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Relatively new medical schools (Hofstra, Wmed)?

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hopefulscribe2

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Hi,

What is the general consensus on relatively new medical schools like Western mi and Hofstra? They are able to attract very high stats applicants for some reason despite being not established. It seems that Hofstra is considered a middle tier school with a great hospital system. But what is the strength of something like Western Mi? Would there be enough research opportunities/ good hospital affilitations at these new medical schools? Thanks.
 

doc05

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Hi,

What is the general consensus on relatively new medical schools like Western mi and Hofstra? They are able to attract very high stats applicants for some reason despite being not established. It seems that Hofstra is considered a middle tier school with a great hospital system. But what is the strength of something like Western Mi? Would there be enough research opportunities/ good hospital affilitations at these new medical schools? Thanks.

Hofstra isn’t affiliated with a great hospital system.
 

Obnoxious Dad

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Hi,

What is the general consensus on relatively new medical schools like Western mi and Hofstra? They are able to attract very high stats applicants for some reason despite being not established. It seems that Hofstra is considered a middle tier school with a great hospital system. But what is the strength of something like Western Mi? Would there be enough research opportunities/ good hospital affilitations at these new medical schools? Thanks.
Western Michigan is affiliated with the Bronson Healthcare and Borgess Hospital. These two hospitals were rotation sites for Michigan State students and there are lots of residency programs based at these hospitals.
 

Lexdiamondz

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Northwell is a pretty large healthcare network with alot of residencies - some reputable, some not so much. From what I've seen the last several years a good number of Hofstra grads end up in competitive residencies, and a large number stay in-house and train at Northwell which , while not exactly competitive, nonetheless offers a wide range of specialties and subspecialty training.
 

Quantal Reasoning

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Hofstra is a great school. They place students all over in really competitive residencies.
 
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gonnif

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Isn't Northwell a really big hospital system that their med students do their rotations in?

My understanding is that Hofstra is associated with some major LI and NYC hospitals.

Northwell is a pretty large healthcare network with alot of residencies - some reputable, some not so much. From what I've seen the last several years a good number of Hofstra grads end up in competitive residencies, and a large number stay in-house and train at Northwell which , while not exactly competitive, nonetheless offers a wide range of specialties and subspecialty training.

Hofstra is a great school. They place students all over in really competitive residencies.

Hofstra is essentially Northwell Medical school. I was born in the original Northshore Community Hospital which was so small then, it still had cows in back on the last part of the Whitney estate. The system now encompasses some 25+ hospitals and continues to buy up medical buildings and practices at an alarming rate. It is in competition with NYU Langone, which just opened another medical school branch on Long Island after buying the last remaining large hospital Winthrop, as well as Prohealth which is part of OptumCare which is part of United Healthcare. I should look into how all this is effecting the SUNY Stony Brook rotations. These are followed by Catholic Health Services which is a distant 4th on Long Island. Northwell, which flagship hospitals are Northshore (a teaching center for NYU) and Long Island Jewish (a teaching center for Einstein), provides outstanding opportunities for rotations in all specialties and therefore networking / auditions for the numerous residencies. Its location also allows for easy away rotations in New York City which is still a leading, if not the leading, city for residency training.

In essence, Hofstra should be considered a well-established, almost at NYC level, school and was already in high rank from the moment it opened
 
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Lexdiamondz

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Hofstra is essentially Northwell Medical school. I was born in the original Northshore Community Hospital which was so small then, it still had cows in back on the last part of the Whitney estate. The system now encompasses some 25+ hospitals and continues to buy up medical buildings and practices at an alarming rate. It is in competition with NYU Langone, which just opened another medical school branch on Long Island after buying the last remaining large hospital Winthrop, as well as Prohealth which is part of OptumCare which is part of United Healthcare. I should look into how all this is effecting the SUNY Stony Brook rotations. These are followed by Catholic Health Services which is a distant 4th on Long Island. Northwell, which flagship hospitals are Northshore (a teaching center for NYU) and Long Island Jewish (a teaching center for Einstein), provides outstanding opportunities for rotations in all specialties and therefore networking / auditions for the numerous residencies. Its location also allows for easy away rotations in New York City which is still a leading, if not the leading, city for residency training.

