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Recruiting Resources

Discussion in 'Anesthesiology' started by CCCMDMBA, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. CCCMDMBA

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    Besides Gaswork, does anybody know of a good resource for recruiting talent?

    My group has been disappointed with the results we get from Gaswork. We have a stable physician only group with an exclusive contract with a mid-sized but growing hospital, we are offering a partnership without buyin, and we are in a very desirable place to live, on the coast, with the best climate in the country. And, yet, not even a signing bonus will get us good applicants.

    The hospital paid for a recruiter's services, and all they could provide was a repackaging of the same desperate CVs we were getting from Gaswork.

    We thought we had a good relationship with the region's teaching programs, but we are beginning to wonder if we've somehow been blackballed.

    The longer our ads stay up on Gaswork, the more we fear we may be developing a stigma of a place no one wants to work.

    Do the students of studentdoctor care to tell us if they are using ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn, or Facebook to hunt for jobs?

    Thanks
     
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  3. Consigliere

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    Lower your standards.
     
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  4. Ezekiel2517

    Ezekiel2517 Anesthesiologist
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    Lol this isn't quantum physics. What's the answer to 99 out of 100 questions? Offer competitive compensation and you'll get competitive candidates.
     
  5. Man o War

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    What are the details/specifics of the job?
     
  6. NightNight

    NightNight ASA Member

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    Would definitely have to know more. Because it all sounds great on paper, so there must be something missing....
     
  7. Twiggidy

    Twiggidy ASA Member

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    There's something being missed here......

    You say you have this great job (and I'm not denying this) but are getting bad applicants. Define "same desperate CV".

    You don't have to give specifics, but honestly that may help someone on here who's been looking for a first or new job
     
  8. San Marzano

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    I’m in a desirable location and people take every job around here no matter the pay. There must be some kind of major red flag if you are truly in a desirable location and can’t get good applicants. It goes without saying that you’re not offering enough pay because people will live anywhere for a massive paycheck.
     
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  9. Twiggidy

    Twiggidy ASA Member

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    Some people will
     
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  10. AdmiralChz

    AdmiralChz ASA Member

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    This is a strange post - overall somewhat narcissistic talking up the job. It’s fine to think awesome of your group, and have work satisfaction and all that, but if you can’t attract quality candidates than something might be up.

    This is in the eye of the beholder - my preference for slow, 4 season midatlantic weather might not match someone who longs for the Florida sunshine, the Pacific Northwest mountainous outdoors or the Southern Cal earthquakes/taxes. Also, not all signing bonuses are created equal and many (including mine, which is fine) have some fine print on them.

    Well, recruiting season just wrapped up for this year’s class. Did you get any bites from your local programs, and do you have any recent graduates that can talk up the group to them directly?

    Depending on what you mean by “region” you might be restricting yourself too much. A few classes that are fellowship-heavy or more interested in scattering away would be to your detriment. Id expand you geographical reach and look at other programs even a state or two away. Maybe you have a recent graduate of such a program who could send out a feeler.

    Finally honesty look at your partnership track and compensation package - is it truly competitive?

    Just my two cents. Sometimes it can be tough to recruit to an “off-the-beaten-path” area as some have told around here. But persistence and some creativity with recruiting should bring you in some interest.
     
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  11. CCCMDMBA

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    Our compensation is well-above MGMA Western averages.

    Lifestyle magazines continually rank our county in the top 20 in the nation.

    No, we're not Santa Rosa. We're not Redding. We're not Eureka or Crescent City. We're not Bakersfield, Fresno, Stockton, or Sacramento. Those places are desperate.

    On the other hand, we know we aren't San Diego, LA, or the Bay Area, either. We pay more than $25/unit, which is all you'll get in those towns. We also are our own group, not an AMC (ahem, Inland Empire, Sacramento, San Jose).

    But in terms of comps, can anybody show me a private practice in Coastal California offering partnership, a signing bonus, and the chance to make $500,000 a year?

    I didn't think so.
     
  12. Twiggidy

    Twiggidy ASA Member

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    Especially it's California.....you can find yourself battling housing prices as well. No one wants an hour commute just so they can buy an overpriced home, especially when taking call is involved. That's a real talk struggle in California.
     
