Reporting Step

[gamerEMdoc]

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Yeah I was REALLY hoping they'd answer that, but I had a feeling they wouldn't because I don't think they comment on individual investigations.

 

[Neopolymath]

This thread is basically an example of that one person in a middle school class who brings something up to the teacher that otherwise would go unnoticed and isn't hurting anyone (and probably isn't actually against the spirit of the rules anyways).

Congrats, folks. You potentially just made things worse for people coming after you for what has basically been a non-issue.

I really don't get why you all did that.

 

[deleted1148566]

This thread is basically an example of that one person in a middle school class who brings something up to the teacher that otherwise would go unnoticed and isn't hurting anyone (and probably isn't actually against the spirit of the rules anyways).

Congrats, folks. You potentially just made things worse for people coming after you for what has basically been a non-issue.

I really don't get why you all did that.

You think I’m the first person ever to have brought this up to the NRMP? Lol. I don’t want to be in trouble for something preventable. There’s nothing wrong with finding out what’s right.

 

[Whysoez]

You think I’m the first person ever to have brought this up to the NRMP? Lol. I don’t want to be in trouble for something preventable. There’s nothing wrong with finding out what’s right.

I agree with you, there is nothing wrong with looking after yourself and making sure you are doing the "best" thing possible to improve your chances at matching. You certainly are not the first to ask these questions, and you won't be the last.

 

[Neopolymath]

You think I’m the first person ever to have brought this up to the NRMP? Lol. I don’t want to be in trouble for something preventable. There’s nothing wrong with finding out what’s right.

I graduated from med school so I'm aware there is always someone doing something like complaining they got sent home early from an elective and messing it up for everyone else.

No, I'm sure you aren't the first but that's immaterial. Persistent, specific, and frequent attention creates a need to address something in a way that might not be favorable. Why would someone do that who has already created a suboptimal situation for themselves to match in an increasingly competitive environment by applicant numbers alone?

It's still unnecessary scrutiny given we have plenty of first hand accounts that it doesn't matter and critical thinking also tells us so.

 

[deleted1148566]

I graduated from med school so I'm aware there is always someone doing something like complaining they got sent home early from an elective and messing it up for everyone else.

No, I'm sure you aren't the first but that's immaterial. Persistent, specific, and frequent attention creates a need to address something in a way that might not be favorable. Why would someone do that who has already created a suboptimal situation for themselves to match in an increasingly competitive environment by applicant numbers alone?

It's still unnecessary scrutiny given we have plenty of first hand accounts that it doesn't matter and critical thinking also tells us so.

I wouldn't have sent an email unless there was someone else in this thread who's a program director advising that it could be a match violation. Also, if you look at my post, only 1 person has admitted to withholding steps. Not sure of where these "first hand" accounts come from. NRMP is not going to change their rules based on my email or my need for advice. As the post above, I am not the first nor the last to ask these questions.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I agree with @Neopolymath 100%. I get you're trying to find out what's right and all, but people have literally gone on to match and not get in trouble after failing USMLE for years. We bring it up every single year and people literally get the same answers every time. You can literally search previous treads and find out for yourself. Bringing to the attention of ERAS, NRMP, and PDs only create a problem that the people in charge now have to fix. Which eventually will make things worst for your fellow DOs that otherwise probably could have gone on to match in the future.

 

[Whysoez]

I graduated from med school so I'm aware there is always someone doing something like complaining they got sent home early from an elective and messing it up for everyone else.

No, I'm sure you aren't the first but that's immaterial. Persistent, specific, and frequent attention creates a need to address something in a way that might not be favorable. Why would someone do that who has already created a suboptimal situation for themselves to match in an increasingly competitive environment by applicant numbers alone?

It's still unnecessary scrutiny given we have plenty of first hand accounts that it doesn't matter and critical thinking also tells us so.

