Rejections :(

[imtiaz]

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Everything may be true about all those foreign schools. The bottom line is this: FMGs have a harder time because they are FMGs. I don't want to be an FMG. It's completely contradictory to travel to an entirely different country to get a medical degree, and then return to the USA and live out your life here practicing. It's like an Italian flying here to learn how to make pizza, and then flying back to Italy and opening up a restaurant. What's the point?


------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[UHS05]

Hey Imtiaz:
Thanks for the crash course on "adcom confrontation" 🙂. While I don't intend to talk to them face to face (a distance problem for me...most schools I applied to are far away), I do intend to get in touch with them a little more frequently. Thanks...and once again...all the very best in your medical pursuits...

 

[twister]

Just a comment on European med schools - it's somewhat difficult for Americans to get into med schools in the UK and Ireland. The logic is that we have enough of our own med schools, there is no need for us to go abroad. The same situations exist for people in the UK and Ireland trying to get into med school here. I speak from experience, as I studied abroad at a university in Scotland and inquired about the med program (although it has a slightly different degree name there).

I would also be curious to see the "world med school" rankings.

 

[lilycat]

About Cuban med schools, they do have the reputation (or at least one of them does) for being quite good. I read a New Yorker article sometime in the last year that touched on some of this (just wish I could remember which issue). Doctors get paid crap there, but the training is actually supposedly excellent -- a very high premium is put upon it by the state.

 

[BPK2001]

Originally posted by twister:
Just a comment on European med schools - it's somewhat difficult for Americans to get into med schools in the UK and Ireland. The logic is that we have enough of our own med schools, there is no need for us to go abroad. The same situations exist for people in the UK and Ireland trying to get into med school here. I speak from experience, as I studied abroad at a university in Scotland and inquired about the med program (although it has a slightly different degree name there).

I would also be curious to see the "world med school" rankings.

The Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland takes about 50 Americans each year. To see the rankings of American and International schools see The Gourman Report printed each year. You will see that plenty of the European schools are ranked higher than some of the top schools in the U.S. ...especially the ones in France. The other's listed in the book are rated better than the lower tiered med schools in the U.S.

 

[the_rock]

I got the article as a reprint from career services at my university. I will try get another copy and scan it or give you the detals so tht you can look it up on the net. One thing that I am sure of is that it was a legitimate american source that printed the medical school findings.

Imtiaz,

I agree that it would be foolish, and even difficult to study medicine in another country, and then return here to practice. I will disagree with you on one aspect of what you said though; "...perhaps medicine evolves quickly and more efficiently in an oppressive government where the standard of living is pretty bad?" Please visit the website of Amnesty International and read information regarding life in Cuba. Here is some of the information I gleaned from there: All children up to the age of 9 are guaranteed a quart of milk per day, in addition to other sustenence. Also, every Cuban born human is guaranteed a free education up to a Ph.D. or equivalent. In addition, there are no homeless people in Cuba. Pretty amazing for such an oppresive government. There are many other details that our government leaves out whenever they attack Cuba in the news. If you are sincerely interested, let me know and I will inform you of all I know. No, I am not cuban, but I have visited there, and it is nothing like we are taught to believe it is. I also believe that you are NOT close-minded but, like I was at one time, you have been misled into that type of thinking. I apologize if I offended you, but I am only trying to clear things up.

[This message has been edited by the_rock (edited 02-22-2001).]

 

[imtiaz]

Rock,

I wasn't the one who made those remarks. It was dfleis. Just clearing things up.

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[the_rock]

Originally posted by the_rock:

Originally posted by imtiaz:
Rock,

I wasn't the one who made those remarks. It was dfleis. Just clearing things up.

You are correct, and I apologize. It was the smoke from the Cuban cigar that got in the way while I was reading dfleis's thread.

By the way I am hoping the best for you, as you seem very mature, responsible, and determined to achieve your dream.

 

[mojo md]

Originally posted by imtiaz:
Never. Why go abroad when you live in a country that has THE BEST medical training in the world? SGU has been sending me packets, calling me, but it's not even an option to me. It's not worth it. To me, if I can't become a doctor the "right" way (ie. competing against other premeds in the USA and getting accepted) then maybe I wasn't meant to be a doctor. But alas, the battle has only begun.