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  13. San Marzano

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    Let me see if I’m hearing this right: literally the only negative aspect of your group is that it’s not located in Golden Gate Park, but it’s still in a prime spot right down(up?) the coast?
     
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  14. spacegun

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    Central coast (e.g. Santa Barbara, SLO)? South coast (e.g. Orange County)?
     
  15. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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    What do you consider a "desperate" CV?
    What is an "outstanding" CV?
     
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  17. Consigliere

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    Yours

    Mine. Just kidding, just kidding....
     
  18. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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    I am telling you. I need to know these things. Maybe I am desperate but clueless about it.
     
  19. NICMAN

    NICMAN ASA member, MD PhD

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    $25/blended unit doesn't sound that great. I've seen from $35 to $55 when I was interviewing just one year ago here on the east coast (including an outstanding position at a place that just posted just before this post); especially if California and Uncle Sam eat 45% of that.
     
  20. Twiggidy

    Twiggidy ASA Member

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    that's what i was saying...had me looking at MY CV like....
    titus-1516309443.gif
     
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  21. sleepallday

    sleepallday ASA Member

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    Making $500k at $25/unit, is way to much work. Not worth it imo
     
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  22. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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    He or she said that they DON'T make that kind of money as the do in San Diego. They didn't say how much their units were paid.
     
  23. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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    Not what OP said. Attention to detail here. Part of our job.
     
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  24. IlDestriero

    IlDestriero Ether Man
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    He’s off the list! :)
    OP. Call me if you need a peds guy.
    I’ll live on the beach doing my own cases for 500k. My adult skills are rusty, but if I can keep a septic preemie going for the washout that should have been transferred here 2 days ago, I can push propofol for grannies cataract or endoscopy and drop some blocks.
    Are your surgeons hacks? If they have a bad rep, that might hurt your local recruiting. History of bad management? My buddy had a bad group President a while back and it took years after he was removed to get their reputation back. The other group in town still talks down about them because of decade+ old issues.


    --
    Il Destriero
     
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  25. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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  26. Psai

    Psai Account on Hold
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  27. okayplayer

    okayplayer Senior Member
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    I’m not any of these guys, but IMO a track record of changing jobs every few years (including not making partner at these groups), +/- poor residency program, +/- issues with boards.

    We interviewed a lady who, no joke, had been at 8-9 different groups in 15 years in our state or neighboring states. That’s concerning.
     
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  28. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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    I am asking. Is it kind of like when you go to Neimann Marcus and if you have to ask the price, then you don't belong?

    That's the thing about medicine. It can be very "classist" if that's the correct term. As in "poor residency programs". What's considered poor? I have never cared about big names or brands, and apparently that's detrimental. I hate the snootiness associated with big names. I have left two jobs in six years, because of weather and then too much work load. Made partner in one. But now working for myself and much happier. No board issues. I don't do hearts or sick peds.

    Guess I am "desperate". Screw it. There's always locums.

     
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  29. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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  30. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    I’ll try to reply as to what. Makes a desperate CV but I’m sure I will piss of some people. Please remember that I’m trying to do this off the cuff and in all actuality there is no hard and fast rules to a CV for a private practice group. The most important thing is “group fit” assuming they candidate has the basic skills to do the job.

    Instead of desperate I think of it as “Red Flags”. I look at how many jobs the candidate has had and how long they have remained at most jobs. Everyone is entitled to one or two short time jobs as long as they can explain it well. New grads don’t have a history. So they need a different vetting system. And to be honest I put very very little emphasis on pre med school jobs or history. It is so easy to “volunteer” for shot and put that on a CV. But if you play a professional or collegiate level sport then I am interested. That’s just me. Also, more than one fellowship is a red flag to me unless it comes with a great explaination. Gaps in work also don’t look good.

    So I think the CV just gets you in the door. It’s the interview that counts.

    But the OP wasn’t talking about CV’s. S/he was asking about their job. And to be honest, it sounds grossly under paid for the $/unit and for the presumed cost of living. Plus, comparing to places like Bakersfield is a red flag to me. Sounds like the OP needs an experienced anesthesiologist and that they should offer full partnership from the start in order to get one. An experienced anesthesiologist has paid their dues so there really is little reason to do a partnership track.
     
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  31. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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    Thanks.
    But he/she didn't say the unit value yet. Keeping us in suspense I guess.
    I know docs out West making 600 to 700k on $ 30 to 40 a unit. They work like dogs. Not worth it to me.
     
