Recently discovered I have 3 IA's

[MadeAFewMistakes]

So some background information. I graduated from undergrad in 2016, making my freshmen year 2012. While filling out my AMCAS application this year I checked the box saying I have had no IA's because I did not remember having any disciplinary actions against me. However, recently I was reading forums and discovered that IA's do not have to mean I was punished for something. I contacted my undergrad school and they said I have three IA's. One is cut and dry I had an underage drinking minor my freshmen year and have gotten it expunged, but my school asked me to see a counselor to talk about the dangers of alcohol abuse. I felt like the required meeting was to help me in case I had an issue, but it turns out it is on my school record. The second incident was when I attended a dorm party, which had alcohol. I was not drinking but was written up and was asked to have a meeting with someone who was trying to get me to tell them who's was the person supplying alcohol. I didn't know and wouldn't have told them even if I did, but none-the-less I did not remember this instant when filling out my apps and still do not see it as a disciplinary action. The third incident happened while I was leaving the homecoming concert my freshmen year. I was detained for suspicion of stealing merchandise from a vendor. This was a false accusation. I did not steal anything and they had no evidence against me, but they took down my name and contacted the school. The school told me to have a meeting and I explained they had me mistaken and that I never took anything. There was no further action besides the fact that this is now on my record. Since I have already submitted my primary app AMCAS has informed me that I am unable to change this information and I should just email the schools directly, which I plan to do. Is all hope lost?? should I just apply to DO and disclose these issues upfront on my primary. Is the Carribean my only option??

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[esob]

1. I'm not sure if that is something AMCAS will even let you update, but if they do, you certainly should
2. I don't know that DO's are any more forgiving of IA's than MD schools, especially when you have 3 of them.
3. Do you have a chance? Well, I think a lot of that depends on if you can get all of the IA's legitimately expunged. If you can't, it's simply your word that the IA's didn't count for anything and that you were simply an innocent bystander.
4. I'm not going to lie and say that this is the most IA's I've ever seen someone admit to, so I imagine that, unless you are a superstar candidate, most schools will simply not mess with you because there are way less than seats than applicants and the vast majority of applicants don't have any IA's.

 

[holdthemayo]

I had 3 IA's when I applied, but I was very upfront about them. The drinking ones are not a big deal in my opinion. They are 6 years old, you are presumably of age now, and most importantly you didn't drink and drive. No one is likely to care that you had a few beers in your dorm.

The theft could be a bigger issue. I'm confused why your university would list it if it has been expunged. If it truly isn't on your record then there is nothing to report.

Check with your college on how many IA's you have. They may very well tell you that there is nothing to report, or they may tell you to report all three.

You would have been better off being upfront about all of this. It's late in the cycle, but you could make an effort to update schools.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I had 3 IA's when I applied, but I was very upfront about them. The drinking ones are not a big deal in my opinion. They are 6 years old, you are presumably of age now, and most importantly you didn't drink and drive. No one is likely to care that you had a few beers in your dorm.

The theft could be a bigger issue. I'm confused why your university would list it if it has been expunged. If it truly isn't on your record then there is nothing to report.

Check with your college on how many IA's you have. They may very well tell you that there is nothing to report, or they may tell you to report all three.

You would have been better off being upfront about all of this. It's late in the cycle, but you could make an effort to update schools.

I believe that even if it has been expunged you are still required to report it, as they ask if you have ever had an IA. I bet @gonnif knows for sure.

 

[DocJanItor]

1. you must report even if no official record exist (see below).
2. Even though records do not exist, people’s memory do. Who knows what may be mentioned in passing and even in support that will imply an IA.
3. After acceptance, many schools require a dean’s letter that specifically ask about any IA even those expunged.
4. It is ironic you aretrying to enter a profession that highly values ethical and professional behavior by considering a highly unethical and professional behavior

https://aamc-orange.global.ssl.fast...b-d574221bf6e3/2019-amcas-applicant-guide.pdf
Institutional Action
If you were ever the recipient of any institutional action by any college or medical school for unacceptable academic performance or conduct violation, you must answer Yes, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. Furthermore, select Yes even if the action does not appear on, or has been deleted or expunged from, your official transcripts as a consequence of institutional policy or personal petition.
Failure to provide an accurate answer to the question about institutional action or, if applicable, failure to complete the form provided by the school will result in an investigation. Medical schools require you to answer the question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable medical schools to evaluate the information more effectively within the context of your application.
If you become the subject of an institutional action after certifying and submitting the AMCAS application, you must inform your designated medical school(s) within 10 business days of the date of the occurrence.