OP is allowed pay to be persistent, specific, and frequent attention since his/her future in medicine depends on this. Sure not reporting Step is "probably" okay, and there may be a 0.00000000000000001% of it backfiring, but for god's sake if OP drew the short straw of the bunch and it ends up coming back to bite them. It's okay to be paranoid when so much is riding on this decision, and yeah the PD's comment about potential violation of match isn't to be taken lightly either.

 

[deleted1148566]

I agree with @Neopolymath 100%. I get you're trying to find out what's right and all., but people have litterally gone on to match and not get in trouble after failing USMLE for years. We bring it up every single year and people literally get the same answers every time. You can literally search previous tread and find out for yourself. Bringing to the attention of ERAS, NRMP, and PDs only create a problem that the people in charge now have to fix. Which eventually will make things worst for your fellow DOs that otherwise probably could have gone on to match in the future.

I get that people have gone onto match. But you don't know whether they have had a violation and have been terminated shortly after or not, hence why I even made this post. If there is anyone who you should be talking to, it should be the PD who has been on here telling us about the potential of the match violation. Again, you only know that I emailed them because I made this post. I'm sure countless others email them all the time with the same questions since we have so much on the line

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Without even knowing any first hand account, I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that no program has dismissed anyone because they didn't report step 1 or 2.

 

[deleted1148566]

Without even knowing any first hand account, I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that no program has dismissed anyone because they didn't report step 1 or 2.

And I would hope you are right

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

Looking at the performance data from 2021, only 56 DOs who failed retook the test. Over 300 people failed. I am assuming the people who did not retake, did not report the test. It doesnt make sense to report the test if you never passed.

 

[Whysoez]

Without even knowing any first hand account, I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that no program has dismissed anyone because they didn't report step 1 or 2.

Sure...
Then again, what hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't ever happen.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Alright, just report your step 1 failure then OP. Please come back and let us know how that turns out. It may help us know once and for all. Maybe less people will post about this once we know.

 

[deleted1148566]

Alright, just report your step 1 failure then OP. Please come back and let us know how that turns out. It may help us know once and for all. Maybe less people will post about this once we know.

I will and i'll probably be taking the test again even if I have to take a year off after the match 🙂

 

[Ho0v-man]

Please don’t report your step 1. I respect the opinion of gamerEMdoc and contributions from people in such positions make this site great.

However, my (and most people’s) interpretation of this NRMP policy is that the step 1 failure is not “pertinent” to ranking you. If you get interviews without a step score, clearly they don’t require it.

What you’re doing is setting yourself up to get screened out by program coordinators who throw out every app with a board failure because they don’t know it’s optional for DOs.

 

[Neopolymath]

OP is allowed pay to be persistent, specific, and frequent attention since his/her future in medicine depends on this. Sure not reporting Step is "probably" okay, and there may be a 0.00000000000000001% of it backfiring, but for god's sake if OP drew the short straw of the bunch and it ends up coming back to bite them. It's okay to be paranoid when so much is riding on this decision, and yeah the PD's comment about potential violation of match isn't to be taken lightly either.

You keep talking about a tiny percentage. Here's a meaningful worry: OP puts his failure on there and fails to match.

You are arguing the chance of getting struck by lightning and I'm arguing that it might rain this week. Not even the same league of probabilities. This is such a disingenuous post.

 

[Neopolymath]

I wouldn't have sent an email unless there was someone else in this thread who's a program director advising that it could be a match violation. Also, if you look at my post, only 1 person has admitted to withholding steps. Not sure of where these "first hand" accounts come from. NRMP is not going to change their rules based on my email or my need for advice. As the post above, I am not the first nor the last to ask these questions.

Have you tried the search feature and or other areas of real life outside SDN? I'm not being condescending.

Also. If you have met any PDs you would know that some random PDs opinion isn't worth more than anyone else's on a lot of matters lol. Just wait until you interact with a lot of them.

 

[deleted1148566]

Have you tried the search feature and or other areas of real life outside SDN? I'm not being condescending.

Also. If you have met any PDs you would know that some random PDs opinion isn't worth more than anyone else's on a lot of matters lol. Just wait until you interact with a lot of them.

