Reflecting on one month of osteopathy

[Allosteopath]

I hope everyone's year is going well so far, my year certainly has, and I am more than happy with my grades in school so far. The classes have been interesting, fascinating, and truly a mountain of information that I certainly anticipated but would not have been able to comprehend until being thrown into the furnace. Diamonds are made under pressure, after all.

I am happy with my school so far and the faculty genuinely seem to care for student success and have made themselves extraordinarily available in many ways which is admirable given COVID-times. I also can commend them on how they've handled COVID (0 cases on campus) thus far while still maintaining academic integrity and our ability to have access to anatomy labs.

Our first finals week is around the corner, and my only real worry is anatomy, its tough, but I think I've got a grasp on a good number of things, and while I don't necessarily think I'll have mastered everything by the exam, I do think I'll be in a position to put up a good fight, and maybe improve a few things over the weekend.

Overall, I am happy in a DO school, and it certainly does provide you with a nice distraction from the scary courses. However, with that being said, is it a common trend across DO schools to lecture osteopathy in a way that seems to make me feel like I'm being indoctrinated into a cult? Or is it too late?

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[deleted480308]

I hope everyone's year is going well so far, my year certainly has, and I am more than happy with my grades in school so far. The classes have been interesting, fascinating, and truly a mountain of information that I certainly anticipated but would not have been able to comprehend until being thrown into the furnace. Diamonds are made under pressure, after all.

I am happy with my school so far and the faculty genuinely seem to care for student success and have made themselves extraordinarily available in many ways which is admirable given COVID-times. I also can commend them on how they've handled COVID (0 cases on campus) thus far while still maintaining academic integrity and our ability to have access to anatomy labs.

Our first finals week is around the corner, and my only real worry is anatomy, its tough, but I think I've got a grasp on a good number of things, and while I don't necessarily think I'll have mastered everything by the exam, I do think I'll be in a position to put up a good fight, and maybe improve a few things over the weekend.

Overall, I am happy in a DO school, and it certainly does provide you with a nice distraction from the scary courses. However, with that being said, is it a common trend across DO schools to lecture osteopathy in a way that seems to make me feel like I'm being indoctrinated into a cult? Or is it too late?

You only have to be in the cult until you pass comlex 3.

 

[Cornfed101]

DO schools to lecture osteopathy in a way that seems to make me feel like I'm being indoctrinated into a cult? Or is it too late?

I’m 2 months in and yeah it’s weird sometimes. Not sure why everything has to have a different name. Innominates? Where did you come up with that?

but in all seriousness, we have to find a dysfunction for our first SP next week and it’s a derm CC... “so I see you have a rash, and some pelvis dysfunction!”

 

[deleted1005514]

I’m 2 months in and yeah it’s weird sometimes. Not sure why everything has to have a different name. Innominates? Where did you come up with that?

but in all seriousness, we have to find a dysfunction for our first SP next week and it’s a derm CC... “so I see you have a rash, and some pelvis dysfunction!”

Lymphatic congestion? (Since it’s derm) Treat with pedal pump!!

 

[popopopop]

I'm happy you're enjoying yourself as did I, but the suck comes later when you're taking double boards and applying for residency.

 

[thumbz]

I'm happy you're enjoying yourself as did I, but the suck comes later when you're taking double boards and applying for residency.

Ehh the COMLEX isn't so bad... here's a sample question:

A 28 year old feamale comes to you're clinic complaining of abdominal swelling and cramps worsaning over the last 8 months. She also had morning nausea for several months but it has not occured for the last 2 months. On exam, you see a well appearing female with a distended abdomen. On palpation, you can percieve a kicking sensation over areas you just finished palpating. Which of the following is most likely to give you a diagnosis?

A) CT abdoemn with contrast
B) A palpable chapman's point 2 fingers above the R inferior pubic symphysis
C) An X-ray flatplate of the abdomen
D) An exploratory laparotamy

In the above question the answer is clearly B - this patient is presenting with pregnancy and by palpating the Chapman's point that corresponds with the uterus you can make the diagnosis. Oh, and the spelling mistakes are intentional - you'll absolutely see them on the real deal.

I do have to give it to the AOA - at least by the time I got to the AOBIM they had cleaned it up a little and dropped ALL the osteopathic stuff, but it was still a weird test. It was 2 blocks of 200ish questions with a single break in the middle.

 

[popopopop]

Yeah, I thought comlex was pretty straight forward and much easier than step. It was the scheduling and extra money. Sitting through anything for 8 hours is tough.

