Recruiters

[Twiggidy]

Just a quick question which may be a question new grads want to know. What the impact of using a recruiter when looking at a new practice? In essence, do they charge you as the recruit?

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[deleted171991]

Just a quick question which may be a question new grads want to know. What the impact of using a recruiter when looking at a new practice? In essence, do they charge you as the recruit?

Yes, indirectly. The practice will be charged a finder's fee that comes out of your salary (or you will never be told about the job). There's no such thing as a free lunch. 😉

I would never use a recruiter, simply because I still haven't met anybody who's found a good job through one. And I think most of them are nothing more than incompetent/sleazy salesmen, looking for a quick buck.

 

[BeatriZZ]

FFPs response is on the cynical side. I've been at my current gig now since I finished residency in 2013 and aren't planning to leave soon. I found it through a recruiter and it involves a commute but is a pretty easy and well paid gig. I make as much as my partners only some of whom I think were found by recruiters.
Only a fool would rule out a job offered by a recruiter. Look at all your options and do your homework.
But no they don't charge you. They do however help facilitate interviews, they follow up with both parties after your interview because they only get paid if you actually sign on so it's their interest to make it happen if you really like the job.
They are really not much different than real estate agents

Yes, indirectly. The practice will be charged a finder's fee that comes out of your salary (or you will never be told about the job). There's no such thing as a free lunch. 😉

I would never use a recruiter, simply because I still haven't met anybody who's found a good job through one. And I think most of them are nothing more than incompetent/sleazy salesmen, looking for a quick buck.

 

[IMGASMD]

Some of the AMCs only will talk to you through their own recruiters. They’re usually decent sales people. They do make money off your back, but they have to eat somehow.
I think the thinking has always been if the practice is sooo good, there must be something wrong with the practice or they wouldn’t use a recruiter. To certain extent that is true, but I’ve talked to a few of the practices which were off the beaten path. No one would really thinking about look their direction, because they just aren’t visible. Or they’re so small, they just haven’t had anyone joining for the last x years.

To answer, usually they don’t charge. I’ve had two “services” contact me, especially want to be my agent and look for me. They wanted to charge like 7% of my first year salary with $1000 deposits. They do talk a good game, such as taking on only 100-200 clients a year, and they have contacts in every market. But they do try to place every speciality, it was a little difficult to let them know what “my” specific concerns are. From what I understand, right now the demand for anesthesiologists is high, you probably don’t need to pay to find a job.

 

[Twiggidy]

I feel like a good majority of Gaswork jobs (we can argue how good a Gaswork job is on another thread) involve recruiting

 

[IMGASMD]

A lot of AMCs jobs in my neck of the wood on gasworks. There were a very few private groups. Or AMC that sort of disguised as pp.

I did find one place that was pp on gasworks. Very low offer, with five year partnership. (Not a real partnership). Some of these PP are so out of touch, or still waiting for new grad to put in the sweat equity. But I also understand if they offer what amc offer right off the bat, then what?

 

[nimbus]

FWIW, I think every single practice in my town except the U and VA has recruited directly on Gaswork in the past few years. And there’s no AMCs here yet.

 

[Hoya11]

Just a quick question which may be a question new grads want to know. What the impact of using a recruiter when looking at a new practice? In essence, do they charge you as the recruit?

IMO a recruiter should be a red flag to both parties. The candidate should be thinking, god this job is so bad they need a recruiter to fill it? And the hiring group should be thinking, whats up with this candidate that they need a recruiter? is there a red flag im missing?

Typically there is no "cost" to the candidate but after the group pays 35k as the 10% fee to the recruiter, offering you that sign on bonus might not happen where other candidates without a recruiter got a bonus..

We had about 3 candidates from a recruiter in my time with the group. One demanded an incredible salary with a very subpar resume and we said no, one we hired and then fired within 6 months for anger issues, and one actually overdosed and died! prior to making a decision ... lots of strange people, im sure lots of normal candidate too, but my radar is up is a recruiter is involved

 

[Twiggidy]

IMO a recruiter should be a red flag to both parties. The candidate should be thinking, god this job is so bad they need a recruiter to fill it? And the hiring group should be thinking, whats up with this candidate that they need a recruiter? is there a red flag im missing?

Typically there is no "cost" to the candidate but after the group pays 35k as the 10% fee to the recruiter, offering you that sign on bonus might not happen where other candidates without a recruiter got a bonus..