I have.

Well the one organization that is in charge of the match says it’s a violation and that’s who I’m listening to. Not some random PD’s opinion.

 

[Whysoez]

You keep talking about a tiny percentage. Here's a meaningful worry: OP puts his failure on there and fails to match.

You are arguing the chance of getting struck by lightning and I'm arguing that it might rain this week. Not even the same league of probabilities. This is such a disingenuous post.

OP puts his failure on there and fails to match then it is due to his/her failure of STEP 1. OP not reporting STEP 1 and being found out = fail to match, now that's because he/she is trying to hide something which eventually leads to dismissal/failure to match. The moment he/she failed STEP 1, there is already a pathway to failure to match, now you either own up to it and fail to match, or you try to hide then fail to match. Sure the probability of the two is vastly different, but then it is up to OP to choose which hill to die on.

 

[deleted1148566]

OP puts his failure on there and fails to match then it is due to his/her failure of STEP 1. OP not reporting STEP 1 and being found out = fail to match, now that's because he/she is trying to hide something which eventually leads to dismissal/failure to match. The moment he/she failed STEP 1, there is already a pathway to failure to match, now you either own up to it and fail to match, or you try to hide then fail to match. Sure the probability of the two is vastly different, but then it is up to OP to choose which hill to die on.

its not that bleak bud, ill just take the exam again

 

[Whysoez]

its not that bleak bud, ill just take the exam again

Yeah, I know it isn't. Also if you decide not to report Step 1, you can't report Step 2 either, and who knows how that will affect you in the 2024 match. A pass in Step 1 retake and a good Step 2 score might just be the redemption you need.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

If you take the exam again and fail again, what then OP? Are you going to report 2 board failures on ERAS? Just wondering? You've failed the exam before, what makes you think you won't fail again. Not that I'm doubting you can do it, just making sure you consider all the possibilities.

 

[deleted1148566]

If you take the exam again and fail again, what then OP? Are you going to report 2 board failures on ERAS? Just wondering? You've failed the exam before, what makes you think you won't fail again. Not that I'm doubting you can do it, just making sure you consider all the possibilities.

quite a negative attitude. Obviously I won't go in with such an attitude. But if I can't pass such an exam on the 2nd try, could just mean I am not cut out for this

 

[Whysoez]

If you take the exam again and fail again, what then OP? Are you going to report 2 board failures on ERAS? Just wondering? You've failed the exam before, what makes you think you won't fail again. Not that I'm doubting you can do it, just making sure you consider all the possibilities.

And yet the possibility of being dismissed/failing to match due to not reporting Step 1 seems to elude you.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

And yet the possibility of being dismissed/failing to match due to not reporting Step 1 seems to elude you.

I don't think you get any of what we've been saying. The probability of a program that invites OP for an interview and then ranks him to match with only Level 1 and 2 caring about the USMLE exams is close to zero. Also, once you're in residency, no one is out there to get you, no one is rooting for your failure/dismissal because that looks bad for a program to begin with, no one is out there asking you what your step scores were. I have to also assume no one is stupid enough to not report a step 1 failure and go on to brag about it to their residents and PD/PC. Last year, I reported step 1 and no step 2 (didn't end up taking it) during match, no one ever asked me if I took step 2 or not (not even once). And since you're wondering, the reason I asked that question is because OP so adamant on reporting even if he fails, so just wondering if he's also going to reports 2 failures while he's at it?

 

[Whysoez]

I don't think you get any of what we've been saying. The probability of a program that invites OP for an interview and then ranks him to match with only Level 1 and 2 caring about the USMLE exams is close to zero. Also, once you're in residency, no one is out there to get you, no one is rooting for your failure/dismissal because that looks bad for a program to begin with, no one is out there asking you what your step scores were. I have to also assume no one is stupid enough to not report a step 1 failure and go on to brag about it to their residents and PD/PC. Last year, I reported step 1 and no step 2 (didn't end up taking it) during match, no one ever asked me if I took step 2 or not (not even once). And since you're wondering, the reason I asked that question is because OP so adamant on reporting even if he fails, so just wondering if he's also going to reports 2 failures while he's at it?

