware State Board of Pharmacy
David W. Dryden
Executive Secretary, Division of Professional Regulation
Cannon Building, 861 Silver Lake Blvd, Suite 203
Dover, DE, 19904
Office: 302-744-4500
Fax: 302-739-2711
Website:http://www.dpr.delaware.gov/boards/pharmacy/index.shtml
Office Email:[email protected]

District of Columbia Board of Pharmacy
Patricia D'Antonio
Executive Director
899 N Capitol St, NE, 2nd Floor
Washington, DC, 20002
Office: 202/727-9856
Fax: 202/727-8471
Website:http://doh.dc.gov/node/185772
Contact:[email protected]

Florida Board of Pharmacy
Patrick Kennedy
Executive Director
4052 Bald Cypress Way, Bin #C04
Tallahassee, FL, 32399-3254
Office: 850-245-4292
Fax: 850-413-6982
Website:http://www.floridaspharmacy.gov/
Office Email:[email protected]

Georgia State Board of Pharmacy
Tanja Battle
Executive Director
Georgia Department of Community Health, 2 Peachtree St NW, 36th Fl
Atlanta, GA, 30303
Office: 404/651-8000
Fax: 678/717-6694
Website:http://gbp.georgia.gov
Contact:[email protected]

Hawaii State Board of Pharmacy
Lee Ann Teshima
Executive Officer
PO Box 3469
Honolulu, HI, 96801
Office: 808-586-2695
Fax: 808-586-2689
Website:http://www.hawaii.gov/dcca/areas/pvl/boards/pharmacy
Office Email:[email protected]

Idaho State Board of Pharmacy
Mark D. Johnston
Executive Director
1199 Shoreline Ln, Suite 303
Boise, ID, 83702
Office: 208-334-2356
Fax: 208-334-3536
Website:http://bop.idaho.gov/
Licensing/Registration Information:[email protected]
Legal Information/Questions:[email protected]

Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation Division of Professional Regulation - State Board of Pharmacy
Robert Gerton
Pharmacy Board Liaison
320 W Washington, 3rd Floor
Springfield, IL, 62786
Office: 800/560-6420
Fax: 217/782-7645
Website:http://www.idfpr.com/PROFS/Info/pharm.asp
Office Email:[email protected]

Indiana Board of Pharmacy
Gregory Pachmayr
Director
402 W Washington St, Room W072
Indianapolis, IN, 46204-2739
Office: 317-234-2067
Fax: 317-233-4236
Website:http://www.in.gov/pla/pharmacy.htm
Office Email:[email protected]

Iowa Board of Pharmacy
Lloyd K. Jessen
Executive Director
400 SW 8th St, Suite E
Des Moines, IA, 50309-4688
Office: 515-281-5944
Fax: 515-281-4609
Website:http://www.state.ia.us/ibpe
Contact:[email protected]

Kansas State Board of Pharmacy
Debra L. Billingsley
Executive Secretary
800 SW Jackson, Ste 1414
Topeka, KS, 66612
Office: 785-296-4056
Fax: 785-296-8420
Website:http://www.pharmacy.ks.gov/
Office Email:[email protected]

Kentucky Board of Pharmacy
Michael A. Burleson
Executive Director
State Office Building Annex, Ste 300, 125 Holmes St.
Frankfort, KY, 40601
Office: 502-564-7910
Fax: 502-696-3806
Website:http://pharmacy.ky.gov/
Office Email:[email protected]

Louisiana Board of Pharmacy
Malcolm J. Broussard
Executive Director
3388 Brentwood Drive
Baton Rouge, LA, 70809-1700
Office: 225-925-6496
Fax: 225-925-6499
Website:http://www.pharmacy.la.gov
Office Email:[email protected]

Maine Department of Professional and Financial Regulation, Office of Professional and Occupational Regulation – Board of Pharmacy
Geraldine L. "Jeri"Betts
Board Administrator
35 State House Station
Augusta, ME, 04333
Office: 207/624-8620
Fax: 207/624-8666
Website:http://www.maine.gov/pfr/professionallicensing/professions/pharmacy/
Contact:[email protected]

Maryland Board of Pharmacy
La Verne George Naesea
Executive Director
4201 Patterson Ave.
Baltimore, MD, 21215-2299
Office: 410-764-4755
Fax: 410-358-9512
Website:http://dhmh.maryland.gov/pharmacy/SitePages/Home.aspx
Office Email:[email protected]

