Reflecting on one month of osteopathy

[UnoMas]

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I’m not anti-DO. I’ve never questioned the legitimacy of DO medical schools or the DO degree, nor have I ever criticized the quality of care that DO physicians provide. What I am is anti-osteopathy/OMM. I don’t think that outdated pseudoscience belongs in contemporary medical school curricula.

In this thread, I was just offering a perspective that I think isn’t often considered. Most people don’t reflect on how OMM and other aspects of the “DO difference” impact the character of the applicant pool, for better or for worse. It just adds another layer of nuance to the discussion, I think. I’m sorry if my comments upset you, through. Would you like me to try to cure your butthurt with an IT spread? 🙂

With your history of flaming in this subforum I don’t think your perspective is ‘refreshing.’ The vast majority of DO students don’t think too highly of OMM and it’s almost like every other thread on here. You add nothing to the discussion.

Butthurt? Lol I am just calling you out for what you doing. By all means carry on though, I dont have time to have a back and forth with a premed. Time trolling is time better spent studying or enjoying other aspects of life. That’s a tip for ya. Good luck in medicine, you’ll need it if this is how you carry yourself irl!

 

[thumbz]

If you cant understand the usefulness of some OMM you aren't very bright.

Look, I'm by no means a lover of OMM, and if they were dumb enough to put me in charge of COCA it would be a bloodbath (for new schools, cranial... probably Chapman's points).

But...

This guy/gal is absolutely, 100% without a doubt right. If you truly don't believe any OMM is worthwhile or helpful than you're either being purposefully obtuse or you're just not that bright. If you actually don't believe that OMM is ever helpful than you also by design don't believe in massage therapy, chiropractics (ok I'll concede this one) or a lot of what PT and OT do. Muscle energy is basically a fancy version of facilitated stretching - if people have tight muscles it's gonna help. "Bowstringing" techniques are different takes on massage. Counterstrain is muscle isolation and unloading to give it a chance to relax. From someone who often hurts themselves thanks to never warming up I have a colleague who does counterstrain and some muscle energy when I'm in the office and it always helps. HVLA - I dunno. You can actually feel when things are a little out of alignment - does realigning them help? Probably, but probably not? That one I'm 50/50 on - there seems to be some immediate relief but not long lasting.

Chapman's is a joke. Cranial is voodoo.

(Also - if you incorporate OMM into your clinic you WILL get a following and you WILL augment your income substantially, so there is that)

 

[MavFab]

Wow 13,000 per cycle with those stats? If true that means I’m dead wrong. It also means that almost half of the people who don’t get in MD could basically have their pick of DO schools. I guess you’re right then.

I wonder how many of these people are refusing to apply to DO schools because they think it is beneath them vs. poor advising and not knowing they exist?

 

[Osminog]

Wow 13,000 per cycle with those stats? If true that means I’m dead wrong. It also means that almost half of the people who don’t get in MD could basically have their pick of DO schools. I guess you’re right then.

I think I didn’t write it very clearly. Not per cycle. 13,000 for both cycles together (and including double-counts of the people within the 3.4+/510+ score range who applied and got rejected across the board both cycles). I think ~6,000 added applicants in this score range added to the DO pool each cycle would be enough to change the average stats by a lot.

 

[Kardio]

Look, I'm by no means a lover of OMM, and if they were dumb enough to put me in charge of COCA it would be a bloodbath (for new schools, cranial... probably Chapman's points).

But...

This guy/gal is absolutely, 100% without a doubt right. If you truly don't believe any OMM is worthwhile or helpful than you're either being purposefully obtuse or you're just not that bright. If you actually don't believe that OMM is ever helpful than you also by design don't believe in massage therapy, chiropractics (ok I'll concede this one) or a lot of what PT and OT do. Muscle energy is basically a fancy version of facilitated stretching - if people have tight muscles it's gonna help. "Bowstringing" techniques are different takes on massage. Counterstrain is muscle isolation and unloading to give it a chance to relax. From someone who often hurts themselves thanks to never warming up I have a colleague who does counterstrain and some muscle energy when I'm in the office and it always helps. HVLA - I dunno. You can actually feel when things are a little out of alignment - does realigning them help? Probably, but probably not? That one I'm 50/50 on - there seems to be some immediate relief but not long lasting.