Sure enough not reporting Step 1 and getting interviews = the PDs do not care about USMLE. The issue is that you speak of it like you are 100% certain that's what gonna happen 100% of the time. There are 4 "no one" in your hypothetical situation, and it only takes 1 of them to turn into a "someone" to **** OP over. Also, OP has decided to retake Step 1, please don't discourage them.

 

[deleted1148566]

I don't think you get any of what we've been saying. The probability of a program that invites OP for an interview and then ranks him to match with only Level 1 and 2 caring about the USMLE exams is close to zero. Also, once you're in residency, no one is out there to get you, no one is rooting for your failure/dismissal because that looks bad for a program to begin with, no one is out there asking you what your step scores were. I have to also assume no one is stupid enough to not report a step 1 failure and go on to brag about it to their residents and PD/PC. Last year, I reported step 1 and no step 2 (didn't end up taking it) during match, no one ever asked me if I took step 2 or not (not even once). And since you're wondering, the reason I asked that question is because OP so adamant on reporting even if he fails, so just wondering if he's also going to reports 2 failures while he's at it?

I found another post of yours saying you took step 2 but failed and didn’t report it. So which one is it?

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I found another post of yours saying you took step 2 but failed and didn’t report it. So which one is it?

I failed Level 2 and did not report it until I had retaken and pass it before ranking in February. I had originally plan to take Step 2, but due to time constraints after failing Level 2, I didn't end up taking it. Look at my original thread.

 

[deleted1148566]

I failed Level 2 and did not report it until I had retaken and pass it before ranking in February. I had originally plan to take Step 2, but due to time constraints after failing Level 2, I didn't end up taking it. Look at my original thread.

Well the evidence is in fact, me. Although a slightly different scenario.

End of second year
Took Step 1 passed on first try with 204
Level 1 pass on first try with 425

September 2021
Applied Neuro, released both Step 1 and Level 1 while working on taking Step 2 and Level 2.

October 2021
Failed Level 2 on first try.

December 2021
Retook Level 2

January 2022
Passed Level 2 on second attempt
Didn't re-release my USMLE transcript due to my failed Step 2 (so only my step 1 was released to programs).

Close to rank list due date, one program of my 13 Neuro interviews asked about it, and I straight up told them I didn't pass it.

March 2022
Still matched Neuro at a great community program.

You literally say you didn’t report step 2 due to failing it

 

[DrStephenStrange]

You literally say you didn’t report step 2 due to failing it

When you report your USMLE exams whichever scores (both step 1 and 2) are available are reported at the same time. I had Step 1 and Level 1 when applications opened up, I subsequently failed Level 2 in October, and ended up retaking all the way in December, during all that I really couldn't have possibly sat for Step 2 anymore because my practice exams weren't reassuring, so I didn't really have to re-release my USMLE transcript. I got my Level 2 score close to end of January, updated my programs right before ranking opened up.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Have you tried the search feature and or other areas of real life outside SDN? I'm not being condescending.

Also. If you have met any PDs you would know that some random PDs opinion isn't worth more than anyone else's on a lot of matters lol. Just wait until you interact with a lot of them.

My "random opinion" also happens to be the opinion of the NRMP. And I've said over and over that my opinion doesn't matter. No ones does. Only the NRMPs opinion on this matters. And to them, its a violation. If caught. I've also said I think its highly unlikely anyone will get caught.

 

[Neopolymath]

I have.

Well the one organization that is in charge of the match says it’s a violation and that’s who I’m listening to. Not some random PD’s opinion.

Be sure to ask your admin how many days of a rotation you can miss during interview season and don't miss more than that either. Make sure you cancel interviews to follow this strictly.