Are you kidding me. I am at RCSI, and happen the take a lot of pride in my school. There are not many schools in the states that I would rather go to than here. I have friends in here that were accepted to schools back home but decided to come here instead. They are paying more money and doing a extra year. We are doing it the Right way. Best of luck. Also Rock- where does my school stand? I heard in the top 20, but i am not sure.

 

[KidA]

I hear Sierra Leone has two great medical schools, one in Freetown and one near the northern border. Liberia's another possible option ... i think they pretty much accept any U.S. students that apply.

In the world rankings the two in Sierra Leone are 23rd and 24th (just behind Harvard) while the school in Liberia remains at a distant 33rd (not too bad considering Hopkins in ranked 43rd in the world!)

 

[imtiaz]

MojoMD:

I did not intend to belittle foreign schools. Sure, some are higher ranked. The point I am making is that once you get an MD from outside the US, you're an FMG. Plain and simple. Why anyone would chose to go to a foreign medical school over a US Allopathic medical school is beyond me, again, everyone has their reasons. I am merely stating my reasons for not going abroad. I'm sure the institution that you attend is highly competent and reknowned. I'm glad that you like it, but that option isn't for me. That's all I'm saying.

Later

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[KidA]

Foreigners are brainwashed.

According to the most recent world rankings, American is the world's #1 country.

 

[Linie]

Not sure if I'm contributing to this conversation or not... the problem with being an FMG is not that you would be less well-trained, in fact some would argue your clinical skills would be superior because in other countries they tend to rely less on fancy, expensive tests, and more on the history taking and physical exam. the problem is getting BACK into the US for residency or for work later. FMGs have a huge disadvantage when applying for residency, it has something to do with the funding for residency salaries, but I'd be making stuff up of I tried to come up with details. I only saw 2 FMGs on the residency interview trail, and only know of one here at Hopkins. I know of a bunch of FMGs, and foreign-trained physicians who are not allowed to see patients here so they do research or participate other aspects of health care instead.

I couldn't tell from all I read in this thread if this is all obvious to people. With my short attention span, I couldn't be bothered to read too deeply. Hope I'm not repeating anyone.

 

[the_rock]

Originally posted by dfleis:
this is really getting off the topic of the thread - but no, i'm not misinformed.. I just have a different perspective of what an oppressive government is.

you're obviously an advocate of the "cradle-to-grave" system of government. I respect that entirely, but I do not agree with it.

and yet, this isn't even what determines whether or not the government is oppressive. Please tell me how many competitive political parties there are in Cuba other than the Communist party?

And who are we to speculate on whether or not the people are actually feeling oppressed or not? All I can do is cite one baseball analyst who went to Cuba a couple years ago for the game of the Orioles vs. the Cuban national team.

Jon Miller, I believe it was - asked a bunch of little Cuban children who their favorite baseball players were... the children, who were on camera, would say the names of many star Cuban national players...

When the cameras were off, all the kids walked up to Miller, and whispered, "Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Cal Ripken" etc...

Yeah, they're not living in fear or anything.
That's how I'd love to live my life.

Especially if I'm guaranteed my milk.

- David

dfleis,

Please dont' tell me what type of person I am. Your apathy shows through your writing when you do that. I was born in a non-communist, oppressive country, and that is why I moved to america. I am not advocating anything, but I did visit there and the people were not as oppressed, of living in fear as you believe they are. Castro does not prepare children to be machines and say what he wants. Jim Miller could be lying. It is possible, since, as you said, we don't really know what is going on there, do we? And, as we all know, reporters sure like to hyperbolize stories. As I said, I have been there and I believe you haven't, which gives me a little more insight to life there, as opposed to reading, or seeing "news" on the subject. Communism might be an evil, but what do we really know about it, other than what our government feeds us. I am done and won't say anything more on the subject as you definitely have your own opinions, and are able to rationalize those perspectives, just as I have done. Just remember, perspectives(opinions) can be distorted, or learned incorrectly. Finally, opinions are like noses; we all have one, and most are full of mucous

Best wishes in medical school.

 

[imtiaz]

Game over. I lose.

This is the final breakdown:

AMCAS: 28 schools
Secondaries: 8 schools (that I sent back, anyway)
Interviews: 0
Acceptances: 0

For those of you who are on a slow connection and don't want to go back to see my stats:
2.6BPCM, 3.3AO, 2.67CUM, 21MCAT(7VR,8PS,6BS) April 2000, 31MCAT (10VR,11PS,10BS) August 2000.