Chapman's is a joke. Cranial is voodoo.

(Also - if you incorporate OMM into your clinic you WILL get a following and you WILL augment your income substantially, so there is that)

An issue I'm running into with this is separating the good from the bad. All techniques fall under the same banner of "OMM." Knowing that some if it is wrong, but still taught, makes it very difficult to trust all that I'm being taught and way easier to just learn what I need to pass the tests and move on with life.

I wonder how many of these people are refusing to apply to DO schools because they think it is beneath them vs. poor advising and not knowing they exist?

What it really makes me wonder is what those 'higher stat' but rejected people decide to do if they give up on USMD without trying for DO. Financially, it probably doesn't make sense in most cases.

 

[Mad Jack]

It is ****ing hilarious. I watched the movie back in the day and fell in love with it. The show delivers way more than the movie IMO.

The cameo from the vampires in the movie was priceless, and the show itself is a gem

 

[Fat_Albert]

Look, I'm by no means a lover of OMM, and if they were dumb enough to put me in charge of COCA it would be a bloodbath (for new schools, cranial... probably Chapman's points).

But...

This guy/gal is absolutely, 100% without a doubt right. If you truly don't believe any OMM is worthwhile or helpful than you're either being purposefully obtuse or you're just not that bright. If you actually don't believe that OMM is ever helpful than you also by design don't believe in massage therapy, chiropractics (ok I'll concede this one) or a lot of what PT and OT do. Muscle energy is basically a fancy version of facilitated stretching - if people have tight muscles it's gonna help. "Bowstringing" techniques are different takes on massage. Counterstrain is muscle isolation and unloading to give it a chance to relax. From someone who often hurts themselves thanks to never warming up I have a colleague who does counterstrain and some muscle energy when I'm in the office and it always helps. HVLA - I dunno. You can actually feel when things are a little out of alignment - does realigning them help? Probably, but probably not? That one I'm 50/50 on - there seems to be some immediate relief but not long lasting.

Chapman's is a joke. Cranial is voodoo.

(Also - if you incorporate OMM into your clinic you WILL get a following and you WILL augment your income substantially, so there is that)

I don't even consider that OMM. You're basically just saying massages and stretching works which most people already believes in

 

[thumbz]

I don't even consider that OMM. You're basically just saying massages and stretching works which most people already believes in

Well yeah, but that would be like saying you don't consider gravity science because everyone believes in gravity, but not everyone believes in science.

 

[MavFab]

What it really makes me wonder is what those 'higher stat' but rejected people decide to do if they give up on USMD without trying for DO. Financially, it probably doesn't make sense in most cases.
[/QUOTE]

Yea I wonder. Maybe learn to code, get an MBA or PhD. There aren't many good jobs for bio majors without other skills.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

The cameo from the vampires in the movie was priceless, and the show itself is a gem

Taika Waititi is a gem

 

[Kardio]

Yea I wonder. Maybe learn to code, get an MBA or PhD. There aren't many good jobs for bio majors without other skills.

In lifetime earnings, I’m very doubtful that an MBA or PhD will earn more than a strong (which they presumably would be) DO student who goes into Gas/Rads (or FM/IM/Peds tbh).

Completing either training pathway will allow you to practice medicine however you like. So if you want to be a physician, I don’t see why both degrees shouldn’t be on the table.

They’re either unaware of how similar the career trajectories could be, have a secret alternative career plan that I can’t think of, or value learning OMM / being a DO at a negative 6- or 7-figure lifetime earnings difference.

Not being facetious; genuinely curious what it could be.

 

[Fat_Albert]

Well yeah, but that would be like saying you don't consider gravity science because everyone believes in gravity, but not everyone believes in science.