 

[Mass Effect]

I hope everyone's year is going well so far, my year certainly has, and I am more than happy with my grades in school so far. The classes have been interesting, fascinating, and truly a mountain of information that I certainly anticipated but would not have been able to comprehend until being thrown into the furnace. Diamonds are made under pressure, after all.

I am happy with my school so far and the faculty genuinely seem to care for student success and have made themselves extraordinarily available in many ways which is admirable given COVID-times. I also can commend them on how they've handled COVID (0 cases on campus) thus far while still maintaining academic integrity and our ability to have access to anatomy labs.

Our first finals week is around the corner, and my only real worry is anatomy, its tough, but I think I've got a grasp on a good number of things, and while I don't necessarily think I'll have mastered everything by the exam, I do think I'll be in a position to put up a good fight, and maybe improve a few things over the weekend.

Overall, I am happy in a DO school, and it certainly does provide you with a nice distraction from the scary courses. However, with that being said, is it a common trend across DO schools to lecture osteopathy in a way that seems to make me feel like I'm being indoctrinated into a cult? Or is it too late?

Are they calling it osteopathy now? A kid in my class called it that and our lecturer immediately corrected him with a rant about it being osteopathic medicine.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I’m 2 months in and yeah it’s weird sometimes. Not sure why everything has to have a different name. Innominates? Where did you come up with that?

but in all seriousness, we have to find a dysfunction for our first SP next week and it’s a derm CC... “so I see you have a rash, and some pelvis dysfunction!”

The innominates were called so because it was considered socially inappropriate to talk about that general part of the body.

But yeah, it’s dumb AF. It’s also dumb that the exams tend to rely on using esoteric names and strange phrasing to make questions difficult.

 

[Cornfed101]

Lymphatic congestion? (Since it’s derm) Treat with pedal pump!!

we haven’t learned that yet!

 

[deleted1005514]

we haven’t learned that yet!

Oh no! We did that our second week. I have nothing else for you, lol.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Ok buddy, you say that about OS now. Just wait until you get to the real crazy stuff. Chapman's points: aka, something you palpate on a rib for some sinus disorder. Did I mention feeling some random posterior transverse processes that's supposed to magically heal back pain????

 

[Osminog]

In a way, many DO students should be grateful for OMM. Had DO schools abandoned OMM and somehow gained LCME accreditation to be MD-granting institutions, many current DO students’ academic credentials wouldn’t have been strong enough to gain admission. Osteopathy serves as a strong repellent against high-achieving applicants, creating opportunities for students who screwed up in their undergrad classes and/or MCAT prep.

Case in point: The average MCAT at Nova’s brand new MD program is 511. The average MCAT at Nova’s more established DO program is 505. That’s the power of osteopathy at work.

 

[scoopdaboop]

In a way, many DO students should be grateful for OMM. Had DO schools abandoned OMM and somehow gained LCME accreditation to be MD-granting institutions, many current DO students’ academic credentials wouldn’t have been strong enough to gain admission. Osteopathy serves as a strong repellent against high-achieving applicants, creating opportunities for students who screwed up in their undergrad classes and/or MCAT prep.

Case in point: The average MCAT at Nova’s brand new MD program is 511. The average MCAT at Nova’s more established DO program is 505. That’s the power of osteopathy at work.

?? Aren't some MD programs average MCAT scores also near 505-507? The good + bad thing about DO schools is that as a student, you have opportunity to be physician without needing a school to be affiliated to a hospital which is much harder to come by. The bad thing obviously is that... you have no hospital so your rotations CAN suck. And no, if DO schools cancel all OMM from curriculum, or minimize what you learn by 50 percent (completely remove 1/2 of everything from the curriculum), I don't see how anything changes if the powers that give accreditation still allow it. What needs to happen is the current generation of students/ recent grads, should strive to AND MUST get in positions of power so they can slowly and surely remove OMM from curriculum, so in ~ 20-50 years, the OMM you learn is stuff that actually has merit. It's sort of like old hippie congressman who believe in jesus too much to drive their political decisions... need to wait so they are gone.

 

[drcardi]

Like you I have no issues with being in Do school and I’m enjoying it (for now) . I did honestly think OMM was pretty fascinating when I first heard about it, but now as I’m actually learning it I think it’s huge pile of nonsense . I never know what I’m doing in opp and just have been getting by by pretending I can notice or feel TART findings so needless to say I cannot wait until I take Comlex 3 (and hopefully pass) and be done with it for good .