Massachusetts Board of Registration in Pharmacy
David Sencabaugh
Executive Director
239 Causeway St. 5th Floor, Suite 500
Boston, MA, 02114
Office: 617-973-0800
Fax: 617-973-0983
Website:http://www.mass.gov/dph/boards/pharmacy
E-mail:[email protected]

Michigan Board of Pharmacy
Bureau of Health Care Services/Health Professions Division
611 W Ottawa, 1st Floor, PO Box 30670
Lansing, MI, 48909-8170
Office: 517/335-0918
Fax: 517/373-2179
Website:http://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-35299_28150_27529_27548---,00.html
Office Email:[email protected]

Minnesota Board of Pharmacy
Cody C. Wiberg
Executive Director
2829 University Ave SE, Suite 530
Minneapolis, MN, 55414-3251
Office: 651-201-2825
Fax: 651-201-2837
Website:http://www.pharmacy.state.mn.us/
Office Email:[email protected]

Mississippi Board of Pharmacy
Frank Gammill
Executive Director
6360 I-55 North, Suite 400
Jackson, MS, 39211
Office: 601-899-8880
Fax: 601-899-8851
Website:http://www.mbp.state.ms.us
Contact:[email protected]

Missouri Board of Pharmacy
Kimberly Grinston
Executive Director
PO Box 625
Jefferson City, MO, 65102
Office: 573-751-0091
Fax: 573-526-3464
Website:http://www.pr.mo.gov/pharmacists
Office Email:[email protected]

Montana Board of Pharmacy
Marcie Bough
Executive Director
PO Box 200513
Helena, MT, 59620-0513
Office: 406/841-2300
Fax: 406/841-2355
Website:http://bsd.dli.mt.gov/license/bsd_boards/pha_board/board_page.asp
Office Email:[email protected]

Nebraska Department of Health and Human Services, Division of Public Health, Licensure Unit
Becky Wisell
Office Administrator
PO Box 94986
Lincoln, NE, 68509-4986
Office: 402-471-2118
Fax: 402-471-3577
Website:http://dhhs.ne.gov/publichealth/Pages/crl_medical_pharm_pharmlic_pharmindex.aspx
Contact:[email protected]

Nevada State Board of Pharmacy
Larry L. Pinson
Executive Secretary
431 W. Plumb Ln.
Reno, NV, 89509
Office: 775-850-1440
Fax: 775-850-1444
Website:http://bop.nv.gov
Office Email:[email protected]

New Hampshire Board of Pharmacy
Jason R. Richard
Interim Executive Secretary/Business Administrator
121 S Fruit St
Concord, NH, 03301-2412
Office: 603-271-2350
Fax: 603-271-2856
Website:http://www.nh.gov/pharmacy
Office Email:[email protected]

New Jersey State Board of Pharmacy
Anthony Rubinaccio
Executive Director
PO Box 45013
Newark, NJ, 07101
Office: 973/504-6450
Fax: 973/648-3355
Website:http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/pharm/
Contact:[email protected]

New Mexico Board of Pharmacy
Larry Loring
Executive Director/Chief Drug Inspector
5200 Oakland NE, Ste A
Albuquerque, NM, 87113
Office: 505/222-9830
Fax: 505/222-9845
Website:http://www.rld.state.nm.us/boards/Pharmacy.aspx
Contact:[email protected]

New York State Board of Pharmacy
Lawrence "Larry" H. Mokhiber
Executive Secretary
89 Washington Ave, 2nd Floor W
Albany, NY, 12234-1000
Office: 518/474-3817 ext. 130
Fax: 518/473-6995
Website:http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/pharm/
Office Email:[email protected]

North Carolina Board of Pharmacy
Jack W. "Jay" Campbell IV
Executive Director
6015 Farrington Rd Suite 201
Chapel Hill, NC, 27517
Office: 919-246-1050
Fax: 919-246-1056
Website:http://www.ncbop.org
Executive Director:[email protected]
Consumer complaints, investigations, legal issues:[email protected]
Consumer complaints, investigations, legal issues:[email protected]

North Dakota State Board of Pharmacy
Mark Hardy
Executive Director
1906 E Broadway Ave
Bismarck, ND, 58501-1354
Office: 701/328-9535
Fax: 701/328-9536
Website:http://www.nodakpharmacy.com
Office Email:[email protected]

Ohio State Board of Pharmacy
Kyle W. Parker
Executive Director
77 S High St., Room 1702
Columbus, OH, 43215-6126
Office: 614-466-4143
Fax: 614-752-4836
Website:http://www.pharmacy.ohio.gov
Office Email:[email protected]