Well I meant that it’s backed up by research. I don’t think I need to explain the benefits of Stretching & massages lol

 

[Kardio]

keep laughing with the stink of a jaded osteopathic medical student with the DO on your name forever

Simmer down

 

[calivianya]

What it really makes me wonder is what those 'higher stat' but rejected people decide to do if they give up on USMD without trying for DO. Financially, it probably doesn't make sense in most cases.

I have a very good friend who meets these criteria. Neither of us got in MD our first cycle (the same app cycle) - and I decided to simultaneously apply DO (added DO apps in November) and she didn’t.

She was teaching high school biology for a bit. She went and got a research master’s and now has a research gig in a cancer lab - paying, but not a lot. She’s applying MD/PhD this cycle with PhD as her backup. She doesn’t even want regular MD anymore because she doesn’t want to pay for it... and I can at least understand that part.

She thinks she’d have a better chance of getting into the powerhouse research labs if she got her MD or PhD than her DO... and maybe she’s right, but still. Even if she gets in MD/PhD this cycle, if we decide to go through the same residency after graduation, I’ll have six years on her. Six years of attending salary. My feelings aren’t too hurt.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

keep laughing with the stink of a jaded osteopathic medical student with the DO on your name forever

I couldn’t care less what initials are after my name. I’ll never be an osteopath. I’m going into a field where I’ll never have to think of it again.

OMM is a sham. Stretching and massage are not OMM. But by all means keep drinking the kool-aid.

 

[Goro]

I wonder how many of these people are refusing to apply to DO schools because they think it is beneath them vs. poor advising and not knowing they exist?

I'll bet it's a fair share, but we'll probably never know the true number.

And as some of you have surmised from the trolling going on (which I have already reported), self-hating DO students are a very real thing.

 

[Neopolymath]

I couldn’t care less what initials are after my name. I’ll never be an osteopath. I’m going into a field where I’ll never have to think of it again.

OMM is a sham. Stretching and massage are not OMM. But by all means keep drinking the kool-aid.

Even if OMM works (some does) my argument has always been that this is not something doctors should be doing. Leave it to the handful of other professions that would use this effectively everyday and for who it would be a better use of their time instead of a doctor's time.

Omm should be an elective course in which we learn about these things much like we learn about physical therapy and occupational therapy and other allied health fields that are important to understand as a physician so that we may adequately and appropriately direct care. OMM does not fall under the purview of a physician's job. It is a bad waste of resources for an attending to do it. And it is also a bad waste of resources for a medical student or trainee to do it and learn about it the way we do. Based on the academics at some DO schools the time would be better spent learning medicine.

 

[Neopolymath]

I'll bet it's a fair share, but we'll probably never know the true number.

And as some of you have surmised from the trolling going on (which I have already reported), self-hating DO students are a very real thing.

I don't hate myself as an individual but I sure as **** hate osteopathy and everything it stands for, particularly the criminal schools. I think there is a distinction and room for nuance there.

Edit: for posters like the person above any mention of negative aspects or critiquing means that you are self-hating and a bad person and should not have gone to do school to save a spot for a true believer. I liken that to when rabid sports fans will not allow for any discussion and debate about possible negative roster changes on their team. It is really funny that these people exist imo.

 

[Kardio]

I have a very good friend who meets these criteria. Neither of us got in MD our first cycle (the same app cycle) - and I decided to simultaneously apply DO (added DO apps in November) and she didn’t.

She was teaching high school biology for a bit. She went and got a research master’s and now has a research gig in a cancer lab - paying, but not a lot. She’s applying MD/PhD this cycle with PhD as her backup. She doesn’t even want regular MD anymore because she doesn’t want to pay for it... and I can at least understand that part.

She thinks she’d have a better chance of getting into the powerhouse research labs if she got her MD or PhD than her DO... and maybe she’s right, but still. Even if she gets in MD/PhD this cycle, if we decide to go through the same residency after graduation, I’ll have six years on her. Six years of attending salary. My feelings aren’t too hurt.