One more question, if you were me, what would you do?

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[lilycat]

I'm so sorry imtiaz -- you have been such a positive poster on these boards, and seem to be a pretty good person, I was really hoping things were going to work out for you this year. I guess what seems like the most obvious suggestion to me would be a post-bacc program -- I think you've mentioned before that you have been on an upward trend with your GPA -- can you do a post-bacc or science masters to try to boost your science GPA to at least a 3.0, or prove that you can do the work? I think you mentioned in the past that you were communicating with someone in UIC's admissions office -- what were their suggestions at the time, or could you talk to them again at this point?

 

[fiatslug]

Hi imitiaz--I'm sorry it didn't work out for you this time. Hey, there's a guy in my first year class who applied FIVE times before he got in--persistance can indeed pay off!

If I were you, I'd talk to an advisor (maybe gower can calculate this for you) and find out how many undergrad science classes you'd need to ACE to boost that UGPA to a 3.3-3.5, and then I'd just start racking them up, full-time, tedious as it may seem. Take everything you'll see in your first year: biochem, molecular biology, anatomy, physio, genetics, histology, micro, neuroscience, immunology... that way it won't be wasted time (and you'll be in great shape to enjoy first year, when you get here! you might even be able to pass out of some first year coursework). In the meantime, do all you can to build relationships with admissions staff at schools you want to go to. Get people to go to bat for you. You've conquered the MCAT part of the numbers game; now you've got to attack that UGPA. You know, I'm sure, that graduate work won't be nearly as helpful, because it's not factored into the UGPA.

I know it's got to feel hugely discouraging, but do note that many many good future doctors have to apply more than once. Stay positive!

 

[imtiaz]

Well, I've been pretty busy this past year and as of now I have a few choices.

1) I could start to work.
-I've been offered a position at UIC Medical school. It's a fairly drone-esque position that requires me to purify proteins and then run 3D NMR on them. This choice is the least appealing to me. Although it would improve some of my cash flow!

2)I could withdraw my intent to graduate and ride my scholarship another year and take more undergraduate courses.
-This option seems great, but the thought of "spinning my tires" for a year to bring up my GPA with no real assurance of acceptance is kind of disconcerting. I've calculated how long it's going to take me to get to a 3.5 and it's very discouraging. It's going to tak e me 3 YEARS to pull it up to a 3.5. If I go an extra year, completely ACING all the courses I take (which is not so bad, considering I'll be taking relatively easy Biology classes) I can be at a max GPA of a 3.1. It's all pretty confusing.

3)I can start on my PhD thesis
-This is a step forward, right? I can start graduate school and work on my PhD thesis in Analytical Chemistry. The problem with this is that it does absolutely nothing for my undergraduate GPA, which will be a 2.8 when I graduate this May, by the way. Another thing is I want to start medical school while I'm still young and can take the rigors of the cirriculum.

So now I ask all of you: If I start this Fall in a PhD program, will it SEVERELY hinder my application to a medical school? I was going to try for MD/PhD anyway, and I'm not looking to go into primary care. Can anybody help with this? I know many people who have completed their PhD and then gone on to med school, but I haven't heard of many people starting in a PhD program and going to medical school. Keep in mind that I'm not "ditching" the PhD program to go to medical school, I plan on finishing it. I do know of one instance where a pharmacy program accepted a PhD candidate in the Chemistry department, but she left the PhD program altogether.

Any suggestions?

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[medgrrl]

Sorry- I'm not going to give you any suggestions in this post- maybe Gower's around somewhere. But you do have my sympathies for your bad news (their loss!!!)- but also, my admiration for your perseverance. Every time another rejection letter comes, I start telling myself that the med school thing is just never going to happen. Good for you that you're going ahead with things- honestly, any of those options sounds really doable- I personally would start the PhD thing cuz then I would have *at least* that in my pocket and I could start on a really interesting career even if med school doesn't figure into my plans any time soon.

 

[nmehta]

Forgive my ignorance Imtiaz, but have you considered osteopathic medical schools? i am not sure if you have already addressed this option, but your high MCAT score and recent high grades, coupled with an explanation for your less stellar performance earlier, may be enough to convince adcomms.

Regards,
Neel

 

[kris]

Imtiaz,
First, I'm sorry you didn't get in this year. I think you'll be in good shape on the next round, especially if someone like UIC is willing to tell you exactly what they'd like to see: e.g., 2 years of solid grades in science as a post-bacc, or whatever they suggest.