 

[scoopdaboop]

Like you I have no issues with being in Do school and I’m enjoying it (for now) . I did honestly think OMM was pretty fascinating when I first heard about it, but now as I’m actually learning it I think it’s huge pile of nonsense . I never know what I’m doing in opp and just have been getting by by pretending I can notice or feel TART findings so needless to say I cannot wait until I take Comlex 3 (and hopefully pass) and be done with it for good .

Nah, tart is pretty reasonable. I mean, it's obvious when you feel hypertonicity. It's basically typical MSK physical exam. ROM is done by everyone for a typical extremity etc. Also, I have felt some decent counterstrain occuring, but I still am skeptical to what the therapeutic potential is when you do a counterstrain and feel what you should feel... I'm assuming it's basically 0.

 

[Goro]

?? Aren't some MD programs average MCAT scores also near 505-507? The good + bad thing about DO schools is that as a student, you have opportunity to be physician without needing a school to be affiliated to a hospital which is much harder to come by. The bad thing obviously is that... you have no hospital so your rotations CAN suck. And no, if DO schools cancel all OMM from curriculum, or minimize what you learn by 50 percent (completely remove 1/2 of everything from the curriculum), I don't see how anything changes if the powers that give accreditation still allow it. What needs to happen is the current generation of students/ recent grads, should strive to AND MUST get in positions of power so they can slowly and surely remove OMM from curriculum, so in ~ 20-50 years, the OMM you learn is stuff that actually has merit. It's sort of like old hippie congressman who believe in jesus too much to drive their political decisions... need to wait so they are gone.

This is correct. My school and a decent number of others have stats that are at or even surpass the stats of some MD schools, especially those in the south and midwestern states.

The bolded is the only thing that will save the profession from itself. You have to, have to, have to get the True Believers out of power.

 

[Goro]

I hope everyone's year is going well so far, my year certainly has, and I am more than happy with my grades in school so far. The classes have been interesting, fascinating, and truly a mountain of information that I certainly anticipated but would not have been able to comprehend until being thrown into the furnace. Diamonds are made under pressure, after all.

I am happy with my school so far and the faculty genuinely seem to care for student success and have made themselves extraordinarily available in many ways which is admirable given COVID-times. I also can commend them on how they've handled COVID (0 cases on campus) thus far while still maintaining academic integrity and our ability to have access to anatomy labs.

Our first finals week is around the corner, and my only real worry is anatomy, its tough, but I think I've got a grasp on a good number of things, and while I don't necessarily think I'll have mastered everything by the exam, I do think I'll be in a position to put up a good fight, and maybe improve a few things over the weekend.

Overall, I am happy in a DO school, and it certainly does provide you with a nice distraction from the scary courses. However, with that being said, is it a common trend across DO schools to lecture osteopathy in a way that seems to make me feel like I'm being indoctrinated into a cult? Or is it too late?

The people who teach OMM/OMT are definitely True Believers. That is to say, Osteopathy is a belief system with them. Not all are like that, at least at my school.

To be blunt, OMM/OMT and COMLEX are taxes on your screwing up your GPAs and/or MCAT scores. You still get to be a doctor.

So, just keep an open mind, suspend your disbelief, and try to learn something useful. And to quote Queen Victoria, "Just close your eyes and think of England".

 

[Osminog]

?? Aren't some MD programs average MCAT scores also near 505-507? The good + bad thing about DO schools is that as a student, you have opportunity to be physician without needing a school to be affiliated to a hospital which is much harder to come by. The bad thing obviously is that... you have no hospital so your rotations CAN suck. And no, if DO schools cancel all OMM from curriculum, or minimize what you learn by 50 percent (completely remove 1/2 of everything from the curriculum), I don't see how anything changes if the powers that give accreditation still allow it. What needs to happen is the current generation of students/ recent grads, should strive to AND MUST get in positions of power so they can slowly and surely remove OMM from curriculum, so in ~ 20-50 years, the OMM you learn is stuff that actually has merit. It's sort of like old hippie congressman who believe in jesus too much to drive their political decisions... need to wait so they are gone.

The MD schools with MCAT averages that are comparable to those of many DO schools are generally Puerto Rican schools (Spanish native speakers), state schools with heavy in-state biases, and HBCUs.