Oklahoma State Board of Pharmacy
John A. Foust
Executive Director
2920 N Lincoln Blvd
Oklahoma City, OK, 73105-3488
Office: 405-521-3815
Fax: 405-521-3758
Website:http://www.pharmacy.ok.gov
Office Email:[email protected]

Oregon State Board of Pharmacy
Marcus "Marc" Watt
Executive Director
800 NE Oregon St., Suite 150
Portland, OR, 97232
Office: 971-673-0001
Fax: 971-673-0002
Website:http://www.pharmacy.state.or.us
Office Email:[email protected]

Pennsylvania State Board of Pharmacy
Melanie Zimmerman
Executive Secretary
PO Box 2649
Harrisburg, PA, 17105-2649
Office: 717-783-7156
Fax: 717-787-7769
Website:http://www.dos.state.pa.us/pharm
Office Email:[email protected]

Rhode Island Board of Pharmacy
Peter Ragosta
Executive Director
3 Capitol Hill, Room 205
Providence, RI, 02908-5097
Office: 401-222-2837
Fax: 401-222-2158
Website:http://www.health.ri.gov/hsr/professions/pharmacy.php
Contact:[email protected]

South Carolina Department of Labor Licensing and Regulation –€” Board of Pharmacy
Lee Ann F. Bundrick
Administrator
Kingstree Bldg, 110 Centerview Dr.
Columbia, SC, 29210
Office: 803-896-4707
Fax: 803-896-4596
Website:http://www.llr.state.sc.us/pol/pharmacy
Contact:[email protected]

South Dakota State Board of Pharmacy
Randy Jones
Executive Director
3701 West 49th St, Suite 204
Sioux Falls, SD, 57106
Office: 605-362-2737
Fax: 605-362-2738
Website:http://www.pharmacy.sd.gov
Contact:[email protected]

Tennessee Board of Pharmacy
Reginald "Reggie" Dilliard
Executive Director
665 Mainstream Dr
Nashville, TN, 37243
Office: 615-741-2718
Fax: 615-741-2722
Website:http://health.state.tn.us/Boards/Pharmacy/index.shtml

Texas State Board of Pharmacy
Gay Dodson
Executive Director/Secretary
333 Guadalupe, Ste 3-600
Austin, TX, 78701
Office: 512-305-8000
Fax: 512-305-8082
Website:http://www.tsbp.state.tx.us
Contact:[email protected]

Utah Board of Pharmacy
Rich Oborn
Bureau Manager, Division of Occupational and Professional Licensing
PO Box 146741
Salt Lake City, UT, 84114-6741
Office: 801/530-6628
Fax: 801/530-6511
Website:http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/pharmacy.html

Vermont Board of Pharmacy
Ronald J. Klein
Executive Officer
89 Main St, Third Floor
Montpelier, VT, 05620-3402
Office: 802/828-2733
Fax: 802/828-2465
Website:https://www.sec.state.vt.us/professional-regulation/professions/pharmacy.aspx
Contact:[email protected]

Virginia Board of Pharmacy
Caroline Juran
Executive Director
Perimeter Center, 9960 Mayland Drive, Suite 300
Henrico, VA, 23233-1463
Office: 804-367-4456
Fax: 804-527-4472
Website:http://www.dhp.virginia.gov/pharmacy
Office Email:[email protected]

Washington State Pharmacy Quality Assurance Commission
Chris Humberson
Executive Director
PO Box 47852
Olympia, WA, 98504-7852
Office: 360/236-4946
Fax: 360/236-4825
Website:http://www.doh.wa.gov/LicensesPermi...fessionsNewReneworUpdate/BoardofPharmacy.aspx
Office Email:[email protected]

West Virginia Board of Pharmacy
David E. Potters
Executive Director and General Counsel
2310 Kanawha Blvd E
Charleston, WV, 25311
Office: 304-558-0558
Fax: 304-558-0572
Website:http://www.wvbop.com/
Office Email:[email protected]

Wisconsin Pharmacy Examining Board
Dan Williams
Bureau Director
PO Box 8935
Madison, WI, 53708-8935
Office: 608/266-2112
Fax: 608/267-0644
Website:http://dsps.wi.gov/Default.aspx?Page=50667d91-727c-4c8c-9236-a643a06a5bb0
Office Email:[email protected]

Wyoming State Board of Pharmacy
Mary K. Walker
Executive Director
1712 Carey Ave., Suite 200
Cheyenne, WY, 82002
Office: 307-634-9636
Fax: 307-634-6335
Website:http://pharmacyboard.state.wy.us/
Office Email:[email protected]

 

[y0ssarian87]

Nice work. I think there should be more pressures on the schools of pharmacy, too. When people have discussions here about pharmacy jobs after graduation and admissions statistics, it becomes quickly apparent that individuals rely only on anecdotal evidence. I think transparency is sorely needed. If we could have a resource similar to lawschooltransparency.com, that would be a great first step.