Second, my experience (due to some HUGELY bad advising) is that most medical schools won't give your app a second look if you are still in a PhD program. I was in a PhD program, and the pre-med office assured me I was in a position to apply. Just for example, Loyola refused to send me a secondary, citing this as the reason: I was still in a PhD program. (I don't know whether it makes a difference if you're going from PhD programs to MD/PhD programs, and your PhD goals remain in the same area)

When I spoke to other medical schools, and one admissions office in particular, they told me that there is a great reluctance to take grad students from a current program, even if you think you will finish by the time med school matriculation rolls around. It's some sort of unwritten rule that you don't "steal" students from one grad program for another program. I was ABD (all but dissertation), ditched the program with a terminal MA, took some more science classes, and got in. And this is exactly what the med school I wanted to go to told me to do. Man, they were REALLY nice to me!

Someone may disagree about med schools taking students who are currently in PhD programs, but I can only tell you what I found out first-hand, the hard way. At any rate, I think you should investigate deeply before you plunge into a PhD program--for which I don't think you'd be able to start working on your thesis right away as you stated--unless there's something totally bizarre I don't know about your situation.
Besides, isn't it too late to apply for any PhD programs starting in the Fall? That's neither here nor there.

I lived through rejection (and some really bad advising). If I had found this place I wouldn't have made such a huge mistake. So if I can add a general comment to post-baccs/grads in general: Beware undergraduate pre-med advising offices. They may have such little experience dealing with post-baccs and grads that their advice may be way off base. Ahhh, if only I had known...

Imtiaz, I hope this helps, even if it just makes you investigate a bit more.
--Kris


[This message has been edited by kris (edited 03-17-2001).]

 

[kris]

"Another thing is I want to start medical school while I'm still young and can take the rigors of the cirriculum."

Ahem. And exactly what were you thinking of as too old for the curriculum?

--Kris

 

[BB07734]

Hi Imtiaz:

I am new here and I read your story. Let me tell you my friend's story.

He graduated from NYC in 1997 with a 2.8 science GPA, MCAT was 31. He applied and he did not get in anywhere (2 interviews followed by rejection). Then he went to graduate school for a year (MS program, majoring in Bio in a public school). He got straight As in the first 2 semesters (a total of 28 credits), and he was taking the MCAT again in April, 1999. His breakdown was V11 B12 P11 WQ. On top of it, he had a publication (by that time it was in press). He applied again in 1999 and he got multiple acceptance.

FYI: he was a 26-yr-old white male in 1999

I would suggest go to graduate school for a year, do some research which could lead you to a publication, get good grades, take the MCAT in April 2002, and apply early in June. If you can get 12 on PS and BS, I think you will be in good shape.

Hope this helps...

Eric

[This message has been edited by BB07734 (edited 03-18-2001).]

 

[imtiaz]

I will have a publication out sometime this summer. So I'll be able to use that for 2002.

The big question now that the PhD issue has been addressed (thanks Kris) is: What will help more? Increasing the undergrad to a 2.9-3.1 or getting a 4.0 master's GPA?

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[imtiaz]

Well, I'm 21 now. I'd like to start med school before I'm 23 or 24.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by kris:
"Another thing is I want to start medical school while I'm still young and can take the rigors of the cirriculum."

Ahem. And exactly what were you thinking of as too old for the curriculum?

--Kris •

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[fiatslug]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by imtiaz:

The big question now that the PhD issue has been addressed (thanks Kris) is: What will help more? Increasing the undergrad to a 2.9-3.1 or getting a 4.0 master's GPA?
•

Your MCAT scores are fine, I wouldn't screw around with a retake IMHO. It is MUCH more important to raise that UGPA than to get a master's at this point. Grade inflation is rampant in grad schools--no one gets below a B in anything, and adcoms know this. Your application will go through the classic UGPA and MCAT initial filter, and that's the problem: all that stellar grad work won't do you much good at all unless you pass the primary screen. And you've got to get that UGPA above a 3.3 to make that cutoff. My friend in my first year class had a Ph.D in neuroscience, and she was rejected last year because she hadn't taken (and aced) enough undergraduate science courses--she had to go back to school to take classes with the very undergrads she was teaching in her OWN classes! Don't fall into the trap of thinking a MA in physiology (or whatever) is your ticket to ride, unless that program has a specific affiliation with (and can offer acceptance stats to prove it) a medical school.