We had about 3 candidates from a recruiter in my time with the group. One demanded an incredible salary with a very subpar resume and we said no, one we hired and then fired within 6 months for anger issues, and one actually overdosed and died! prior to making a decision ... lots of strange people, im sure lots of normal candidate too, but my radar is up is a recruiter is involved

I agree with the former and disagree with the later, to an extent, thought I see where you’re coming from given personal experience. Im sure many of us think we’d be great candidates for any job and we probably get recruiter emails every day, therefore I think a practice would be losing out if they judged my CV just because it came from a recruiter. Quite honestly, I got a recruiter email from a highly respected academic institution just the other day

 

[dchz]

I agree with the former and disagree with the later, to an extent, thought I see where you’re coming from given personal experience. Im sure many of us think we’d be great candidates for any job and we probably get recruiter emails every day, therefore I think a practice would be losing out if they judged my CV just because it came from a recruiter. Quite honestly, I got a recruiter email from a highly respected academic institution just the other day

Is it a UCSF non teaching position?

 

[Twiggidy]

Is it a UCSF non teaching position?

No, on the East coast. I still get lots of recruiting emails from East coast locations, a few that I wouldn't mind considering.

 

[IMGASMD]

Is it a UCSF non teaching position?

I saw that and had a very puzzled look on my face.

Expanding? Satellite hospital? Taking over by AMC?

 

[GravelRider]

The thing about recruiter ads on gasworks is that if you know the area, you can usually make a guess at the location. It’s when you are looking for a change a scenery that a recruiter could be helpful. However, my limited experience with recruiters has not been positive. Many of the ads have misleading information. They are similar to real estate agents in that they don’t always have your best interests at heart...they just want to close a deal and get paid.

 

[Twiggidy]

I saw that and had a very puzzled look on my face.

Expanding? Satellite hospital? Taking over by AMC?

There are a handful of "UCSF affiliates" that don't have residents rotate. This probably is true of a handful of other academic institutions as well.

 

[Twiggidy]

What happens if you work you way around the recruiter? Like say, you find out the institution but then “you know a guy” at that place? You could save both sides money right?

 

[cchoukal]

I saw that and had a very puzzled look on my face.

Expanding? Satellite hospital? Taking over by AMC?

More cases than people.

 

[dchz]

What happens if you work you way around the recruiter? Like say, you find out the institution but then “you know a guy” at that place? You could save both sides money right?

Are you asking for our permission on your ethical gray area? 😉

 

[GravelRider]

Usually recruiters won’t tell you the exact place until you hand them over a CV. Once they have your CV, they own you and collect on a finder’s fee even if they really didn’t facilitate anything.

Speaking of shady recruiters, American Healthcare has a posting on gasworks for a job with an income potential of over $1 million in the immediate NYC vicinity. I mean there are shady recruiters, but *deleted by mod* and his American Healthcare scam take it to a whole new level.

 

[Twiggidy]

Are you asking for our permission on your ethical gray area? 😉

Again, most of my questions are for the lurkers. I’m like 90% good with my current situation. Even if my job wasn’t that great I’m in a place with perfect weather....the whole “2 out of 3” concept from that other thread

 

[Twiggidy]

Usually recruiters won’t tell you the exact place until you hand them over a CV. Once they have your CV, they own you and collect on a finder’s fee even if they really didn’t facilitate anything.

Speaking of shady recruiters, American Healthcare has a posting on gasworks for a job with an income potential of over $1 million in the immediate NYC vicinity. I mean there are shady recruiters, but *deleted by mod* and his American Healthcare scam take it to a whole new level.

Yeah, that has scam written all over it, thus, my starting a thread like this. People need to be aware.

 

[dchz]

American Healthcare (vincent Kalra) on gaswork is a scamm. reiterating so whomever is scanning through this gets the message.

 

[IMGASMD]

What happens if you work you way around the recruiter? Like say, you find out the institution but then “you know a guy” at that place? You could save both sides money right?

I actually asked the recruiter. The one that actually works for me, and wanted to take a cut of my first year salary. I said one of the places that I am interested is my own program, I don’t really think I need you to negotiate much, would you take a fee cut? I think they still wanted like 4% or something as long as they’re involved in anyway.

Who is the Vincent guy, that everyone seemed to know?

 

[Twiggidy]

I actually asked the recruiter. The one that actually works for me, and wanted to take a cut of my first year salary. I said one of the places that I am interested is my own program, I don’t really think I need you to negotiate much, would you take a fee cut? I think they still wanted like 4% or something as long as they’re involved in anyway.

Who is the *deleted by mod* guy, that everyone seemed to know?

Wow. That still like 15-20 grand depending on the job

 

[AdmiralChz]

American Healthcare *deleted by mod* on gaswork is a scamm. reiterating so whomever is scanning through this gets the message.

Lesson number 1 for assessing gasworks jobs. Skip right over these.

 

[sevoflurane]

Do you really think a recruiter will offer you something uuu can’t find on you own?

 

[Twiggidy]

Do you really think a recruiter will offer you something uuu can’t find on you own?

I’ve gotten emails from a few recruiting for very good academic institutions in popular cities. Why would they faculty waste money on a recruiter and not use alumni and contacts?