Due to my current feelings of uncertainty regarding pharmacy school, I decided to reach out to the ACPE for assistance. Below you will find the director's response and my original email. I have been calling hospitals in a 75-mile radius surrounding the pharmacy school I will attend in the fall. I have been told that many hospitals are no longer hiring pharmacy interns. At this point, I am wondering if pharmacy students should look into writing their congressmen, the Secretary of Education (Arne Duncan), and maybe a media source (20/20) about the oversaturation issue...

 

[oldstock]

Nice work. I think there should be more pressures on the schools of pharmacy, too. When people have discussions here about pharmacy jobs after graduation and admissions statistics, it becomes quickly apparent that individuals rely only on anecdotal evidence. I think transparency is sorely needed. If we could have a resource similar to lawschooltransparency.com, that would be a great first step.

let us start !!

 

[BMBiology]

I am sorry you have to face the full effect of the saturation.

There is nothing the ACPE can do because they can't regulate the number of schools. The established pharmacy schools could have made the guidelines stricter but they didn't because that would also mean they would need to spend more money and they would not be able to expand as well. It is all about the money at this point.

I applaud you for your effort tho. Unlike other prepharmacy students, you are not putting your head in the sand hoping it would get better. I talk to pharmacy students and I often see the worries and fears in their eyes. The risk they are taking is huge. You seem to know this. Remember it is not too late to turn around for you.

 

[BMBiology]

I would recommend forwarding your email to all the pharmacy school deans. They must know what they are doing, the false hope they are repeating, the young lives they are destroying.

 

[Gombrich12]

Why are you wasting your time on this as an incoming student? When I see a burning building I am running the other way instead of trying to grab a few valuables before the whole thing collapses. If you want to help, don't give a pharmacy school $150,000 for four years of mediocre teaching and poor job prospects. Also, try to convince as many people as you can not to go to pharmacy school. This is the only way forward other than the government putting a cap on student loan availability to poorly performing programs.

 

[FarmACollegeE]

Why are you wasting your time on this as an incoming student? When I see a burning building I am running the other way instead of trying to grab a few valuables before the whole thing collapses. If you want to help, don't give a pharmacy school $150,000 for four years of mediocre teaching and poor job prospects. Also, try to convince as many people as you can not to go to pharmacy school. This is the only way forward other than the government putting a cap on student loan availability to poorly performing programs.

My God......

OP:Intern positions are hard to land, but your bizarre obsession with this and the end of pharmacy as we know it (ZOMG!!!) speaks very much to your lack of confidence and insufficiencies you feel you have. I'll let you in on a little secret, if you are a good student, attend a good school, and have a good personality, you can do whatever you like, especially at an established school (like the one you're attending this coming year).

Basically, nut up.

There's a range on this forum:
Ignorant idealist with no attempt to see the actual context of the field (the "I want to save lives and be called 'Dr'" folks)
Realist with a full understanding of the field and health care (your average pharm student w/functioning brain cells)
Pessimist (the "doom and gloom'ers", basically pharm haters and disgruntled professionals)

Unfortunately, most posters occupy both ends of the spectrum, with few in-between....probably because the in-betweeners are busy enjoying life.

 

[oldstock]

My God......

OP:Intern positions are hard to land, but your bizarre obsession with this and the end of pharmacy as we know it (ZOMG!!!) speaks very much to your lack of confidence and insufficiencies you feel you have. I'll let you in on a little secret, if you are a good student, attend a good school, and have a good personality, you can do whatever you like, especially at an established school (like the one you're attending this coming year).

Basically, nut up.

There's a range on this forum:
Ignorant idealist with no attempt to see the actual context of the field (the "I want to save lives and be called 'Dr'" folks)
Realist with a full understanding of the field and health care (your average pharm student w/functioning brain cells)
Pessimist (the "doom and gloom'ers", basically pharm haters and disgruntled professionals)

Unfortunately, most posters occupy both ends of the spectrum, with few in-between....probably because the in-betweeners are busy enjoying life.

if I were that good, I would be some investment banker instead, what's pharmacy ?? LOL jk

you obviously think that schools opening left and right will not affect you because you are going to a good school, are a good student, and have good personality. Can do whatever you like ?? Confident !! you will probably enjoying life while everyone else is suffering. Double LOL

Come back in 5 years and update on how you are doing. Then I would take what you say about doing whatever you like more seriously

 

[oldstock]

Just answer to FarmACollegeE's post above and I realize that this would turn negative if I am not careful. I will ignore posts like that in this thread from now on and call people to do the same. I hope this thread would not turn negative.