I assume the bolded is correct. Sounds like she wants to be a researcher / academic more than she wants to be a physician and sees MD/PhD as preferable to PhD alone.

From what I’ve heard, MD/PhDs may have an easier time than a PhD without an MD - so not unreasonable at first glance.

 

[MLNS]

It's been a long time since I visited the DO student forum and of course there's a new generation of d***bag frequent fliers who like to occasionally drop in to remind us how we are the 2nd class citizens of medicine. Nice job derailing the thread.

Why the f**** are we still talking about the MCAT and GPA? Take that **** back to the pre-med forums. 510, 515?? what the f*** kind of scale is that?

Talking about hypotheticals like converting DO schools to MD schools? What? Why? WTF? Don't you have better things to do with your free time? What are you trying to prove? What is the overarching theme here? DO schools have lower admission standards, that is a FACT, what brand new information would you like to discuss with the class?

Back to OP: Learn what you need to do well on tests, nod your head, get through the motions in OMM labs. Pass all 3 levels then purge. OMM points are easy points.

PSA to current DO students: Your education is what you make of it. Keep showing up, work hard, study hard and you WILL kick ass. You would think by this troll's logic, MD graduates from these high MCAT schools would make good residents/doctors but that's not the reality. Some of the worst residents I know are from GREAT MD schools, like 'I wouldn't let them order Tylenol without my supervision' kind of bad. It's embarrassing. Before you say I have a chip on my shoulder or I didn't do well on my tests etc. MCAT/Step1/Step2 was 35/250s/260s. Don't @ me

The worst resident in my residency went to an amazing med school

they are a total psycho that everyone hates working with and make the most bizarre adjustments when they take over patients

 

[musman9853]

In lifetime earnings, I’m very doubtful that an MBA or PhD will earn more than a strong (which they presumably would be) DO student who goes into Gas/Rads (or FM/IM/Peds tbh).

Completing either training pathway will allow you to practice medicine however you like. So if you want to be a physician, I don’t see why both degrees shouldn’t be on the table.

They’re either unaware of how similar the career trajectories could be, have a secret alternative career plan that I can’t think of, or value learning OMM / being a DO at a negative 6- or 7-figure lifetime earnings difference.

Not being facetious; genuinely curious what it could be.

yeah like my mcat was great, the only thing that held me back was my gpa was slightly low. I couldve spent a year and 30k improving my gpa and would have had a decent shot at an MD, but the 300+k opportunity cost and extra year/uncertainty is just not worth it

 

[DrRedstone]

I’m curious to know which ones you find useful

I regularly use counterstrain, BLT (yea, it's crazy until you actually see it working[anecdotal]), muscle energy, HVLA, MFR, and sometimes Still's Technique (usually exclusively for ribs). I've even used lymphatics on friends with URIs. Each technique is what you make of it. Sure, most of it is more advanced stretching, but that doesn't mean we don't get in that osteopathic flair(TM) while we do it.
The most important benefit of OMM is that hands on treatment builds rapport way faster than just "take this pill." But, please, if they need that pill still give it to them. OMM isn't magic.

edit: (And if I get into ophtho I'll never use it on a patient again xD)

 

[Cornfed101]

edit: (And if I get into ophtho I'll never use it on a patient again xD)

I worked with a DO ophthalmologist and he attracted the weirdest patients. Seriously like full moon status patients all the time haha

 

[Osminog]

we had a patient with sciatica today and I had a med student from an MD school rotating with me. Had to pull her aside and ask her if she believed in the piriformis conspiracy. Goddamn MD schools even teach their students about the piriformis muscle. Commie bastards. Personal I think the muscle is fake and they just sutured them onto our cadavers in anatomy lab. Don’t believe that BS. Piriformis doesn’t really exist it was made up by OMM faculty

Is your point that OMM has some legitimacy because there are OMM treatments that purportedly treat the piriformis muscle and the piriformis muscle is real? That’s like saying that reflexology has some legitimacy because hands and feet are real.

