Update on Not Reporting Step

[TunaCheeseEgg]

I both called ERAS and emailed NBME about it. ERAS is a pretty straightforward you don’t have to report. The NBME email was interesting. They sent an email back saying “withholding all pertinent info is a match violation, including all board scores” but in the same email they said you should ask individual programs if they require USMLE and COMLEX, or if they’re just fine with COMLEX. I emailed them back and they said that if a program requires one, I can only report one, and if a program requires both, both must be reported, so the way I see this would apply to trying to report step but hide a fail manually, or failing the 2nd set and not updating the hospitals immediately . I think that first email is why a lot of osteopathic deans are requiring reporting STEP now. It seems like a clear misread on their part but IDK. I can provide screenshots of both emails if requested.

So it seems like you’re not required to report STEP attempts per NRMP and *definitely* not ERAS, but if your dean/school makes you, there’s no way out since our school can check if you report STEP (that’s not hideable from the school unlike interviews). And my guess is it wouldn’t matter if your school requires it because of an erroneous understanding of match policy since you have to follow their rules too with regards to the match.

I received no email after failing STEP so I’m hoping that my school is on team no report, but curious what yall think.

Edit: thought Id attach the images to the OP to make it easier.

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[DOVinciRobot]

It’s pretty straight forward. If you match somewhere, and they find out you failed Step and did not report it, then they have full justification to fire you on the grounds of a match violation if they are so inclined and you would have zero recourse.

That’s what the NRMP is saying. If a program considers a Step failure “pertinent information” to their ranking process then you are absolutely hosed if they ever find out to withheld that you failed.

It’s a very dangerous game honestly.

 

[TunaCheeseEgg]

Huh, I got the exact opposite message from the same emails. Guess it shows how vague it is. Here’s the emails. I put them in the OP too as well since I just noticed there’s a photo attach function.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Huh, I got the exact opposite message from the same emails. Guess it shows how vague it is. Here’s the emails. I put them in the OP too as well since I just noticed there’s a photo attach function.

No, it’s the same message. If a program considers Step important, and you match there and they subsequently find out you “withheld pertinent information” then it’s a match violation.

What they are saying is that it’s basically up to the programs to decide if they want to fire you for it or not.

 

[TunaCheeseEgg]

Yeah i see what you mean. The second email makes it clear it depends on what the residency program requires. If a program requires COMLEX only explicitly, you’re in the clear. Else, you have to ask before applying if both scores are needed. And it will be cumbersome to do that for every program I apply to, let alone how rough it will be if most programs do reply back saying all scores from taken exams required.

 

[deleted1168269]

If you match somewhere, and they find out you failed Step and did not report it, then they have full justification to fire you on the grounds of a match violation if they are so inclined and you would have zero recourse.

For a program to be willing to match someone without a Step score already means that the program itself doesn't consider Step results to be "pertinent information". On the other hand, a program that would fire someone over a match violation for not reporting a failing step score probably wouldn't even consider someone without a step score in the first place. I think this problem pretty much fixes itself.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

For a program to be willing to match someone without a Step score already means that the program itself doesn't consider Step results to be "pertinent information". On the other hand, a program that would fire someone over a match violation for not reporting a failing step score probably wouldn't even consider someone without a step score in the first place. I think this problem pretty much fixes itself.

I disagree. There is a difference between not taking Step, and having taken it and failed it.

I can pretty much guarantee that I’d you did a survey of all PDs they would unanimously consider a Step failure “pertinent information.” Even places that will take someone without a Step score

Again, it’s a very dangerous game to play. The cost of getting caught is basically your entire medical career, as a match violation prevents you from participating in the match for a period of time and your only chances of finding a residency spot lie with random FM programs I’m BFE that never fill and might be willing to overlook all of those red flags.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Programs ultimately aren’t allowed to “require” a step score anymore. They all have to accept comlex. I would just never talk about it.

It sounds like this is up to the programs to decide if this is useful information. I guess if you really wanted to cover all of your bases, you could e-mail 100+ places and ask them if step scores are required for interview and ranking and only apply to the ones that say no or it’s optional. Then you officially have a paper trail of being told this isn’t pertinent information.

Edit: obviously don’t ask if scores are required to be reported or explain that you’re asking because of a failure.

 

[TunaCheeseEgg]

it’s interesting how we have the whole opinion gambit here from “you cannot avoid reporting even if your school lets you” to “don’t report even if your school forces you”.

For me, I think if I have to report STEP to VSAS rotation application, that will be stressful as my school grants 0 days off to take step, and most of my rotations are the same way whereas if it’s not needed for VSAS, but my school makes me do it for ERAS, then I’m happy to retake it in June or July weeks before STEP and Level 2. I just need some designated days off that are 3 months or more out from today.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I have always read the "any pertinent information" clause as the NRMP's way of placing the responsibility for determining requirements onto individual programs. You're never going to get a straight answer from them about what is or is not "pertinent."