Please people who do not want to standup to join this effort to stop this uncontrolled and irresponsible expansion of schools or do not have any proposed solution to this problem, please refrain posting in this thread and save your energy and/or sarcasm somewhere else.

For those who would like to contribute to this effort or offer ideas or solutions, please jump in !! Thank you very much !!

 

[HobbitJane]

@FarmACollegeE It is hard to have confidence in myself because I used to be an idealist, but I have come to the realization that no matter how hard I try, it will never be good enough for some people. I have no idea what to believe anymore, so I err on the side of caution. I feel like my eight year plan will lead to a mountain of debt, unemployment, and bring disgrace upon my family. Apart from SDN, I have read the forums on Indeed.com and other sites and all I hear is "Get Out!". If your life depended on pharmacy, I think you would be just as concerned as me. If potential employers do not want to network with me because I do not have "the look", then I'm screwed. In public, I put on a brave, optimistic face but I come on this site because no one else in my life can offer informed advice.

 

[blueheron]

My God......

OP:Intern positions are hard to land, but your bizarre obsession with this and the end of pharmacy as we know it (ZOMG!!!) speaks very much to your lack of confidence and insufficiencies you feel you have. I'll let you in on a little secret, if you are a good student, attend a good school, and have a good personality, you can do whatever you like, especially at an established school (like the one you're attending this coming year).

Basically, nut up.

There's a range on this forum:
Ignorant idealist with no attempt to see the actual context of the field (the "I want to save lives and be called 'Dr'" folks)
Realist with a full understanding of the field and health care (your average pharm student w/functioning brain cells)
Pessimist (the "doom and gloom'ers", basically pharm haters and disgruntled professionals)

Unfortunately, most posters occupy both ends of the spectrum, with few in-between....probably because the in-betweeners are busy enjoying life.

Agreed. The best will find good jobs.

 

[trailerpark]

@FarmACollegeE It is hard to have confidence in myself because I used to be an idealist, but I have come to the realization that no matter how hard I try, it will never be good enough for some people. I have no idea what to believe anymore, so I err on the side of caution. I feel like my eight year plan will lead to a mountain of debt, unemployment, and bring disgrace upon my family. Apart from SDN, I have read the forums on Indeed.com and other sites and all I hear is "Get Out!". If your life depended on pharmacy, I think you would be just as concerned as me. If potential employers do not want to network with me because I do not have "the look", then I'm screwed. In public, I put on a brave, optimistic face but I come on this site because no one else in my life can offer informed advice.

To err is human. And I doubt any degree will disgrace your family. Why not do 2 years at a CC and then 3 at a accelerated pharmD program and then cut your 8 years to 5 and save a ton of money.

 

[HobbitJane]

To err is human. And I doubt any degree will disgrace your family. Why not do 2 years at a CC and then 3 at a accelerated pharmD program and then cut your 8 years to 5 and save a ton of money.

Please do not encourage people to attend pharmacy school, it is making the market worse. If someone expresses doubts, confirm them, and steer them away from this field. It is too late for me; I already graduated with a bachelor of science degree from my university. If only I knew the gamble I was taking, I would have gone the pre-med track. At family gatherings, I have heard sighs and people commenting that I should have gone to medical school. Even on the pre-med forum, they think pre-pharmacy/pharmacy students are idiots because a bachelor's degree is not required for admission into some pharmacy schools. I'm just fed up with life at this point. If I can't find a job, then I will end this journey on my own terms.

 

[trailerpark]

Are you thinking about going back to med school? Are your loans paid down?

 

[oldstock]

Please do not encourage people to attend pharmacy school, it is making the market worse. If someone expresses doubts, confirm them, and steer them away from this field. It is too late for me; I already graduated with a bachelor of science degree (GPA: 4.0) from my university (details withheld for anonymity). If only I knew the gamble I was taking, I would have gone the pre-med track. At family gatherings, I have heard sighs and people commenting that I should have gone to medical school. Even on the pre-med forum, they think pre-pharmacy/pharmacy students are idiots because a bachelor's degree is not required for admission into some pharmacy schools. I'm just fed up with life at this point. If I can't find a job, then I will end this journey on my own terms.

It is not too late for you or for even for me. In fact, I am studying for the MCAT now. Pre-pharm and pre-med are very similar. I see you already have very excellent grades. You do not have to go on with this. Go read and ask questions over in the Pre-med forum.