There are some DO schools that have MCAT averages similar to those of typical MD schools. The two that come to mind are Western-Pomona (510 for c/o ‘24) and Touro-CA (508 for c/o ‘22... latest data they posted). I think location has a lot to do with these cases. The competition in California for medical school admission is a bit nuts. I’m sure these schools’ averages would be even higher if they were MD schools.

The reason I brought up Nova is that it’s a case in which we can compare apples to apples—same location, same institution, same tuition, just different degrees and curricula. The “DO difference” amounted to a six-point disparity in MCAT performance between Nova’s MD students and DO students.

 

[musman9853]

You only have to be in the cult until you pass comlex 3.

flinging forth the banner of osteopathy intensifies

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

Remember that OMM faculty are usually a bunch of try hards they likely did some rural NMM residency and never learned real medicine

 

[Neopolymath]

In a way, many DO students should be grateful for OMM. Had DO schools abandoned OMM and somehow gained LCME accreditation to be MD-granting institutions, many current DO students’ academic credentials wouldn’t have been strong enough to gain admission. Osteopathy serves as a strong repellent against high-achieving applicants, creating opportunities for students who screwed up in their undergrad classes and/or MCAT prep.

Case in point: The average MCAT at Nova’s brand new MD program is 511. The average MCAT at Nova’s more established DO program is 505. That’s the power of osteopathy at work.

I understand your premise and laughingly agree in its irony. That said, this is faulty logic. If all DO schools turned into MD schools overnight then the stats of matriculating students as a group of all US med students would not suddenly change. Supply and demand dictate that to be true unless you know of some secret enclave of MD caliber premeds that are in a suspended state waiting for this opportunity lol. You think suddenly the schools are going to raise their expected stats to the point that their classes don't fill? Stats decrease as the applicant pool gets bigger and as the better applicants go to the better schools. When seats open up, that decreases competition. Do you believe that a bunch of MD caliber students are just going to come out of the woodwork that we haven't seen before? Who is filling these seats in your hypothetical scenario in which the DO students who fill these seats are no longer able to?

The bottom line is that if all DO schools became MD schools, the worst ones would be filling with less competitive applicants just like any other type of schooling.

 

[MavFab]

I understand your premise and laughingly agree in its irony. That said, this is faulty logic. If all DO schools turned into MD schools overnight then the stats of matriculating students as a group of all US med students would not suddenly change. Supply and demand dictate that to be true unless you know of some secret enclave of MD caliber premeds that are in a suspended state waiting for this opportunity lol. You think suddenly the schools are going to raise their expected stats to the point that their classes don't fill? Stats decrease as the applicant pool gets bigger and as the better applicants go to the better schools. When seats open up, that decreases competition. Do you believe that a bunch of MD caliber students are just going to come out of the woodwork that we haven't seen before? Who is filling these seats in your hypothetical scenario in which the DO students who fill these seats are no longer able to?

The bottom line is that if all DO schools became MD schools, the worst ones would be filling with less competitive applicants just like any other type of schooling.

I agree with this and want to add that DO school class sizes are much larger than MD. I bet if you eliminated the bottom half of DO classes you would see numbers a lot closer to MD averages. When you're trying to fill a class of 400 students there are going to be some weak ones pulling the average down.

 

[Neopolymath]

I agree with this and want to add that DO school class sizes are much larger than MD. I bet if you eliminated the bottom half of DO classes you would see numbers a lot closer to MD averages. When you're trying to fill a class of 400 students there are going to be some weak ones pulling the average down.

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's a silly statement IMO because if we took all the law students in America and made the bottom half of them into JOD instead of JD it wouldn't suddenly change the overall stats of all law students in America lol.

 

[FutureInternist]

Yeah, I thought comlex was pretty straight forward and much easier than step. It was the scheduling and extra money. Sitting through anything for 8 hours is tough.

I HATED the COMLEX.... so many “Guess what we are thinking Qs”.
With USMLE, at least they grab you by the collar and lead you down the path to the right answer.

Qs I missed on COMLEX were due to vagueness of Qs
Qs I missed USMLE were due to me being a dumb-ass

 

[Cornfed101]

I HATED the COMLEX.... so many “Guess what we are thinking Qs”.
With USMLE, at least they grab you by the collar and lead you down the path to the right answer.

Qs I missed on COMLEX were due to vagueness of Qs
Qs I missed USMLE were due to being being a dumb-ass

yeah I’m not looking forward to that. I wish they would just let me pay the test fee NOT to take the test. Just a bribe for a pass

 

[Neopolymath]

yeah I’m not looking forward to that. I wish they would just let me pay the test fee NOT to take the test. Just a bribe for a pass

This is how I feel about PE. Just let me pay double to not play your dumb game.