 

[Kardio]

Is your point that OMM has some legitimacy because there are OMM treatments that purportedly treat the piriformis muscle and the piriformis muscle is real? That’s like saying that reflexology has some legitimacy because hands and feet are real.

I’m 99% sure he’s trolling and you took the bait

 

[PapaGuava]

I know OMM always makes everyone’s head spin but please keep the comments professional and not target other members.

 

[El-Rami]

?? Aren't some MD programs average MCAT scores also near 505-507?

A state MD school could have an average MCAT of 509-511, for example. I've never heard of an MD school with 505 as an average unless it was something like Meharry, which caters to URM students (who may thus have lower scores due to low SES).

Strong and competitive DO schools tend to have 506-507 as an average. Honestly, that isn't much different from a state MD school.

With the standardization we see in medical school curriculum, I wouldn't be too caught up in the average stats of students because I have personally seen highly competent Caribbean students. Board pass rates aren't important either because it is largely student-driven. Even if the school has a weak curriculum, all you have to do is go to class, then pull out FA, Pathoma, Sketchy, etc., and study. If you heavily use those third-party resources there is no reason why your education would be inferior to someone else's.

 

[El-Rami]

I wonder how many of these people are refusing to apply to DO schools because they think it is beneath them vs. poor advising and not knowing they exist?

Advising can be an issue. My pre-med adviser was an allopathic physician, and he never discussed the possibility of students going to DO school. Everything was about going to US MD programs or the Caribbean. It was very much biased.

With that said, the advising as far as getting accepted into a local MD program was excellent, and there was a lot of insider data about "If I have X GPA and Y MCAT, what likelihood (%) do I have of getting into _____ school?" I don't believe it was based on MSAR data at all, but rather internally collected data.

Of course, it would have been nice for him to give information about osteopathic schools as well. It's certainly a far superior choice if you have to decide between it and the Caribbean, and match rates for US osteopathic medical students is still really good (cannot say the same about the Caribbean MD programs).

Younger physicians do not care at all whether or not you have an MD or DO after your name, and hospital badges typically just say "Physician" anyway. There aren't that many downsides to going to a DO school, although it can limit options if you want to pursue a highly competitive specialty.

As for people believing DO school is beneath them, who cares? People crap on primary care all the time because they don't make that much (relatively speaking). What value do these opinions have? I would say very little. Practically worthless.

 

[Goro]

A state MD school could have an average MCAT of 509-511, for example. I've never heard of an MD school with 505 as an average unless it was something like Meharry, which caters to URM students (who may thus have lower scores due to low SES).

Strong and competitive DO schools tend to have 506-507 as an average. Honestly, that isn't much different from a state MD school.

With the standardization we see in medical school curriculum, I wouldn't be too caught up in the average stats of students because I have personally seen highly competent Caribbean students. Board pass rates aren't important either because it is largely student-driven. Even if the school has a weak curriculum, all you have to do is go to class, then pull out FA, Pathoma, Sketchy, etc., and study. If you heavily use those third-party resources there is no reason why your education would be inferior to someone else's.

For what it's worth:

U AR: 507
U MO: KC
U MS: 504
Mercer: 505
LSU-S: 505
U KY: 507
U NM: 506
FSU: 507

The most important benefit of OMM is that hands on treatment builds rapport way faster than just "take this pill."

This! Do NOT underestimate the power of touch in the doctor-patient relationship.

 

[DrRedstone]

The most important benefit of OMM is that hands on treatment builds rapport way faster than just "take this pill."

This! Do NOT underestimate the power of touch in the doctor-patient relationship.

Quoted by Goro 😍

I think OMM may actually make DOs more resistant to NP incursion because it gives us a better backbone for "holistic" medicine than the "heart of a nurse." Actions speak louder than words, and HVLA can get pretty loud.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Quoted by Goro 😍

I think OMM may actually make DOs more resistant to NP incursion because it gives us a better backbone for "holistic" medicine than the "heart of a nurse." Actions speak louder than words, and HVLA can get pretty loud.

