Removed from undergrad lab after 3+ years

[beintizaam]

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Hi fellow SDNers,

I've been a member on SDN for several years, so I just made this extra account for the sake of anonymity regarding this topic. My questions are bolded below.

I'm currently a senior and have been/had been doing research at my undergrad lab since freshman year, and today I received from my PI an e-mail 1 hour before I usually go to lab stating that he was unsatisfied with my work this semester and couldn't foresee me continuing to work there in a productive manner. Therefore, I didn't go to lab today. The reason I've been released from working there is because I was making more mistakes (tolerable ones, due to slight negligence) this particular semester than usual, and my last mistake was kind of bad. I knew after that mistake that my chances of staying in my lab would not be very great.

I am applying this cycle (as a traditional student), so last semester my PI wrote one of my LORs, which he had said would be strong (and I'm not worried about that). Also, I contributed to a poster he presented at a national conference and am listed as an author (in AMCAS activities). I don't have my name listed on any publications, but we were planning to create and submit a manuscript for publication, of which I was going to be a secondary author, later this semester. I stated that in my AMCAS descriptions for research, so I'm wondering whether my name will still appear on that publication despite being released from the lab? I was definitely a contributor, but I'm not what will happen and if I should ask in some subtle way.

I'm going to respond to the e-mail later today, and these are the types of things I'm thinking of saying: I completely understand his decision and appreciate having been given the opportunity to do research with his lab during my undergraduate years; my data (and cursive handwriting) from previous experiments (in my notebook) is somewhat disorganized, so I'd be willing to help with any questions he would have in the future. Is this all right, and what other things should I mention? Is there anyway to mention the future publication?

I was planning on submitting an update to schools around January once the manuscript had been submitted for publication, but I don't know if this is still a viable option? Also what do I tell schools at future interviews about this situations? Would I mention this at all? I'm not sure if this is relevant, but I've received a few interviews already (one top 20 so far), 2 rejections, and I'm still waiting to hear back from 15+ schools, at least a few at which I hope to get interviews.

If you guys have any other suggestions, please let me know. I really appreciate and thank you guys in advance for your answers/suggestions!

 

[beintizaam]

EDIT: Just to clarify, I didn't really make mistakes before; it's just been worse this semester for some reason. Oh, yeah, and I am/was taking research for credits. However, he asked me to drop it for this semester. That means schools will see that I will be missing these credits when I submit my mid-year grades update in January. Will they ask about that at any potential future interviews after I submit my grades update? If so, what would I say?

Also, what's with the 5 minute editing time limit :/

 

[beintizaam]

LizzyM SOS

 

[Nena01]

I'm sorry to hear about your situation.. are you sure you can't work things out with your PI? I mean if you are just making mistakes that can be fixed, can't you offer to put in additional time to make up for it? If I were in your situation I would do anything in my power to not burn that bridge.

As far as the upcoming publication, I think it would be unethical for your PI to omit your name. The working relationship does not negate your contributions to the research.. and seeing as you already discussed your contributions with him, you should still expect to have your name on the paper.

During interviews, I would avoid bringing up the circumstances under which you left the lab. If asked about your position, I would explain that you contributed to the research over a long term and left the lab in order to pursue other interests. Basically, don't tell an interviewer that your PI asked you to leave because of your lack of committment, or the many mistakes.

Good luck with this!

 

[deleted480308]

No email...man up and go in and discuss it face to face. And you should have went in person that day as well, if only to shake hands, apologize, and thank them for the opportunity.

It's awkward but you need to show you are handling this like an adult

 

[Nena01]

No email...man up and go in and discuss it face to face. And you should have went in person that day as well, if only to shake hands, apologize, and thank them for the opportunity.

It's awkward but you need to show you are handling this like an adult

I agree...It's crucial to be mature and discuss the situation in person.

 

[beintizaam]

Well, I guess I'll leave pretty soon today to meet with him, then.

 

[NeuroNYC]

No email...man up and go in and discuss it face to face. And you should have went in person that day as well, if only to shake hands, apologize, and thank them for the opportunity.

It's awkward but you need to show you are handling this like an adult

Definitely. But make an appointment first. Don't make excuses, own your mistakes, ask for reconsideration. If there are extenuating circumstances, let him know. I agree with @Nena01, it would be unethical for your PI to omit you from the publication if you indeed contributed to it. I would not bring up the publication when you meet with him right now. You want your PI to think you met with him because you'd like to remain with the lab and you know you made mistakes but you want to do better, not because you're looking for him to help you get into med school.