 

[nimbus]

If recruiters are trolling Gaswork for candidates, what advantage are they offering to the practice? The group can post their own Gaswork ad. I think they are obsolete in this day and age, just another middle man trying to get their cut of the healthcare dollar. What value do they add?

 

[IMGASMD]

There were some practices whose partners are in 50+ range. They probably don’t know how or just don’t have time to be bothered, since they’re too busy counting dough?

All joking aside, there are plenty of non tech savvy people that would pay someone to do all the busy work for them. Like everyone said above, they’re paying the money from the new hires 1st/2nd/3rd year salary anyway. Not from their own pocket.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

If recruiters are trolling Gaswork for candidates, what advantage are they offering to the practice? The group can post their own Gaswork ad. I think they are obsolete in this day and age, just another middle man trying to get their cut of the healthcare dollar. What value do they add?

Some groups hide behind recruiters.

 

[skypilot]

Usually recruiters won’t tell you the exact place until you hand them over a CV. Once they have your CV, they own you and collect on a finder’s fee even if they really didn’t facilitate anything.

Speaking of shady recruiters, American Healthcare has a posting on gasworks for a job with an income potential of over $1 million in the immediate NYC vicinity. I mean there are shady recruiters, but *deleted by mod* and his American Healthcare scam take it to a whole new level.

Yes it is called "bait and switch." They place many blind ads on Gaswork hoping to recruit a candidate with a good CV. Once they get one they try to sell them to all the desperate, undesirable locations. The candidate is then offered a series of undesirable jobs and pressured to take one of them so the recruiter can earn their $35k. If the candidate is to busy to do their own legwork, they are better off hiring a secretary or personal assistant for a few months to make phone calls, research Anesthesia Practices, and field phone calls in the Candidate's desired target area.

 

[pgg]

What happens if you work you way around the recruiter? Like say, you find out the institution but then “you know a guy” at that place? You could save both sides money right?

Did you sign an agreement with the recruiter? Getting sued is costly ... saves nobody money. 🙂

If you find a buyer for your house with a real estate agent and then hook up with the buyer at a Starbucks to iron out the for sale by owner deal ... not only is that unethical, but you are probably open to civil action from the agent, assuming you signed some contract with the agent already (which of course you did).

Same thing with med recruiters. If they got you the lead, doesn't matter if you were unable to get it yourself, or to lazy to get it yourself, they earned their money, pay them.

Now, if some ad from a recruiter says something like "800 bed hospital in coastal Oregon" there's nothing to stop you from using Google to find 800 bed hospitals in coastal Oregon and cold calling them.

 

[Twiggidy]

Did you sign an agreement with the recruiter? Getting sued is costly ... saves nobody money. 🙂

If you find a buyer for your house with a real estate agent and then hook up with the buyer at a Starbucks to iron out the for sale by owner deal ... not only is that unethical, but you are probably open to civil action from the agent, assuming you signed some contract with the agent already (which of course you did).

Same thing with med recruiters. If they got you the lead, doesn't matter if you were unable to get it yourself, or to lazy to get it yourself, they earned their money, pay them.

Now, if some ad from a recruiter says something like "800 bed hospital in coastal Oregon" there's nothing to stop you from using Google to find 800 bed hospitals in coastal Oregon and cold calling them.

The very latter is what I was referring to. If you have no contractual relationship with a recruiter and by process of elimination or even if they slip the institution, what’s the problem with going straight to the source? Again I’m not using a recruiter as I’m cool where I am, but I did get an email once and asked “where is this?” and the recruiter just told me. Since I know this process cost both me and the institution money, why would I just not email the chair myself? Again, having not committed to that recruiter. Does simply sending them a CV make you “their guy”?

 

[Twiggidy]

Did you sign an agreement with the recruiter? Getting sued is costly ... saves nobody money. 🙂

If you find a buyer for your house with a real estate agent and then hook up with the buyer at a Starbucks to iron out the for sale by owner deal ... not only is that unethical, but you are probably open to civil action from the agent, assuming you signed some contract with the agent already (which of course you did).

Same thing with med recruiters. If they got you the lead, doesn't matter if you were unable to get it yourself, or to lazy to get it yourself, they earned their money, pay them.

Now, if some ad from a recruiter says something like "800 bed hospital in coastal Oregon" there's nothing to stop you from using Google to find 800 bed hospitals in coastal Oregon and cold calling them.

On the same note, I’ve told many a recruiter to piss off and then they still will email or call a month or two later....”Are you available for work?”....

Dude....

 

[pjl]

Speaking of the UCSF job that everyone got emailed about...was anyone else put off by the wording about giving special treatment to applicants who will “contribute to diversity and equal opportunity in medicine?”

Made me sad.

 

[Twiggidy]

Speaking of the UCSF job that everyone got emailed about...was anyone else put off by the wording about giving special treatment to applicants who will “contribute to diversity and equal opportunity in medicine?”