 

[genessis42]

There does seem to be a big interest in maintaining “DO identity” after the merger happened. But I think the orgs like NBOME and COCA will remain pretty adamant on it

 

[Osminog]

Do you believe that a bunch of MD caliber students are just going to come out of the woodwork that we haven't seen before? Who is filling these seats in your hypothetical scenario in which the DO students who fill these seats are no longer able to?

The bottom line is that if all DO schools became MD schools, the worst ones would be filling with less competitive applicants just like any other type of schooling.

By this logic, each time a new MD school opens, its stats would be low. However, we don’t see that at all. The inaugural class at California Northstate had a 511 MCAT average, as did that of Nova’s new MD program. Quinnipiac (Netter)’s has consistently had an average MCAT over 510 since its opening in 2013. Where did these high-stat students come from, if these schools didn’t exist before? Who filled these seats? What a mystery!

You seem to be forgetting that large numbers of perfectly qualified MD applicants with solid stats don’t get any acceptances during any given cycle, and that many opt to either reapply MD or give up. For example: a quarter of applicants with 510-513 MCATs and 3.8+ GPAs don’t get any MD acceptances, as well as a quarter of people with 514-517 MCATs and 3.6-3.8 GPAs. Believe it or not, there are thousands of high-stats students each cycle who would rather reapply MD or switch career paths than consider DO... and if the DO schools turned into MD schools, you can bet your bottom dollar that these applicants would fill those schools’ seats in a heartbeat—just as they’ve been filling California Northstate, Nova MD, Netter, etc.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Ehh the COMLEX isn't so bad... here's a sample question:

A 28 year old feamale comes to you're clinic complaining of abdominal swelling and cramps worsaning over the last 8 months. She also had morning nausea for several months but it has not occured for the last 2 months. On exam, you see a well appearing female with a distended abdomen. On palpation, you can percieve a kicking sensation over areas you just finished palpating. Which of the following is most likely to give you a diagnosis?

A) CT abdoemn with contrast
B) A palpable chapman's point 2 fingers above the R inferior pubic symphysis
C) An X-ray flatplate of the abdomen
D) An exploratory laparotamy

In the above question the answer is clearly B - this patient is presenting with pregnancy and by palpating the Chapman's point that corresponds with the uterus you can make the diagnosis. Oh, and the spelling mistakes are intentional - you'll absolutely see them on the real deal.

I do have to give it to the AOA - at least by the time I got to the AOBIM they had cleaned it up a little and dropped ALL the osteopathic stuff, but it was still a weird test. It was 2 blocks of 200ish questions with a single break in the middle.

I HATED the COMLEX.... so many “Guess what we are thinking Qs”.
With USMLE, at least they grab you by the collar and lead you down the path to the right answer.

Qs I missed on COMLEX were due to vagueness of Qs
Qs I missed USMLE were due to being being a dumb-ass

This is a better example of a COMLEX question:

35 yo female presents to your clinic with textbook diabetes. Here are some basic labs and irrelevant OMM findings. Treating this patient most closely aligns with which ethical principle?

Answers:
A bunch of Latin words you’ve never heard of before.

 

[Neopolymath]

By this logic, each time a new MD school opens, its stats would be low. However, we don’t see that at all. The inaugural class at California Northstate had a 511 MCAT average, as did that of Nova’s new MD program. Quinnipiac (Netter)’s has consistently had an average MCAT over 510 since its opening in 2013. Where did these high-stat students come from, if these schools didn’t exist before? Who filled these seats? What a mystery!

You seem to be forgetting that large numbers of perfectly qualified MD applicants with solid stats don’t get any acceptances during any given cycle, and that many opt to either reapply MD or give up. For example: a quarter of applicants with 510-513 MCATs and 3.8+ GPAs don’t get any MD acceptances, as well as a quarter of people with 514-517 MCATs and 3.6-3.8 GPAs. Believe it or not, there are thousands of high-stats students each cycle who would rather reapply MD or switch career paths than consider DO... and if the DO schools turned into MD schools, you can bet your bottom dollar that these applicants would fill those schools’ seats in a heartbeat—just as they’ve been filling California Northstate, Nova MD, Netter, etc.