Gonnif, although I don't entirely disagree with your assessment, I do have a few qualms.

The first is that no one is going to remember random student X from any reasonably sized university unless this kid was a constant, serious problem that required the Dean's attention. Also, I've never heard of a Dean's letter before admission to medical school, only before residency. The only thing I had to do was submit to a background check which reports criminal activity.

The second is that ethical behavior is not a set of concrete rules. Although many groups subscribe to a large portion of the same rules, that does not automatically make them universally "right". If this student is telling the truth, his school's use of IAs seems capricious and unnecessarily damaging - in one instance they've punished him for merely associating with misdeeds.

Finally, the purpose of expungement is to wipe the slate clean at the school's discretion. Why should AMCAS or any medical school get to re-judge an expunged IA when it's already been dealt with by the school? It's essentially double jeopardy with higher stakes and fewer facts.

I'm all about professional behavior and being an ethical person, but you can only play by the rules when the rules are fair. If you commit a crime and serve your punishment and have your record cleaned, that should be the end of it for all but the most secure of professions (FBI, CIA, etc.) We punish criminals twice by ruining their job prospects after release. We shouldn't be doing this to young students.

 

[DocJanItor]

Yeah I believe AMCAs says you do not have to report anything that was expunged, but you should fact check that on the official AMCA site OP

You definitely have to report it: https://students-residents.aamc.org...cle/sections-1-3-your-background-information/

 

[deleted915325]

You definitely have to report it: https://students-residents.aamc.org...cle/sections-1-3-your-background-information/

Well that’s unfortunate. Sorry OP. Guess you gotta report it.

Nevetheless, although I was cited and reported an IA for underage drinking on my AMCA, I still had multiple acceptances, so don’t let it deter/worry you too much if you have other strong parts on your app. People live and they learn and admission committees understand that as long as you show growth. Of all my interviews, only 1 interviewer brought up my IA and it was in passing.

Personally I would email the schools you applied to and notify them of the mistake on your app with a summary of what happened and what you learned from the incidents. The last thing you want is to be accepted somewhere and then have that acceptance revoked because of a nonreported IA. If that happens, you’ll be red flagged forever.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I don't understand how you can get an IA for not drinking at a party and also for not stealing. You need to contact the school and have this removed from your record because talking to you without proof or consequence isn't a real IA

 

[DocJanItor]

Between medical licensing, state regulations, hospital system policy, and accepted medical protocol, there will be many rules that physicians adhere to, whether or not they agree with them. In some ways this is akin to the idea from Shakspeare that Caesar’s wife must be above reproach. AMCAS/AAMC, as the representative of the medical colleges, has deemed this information required as part of the admissions process. The unethical behavior here would be ignoring the requirement.

As to whether that rule should be in place, the fairness lies solely in the fact that a student is not required to apply to medical school. However, once they choose to do so, they have entered into that agreement to provide information required.

As for deans letters, as more schools become associated with larger “coporate” health system, there is much emphasis placed on reducing risk, especially to reputation. Many more medical schools are doing indepth post-admissions / pre-matriculation checks above and beyond the basic criminal background check. This due diligence can include contacting school registrar, requiring dean’s letter, indepth searches via automated systems on SSN/DOB, etc. I have been thru more than one discussion if polygraphs/fingerprints should be required prior to admission.

My comment about about people’s memory comes from a real incident where an LOR had a passing reference mentioned in support (something along the lines “applicant has matured from his freshman incident”). of course there was no mentioned of what was a low level IA on AMCAS. If one thing we should have learned from Watergate is that the coverup is worse than the crime

What's the point of expungement if it still counts against you? Schools make up their own rules, which can range from lax to ridiculously strict. Second, application of said rules is often carried out by fellow students. Last, schools hold kangaroo courts in which guilt is essentially presumed and one must prove their innocence.

Not to mention that AMCAS specifically states that misdemeanors and felonies should not be disclosed if they occurred as a juvenile or if they've been expunged by a court. Why should IAs be different if they're being expunged by their own administrative body?