In essence, Hofstra should be considered a well-established, almost at NYC level, school and was already in high rank from the moment it opened

Not quite.

Hofstra is a solid school, but it's not remotely a "high rank" institution. As of now it's affliation w Northwell mostly gives it access to community sites - Northwell by and large is not an academic institution and does attract or generate a level of academic talent (research grants, etc) comparable to any of NYCs "big four" - Columbia, Cornell, Sinai and NYU and are still behind Stony Brook and Einstein.
 
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gonnif

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Not quite.

Hofstra is a solid school, but it's not remotely a "high rank" institution. As of now it's affliation w Northwell mostly gives it access to community sites - Northwell by and large is not an academic institution and does attract or generate a level of academic talent (research grants, etc) comparable to any of NYCs "big four" - Columbia, Cornell, Sinai and NYU and are still behind Stony Brook and Einstein.

Yeah, I would agree that is more accurate way to view. Solid and more like an "established" school rather a "new" school in many respects.
 
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Goro

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Not quite.

Hofstra is a solid school, but it's not remotely a "high rank" institution. As of now it's affliation w Northwell mostly gives it access to community sites - Northwell by and large is not an academic institution and does attract or generate a level of academic talent (research grants, etc) comparable to any of NYCs "big four" - Columbia, Cornell, Sinai and NYU and are still behind Stony Brook and Einstein.
Obviously Hofstra is not on par with the Manhattan Titans, but based upon the degree of competitiveness to get into Hofstra, I'd place it in the Einstein class.

Having grown up on Long Island, I agree with the wise gonnif that Hofstra's teaching hospitals are solid places.
 

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I interviewed at WMed. I would say that Hofstra is more established and has a better ranking, but WMed seems like they will shoot up in rankings once they publish their results later down the line. WMed has a great match list for their first year class and the facilities were nice. The only negative I can think of is that they don't appear to have many basic science research opportunities available, but most students do clinical anyways. I doubt you can go wrong with either of the two.
 
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Obviously Hofstra is not on par with the Manhattan Titans, but based upon the degree of competitiveness to get into Hofstra, I'd place it in the Einstein class.

Having grown up on Long Island, I agree with the wise gonnif that Hofstra's teaching hospitals are solid places.
This says a lot about Einstein if a new school is already near their ranks
 

manofsteel9

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This is a list of M4s who matched into Western Michigan's residency programs in 2017 and 2018: http://www.med.wmich.edu/sites/default/files/2017-06/Match_List 2017_0.pdf
http://med.wmich.edu/sites/default/files/2018-03/Match_List 2018.pdf

I was personally surprised by it, but I'll let others interpret the results as they see fit.

I interviewed at WMed. I would say that Hofstra is more established and has a better ranking, but WMed seems like they will shoot up in rankings once they publish their results later down the line. WMed has a great match list for their first year class and the facilities were nice. The only negative I can think of is that they don't appear to have many basic science research opportunities available, but most students do clinical anyways. I doubt you can go wrong with either of the two.

Judging from the match list provided, it doesn't seem impressive at all..a bunch of osteopathic programs, and Caribbean/foreign schools without many specialties.
 
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Master Thinker

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Judging from the match list provided, it doesn't seem impressive at all..a bunch of osteopathic programs, and Caribbean/foreign schools without many specialties.
These are people who match into Wmed residency positions, not Wmed students matching out. For their students matching out, there were lots of people going into competitive specialties.
 
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Lexdiamondz

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Obviously Hofstra is not on par with the Manhattan Titans, but based upon the degree of competitiveness to get into Hofstra, I'd place it in the Einstein class.

Having grown up on Long Island, I agree with the wise gonnif that Hofstra's teaching hospitals are solid places.

I think the competitiveness is somewhat inflated relative to the actual academic activity going on at Hofstra v. Einstein. Einstein and Stony Brook have wayyyyyy more high-impact projects going on both in bench research and clinically, and besides the mothership NS/LIJ, most of Northwell's sites are glorified community hospitals that serve as a means to drum up business for the main hospitals via referrals.