These days those students are throwing apps at DO schools. Maybe the first year they apply MD only (as they should.) I was one of them with the stats to do that myself. I contend that there are more seats than qualified applicants overall for all US schools and this will only become more apparent as medicine becomes a worse and worse career unfortunately. We agree that a portion of DO school students would be rejected if your group of reapplicants went to these hypoethical DO turned MD schools but I don't think it would be thousands. You have to consider that premeds have terrible advising and are terrible at applying to the correct number of places.

 

[Ho0v-man]

By this logic, each time a new MD school opens, its stats would be low. However, we don’t see that at all. The inaugural class at California Northstate had a 511 MCAT average, as did that of Nova’s new MD program. Quinnipiac (Netter)’s has consistently had an average MCAT over 510 since its opening in 2013. Where did these high-stat students come from, if these schools didn’t exist before? Who filled these seats? What a mystery!

You seem to be forgetting that large numbers of perfectly qualified MD applicants with solid stats don’t get any acceptances during any given cycle, and that many opt to either reapply MD or give up. For example: a quarter of applicants with 510-513 MCATs and 3.8+ GPAs don’t get any MD acceptances, as well as a quarter of people with 514-517 MCATs and 3.6-3.8 GPAs. Believe it or not, there are thousands of high-stats students each cycle who would rather reapply MD or switch career paths than consider DO... and if the DO schools turned into MD schools, you can bet your bottom dollar that these applicants would fill those schools’ seats in a heartbeat—just as they’ve been filling California Northstate, Nova MD, Netter, etc.

There are people who apply MD with borderline stats who don’t get in. Either bc they chose not to go DO or just didn’t know it existed. But it seems highly unlikely there’s enough of them to fill up the 7,000+ DO spots. I’m of course open to changing my tune with some numbers if you have access to it. How many people does a quarter of each of those ranges actually amount to? A quarter of all the applicants to MD that didn’t get accepted is only about 8,000. The amount of applicants that meet the criteria you cited above is surely even much lower, no?

I do agree average stats would tick up a bit though.

 

[Kardio]

@Steve_Zissou my man, baller profile picture! Can’t wait for season 3.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

@Steve_Zissou my man, baller profile picture! Can’t wait for season 3.

Did they already announce it?

I thought about changing my handle too but I think I have too many posts in another part of the forum that people already associate with this name, so I don’t think I will.

 

[Kardio]

Did they already announce it?

Per Wiki, they’re planning on a 3rd season. No release date yet.

 

[Neopolymath]

Per Wiki, they’re planning on a 3rd season. No release date yet.

Unlike vampires, vampire shows sometimes die.

 

[FutureInternist]

Unlike vampires, vampire shows sometimes die.

Don’t leave us hanging... name of the show?

 

[Kardio]

Don’t leave us hanging... name of the show?

What we do in the Shadows

It’s a ‘reality show’ on Vampires who live in Staten Island.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

What we do in the Shadows

It’s a ‘reality show’ on Vampires who live in Staten Island.

It is ****ing hilarious. I watched the movie back in the day and fell in love with it. The show delivers way more than the movie IMO.

 

[Goro]

These days those students are throwing apps at DO schools. Maybe the first year they apply MD only (as they should.) I was one of them with the stats to do that myself. I contend that there are more seats than qualified applicants overall for all US schools and this will only become more apparent as medicine becomes a worse and worse career unfortunately. We agree that a portion of DO school students would be rejected if your group of reapplicants went to these hypoethical DO turned MD schools but I don't think it would be thousands. You have to consider that premeds have terrible advising and are terrible at applying to the correct number of places.

Indeed. My school has gotten a fair number of people who are MD caliber, and even have turned down and do schools just because they want to stay closer to home. In addition we're now seeing applicants come from the ivies

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

By this logic, each time a new MD school opens, its stats would be low. However, we don’t see that at all. The inaugural class at California Northstate had a 511 MCAT average, as did that of Nova’s new MD program. Quinnipiac (Netter)’s has consistently had an average MCAT over 510 since its opening in 2013. Where did these high-stat students come from, if these schools didn’t exist before? Who filled these seats? What a mystery!

You seem to be forgetting that large numbers of perfectly qualified MD applicants with solid stats don’t get any acceptances during any given cycle, and that many opt to either reapply MD or give up. For example: a quarter of applicants with 510-513 MCATs and 3.8+ GPAs don’t get any MD acceptances, as well as a quarter of people with 514-517 MCATs and 3.6-3.8 GPAs. Believe it or not, there are thousands of high-stats students each cycle who would rather reapply MD or switch career paths than consider DO... and if the DO schools turned into MD schools, you can bet your bottom dollar that these applicants would fill those schools’ seats in a heartbeat—just as they’ve been filling California Northstate, Nova MD, Netter, etc.