 

[Microglia]

Judging from the tone of your message it sounds like a pretty serious mistake. I'm curious if it is more serious than you let on. Regardless of how serious it is, my advice is to email him back saying what you said above, and that you would like to meet him in person to go over your work as well as discuss your mistakes (like another poster above said). Mention that you understand this semester's quality of work has been subpar, and you would greatly appreciate the chance to apologize in person before you go. Don't make excuses even if you have them (unless they are extremely valid, ie diagnosed with severe crippling illness, parents died in a car crash). Handle it professionally, take the punches like Tyson, and maintain balls of steel. Then, try to actively listen to why things got so bad that the PI didn't even want to warn you before letting you go. In the end, try to finish on good terms. Like the end of any relationship, finish by telling him/her you learned a lot from the lab, and you will not forget your time there. The PI may decline a meeting, in which case just apologize and feel good knowing you tried. Best of luck!

Edit: as far as a pub goes, unfortunately you're essentially at the mercy of the PI no matter what is ethical or not. It's not a battle you can win. If you end on good enough terms, maybe they will keep you on. Good luck!

 

[DrCharlemagne]

Edit: as far as a pub goes, unfortunately you're essentially at the mercy of the PI no matter what is ethical or not. It's not a battle you can win. If you end on good enough terms, maybe they will keep you on. Good luck!

+1 Unfortunately. I know people who drafted the manuscript who got left off at the last minute for political wheeling and dealing. Research life is tough.

 

[ZuluHotel]

It sounds like you have a mature attitude about this so that is good and I think your response has the right tone of understanding and accepting responsibility. Your name should definitely be on the paper, which reflects work done and not your current relationship to the lab. We had a situation in my lab where a postdoc quit and despite very bad blood between the postdoc and our PI, there was never any question that his name would remain on the paper he had been working on. Trying to take your name off the paper would be serious and probably violate some rules, at least where I work.

No email...man up and go in and discuss it face to face. And you should have went in person that day as well, if only to shake hands, apologize, and thank them for the opportunity.

It's awkward but you need to show you are handling this like an adult

I strongly suggest that you DO write an email. In situations like this, it is important to have a paper trail documenting your appropriate behavior, just in case. You should also follow up in person, but do send the email first.

 

[Microglia]

I strongly suggest that you DO write an email. In situations like this, it is important to have a paper trail documenting your appropriate behavior, just in case. You should also follow up in person, but do send the email first.

This. Don't just drop in, that's a breach of protocol and overly aggressive.

 

[beintizaam]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! I sent a reply e-mail with your suggestions, telling him I understood/respected his decision and appreciated the opportunity to do research with him, also asking for the possibility of meeting with him to apologize and discussing my mistakes.

 

[kyamh]

I want to give you a bit of advice about picking up that publication still. I am currently a lab manager in a lab where a similar situation happened. A student left the lab before a publication came out for a project on which she put in a lot of work. She then emailed back 6 months later to ask what citation to put on her resume. Naturally, she was told that her name was not on the project and I can tell you exactly why.

She let the ball drop on what was supposed to be her responsibility. Yes, she left the lab (her own choice in this case) but it doesn't mean that she gets to drop all her responsibilities and still reap the benefits. The work she did pales in comparison to the fact that the PI and I picked up the pieces she left behind (with little documentation), created the figures, finished the text, did the submission, went through the review process and did additional analysis, and basically saw all the details (including text writing) through to the end.

The appropriate thing for her to have done was to communicate her dedication to seeing the project through. She should have communicated her desire to not leave things hanging and to finishing the things she started, even after she left the lab. Our post-doc is now finishing a paper for her old lab. Although her tenure there has ended, she doesn't expect credit on something she dropped - putting in extra work that you are not paid for or otherwise given credit for is the way to secure the publication. OP, please don't write and email asking if you are still an author. Instead, offer your services (even to just proofread the manuscript or to write out the methods) and earn your place as an author.

 

[DokterMom]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! I sent a reply e-mail with your suggestions, telling him I understood/respected his decision and appreciated the opportunity to do research with him, also asking for the possibility of meeting with him to apologize and discussing my mistakes.

Good move. And Good Luck. There should be something you can learn from this. And do take a few hours to tidy up your notes and hand them in anyway. That gesture will be remembered long after your mistake is forgotten.