Lastly, my sweet, you are a babe in the woods. There is plenty of time ahead of you. I'm 31, and my med school allows me to park in the handicapped lot because of my highly advanced age. I wear adult diapers since I lost control of bowel and bladder functions way back in my late 20's, but my classmates don't seem to mind (though I confess no one sits really close to me in lecture hall). Frequently the shattering of my osteoporotic bones causes disruption of the lecture, but people don't make me feel bad about it. My hands have a little palsy during anatomy lab, but no one seemed to mind when I accidently bisected psoas major on both sides. Sometimes the emeritus faculty and I will meet at our AARP meetings and talk of the good old days, when you could just ride your horse into town without worrying about the price of gasoline--all you needed was hay! I think back on my days working in the factory alongside my Rosie the Riveter colleagues during WWII, and it makes me proud. Even prouder still to be beating the young whippersnappers at my medical school at the shuffleboard tournaments I've been organizing--and you would not believe how they've taken to Bingo Nights! Well, I'm off to Denny's for the early bird special.

 

[lilycat]

Slug, I've missed your posts.

Sorry imtiaz, but I'm not too aware about how differently schools view grad school GPA and ugrad GPA, but fiatslug seemed to offer some pretty convincing information. I would suggest calling UIC, and any other schools you are really serious about, and get a recommendation from them on this one as well. Since it sounds like you can afford to be in school another year, I think I would probably go that route -- even a 3.1 will be a big step up -- you just have to be above that 3.0 at least. I don't think I would mess with retaking the MCAT again either, unless you really think you could get 35+. Keep us informed.

 

[imtiaz]

You are awesome. I laughed for a good 15 minutes after reading this.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by fiatslug:

Lastly, my sweet, you are a babe in the woods. There is plenty of time ahead of you. I'm 31, and my med school allows me to park in the handicapped lot because of my highly advanced age. I wear adult diapers since I lost control of bowel and bladder functions way back in my late 20's, but my classmates don't seem to mind (though I confess no one sits really close to me in lecture hall). Frequently the shattering of my osteoporotic bones causes disruption of the lecture, but people don't make me feel bad about it. My hands have a little palsy during anatomy lab, but no one seemed to mind when I accidently bisected psoas major on both sides. Sometimes the emeritus faculty and I will meet at our AARP meetings and talk of the good old days, when you could just ride your horse into town without worrying about the price of gasoline--all you needed was hay! I think back on my days working in the factory alongside my Rosie the Riveter colleagues during WWII, and it makes me proud. Even prouder still to be beating the young whippersnappers at my medical school at the shuffleboard tournaments I've been organizing--and you would not believe how they've taken to Bingo Nights! Well, I'm off to Denny's for the early bird special.•

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[gower]

The problem with graduate grades: usually, there are only two passing grades in a grad program: A and B. C, if they even give C, is considered a failure. Thus, B is a second rate grade, more akin to C undergrad, no matter if it is calculated as the same B earned in undergrad. A grad thesis is no substitute for good grades, especially outside of biology/chemistry.

From your posts, it seems to me you were consulting only yourself, friends and web sites such as this, throughout college and through the whole admissions process.
If you are an A student with high MCATs, you can get away with it, if not, you are asking for trouble. You needed guidance from someone knowledgeable and experienced in the process, familiar with the curriculum at your college, and with the track record from your college, to suggest which medical schools you should be applying to and where else, with high probability, you will be wasting your time, effort, money and damaging your psyche along the way by rejection.

Despite widespread denial by professional schools and disbelief by students, it DOES make a difference which college/university an applicant attends. Leaf through medical school catalogs some time and see if there is a list of of students in the last entering class. Such lists usually include the undergrad schools they earned their degree from. While these lists only include those accepted who chose to attend, you will get some of idea of from where the class is largely derived. In recent years, such rosters are less common than they were in the past, probably to maintain the fiction that all colleges are equal. In Animal Farm, a 1950s satirical novel by George Orwell about the Soviet Union, the slogan was "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others". That is the unwritten and unspoken slogan of professional schools of all kinds.

Caveat emptor: let the buyer beware!

 

[imtiaz]

There's at least two problems with this right off.

1) The medical school I'm trying to get into is the SAME undergraduate school I attended. How can this possibly hinder my chances there?