You know you’re in the med student threads, right? Like the “DO medical student” threads on SDN?!

Do you not think we went to undergrad with some of these ****s? Look you can’t spout off stupid garbage like this and not look like a complete tool. Your reasoning is completely cyclical and it’s completely forced. You always make some half-backed argument in these forms just to get a word in that DO=s***....

We get it bro, you don’t like DO schools. Get that stuff out, go cry in your pillow and scream at the ghost of AT Still. Get your MD tears flowing because I’ll be practicing next to you making the same paycheck and that’s going to suck for you.

 

[Osminog]

You know you’re in the med student threads, right? Like the “DO medical student” threads on SDN?!

Do you not think we went to undergrad with some of these ****s? Look you can’t spout off stupid garbage like this and not look like a complete tool. Your reasoning is completely cyclical and it’s completely forced. You always make some half-backed argument in these forms just to get a word in that DO=s***....

We get it bro, you don’t like DO schools. Get that stuff out, go cry in your pillow and scream at the ghost of AT Still. Get your MD tears flowing because I’ll be practicing next to you making the same paycheck and that’s going to suck for you.

A lot of medical school applicants care about the prestige of their title, and many have grand ambitions when it comes to specialty and residency quality. On top of that, many rightfully view OMM as pseudoscientific alternative medicine, and have zero interest in learning it. To my knowledge, no official data have been collected on this matter, but I personally know multiple competitive MD applicants who’ve explicitly told me that they would never consider applying DO, even if they were rejected across the board at MD programs. Given the attitudes and personality traits of many high-achieving pre-meds, I have a very hard time believing that this sentiment—as shallow or ill-founded as it might be—is a rare one among MD applicants.

I do think that osteopathy has no place at any modern-day medical institution, and I also think it’d be great if DO and MD degrees completely merged one day... but let’s be perfectly clear: I have no issue with DO students or DO physicians, and I never suggested that I do. I think you’re raging because you have a chip on your shoulder, not because of anything I actually said.

 

[Osminog]

But it seems highly unlikely there’s enough of them to fill up the 7,000+ DO spots. I’m of course open to changing my tune with some numbers if you have access to it. How many people does a quarter of each of those ranges actually amount to? A quarter of all the applicants to MD that didn’t get accepted is only about 8,000. The amount of applicants that meet the criteria you cited above is surely even much lower, no?

According to the AAMC’s MCAT-GPA grid, in the ‘18-‘19 and ‘19-‘20 cycles, there were 13,464 applicants with 3.4+ GPAs and 510+ MCATs who didn’t receive an acceptance. (This number may be slightly inflated because of double-counting of re-applicants.) Most of these applicants weren’t matriculating into DO schools; we know this because less than 2,000 students with 507+ MCAT scores and any GPA matriculate into DO schools every year, according to AACOM matriculant data. I continue to believe that converting DO schools to regular MD-granting institutions would add thousands of high-stats applicants to their application pools and would cause their average matriculant stats to shoot up drastically.

 

[UnoMas]

It's been a long time since I visited the DO student forum and of course there's a new generation of d***bag frequent fliers who like to occasionally drop in to remind us how we are the 2nd class citizens of medicine. Nice job derailing the thread.

Why the f**** are we still talking about the MCAT and GPA? Take that **** back to the pre-med forums. 510, 515?? what the f*** kind of scale is that?

Talking about hypotheticals like converting DO schools to MD schools? What? Why? WTF? Don't you have better things to do with your free time? What are you trying to prove? What is the overarching theme here? DO schools have lower admission standards, that is a FACT, what brand new information would you like to discuss with the class?

Back to OP: Learn what you need to do well on tests, nod your head, get through the motions in OMM labs. Pass all 3 levels then purge. OMM points are easy points.

PSA to current DO students: Your education is what you make of it. Keep showing up, work hard, study hard and you WILL kick ass. You would think by this troll's logic, MD graduates from these high MCAT schools would make good residents/doctors but that's not the reality. Some of the worst residents I know are from GREAT MD schools, like 'I wouldn't let them order Tylenol without my supervision' kind of bad. It's embarrassing. Before you say I have a chip on my shoulder or I didn't do well on my tests etc. MCAT/Step1/Step2 was 35/250s/260s. Don't @ me

 

[Osminog]

It's been a long time since I visited the DO student forum and of course there's a new generation of d***bag frequent fliers who like to occasionally drop in to remind us how we are the 2nd class citizens of medicine. Nice job derailing the thread.