I have a few good friends who went to Hofstra med and they had to seek research opportunities elsewhere in the tri-state area in order to build apps competitive for the fields they were looking towards. Truthfully, I would probably say Hofstra is closer to NYMC than Einstein as a research institution, with the caveat that Hofstra offers way more opportunities for postgraduate training than NYMC.
 
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manofsteel9

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These are people who match into Wmed residency positions, not Wmed students matching out. For their students matching out, there were lots of people going into competitive specialties.

Woops, sorry! I’ve just never heard of schools publishing a “Match Day” list showing M4’s matching into their programs. I stand corrected.
 

Goro

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This says a lot about Einstein if a new school is already near their ranks
I think the competitiveness is somewhat inflated relative to the actual academic activity going on at Hofstra v. Einstein. Einstein and Stony Brook have wayyyyyy more high-impact projects going on both in bench research and clinically, and besides the mothership NS/LIJ, most of Northwell's sites are glorified community hospitals that serve as a means to drum up business for the main hospitals via referrals.

I have a few good friends who went to Hofstra med and they had to seek research opportunities elsewhere in the tri-state area in order to build apps competitive for the fields they were looking towards. Truthfully, I would probably say Hofstra is closer to NYMC than Einstein as a research institution, with the caveat that Hofstra offers way more opportunities for postgraduate training than NYMC.
Well, if one defines a school by research, then yeah, Hofstra, which has 1/2 the NIH funding (25 million) than does SUNY SB ($50 million) and 1/4 that of Einstein (~100 million) is not in their class.

But there's more to a med school than just research.

Hofstra's teaching hospitals may be just "glorified community hospitals", but their volumes have to be massive, given the population of Nassau and Suffolk counties...and parts of Queens as well. That has to count for something.

To clarify, my scale of competitive is the median stats of the students.

Hofstra: 3.8/516
Einstein: 3.8/515
SUNY SB: 3.8/514
 
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Lexdiamondz

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Well, if one defines a school by research, then yeah, Hofstra, which has 1/2 the NIH funding (25 million) than does SUNY SB ($50 million) and 1/4 that of Einstein (~100 million) is not in their class.

But there's more to a med school than just research.

Hofstra's teaching hospitals may be just "glorified community hospitals", but their volumes have to be massive, given the population of Nassau and Suffolk counties...and parts of Queens as well. That has to count for something.

To clarify, my scale of competitive is the median stats of the students.

Hofstra: 3.8/516
Einstein: 3.8/515
SUNY SB: 3.8/514

Which is precisely why I said that Hofstra's competitiveness is inflated. Einstein and SB both offer much more academically - they have an actual teaching hospital with attendings who are experienced teaching medical students, a very strong alumni network across many well-regarded institutions (compare the match lists ) and research if you want it, meanwhile the only thing Hofstra really can offer is nice facilities.

Hofstra's a solid school, but it's still overrated relative to it's regional competition.
 

Goro

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Which is precisely why I said that Hofstra's competitiveness is inflated. Einstein and SB both offer much more academically - they have an actual teaching hospital with attendings who are experienced teaching medical students, a very strong alumni network across many well-regarded institutions (compare the match lists ) and research if you want it, meanwhile the only thing Hofstra really can offer is nice facilities.

Hofstra's a solid school, but it's still overrated relative to it's regional competition.
I agree that it's more like a hospital with a medical school attached. This does seem to be a trend in medical education these days.
 

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I interviewed at WMed the first day, was accepted, but probably won't attend even with the offered merit aid.

Like others have said, it lacks substantial research opportunities. Additionally its affiliate clinical programs in KZoo are also lacking; one major rotation site is still establishing a primary care residency (!). As others have pointed out, they have many IMGs which is something of a red flag for a university program well. Doesn't seem in line with their solid stats. They and FIU are the only USMD programs that pre-screen for Step 1 as well, which doesn't inspire confidence in the quality of their preclinical years. A number of students have complained about administrative difficulties. That said it's a close-knit program with great facilities, but those don't counterbalance the other issues with WMed.