2) I keep mentioning this, all the advice I get is straight from a member of the admissions comittee at the medical school.

Thanks for trying though.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by gower:
The problem with graduate grades: usually, there are only two passing grades in a grad program: A and B. C, if they even give C, is considered a failure. Thus, B is a second rate grade, more akin to C undergrad, no matter if it is calculated as the same B earned in undergrad. A grad thesis is no substitute for good grades, especially outside of biology/chemistry.

From your posts, it seems to me you were consulting only yourself, friends and web sites such as this, throughout college and through the whole admissions process.
If you are an A student with high MCATs, you can get away with it, if not, you are asking for trouble. You needed guidance from someone knowledgeable and experienced in the process, familiar with the curriculum at your college, and with the track record from your college, to suggest which medical schools you should be applying to and where else, with high probability, you will be wasting your time, effort, money and damaging your psyche along the way by rejection.

Despite widespread denial by professional schools and disbelief by students, it DOES make a difference which college/university an applicant attends. Leaf through medical school catalogs some time and see if there is a list of of students in the last entering class. Such lists usually include the undergrad schools they earned their degree from. While these lists only include those accepted who chose to attend, you will get some of idea of from where the class is largely derived. In recent years, such rosters are less common than they were in the past, probably to maintain the fiction that all colleges are equal. In Animal Farm, a 1950s satirical novel by George Orwell about the Soviet Union, the slogan was "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others". That is the unwritten and unspoken slogan of professional schools of all kinds.

Caveat emptor: let the buyer beware!•

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[kris]

So, Imtiaz,
What DID/DOES the admissions committee say you should do? Did they address your 3 options? Have you had a chance to ask them yet? I went with adcom advice, and it worked for me. I'm just curious about what they suggest. Nosy, huh? And by the way, please don't take my own experience as the final word on the PhD route (though I think it's correct info). I'd just like you to ask the adcomms the right questions. So bring that issue up.

Sorry if you already posted the UIC adcom recommendations. I'm, quite frankly, too lazy to go back through 5 pages of posts! It's too hard on my 31 y.o. eyes.
--Kris

 

[owcc16]

All this talk about Cuba not being bad is kinda funny, considering the fact that there are MANY MANY Christian missionaries that are still in prisons down there, being tortured every day. There is no freedom of religion down there, and no room for a capitalist gov't under Fidel's regime.

We Americans should consider ourselves blessed. The Christian principles which our country was founded upon have made us a great nation, and we will continue to be great if we are humble and abide by those principles. If we do not repent and fall at the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ, we will surely be broken with the iron rod "like a piece of potter's clay".

owcc16

 

[imtiaz]

I have an appointment this Thursday. (my 5th so far)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by kris:
So, Imtiaz,
What DID/DOES the admissions committee say you should do? Did they address your 3 options? Have you had a chance to ask them yet? I went with adcom advice, and it worked for me. I'm just curious about what they suggest. Nosy, huh? And by the way, please don't take my own experience as the final word on the PhD route (though I think it's correct info). I'd just like you to ask the adcomms the right questions. So bring that issue up.

Sorry if you already posted the UIC adcom recommendations. I'm, quite frankly, too lazy to go back through 5 pages of posts! It's too hard on my 31 y.o. eyes.
--Kris•

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[Kid_Charlemagne]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Originally posted by kris:
"Another thing is I want to start medical school while I'm still young and can take the rigors of the cirriculum."

Ahem. And exactly what were you thinking of as too old for the curriculum?

--Kris •

I would like to know as well since I will be 32 before I am accepted....
The Kid.

------------------
Ya, thats what I thought...

 

[Kid_Charlemagne]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">

We Americans should consider ourselves blessed. The Christian principles which our country was founded upon have made us a great nation, and we will continue to be great if we are humble and abide by those principles. If we do not repent and fall at the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ, we will surely be broken with the iron rod "like a piece of potter's clay".

owcc16[/B]•

Do I hear an amenwhat ever

------------------
Ya, thats what I thought...

 

[kris]

Originally posted by imtiaz:
I have an appointment this Thursday. (my 5th so far)

And. . . ?
--nosy Kris

 

[imtiaz]

My long running diatribes with the medical school admissions people at UIC has always been helpful. I feel a lot better now. In a nutshell, they said everything on my application is good except my low GPA. They hinted that a 3.3 would "really help out a lot." When I mentioned that at the time of reapplication I will be at a 2.9, the reply was merely "Every little bit helps." The guy recognized me, how could he not, this is my fifth time talking with the same guy! Anyhow, I'm feeling a lot better about the whole thing. Just got to give it another try I suppose.