Same line of thinking here. Some questions are just so obviously better left unasked or people will be forced to answer them per policy ( or create one) whether it's enforceable or not.

 

[deleted1148566]

Be sure to ask your admin how many days of a rotation you can miss during interview season and don't miss more than that either. Make sure you cancel interviews to follow this strictly.

Same line of thinking here. Some questions are just so obviously better left unasked or people will be forced to answer them per policy ( or create one) whether it's enforceable or not.

Its fine, No one is going creating new rules because of my email.

 

[deleted1148566]

Update: Message from Policy:

"It would be recommended that prior to interviewing or ranking a program, you request their eligibility requirements to enter training. If a program doesn’t require a specific exam and allows applicants to submit either COMPLEX or USMLE Step scores, you can provide complete, timely, and accurate information"

 

[GoSpursGo]

Update: Message from Policy:

"It would be recommended that prior to interviewing or ranking a program, you request their eligibility requirements to enter training. If a program doesn’t require a specific exam and allows applicants to submit either COMPLEX or USMLE Step scores, you can provide complete, timely, and accurate information"

@gamerEMdoc would you agree that this seems to be in conflict with the advice you received? This answer seems to take the stance that licensing exams are strictly there from an NRMP standpoint to ensure that students have passed the licensing exams to start training.

It seems to me that they probably have multiple people answering these emails, and depending on who you speak with you may get a different response.

 

[deleted1148566]

Yeah it's probably best to drop it.

@gamerEMdoc would you agree that this seems to be in conflict with the advice you received? This answer seems to take the stance that licensing exams are strictly there from an NRMP standpoint to ensure that students have passed the licensing exams to start training.

It seems to me that they probably have multiple people answering these emails, and depending on who you speak with you may get a different response.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Yeah it's probably best to drop it.

That would continue to be my advice... 🙂 You got an answer which is favorable to you so I wouldn't go looking for further clarification.

To me this just highlights how poorly worded the policy is. It may be that it is intentionally vague so that they don't have to take a firm stance one way or the other. It does create a lot of consternation among students though who then have to decide how to interpret it.

 

[deleted1148566]

thanks for everyone's help. I appreciate it.

 

[Whysoez]

@gamerEMdoc would you agree that this seems to be in conflict with the advice you received? This answer seems to take the stance that licensing exams are strictly there from an NRMP standpoint to ensure that students have passed the licensing exams to start training.

It seems to me that they probably have multiple people answering these emails, and depending on who you speak with you may get a different response.

Great, instead of confirming their policy, they just pass the torch to the PDs and say to submit whatever the PDs want.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

So frustrating that the NRMP cant answer an insanely common question about their own policy with any consistency.

 

[Whysoez]

So frustrating that the NRMP cant answer an insanely common question about their own policy with any consistency.

They basically say to do it at your own risk. Should it comes to PDs requiring Step 1 vs NRMP not requiring Step 1, NRMP probably won't back the student.

 

[Ho0v-man]

They basically say to do it at your own risk. Should it comes to PDs requiring Step 1 vs NRMP not requiring Step 1, NRMP probably won't back the student.

I think now that OP has an email saved from the NRMP that doesn’t specifically say you have to release the fail, then it’s going to be extremely difficult to consider this a match violation no matter who pushes for it.

 

[Ho0v-man]

All in all, everyone needs to stop asking about this. Seeking more clarification can only hurt applicants who already enter the match at a disadvantage.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

I will say a lot of PDs still dont even understand how comlex scoring works. When I was on interview committee back in the day, all the faculty had to ask the DOs what the score meant. "400, wow that must be really good right?". Despite having multiple prior DOs...

If you dont report it, you will probably worry about not reporting it the entire time, and that wont be very fun, lol. Plus if an interviewer asks about it, then that would be awkward. I agree that probably wouldnt be found out, but ultimately you have to do what you think is best for you, whichever direciton that is. Once you get to the interview part, make sure you shine. Come well dressed, smiling, super positive, and be social. A great impression can make people overlook things.