  32. Twiggidy

    Twiggidy ASA Member

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    It’s a legitimate question. Your CV says nothing about your skills as an anesthesiologist. I know plenty of IVY league grads with tons of research that stink at the job.
     
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  33. Twiggidy

    Twiggidy ASA Member

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    Ok that actually makes sense
     
  34. Twiggidy

    Twiggidy ASA Member

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    I agree with just about all of this and this was a very informative response.

    Where I may play devils advocate is the offer of immediate partnership. I understand why practices don’t do this because you don’t want a binding contract with someone who turns out to be an a-hole despite putting on a good show for an interview. It’s the same why people tell many of us that if we’re trying a new job in a new area do it as a locum first if possible so you can bail of things don’t work out.
     
  35. pjl

    pjl ASA Member

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    Of note, I am excessively quick to judge CVs and carry a lot of prejudice into interviews. This is a list of what I recall recently giving me a bad “gut feeling.”

    “Bad cvs”
    1 A new job more than every 3 years. Switching jobs at any time requires at least a cursory reason, but that is interview stuff.
    2 lack of ANY leadership role in a longer term job. Less important, but still not what we want. It suggests someone doing the bare minimum, which means the rest of us have to pull the admin weight.
    3 No experience in a part of anesthesia we do within past 5 years
    4 New grad from DO residency without something further like other advanced degree, fellowship at MD program, or some work experience
    5 Come from a lesser known program without recommendation from a personal contact.
    6 Bad word of mouth from program attending or known contact
    -We end up interviewing most who apply, with assumption that CVs are a poor indication of skills, however a poor review from anyone we know makes us skip people.
    -Sadly many give good reviews to crappy people and we don’t trust them anymore.
    -There are other personal contacts/friends who are discerning and I would almost hire sight unseen based on their recommendations and past success.
    7 Immediate disqualification for spelling and major grammatical errors. If your most professional, first impression, with no time limit lacks attention to detail, I worry about your ability to hone in on patient care details
    8 Format is unimportant most of the time, but a well put together CV is nice to see.

    That said, the CV is not important if we know someone, minimally important with known recommendations, and fairly important for unsolicited contacts. The phone discussion is far more important overall. Any single thing above can be overcome, but multiple are unlikely to be bothered with.

    We are a small group in BFE, with high comp and decent hours, for comparison purposes.

    Tangentially related, our recruiting issues are all related to poor lifestyle fit or location. Be honest about your groups downsides, and adjust them if needed/possible, otherwise you will struggle.
    Nearly immediate parity to partner is one thing, but an actual partner immediately would be a red flag to me, I like the reassurance that there is a trial period before I get a long term business partner. Don’t forget you are talking about 5-50 mil yearly revenue groups, basing ownership and equality on a single day interview is not smart. I’m happy to spend a year or two being assessed if it means I don’t get some lazy idiot making business decisions that significantly alter my future.

    Regarding recruiting tools, we hit personal contacts very hard. Residency programs are typically a good source too, but we have lower success than experienced people who know friends but want a change. Call or email everyone you know, visit friends at a conference.

    Gasworks, recruiters or online resources tend to provide the candidate equivalent of the jobs posted. Rare gems, but a lot of chaff.
     
    #33 pjl, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
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  36. rakotomazoto

    rakotomazoto ASA Member

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    So, you pretty much described my exact situation starting in July. Perhaps there are not many of these positions out there, but I found one, so they do exist. I agree that we are not getting the full story here. If it was that simple, the position would be filled.

    Although some jobs in those areas are only offering $25/unit (or less if they can pull a fast one over a naive newbie), I am personally also aware of multiple groups that pay more to new grads in LA, Orange County, and San Diego. No idea what they are offering in the Bay Area. My resident class has been interviewing throughout SoCal for the past several months so my data is pretty fresh. Either you are not telling us everything or for some reason, you have not been able to utilize the alumni networks of your partners. Californians tend to train and work local, many groups take advantage of this "California or Bust" mindset. What has been the response when members of your group reach out directly to colleagues at their old residency programs? I am sure there are lots of local connections. Have you guys been sending out those generic recruitment emails through the education office or has there been attempts at direct personal communication to get names of specific residents who might be interested?