Western Michigan invites many applicants with higher MCATs and hopes that as many stick around as possible. They prioritize MCAT over GPA due to the nice optics of having a 516 median (now). In the end, well-rounded applications will get better offers and go elsewhere. The ones with weaker ECs will attend because they don't get offers from other LM 70-74 schools who have a stronger reputation.

MSU, Wayne State, and OUWB are all stronger programs than WMed. They avoid most or all of the cirricular and research -based flaws displayed by WMed. "Peer" programs by stats like Einstein Dartmouth and Emory are also superior in both opportunity and reputation.
 
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Goro

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I interviewed at WMed the first day, was accepted, but probably won't attend even with the offered merit aid.

Like others have said, it lacks substantial research opportunities. Additionally its affiliate clinical programs in KZoo are also lacking; one major rotation site is still establishing a primary care residency (!). As others have pointed out, they have many IMGs which is something of a red flag for a university program well. Doesn't seem in line with their solid stats. They and FIU are the only USMD programs that pre-screen for Step 1 as well, which doesn't inspire confidence in the quality of their preclinical years. A number of students have complained about administrative difficulties. That said it's a close-knit program with great facilities, but those don't counterbalance the other issues with WMed.

Western Michigan invites many applicants with higher MCATs and hopes that as many stick as possible. They prioritize MCAT over GPA due to the nice optics of having a 516 median (now). In the end, well-rounded applications will get better offers and go elsewhere. The ones with weaker ECs will attend because they don't get offers from other LM 70-74 schools who have a stronger reputation.

MSU, Wayne State, and OUWB are all stronger programs than WMed. They avoid most or all of the cirricular and research -based flaws displayed by WMed. "Peer" programs by stats like Einstein Dartmouth and Emory are also superior in both opportunity and reputation.
3.66/515 according to MSAR. I thought that it was 514. They have a ways to go for extramural funding....only $27K!
 
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altblue

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3.66/515 according to MSAR. I thought that it was 514. They have a ways to go for extramural funding....only $27K!
It was a 3.6x/516 admitted at my interview day lol. The MSAR is a year behind as well
 

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I interviewed at WMed the first day, was accepted, but probably won't attend even with the offered merit aid.

Like others have said, it lacks substantial research opportunities. Additionally its affiliate clinical programs in KZoo are also lacking; one major rotation site is still establishing a primary care residency (!). As others have pointed out, they have many IMGs which is something of a red flag for a university program well. Doesn't seem in line with their solid stats. They and FIU are the only USMD programs that pre-screen for Step 1 as well, which doesn't inspire confidence in the quality of their preclinical years. A number of students have complained about administrative difficulties. That said it's a close-knit program with great facilities, but those don't counterbalance the other issues with WMed.

Western Michigan invites many applicants with higher MCATs and hopes that as many stick as possible. They prioritize MCAT over GPA due to the nice optics of having a 516 median (now). In the end, well-rounded applications will get better offers and go elsewhere. The ones with weaker ECs will attend because they don't get offers from other LM 70-74 schools who have a stronger reputation.

MSU, Wayne State, and OUWB are all stronger programs than WMed. They avoid most or all of the cirricular and research -based flaws displayed by WMed. "Peer" programs by stats like Einstein Dartmouth and Emory are also superior in both opportunity and reputation.

Yeah I got an accept as well but turning it down for an in state school. Seems like they are mostly trying to recruit those who have good stats but were unlucky, or not well-rounded enough, to get into stat peer schools. Makes me think their yield would likely be low as well. With that said, I would happily attend if it was my only choice.
 
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altblue

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Yeah I got an accept as well but turning it down for an in state school. Seems like they are mostly trying to recruit those who have good stats but were unlucky, or not well-rounded enough, to get into stat peer schools. Makes me think their yield would likely be low as well. With that said, I would happily attend if it was my only choice.
Yup, agreed.

Rn I have an offer from another small program that's a better fit, OUWB. I look heavily at sense of community/class size, so if the accept were Wayne, Jeff etc. I'd def still entertain WMed
 
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hopefulscribe2

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I interviewed at WMed the first day, was accepted, but probably won't attend even with the offered merit aid.