More as it develops.

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[viperdoc]

Imtiaz,
Maybe you just bug them too much! The adcomm people probably thnk you'r a pest.

 

[imtiaz]

viperdoc,

Kind of like you're being a pest on my thread?

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[lilycat]

So, have you decided on a plan for next year? Did they recommend post-bacc work to bring up the GPA?

 

[imtiaz]

Yeah, I've got a plan.

I'm going to graduate. Then I'm going to take summer school, and maybe one additional semester of all Biology. These will be easy As. At the end of this, I'll have taken Anatomy, Histology, Microbiology, Genetics. Those seem to be the core courses that are applicable towards medical school. I've already taken Biochemistry I and II, so I'm fine in that regard.

As far as activities, I've been steady going into the OR, and I'll just continue that. As well as continue doing research.

Thats pretty much the plan that me and the adcom put together. So I'm gonna give it a try and see what happens.

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.

 

[Asteras1]

-Hey Imtiaz,

Just thought I'd give you a little UIC update about myself although I'm pretty sure you know more about what's going there with all the appointments you have made with them.

They reviewed my completed application 2 weeks ago and they...passed me over.

Suffice to say, this is a rejection as far as I am concerned. From what I know, UIC is now booked solid and they will probably use the next adcom meeting in mid-April to generate a wait-list and MAYBE fill 2 or 3 vacated spots (I'm not really sure but I'm making a little educated guess based on what I am hearing). I'm not the strongest applicant so I'm probably going to be buried deep on that list. If I get in, it will probably be right at the "buzzer."(Beginning of classes)I think I'm going to retool and try this app process again but the MCAT has got me spooked and its the only thing that is really holding me back. I'm an excellent test taker but that's the only exam that has ever managed to psyche me out. I'll have to take it in August because I just couldn't fit it in this spring unfortunately which doesn't bode well if I apply in the next app cycle.

Enough of my little sob story, I was wondering what you have been hearing from the UIC adcom people you have spoken to? Since you might be in the same position as myself once this is over, what are you planning to do once you graduate and apply again? I know I'm not doing grad school because my GPA is really good and I don't want to mess with it (hopefully my last semester doesn't screw it up either). Plus, I'm not really interested in research. Do youhave any alternative ideas? Would registering somewhere as a non-degree student and taking a couple of classes be a good thing to do? Any suggestions for working somewhere full time like at a hopital?

You seem like one of the more knowledgeable people on this board so I'd appreciate your input if you would be so kind. Thanks.

 

[imtiaz]

Asteras,

Have you done any research? Every time I go in the guy just starts naming things and checking to see if I have them. He starts off with MCAT, "Your MCAT is fine." Then volunteering, "Your extracirriculars and volunteering are good, you were given consideration for them." Then research, "Are you still doing research over at (so and so)'s lab?" Then the big hit, "The only problem I can see is your GPA, you need to bring it up." I think, especially at UIC, that they look for a little bit of everything. If you don't have any research under your belt, get into it. Find something you like, and are interested in. You should only be involved in activities that will augment your application. If your GPA is good what reason is there for you to take classes? They like you to stay in academia, you can do that by doing research. Voluntary or paid. It doesn't matter. If your MCAT is marginal and you want to up the score, then I suggest you study and take it again. One of my other friends is in a similar situation. The freak has a 3.8 GPA and a 27MCAT. He didn't get in anywhere. He's devoting this entire year to studying for the MCAT, and on the side he's doing research at UIC med school. Right upstairs from me in fact. He's already got a paper coming out in JBC.

So if it doesn't work out for you, I'd suggest that you get involved in research and keep up your volunteering. That was one thing the guy stressed was to maintain research/volunteering. I'll say a little prayer for you for 2001, if not hopefully we'll be classmates in 2002!

------------------
Imtiaz
----------------------------------------------------------------
I write messages on money.
It's my own form of social protest.
A letter printed on paper that no one will destroy.
Passed indiscriminately across race, class, and gender lines, and written on the blood that keeps the beast alive.
A quiet little hijacking on the way to the checkout counter, and a federal crime.
I hope that someone will find my message one day when they really need it.
YOU ARE NOT A SLAVE.