At this point, this is more realistic than trying to change things in pharmacy as it seems like nobody wanna fight to change anything.

 

[oldstock]

To err is human. And I doubt any degree will disgrace your family. Why not do 2 years at a CC and then 3 at a accelerated pharmD program and then cut your 8 years to 5 and save a ton of money.

undergrad debts are next to nothing compared to the debts for pharmacy school

 

[oldstock]

Are you thinking about going back to med school? Are your loans paid down?

it doesn't matter. If the OP decided to continue on and go to pharmacy school, his/her loan situation will be still the same.

 

[confettiflyer]

Just my q6month PSA:

ACPE, by law (Sherman Antitrust Act, remember your history lesson on Standard Oil), CAN NOT regulate the number or size of pharmacy schools. ACPE retains special accrediting powers as a DOE recognized entity, and if it even starts to smell like it is regulating the market, that designation will be yanked so quickly and a new accrediting entity will be formed to take its place.

Basically, your only option to regulate the number of schools is to repeal the Sherman Antitrust Act. Goodluck with that one.

See my other more detailed posts on this subject over the past.... 4-5 years.

 

[oldstock]

Just my q6month PSA:

ACPE, by law (Sherman Antitrust Act, remember your history lesson on Standard Oil), CAN NOT regulate the number or size of pharmacy schools. ACPE retains special accrediting powers as a DOE recognized entity, and if it even starts to smell like it is regulating the market, that designation will be yanked so quickly and a new accrediting entity will be formed to take its place.

Basically, your only option to regulate the number of schools is to repeal the Sherman Antitrust Act. Goodluck with that one.

See my other more detailed posts on this subject over the past.... 4-5 years.

I still believe something should/must be done about this mad expansion of schools driven by schools' greed capitalizing on easy student loans. The DOE should deny federal student loans to diploma mills just like they do to Carribean med schools until the schools prove that they are not just in for the money but actually taking care of their students to make sure them to be successful in their schools and post grad/professional practice.

If that happens, this problem will be solved !!


“Those who believe that liberal democracy and the free market can be defended by the force of law and regulation alone, without an internalised sense of duty and morality, are tragically mistaken.”
― Jonathan Sacks
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/free-market

 

[HobbitJane]

Are you thinking about going back to med school? Are your loans paid down?

I have debt from my undergraduate years. At this point, I have dreams of settling down; therefore, going to medical school seems out of reach because of the time commitment to do research/get published, obtain additional patient care experience, study for the MCAT and travel for interviews. I decided that I have made my bed and I must sleep in it.

 

[oldstock]

I have debt from my undergraduate years ~$15,000. At this point, I have dreams of settling down; therefore, going to medical school seems out of reach because of the time commitment to do research/get published, obtain additional patient care experience, study for the MCAT and travel for interviews. I decided that I have made my bed and I must sleep in it. Maybe this is God's will.

sorry to chime in, but I would like to say that knowing all these info and still going for it is crazy. You do not have to. If you want to go to med school like you said above, it is not impossible as you already have the grades, which is one of the most difficult things for pre-med next to the MCAT.

By the time you and I graduate in 2018, they might even require a residency for retails/community pharmacy. (It would be very likely the more pharmacy schools are out there pumping more and more new pharmacists). So the time commitment is not that much different from going to med schools. Studying for the MCAT and building some more EC are not that bad as I would estimate 1 year max for me. One freaking extra year will make all the difference.

 

[confettiflyer]

I still believe something should/must be done about this mad expansion of schools driven by schools' greed capitalizing on easy student loans. The DOE should deny federal student loans to diploma mills just like they do to Carribean med schools until the schools prove that they are not just in for the money but actually taking care of their students to make sure them to be successful in their schools and post grad/professional practice.

If that happens, this problem will be solved !!

Heh...well the loophole (already employed by law schools) would for schools to hire their own graduates to inflate employment figures.

And I believe federal students loans are available to some Caribbean medical schools.

The problem is, if you apply the employment standard to pharmacy schools, you'd have to do so across the board to every degree granting entity in the United States. Law of unintended consequences could lead to a severe shortage of pharmacists like we see with primary care physicians and anesthesiologists, which sounds good and dandy until you realize NP's and CRNA's have made inroads because of such shortages.

I think there's too much focus/energy on an unrealistic legislative/capacity control method to improving pharmacy outlook. The fastest, most efficient, and most proven legal method is to stimulate demand for services.

Starting a pharmacist run hypertension clinic, pushing for billing laws to be updated, and proving cost-effectiveness under the ACO model is far more feasible than attempting to overturning a 124 year old law.