Why the f**** are we still talking about the MCAT and GPA? Take that **** back to the pre-med forums. 510, 515?? what the f*** kind of scale is that?

Talking about hypotheticals like converting DO schools to MD schools? What? Why? WTF? Don't you have better things to do with your free time? What are you trying to prove? What is the overarching theme here? DO schools have lower admission standards, that is a FACT, what brand new information would you like to discuss with the class?

Back to OP: Learn what you need to do well on tests, nod your head, get through the motions in OMM labs. Pass all 3 levels then purge. OMM points are easy points.

PSA to current DO students: Your education is what you make of it, work hard, study hard and you WILL kick ass. You would think by this troll's logic, MD graduates from these high MCAT schools would make good residents/doctors but that's not the reality. Some of the worst residents I know are from GREAT MD schools, like 'I wouldn't let them order Tylenol without my supervision' kind of bad. It's embarrassing. Before you say I have a chip on my shoulder or I didn't do well on my tests etc. MCAT/Step1/Step2 was 35/250s/260s. Don't @ me

The original topic of this thread was OMM lectures and how cult-like they are. My initial point was that OMM has in some ways been beneficial to many DO applicants because it deters a lot of high-stats medical school applicants from pursuing the DO path, allowing people with less-than-stellar academic profiles to have a shot at admission. People contested this by saying that there wouldn’t be enough MD-caliber applicants to fill the seats at DO schools regardless, and I explained why I disagreed with that assertion.

What you’re talking about has literally nothing to do with my posts. I didn’t say that DO residents/physicians are of lesser quality than their MD colleagues, nor did I say that DOs ought to be, borrowing your words, “second-class citizens.” Your irrelevant tirade adds nothing to the discussion, but it puts your inferiority complex on full display. Also, I’ve been completely civil here, so I’m not sure if the name-calling is necessary.

 

[builderstorch]

If you cant understand the usefulness of some OMM you aren't very bright.

 

[Osminog]

I have seen your posts. It's flaming after flaming. I am surprised the mods still let you float around in the DO students forum. My irrelevant tirade added nothing to the discussion but your original point was thought-provoking? Was it necessary to make that point? Did it spark some meaningful discussion or was it just to flame? Did you get the reactions you were hoping for?

Calling you a troll is me being civil. GTFOH and do something meaningful with your life. I wonder what kind of issues do you have to be so anti-DO. If I were to trigger a moderator to review all your posts here in the DO student forum I'm betting my left nut that they will see a clear theme.

I’m not anti-DO. I’ve never questioned the legitimacy of DO medical schools or the DO degree, nor have I ever criticized the quality of care that DO physicians provide. What I am is anti-osteopathy/OMM. I don’t think that outdated pseudoscience belongs in contemporary medical school curricula.

In this thread, I was just offering a perspective that I think isn’t often considered. Most people don’t reflect on how OMM and other aspects of the “DO difference” impact the character of the applicant pool, for better or for worse. It just adds another layer of nuance to the discussion, I think. I’m sorry if my comments upset you, through. Would you like me to try to cure your butthurt with an IT spread?

 

[Ho0v-man]

According to the AAMC’s MCAT-GPA grid, in the ‘18-‘19 and ‘19-‘20 cycles, there were 13,464 applicants with 3.4+ GPAs and 510+ MCATs who didn’t receive an acceptance. (This number may be slightly inflated because of double-counting of re-applicants.) Most of these applicants weren’t matriculating into DO schools; we know this because less than 2,000 students with 507+ MCAT scores and any GPA matriculate into DO schools every year, according to AACOM matriculant data. I continue to believe that converting DO schools to regular MD-granting institutions would add thousands of high-stats applicants to their application pools and would cause their average matriculant stats to shoot up drastically.

Wow 13,000 per cycle with those stats? If true that means I’m dead wrong. It also means that almost half of the people who don’t get in MD could basically have their pick of DO schools. I guess you’re right then.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If you cant understand the usefulness of some OMM you aren't very bright.

Lol

 

[Fat_Albert]

If you cant understand the usefulness of some OMM you aren't very bright.

I’m curious to know which ones you find useful