Also, the concept of using a polygraph is patently ridiculous. First off, they have a terrible PPV. Secondly, any idiot (and I hope most future doctors) could nullify them easily. At some point there has to be a level of trust between institutions and their students/employees, otherwise we're all just going to end up as drones or enemies of the state in 1984.

 

[holdthemayo]

1. you must report even if no official record exist (see below).
2. Even though records do not exist, people’s memory do. Who knows what may be mentioned in passing and even in support that will imply an IA.
3. After acceptance, many schools require a dean’s letter that specifically ask about any IA even those expunged.
4. It is ironic you aretrying to enter a profession that highly values ethical and professional behavior by considering a highly unethical and professional behavior

https://aamc-orange.global.ssl.fast...b-d574221bf6e3/2019-amcas-applicant-guide.pdf
Institutional Action
If you were ever the recipient of any institutional action by any college or medical school for unacceptable academic performance or conduct violation, you must answer Yes, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. Furthermore, select Yes even if the action does not appear on, or has been deleted or expunged from, your official transcripts as a consequence of institutional policy or personal petition.
Failure to provide an accurate answer to the question about institutional action or, if applicable, failure to complete the form provided by the school will result in an investigation. Medical schools require you to answer the question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable medical schools to evaluate the information more effectively within the context of your application.
If you become the subject of an institutional action after certifying and submitting the AMCAS application, you must inform your designated medical school(s) within 10 business days of the date of the occurrence.

I missed this part when reading OP's predicament

I contacted my undergrad school and they said I have three IA's.

I thought that he was uncertain if he had 3 IA's because he wasn't punished. I agree that OP needs to report them.

I stand by my advice that if you aren't sure if you have an IA you should contact your school. My university was quickly able to direct me to the appropriate person who could tell me if I had received an IA (I had). I'm honestly confused about how doing so could be a violation of AMCAS, especially since many undergraduate schools don't use the terminology "Institutional Action."

I have been thru more than one discussion if polygraphs/fingerprints should be required prior to admission.

Fingerprinting makes sense, its required to rotate at the VA and probably elsewhere. Requiring a polygraph for admissions would be begging for a lawsuit, if it isn't already covered by EPPA.

 

[DocJanItor]

There is a large difference between the way AMCAS treats expungement of criminal records as opposed to schools.

1) legal system follows a rather rigorous and mostly uniform system via the CPL (criminal procedure law) across states. As you pointed out, schools do not have uniformity

2) even so, AMCAS has many exceptions listed as many states have slightly varying laws on reporting expungements.

3) even so, some states will classify some acts differently. For examply Ohio and Virgina have certain speeding tickets classified misdemeanors which must be reported as where most states have them as violations.

And again, whether or not you agree with the rules, this reality that students must apply under. I generally deal with the reality when advising students and not judging the system. All that banging my head against the wall accomplished was giving myself a headache

I appreciate the discussion, Gonnif, as well as your position.

 

[Goro]

What's the point of expungement if it still counts against you? Schools make up their own rules, which can range from lax to ridiculously strict. Second, application of said rules is often carried out by fellow students. Last, schools hold kangaroo courts in which guilt is essentially presumed and one must prove their innocence.

Not to mention that AMCAS specifically states that misdemeanors and felonies should not be disclosed if they occurred as a juvenile or if they've been expunged by a court. Why should IAs be different if they're being expunged by their own administrative body?

Also, the concept of using a polygraph is patently ridiculous. First off, they have a terrible PPV. Secondly, any idiot (and I hope most future doctors) could nullify them easily. At some point there has to be a level of trust between institutions and their students/employees, otherwise we're all just going to end up as drones or enemies of the state in 1984.

Expungement is for the UG school.

AMCAS, AACOMAS and med school don't care. You are confusing one end of the process (UG education) with another (application to medical school.

 

[DocJanItor]

Expungement is for the UG school.

AMCAS, AACOMAS and med school don't care. You are confusing one end of the process (UG education) with another (application to medical school.

I'm not confusing them at all. I'm comparing the expungement of undergrad infractions to the expungement of criminal infractions. One still has to be reported to AMCAS while the other does not. I'm sure that AMCAS would love to have all criminal records even if they're expunged were it not for the fact that it would be highly illegal.