    Going back to one of your original questions, all of my job interviews and offers were the result of direct communication through the alumni network, mostly for positions that were never publicly advertised anywhere. I looked at gaswork and went to a few local events hosted by recruiters (free dinners) near where I live, but compared to the word-of-mouth offers, that scene felt very corporate and predatory towards new grads so I never followed up with any of them.

    Feel free to PM me and we can talk details, I would be happy to tell you my 2 cents on what people around my program think of your region and specific group, if I know anything. I hope my post doesn't come across as condescending or antagonistic, it just honestly seems like there must be more to this story. Maybe the rest of it is better not laid out so openly for all of the internet to gawk at.

    Good luck filling the position, it must be frustrating to feel like you are hitting this wall.
     
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  37. Ezekiel2517

    Ezekiel2517 Anesthesiologist
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    You're confidence is misguided. While you may think highly of your group, clearly the majority of the top candidates you seek do not hold it in the same regard. Plenty of groups in the Bay Area, SD, LA, and OC offer the chance to make well over 500k. That's not much above 50% percentile MGMA for this region. There's not a single group in Norcal that pays as low as 25/unit. Just bc you're located on the coast doesn't make it desirable. Most people want to live in or near major metro areas and have the access to all the great things and amenities these places offer. Why on earth would a good candidate want to live in the middle of nowhere, even if it's on the coast, when they can make just as much money and most likely more in the major desirable metro areas of CA? You have misguided confidence.
     
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  38. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    Good point, maybe offer equal pay and work load but no voting rights for a year or two. But if you remember, I never opposed the partnership track. If some have spend a lot of time and effort building a practice then people shouldn’t be allowed to just walk in and reap the benefits.
    However, in the OP’s situation they may need to forget about this.
     
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  39. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    Well, you may have just described me. I’m not a major metro guy. Too much congestion. Takes too long to get out and do the th8ngs I like to do. Shopping and movie theaters are the last two things on my list of interests. Restaurants in the middle. Outdoor activities at the top. I don’t want to go to a gym ever. I want to go outside. Too many people many me crazy.
     
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  40. FFP

    FFP Grunt, cog, body, pompous ass, pissant
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    How does a "desperate" CV look?

    Your misconceptions will make you miss out on a lot of beaten good dogs who are just looking to find a good home. Be happy that you never had to deal with a crappy job/boss/employer. Some people may be good and reliable workers, but not good negotiators, so they get screwed again and again (especially in bad markets where it's take it or LEAVE).
     
    #38 FFP, Apr 25, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
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  41. FFP

    FFP Grunt, cog, body, pompous ass, pissant
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    Are you kidding me? Good luck eating sh!t for more than 3 years in the typical East Coast employed job. Plus have you never signed up for a job just to discover you've been lied to? Happens ALL THE TIME in the East. I've had 3 employers who have misrepresented things just to get me, including my current one. You either keep eating crap, or try to find somebody better. After a while, you learn that most are the same (beaten dog syndrome aka cynicism).

    It's almost like with car insurance companies giving you a great introductory rate, then raising rates on you, slowly but steadily.
    Same here. When you're a cog, nobody cares about your other talents.
    I probably would not hire 80% of the Big Name program residents I work with. (I consider myself average or worse, and still I run circles around them.) Good luck getting the other 20% (everybody wants those).
    Everybody pisses off some serious and detail-oriented attending like myself, unless he's a world class brown-noser (full of those in America). And those who are not detail-oriented are not even worth asking about their recommendations, unless you're interested in the social skills of the resident. Meaning that, overall, it's almost useless to rely on recommendations from residency programs, unless the person has worked a lot with the resident and can qualify, in detail, every quality and defect. Which basically means 1:1 coverage (almost inexistant anymore).
    Bingo! The way to go it's almost like the Mob: if you recommend me somebody and s/he screws up, you're out, too.
     
    #39 FFP, Apr 25, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  42. GravelRider

    GravelRider SDN Lifetime Donor
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    I couldn’t have said it any better myself. Job hopping is a way of life in some regions. If you are going to eat $hit, you might as well eat $hit for the most money. When the [email protected] factory across town raises salaries to compete with your current [email protected] factory, it’s time to get up and leave. Job hopping is usually a good sign in some regions...it means you have choices and haven’t committed any true “red flags.”
     