Made me sad.

Not me lol

 

[IMGASMD]

On the same note, I’ve told many a recruiter to piss off and then they still will email or call a month or two later....”Are you available for work?”....

Dude....

Usually it’s dudette.
But that also speaks to their field. They have to work “with” the physicians. Even though some of us are PITA.

I do find working with them sometimes it makes some things easier. They do have a little more knowledge than say a personal assistant who doesn’t even know what questions to ask. They hopefully will have a little more information about a location that you absolutely have no idea about. I’ve talked to a in-house recruiter, who obviously can smell my bull****, (a very remote small practice), a mile away.

I’ve worked with a Locums agent for a few years. I had a very particular schedule, she was able to find a few places who were open to my very spotty coverage. I also developed a friendly working relationship with her and she will be the go to person when I am back in the Locum game.

 

[narcotics999]

The very latter is what I was referring to. If you have no contractual relationship with a recruiter and by process of elimination or even if they slip the institution, what’s the problem with going straight to the source? Again I’m not using a recruiter as I’m cool where I am, but I did get an email once and asked “where is this?” and the recruiter just told me. Since I know this process cost both me and the institution money, why would I just not email the chair myself? Again, having not committed to that recruiter. Does simply sending them a CV make you “their guy”?

I think if the recruiter slips the hospital, you should not bypass him/her.

 

[MetaPhysicianBlog]

I feel like a good majority of Gaswork jobs (we can argue how good a Gaswork job is on another thread) involve recruiting

It sounds like some people think recruiters add value while others don't.

I wonder if we equate 'recruiters = gasworks'.

My question is are there other non-gaswork recruiters that add value?

 

[PhysicianRec]

Just a quick question which may be a question new grads want to know. What the impact of using a recruiter when looking at a new practice? In essence, do they charge you as the recruit?

Hi all, I wanted to add my two cents since I am a recruiter and I utilize this site using the classifieds area. I realize I am late to the game with my response, but figured this would be beneficial feedback for those who are also reading this thread now or in the future.

First things first... there are quite a few different Recruitment services. We teach this to our programs in-house, so when students leave they have a general idea.

• In-House Physician Recruitment: These are experienced HR professionals, such as myself, who are EMPLOYED directly through the hospital/school and work directly with the Chair/Chiefs on the search they are conducting. If someone with this background contacts you directly or you are privy to their contact information for a job of interest, take advantage of this as they are your “in” to the hiring manager. No fees, no hidden language, no commission. We work on retention and screen all applicants prior to submitting to the department.

• Contingency Agencies: Recruiters generally will only contact you if they have a role available, can come off as pushy. They only get paid by the practice if they find a viable candidate that has physically signed an offer letter. These fees are covered by the facility and can range from $20k-50k depending on subspecialty.

• Locums “RETAINED” Agencies: These are the agency folks that are usually soliciting you, as well as the hospitals almost daily insisting they have a job/applicant even if they don’t. When they are “retained”, they are paid an on-going rate by a facility to conduct a search. Generally, it is not in your best interest as they care about placement and not your overall well being or retention. You are brought on to fill a temporary void or to eventually have your contract bought out by establishment after a set period. Please keep in mind, this does not mean the establishment is “lazy” as stated above. These are used for medical leave coverage, hard to fill subspecialties, etc.

Do you research on a facility before signing and don’t be afraid to ask on a phone interview why the facility decided to utilize an agency.

Do’s:
• Work with a search firm to cast a wide net- you are busy and may not want to spend your time searching for opportunities
• Ask the recruiter if they are In-House, Retainer, or Contingency
• Be specific about location, practice size, teaching opportunities, etc
• Ask if the recruiter is from your preferred geographic location or has been to the practice
• Ask how your CV will be distributed and how your information will be presented.

Dont’s:
• Work with a search firm that is not a NAPR member (National Association of Physician Recruiters)
• Work with more than 2 search firms from the same market
• Send your CV to a recruiter representing an opportunity were you have a contact
• Send your CV to a recruiter without agreeing to the rules in an email
• Agree to paying a placement fee

I hope some of you fine the above useful. Best of luck to you all in your programs and your future search!

 

[PhysicianRec]

P.S. just focusing on the gasworks comment-it’s one of the most popular sites in Anesthesiology for Job posts - EVERYONE utilized that page including us not just agencies!!

 

[cognitus]

Yes, indirectly. The practice will be charged a finder's fee that comes out of your salary (or you will never be told about the job). There's no such thing as a free lunch. 😉

I would never use a recruiter, simply because I still haven't met anybody who's found a good job through one. And I think most of them are nothing more than incompetent/sleazy salesmen, looking for a quick buck.

I’m an attending now and I’m still not as bitter as you. Guess it just happens to some people...