Like others have said, it lacks substantial research opportunities. Additionally its affiliate clinical programs in KZoo are also lacking; one major rotation site is still establishing a primary care residency (!). As others have pointed out, they have many IMGs which is something of a red flag for a university program well. Doesn't seem in line with their solid stats. They and FIU are the only USMD programs that pre-screen for Step 1 as well, which doesn't inspire confidence in the quality of their preclinical years. A number of students have complained about administrative difficulties. That said it's a close-knit program with great facilities, but those don't counterbalance the other issues with WMed.

Western Michigan invites many applicants with higher MCATs and hopes that as many stick around as possible. They prioritize MCAT over GPA due to the nice optics of having a 516 median (now). In the end, well-rounded applications will get better offers and go elsewhere. The ones with weaker ECs will attend because they don't get offers from other LM 70-74 schools who have a stronger reputation.

MSU, Wayne State, and OUWB are all stronger programs than WMed. They avoid most or all of the cirricular and research -based flaws displayed by WMed. "Peer" programs by stats like Einstein Dartmouth and Emory are also superior in both opportunity and reputation.

The interesting thing is that WMed has been able to have a very impressive match list as noted by another user.
 

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So I presume you would pick Stony over Hofstra?

I would.

I don’t know northwell specifically, but yes.

Why?

As for community hospitals, the environments are not academic, there is no emphasis on teaching, and the care can sometimes be subpar.

That said, there’s plenty of good care in community hospitals (the real world), but those can be the absolute worst environments for med students and residents. This is in large part because physicians who work in the community have chosen to do so because they are not interested in academics and teaching. Yet somehow, students and/or residents are thrown in, because hospital and/or medical school administrations think it’s a good idea.
 

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I would.

I don’t know northwell specifically, but yes.

Why?

As for community hospitals, the environments are not academic, there is no emphasis on teaching, and the care can sometimes be subpar.

That said, there’s plenty of good care in community hospitals (the real world), but those can be the absolute worst environments for med students and residents. This is in large part because physicians who work in the community have chosen to do so because they are not interested in academics and teaching. Yet somehow, students and/or residents are thrown in, because hospital and/or medical school administrations think it’s a good idea.
IIRC, A decent number of our wise SDN attending and residents have mentioned that some community hospitals have better teaching than teaching hospitals. Obviously, this will differ by dept an/or specialty.
 

doc05

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IIRC, A decent number of our wise SDN attending and residents have mentioned that some community hospitals have better teaching than teaching hospitals. Obviously, this will differ by dept an/or specialty.

Some do. Most don’t. At least the various places where I’ve been as a student, resident, and attending.
 
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doc05

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Also, are you guys sure Hofstra doesn't have teaching hospitals available for rotations in the Northwell system?, because I am pretty sure they have at least 3.

Sorry, I don’t know the northwell system
 

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Hofstra isn’t affiliated with a great hospital system.
North Shore Univ hospital is 900 bed Level 1 trauma center that does everything.

Its run more like a pvt hospital than a strict academic center
 
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Lexdiamondz

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Assuming both schools cost the same, which one would you guys pick? Stony Brook or Hofstra?
Stony Brook, for the explanation above.

The only thing I think would make me consider Hofstra is the fact that it's closer to NYC. Other than than, SB is cheaper, has more resources and better networking opportunities, has better in-house residencies, a better match list and more research going on.
 
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alphadoc28

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Also, are you guys sure Hofstra doesn't have teaching hospitals available for rotations in the Northwell system?, because I am pretty sure they have at least 3.

Current Hofstra student —you’re correct, we have 4 teaching hospitals: North Shore University Hospital, Long Island Jewish Hospital, Lenox Hill Hospital and Cohen Children’s Medical Center (free-standing children’s hospital). All 4 of these hospitals are the main clinical sites for 3rd and 4th year students. While the medical school itself is about 8 years old, these teaching hospitals have been clerkship/elective sites for students at SUNY Downstate and Einstein, so there is a long history of teaching medical students. Many of the community hospitals are also turning into tertiary care centers due to the financial investment of the Northwell Health System. As far as research, we have the Feinstein institute and an affiliation with Cold Spring Harbor Lab, which offers a wealth of opportunities for students.
 
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