 

[LizzyM]

Appreciate the shout out. You have received some good advice here. Good luck!

 

[hubriz]

I want to give you a bit of advice about picking up that publication still. I am currently a lab manager in a lab where a similar situation happened. A student left the lab before a publication came out for a project on which she put in a lot of work. She then emailed back 6 months later to ask what citation to put on her resume. Naturally, she was told that her name was not on the project and I can tell you exactly why.

She let the ball drop on what was supposed to be her responsibility. Yes, she left the lab (her own choice in this case) but it doesn't mean that she gets to drop all her responsibilities and still reap the benefits. The work she did pales in comparison to the fact that the PI and I picked up the pieces she left behind (with little documentation), created the figures, finished the text, did the submission, went through the review process and did additional analysis, and basically saw all the details (including text writing) through to the end.

The appropriate thing for her to have done was to communicate her dedication to seeing the project through. She should have communicated her desire to not leave things hanging and to finishing the things she started, even after she left the lab. Our post-doc is now finishing a paper for her old lab. Although her tenure there has ended, she doesn't expect credit on something she dropped - putting in extra work that you are not paid for or otherwise given credit for is the way to secure the publication. OP, please don't write and email asking if you are still an author. Instead, offer your services (even to just proofread the manuscript or to write out the methods) and earn your place as an author.

As a Ph.D-level biomedical scientist with 11 publications I can assure you that authorship guidelines are generally made clear by the publishing journal. Typically, if not always, agreements are signed by the corresponding author and the contributing authors attesting to their specific contributions and this agreement explicitly asks if individuals deserving credit (by their guidelines) are being excluded from the authors list. With that said, the guidelines for authorship are pretty standard even though many principal investigators choose to follow their own rules regarding authorship and acknowledgements, which is often times unethical and can be resolved by a university ombudsman, if necessary.

In plain english: If you contributed to the research project to the extent that your data is used for figures that are going to be published, you deserve authorship. Leaving a lab doesn't erase your contributions; there are many good reasons to leave a lab before a manuscript is formally accepted and this always happens. Your authorship position may (likely) change because other individual's contribution to the research and manuscript will change, as a result of your departure. Importantly, if your experiments have to be repeated and the new data is used to generate the figures that are published (and your data is excluded) you will not get credit, and you don't deserve it. Of course, there are other types of contributions that warrant authorship; i.e. designing experiments, etc., which are outlined in any authorship agreement form.

I want to add that a PI's sensitivies and any hard feelings regarding your departure do not get to have a role in determining whether past contributions warrant authorship. It is incumbent upon the PI to act professionally in these matters.

You absolutely should ask to the PI to keep you apprised of the process as long as your data is being used to draft the manuscript. It would be good practice for you to offer any assistance should the PI have a change of heart or require your assistance and to leave good contact information in the event that it happens. You should have documentation of this.

Good luck.

 

[CDI]

I want to give you a bit of advice about picking up that publication still. I am currently a lab manager in a lab where a similar situation happened. A student left the lab before a publication came out for a project on which she put in a lot of work. She then emailed back 6 months later to ask what citation to put on her resume. Naturally, she was told that her name was not on the project and I can tell you exactly why.

She let the ball drop on what was supposed to be her responsibility. Yes, she left the lab (her own choice in this case) but it doesn't mean that she gets to drop all her responsibilities and still reap the benefits. The work she did pales in comparison to the fact that the PI and I picked up the pieces she left behind (with little documentation), created the figures, finished the text, did the submission, went through the review process and did additional analysis, and basically saw all the details (including text writing) through to the end.

The appropriate thing for her to have done was to communicate her dedication to seeing the project through. She should have communicated her desire to not leave things hanging and to finishing the things she started, even after she left the lab. Our post-doc is now finishing a paper for her old lab. Although her tenure there has ended, she doesn't expect credit on something she dropped - putting in extra work that you are not paid for or otherwise given credit for is the way to secure the publication. OP, please don't write and email asking if you are still an author. Instead, offer your services (even to just proofread the manuscript or to write out the methods) and earn your place as an author.

Please let us know which lab you are a part of so we can all avoid it like the plague. I'm a clinical research fellow working in a paper mill at a much bigger institution than yours, and we include ALL our colleagues who have helped in any way, even if they have been gone for years. I'd leave your lab too if this is the appreciation you have for those who "put in a lot of work".