Or put it this way....in the fall of 2013, there were 62,743 pharmacy students within P1-P4. If you cut capacity across the board magically by 10%, you remove 6,274 pharmacists from the workforce. As of 2012, there are 5,723 hospitals in the United States. If you magically had each one just add ONE extra pharmacist, you've almost done the equivalent.

In summary: please stop writing f*cking stupid useless letters to ACPE/AACP/NABP/Congress/Obama and go solve this oversaturation problem yourself. Get as educated as you can and embrace additional training, help your preceptors and clinical faculty justify additional services via PE studies or pilot projects, lobbying might help so go ahead if that turns you on, existing pharmacists should encourage their colleagues to get the hell out of the basement and stop thinking of pharmacy as a product-based profession.

 

[oldstock]

Heh...well the loophole (already employed by law schools) would for schools to hire their own graduates to inflate employment figures.

And I believe federal students loans are available to some Caribbean medical schools.

The problem is, if you apply the employment standard to pharmacy schools, you'd have to do so across the board to every degree granting entity in the United States. Law of unintended consequences could lead to a severe shortage of pharmacists like we see with primary care physicians and anesthesiologists, which sounds good and dandy until you realize NP's and CRNA's have made inroads because of such shortages.

the majority of Carribean med schools are not qualified for fed student loans. Only 4 are qualified. And only because they have excellent and proven records on USMLE, residency placement, etc.

I am half-agreed with you about having to be consistent across the board. But there are cases that we are not that consistent even at this time. I am lazy to pull a search to give you a link now, but I think I read in the thread of California Nothstate that their students still have not been able to qualify/obtain fed student loans yet. Then again, the examples of Caribbean med schools.

but shortage is much better because we can easily produce more pharmacists. Letting schools popping up like crazy is a problem which is more difficult to control imho.

I think there's too much focus/energy on an unrealistic legislative/capacity control method to improving pharmacy outlook. The fastest, most efficient, and most proven legal method is to stimulate demand for services.

Starting a pharmacist run hypertension clinic, pushing for billing laws to be updated, and proving cost-effectiveness under the ACO model is far more feasible than attempting to overturning a 124 year old law.

you are already a practicing pharmacist. Please us more about this idea.

Or put it this way....in the fall of 2013, there were 62,743 pharmacy students within P1-P4. If you cut capacity across the board magically by 10%, you remove 6,274 pharmacists from the workforce.

how would you do that ??

As of 2012, there are 5,723 hospitals in the United States. If you magically had each one just add ONE extra pharmacist, you've almost done the equivalent.

how would you do that ??

In summary: please stop writing f*cking stupid useless lettzers to ACPE/AACP/NABP/Congress/Obama

I am glad to get you all fired up !! LOL

but all in all, I do not think that it is stupid at all to write those letters. For the least, this would bring more awareness and attention to this problem.

and go solve this oversaturation problem yourself. Get as educated as you can and embrace additional training, help your preceptors and clinical faculty justify additional services via PE studies or pilot projects, lobbying might help so go ahead if that turns you on, existing pharmacists should encourage their colleagues to get the hell out of the basement and stop thinking of pharmacy as a product-based profession.

pharmacy can invent novel services or the more of them but the important thing is getting the insurance to pay for those services. Also pharmacy have been more of "service-based" profession for a long time now imho. Tell me when the last time you actually "make" any physical "product" and sell that to a client ?? From my observation, it would probably be more selling a service(s) that is/are accompanied a product (e.g. drugs that are already made by drug companies) or service/consulting/counseling alone.

 

[BMBiology]

Just my q6month PSA:

ACPE, by law (Sherman Antitrust Act, remember your history lesson on Standard Oil), CAN NOT regulate the number or size of pharmacy schools. ACPE retains special accrediting powers as a DOE recognized entity, and if it even starts to smell like it is regulating the market, that designation will be yanked so quickly and a new accrediting entity will be formed to take its place.

Basically, your only option to regulate the number of schools is to repeal the Sherman Antitrust Act. Goodluck with that one.

See my other more detailed posts on this subject over the past.... 4-5 years.

The problem is not the antitrust act. The problem is the low standards to open a pharmacy school. The standards can and should be changed.

 

[oldstock]

The problem is not the antitrust act. The problem is the low standards to open a pharmacy school. The standards can and should be changed.

I think KidPharmD already said that schools (even the established ones) do not want any change though. Of course they have people who represent their interests so that any proposal for change would not see the light of day.

 

[BMBiology]

I think KidPharmD already said that schools (even the established ones) do not want any change though. Of course they have people who represent their interests so that any proposal for change would not see the light of day.