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  43. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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    @FFP. You keep things real.

    Sadly medicine (and I am sure other fields) are like the mob. It's all about connections. It's all still just a Good Ol' Boys club. God knows some of us don't do well in the good Ol' club because we would never be admitted in the first place.
    Well, thankfully the folks who took a chance on me wanted me to stay.

    @CCCMDMBA, are you looking for someone with Cardiac skills? I know a highly qualified individual who's looking for warmer climate. Her CV is very unlikely "desperate" and she fellowshiped at a "big name".
     
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  44. Consigliere

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    Chocomorsel - basically what everyone said except for the sports involvement; I don't care about that. FYI, just from my limited interactions on SDN, I'd hire you. That's difficult to convey through a CV however.
     
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  45. Southpaw

    Southpaw ASA Member

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    Geez. I didn’t notice much arrogance in the OP. I admit to not really understanding a desperate CV. However, the story certainly will unfold over an interview and review of references.

    I only took note that perhaps their package isn’t as good as they feel it is. Recruiting isn’t complex. For a given location the money and vacation need to be competitive. If it isn’t you’ll struggle to get good people. If you’re not in a great location, then it may take a while to get someone to be a good fit for your practice. In my opinion, recruiters offer little to nothing that a motivated practice can’t do on its own.
     
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  46. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    Choco, I’m not sure you give yourself enough credit. You seem to be a bit self deprecating. You come from a high volume program that offers a lot of experience. More than most programs can offer. You have been around the block and have some good experience in the job market.

    The good Ol’ boy system is the best we have in reality. We all call on our past contacts to vet an aspiring candidate. Other than that, we have no real world information on the applicant. It isn’t foolproof by any means. But it does offer another layer of security. It also means that we all need to behave and perform at our best at all times. You never know when someone will call a “friend” to check up on an applicant.
     
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  47. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    I agree. I also think gasworks is the wrong place to be looking. That seems to be the place for the desperate and ill-fated to go.
     
  48. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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    Guess I should give myself more credit. I think my training was good, but our program is not a well known program. And I had my issues in residency so if people go looking for a good word there, well you may not get it depending on who you talk to. Well, I have moved on, but it's something that I am sure gets me Xd out of some possible jobs.

    Whatever the case, I am moving to something different that will open other doors for me.
     
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  49. Southpaw

    Southpaw ASA Member

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    I would not hold your residency experience against you if you were forthright and honest. We all know the pluses and minuses of anesthesiology residency and how good, solid people don’t always get looked kindly upon by faculty.

    However, if you’ve had a work experience or two since then, or a fellowship, and people talk highly of you (never late, rarely if ever calls out sick last minute, everyone likes you and finds you easy to work with, you provide GREAT CARE to your patients, etc.) then there’s no reason to worry. It’s the people who consistently, everywhere they go, find the ‘rotten egg’ reputation following them, that practices will avoid.
     
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  50. SnapperRocks

    SnapperRocks ASA Member

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    Current CA2. Gasworks and even career fairs have confusing connotations to me. I am skeptical of adding in middle men looking to take a cut into any conversation especially when advice from all my attending's is that the best jobs are luck, timing, networking, and word of mouth.

    What are you looking for? What has gone wrong in your recruiting? People moving on to other jobs? Are these jobs local? Too slow? Too careless? Laziness? Lacking specific skillset? Not picking up desired skillset as expected on the job? Interpersonal issues with ancillary staff? Looking for too much hand holding? Overconfident?
     
  51. chocomorsel

    chocomorsel Senior Member
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    Residency was horrible, but PP has been good. I can honestly say that I have a good reputation in PP. Never had any problems there and love it compared to academics.

    Never was fired or let go or not made partner because I had issues. Would have stayed at my first little job had it not been an ice bucket in winter. Loved it there. West coast was awesome too in that it really taught me to move fast and grow bigger balls cuz we were all on our own. All in all, things have been good.

    Just want to get out of the OR for a while and improve my knowledge base and possibly get away from the ever so present toxic Surgeons. Yes, they aren't all jerks, but enough of them are and suck the life out of me.
     
  52. FFP

    FFP Grunt, cog, body, pompous ass, pissant
    Gold Donor Classifieds Approved

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    Not everybody has a membership in the Old Boys' Club.
     

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