This only makes sense to me if you mean the population of patients specifically seeking OMM, which is very small.

People don’t go see NPs because they have the “heart of a nurse.” They do it because there are so many of them that it is far easier to get an appointment with an NP in a reasonable time frame than with an MD or DO.

 

[DrRedstone]

This only makes sense to me if you mean the population of patients specifically seeking OMM, which is very small.

People don’t go see NPs because they have the “heart of a nurse.” They do it because there are so many of them that it is far easier to get an appointment with an NP in a reasonable time frame than with an MD or DO.

Granted, I am only a medical student, but I have noticed that patients virtually never turn down an offer to do manipulations in the clinic setting. Afterwards, they are very grateful for the service. I would assume patients don't actively seek OMM because many of them don't realize it is a service DOs can offer. If a physician actually offers to do OMM (in light of an MSK complaint, I don't advocate for Cranial or Chapman's), I believe patients will return because they feel better cared for. It would be an interesting research question for any students looking for a clinical project.

 

[deleted610572]

Granted, I am only a medical student, but I have noticed that patients virtually never turn down an offer to do manipulations in the clinic setting. Afterwards, they are very grateful for the service. I would assume patients don't actively seek OMM because many of them don't realize it is a service DOs can offer. If a physician actually offers to do OMM (in light of an MSK complaint, I don't advocate for Cranial or Chapman's), I believe patients will return because they feel better cared for. It would be an interesting research question for any students looking for a clinical project.

I wouldn’t turned down a massage either.

On a more serious note, people can do OMM if they want such and ME and CS as long as they aren’t charging an exorbitant amount of money for it and are prescribing actual proven treatments on top. But I don’t think this “improves care” because OMM isn’t a standard of care. It just doing more things that don’t necessarily do anything.

 

[Neopolymath]

I wouldn’t turned down a massage either.

On a more serious note, people can do OMM if they want such and ME and CS as long as they aren’t charging an exorbitant amount of money for it and are prescribing actual proven treatments on top. But I don’t think this “improves care” because OMM isn’t a standard of care. It just doing more things that don’t necessarily do anything.

All OMM faculty at my school brag about how much it bills and that was the final nail in the coffin for me.

 

[deleted610572]

All OMM faculty at my school brag about how much it bills and that was the final nail in the coffin for me.

Exactly mine too. IMO it’s immoral to bill just to bill. Because many families have high deductibles and the pt ends up paying for the billing. If you can get an insurance to pay for it then that’s one thing. Other than that, refer them to PT

 

[Scrubb]

The word osteopathy makes me cringe every time - so glad I'm done with that ****. That's all.

 

[Allosteopath]

And now we have an update!

Our COVID free campus came to an abrupt end in the middle of finals week, fortunately all of our practicals were done by this point. I think most students were pretty stressed given that our final day of exams was still in a state of limbo with less than 24 hours to go (If I remember correctly, its been a blur.)

Regardless, our schools administration was able to arrange an alternative location for testing, requiring n95 usage while testing in addition to being seated at one per table, spread out throughout a convention facility. I really do applaud that our school was able to save our weekend before our next block started, because I could only envision how stressful trying to keep up with new material as well as old material would be if they rescheduled.

Anatomy was tough enough, although I am in good position if I just keep working at it, and overall I did fairly well on my exams. However, starting a new block, that was rough. It very much like I was just thrown back to square one, that all the work that I did until this point feels exceedingly irrelevant. Although, it may just be that I'm still to early in my medical education for all the connections to start uncovering themselves. In OMM news, I learned muscle energy this week, at least it can be fun trying to keep the little rules straight in your head so that what you think you might feel matches up with the rules it should abide by. (The disheartening part is when you realize it didn't and your senses are not to be trusted.)

Lastly, I think my mind has been Anki-fied, because every time I write a sentence I start thinking about "What should I cloze-delete?"