Yup that is exactly right. Higher standards mean higher cost for the established schools. It doesn't matter to them the market is already saturated. They will get paid regardless if their graduates will find a job. The ironic thing is that all of these pharmacy schools are always talking about advancing the profession from a dispensing role to a clinical role but by saturating the market and significantly increasing tuition, the top and well informed students are avoiding the profession like plague.

 

[oldstock]

Yup that is exactly right. Higher standards mean higher cost for the established schools. It doesn't matter to them the market is already saturated. They will get paid regardless if their graduates will find a job. The ironic thing is that all of these pharmacy schools are always talking about advancing the profession from a dispensing role to a clinical role but by saturating the market and significantly increasing tuition, the top and well informed students are avoiding the profession like plague.

well, I do not expect them saying anything different than that. Of course they say they want to advance the profession. In life, usually the best BS'ers win. It is all about the money. Follow the money

 

[confettiflyer]

the majority of Carribean med schools are not qualified for fed student loans. Only 4 are qualified. And only because they have excellent and proven records on USMLE, residency placement, etc.

I guess all my friends go to one of those 4.

but I think I read in the thread of California Nothstate that their students still have not been able to qualify/obtain fed student loans yet.

That hinged on regional accreditation...a completely separate process that governs all higher ed. Still ties into DOE/market regulations though.

but shortage is much better because we can easily produce more pharmacists. Letting schools popping up like crazy is a problem which is more difficult to control imho.

But the pendulum swings both ways.

you are already a practicing pharmacist. Please us more about this idea.

how would you do that ??

how would you do that ??

This is regarding the increasing demand part. You embed yourself as a practitioner in as many places within a hospital as possible...ED pharmacy, intake/transition of care, ICU specialty pharmacists, medical ward/discharge planning in areas with targeted readmission avoidance plans. Take an active role in the clinical management of shortages (not just "oh shat we don't have it...order something else"). Play a central role in patient safety initiatives. There's a bunch of stuff...most places do this already, there's always room for improvement/expansion.

For outpatient stuff, find your key physician allies and set up collaborative practice agreements with physicians that serve the population of your hospital.

As for that cut pharmacy school capacity thing... you can't, that was just a numerical example. As for increasing hiring at every hospital in the country...competent pharmacists in leadership/clinical roles should be doing their part to expand their departments and constantly redefine roles for their staff...as well as commit their staff to career-long training and continuous learning/improvement.

pharmacy can invent novel services or the more of them but the important thing is getting the insurance to pay for those services.

Most of the examples I listed don't involve billing insurance.

Also pharmacy have been more of "service-based" profession for a long time now imho. Tell me when the last time you actually "make" any physical "product" and sell that to a client ??

I'm not talking about "making" I'm talking about dispensing (lick, stick, pour). You'd be surprised how many places only focus on the product...maybe some obvious drug interactions, and send it out.

From my observation, it would probably be more selling a service(s) that is/are accompanied a product (e.g. drugs that are already made by drug companies) or service/consulting/counseling alone.

That's what I was talking about.

 

[Irelia]

Wow @HobbitJane I see that your perspective on pharmacy field changed drastically in last few months. Because from what I remember you were (or are excited) about going to University of Arizona College of Pharmacy. I mean just by your opinions/reactions, my advice is that you should probably go to medical school if you feel that you cannot find a job later with a career in pharmacy in the future. (and UA COP is not that good in my opinion compare to how the school is ranked)

 

[BMBiology]

I have debt from my undergraduate years ~$15,000. At this point, I have dreams of settling down; therefore, going to medical school seems out of reach because of the time commitment to do research/get published, obtain additional patient care experience, study for the MCAT and travel for interviews. I decided that I have made my bed and I must sleep in it. Maybe this is God's will.

It is not too late for you. You have the credentials. Once you are in this profession, you will realize things are not going to change. People have been talking about clinical pharmacy for the last 30 years. The job market will be much worse when you graduate because all of these new schools will be pumping out their first class. They are still growing. Nothing is going to change that.

Don't try to stop the flood with your hands. Get out while you still can.

 

[Silent Cool]

Great thanks!

Did not know ACPE is an advocate of free market system and Capitalism!

False.

Apparently Dr. Boyer doesn't know what a free market system is.
The current educational system is anything but a free market system. Instead, it is very much a government-controlled and -fueled system.

A free market system would be one in which the federal student loan system did not exist and the actual market demand set the number of schools AND costs.

@HobbitJane
You should write him back and tell his dumb a$$ that.