I agree, if given the information most programs would likely consider a USMLE failure "pertinent." Making this complicated is that each individual program seems to have different verbiage. The easiest situation is when a program explicitly says "COMLEX scores will be accepted in place of USMLE scores," which to me clearly reads that you can fully substitute your COMLEX transcript for USMLE. But I've also seen some say "USMLE/COMLEX scores" or even more confusingly "Your ERAS application should include ... your USMLE scores. ... COMLEX scores are accepted." In either of those situations, I could interpret that as expecting you to send a USMLE transcript if you have it or not.

From a practical standpoint, I do not see how it would ever come out unless it came from your medical school. I don't believe it should come up when applying for a state license. Furthermore, even if they did find out I highly doubt that a program would go through the trouble of filing for a match violation over this because it is a lot of work and it is time consuming to do in the first place and then to subsequently find a new resident to fill the hole. And it's fundamentally just a very mean thing to do to ruin someone's career over something that could be interpreted subjectively in different ways.

Unfortunately, there is enough ambiguity here that your medical school could likely take either interpretation as well, and being risk averse I can imagine that most deans will err on the side of having students disclose. If that is the case for your dean then it will likely wind up in your MSPE regardless, and so this is all kind of moot.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

No, it’s the same message. If a program considers Step important, and you match there and they subsequently find out you “withheld pertinent information” then it’s a match violation.

What they are saying is that it’s basically up to the programs to decide if they want to fire you for it or not.

The question is how would they?

Also how many programs are willing to lose resident man power?

 

[mbdriver]

It’s pretty straight forward. If you match somewhere, and they find out you failed Step and did not report it, then they have full justification to fire you on the grounds of a match violation if they are so inclined and you would have zero recourse.

That’s what the NRMP is saying. If a program considers a Step failure “pertinent information” to their ranking process then you are absolutely hosed if they ever find out to withheld that you failed.

It’s a very dangerous game honestly.

They would have grounds to request a match waiver and investigation from NRMP, so it wouldn't be a case of being fired on the spot. The program would have to then make the case as to why they believed the information was pertinent. The applicant would also be allowed to make their argument as to why they believed it was not pertinent. It might not be a cut-and-dry case in favor of the program, especially as so many organizations and commentaries have pointed to the fact that licensure exams were never intended to be used in the way that residency programs use them for screening applicants. The applicant could argue that the pertinent information from their board exams is that they have a pathway to licensure through COMLEX, which is in keeping with the intended purpose of the exams. I'm not saying the NRMP would necessarily side with the applicant, but I'm not sure it would be a straightforward uncontested finding in favor of the program.

 

[RapidEyeMovementLearning]

The question is how would they?

Also how many programs are willing to lose resident man power?

Yes, I talked to a lawyer well versed in NRMP affairs who represents residents and medical students for these type of things. He said that multiple colleagues and himself personally have seen applicants booted from residency programs for this sort of thing. They will find someone to fill the spot outside the match, they don't need you as much as you need them.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Yes, I talked to a lawyer well versed in NRMP affairs who represents residents and medical students for these type of things. He said that multiple colleagues and himself personally have seen applicants booted from residency programs for this sort of thing. They will find someone to fill the spot outside the match, they don't need you as much as you need them.

Would need more specifics of what “this sort of thing” means. If it’s truly a material misrepresentation of something on their application, I could understand. But I would be surprised if someone got booted just because they didn’t report step when they had comlex pass.

 

[RapidEyeMovementLearning]

I disagree. There is a difference between not taking Step, and having taken it and failed it.

I can pretty much guarantee that I’d you did a survey of all PDs they would unanimously consider a Step failure “pertinent information.” Even places that will take someone without a Step score

Again, it’s a very dangerous game to play. The cost of getting caught is basically your entire medical career, as a match violation prevents you from participating in the match for a period of time and your only chances of finding a residency spot lie with random FM programs I’m BFE that never fill and might be willing to overlook all of those red flags.

What if we only disclose the failure during the interview with PD? Omit from ERAS and the paper application.

 

[pigsinacloth]

What if we only disclose the failure during the interview with PD? Omit from ERAS and the paper application.

I would say that is probobly the worst choice you could make. I have no idea if that's a match violation or not becuase I am not that far along in my career, but you may end up interviewing at programs that ultimently wont rank you becuase of that info. So you would be 1 taking interview spots away from people, 2 wasting your time on interviews that wont get you a match, and 3 potentially missing out on interviews at programs that don't care and will rank you.

Its like if you caught a kid eating cookies out of the cookie jar and asked "did you eat the cookies" and they respond "no, i'm eating the cookies, as they pull a cookie out of their pocket."

 

[GoSpursGo]

What if we only disclose the failure during the interview with PD? Omit from ERAS and the paper application.

Agree with above. Either disclose or don't, and then stick with that choice.

Again, that may be irrelevant if this is going to show up in your MSPE.

 

[DO2015CA]

Crazy to me that any school would put this sort of thing in their MSPE. Their job is to match their students. By doing that then they shoot themselves in their foot lol. Dumb but wouldn’t put it past certain schools

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Once your in a residency program, it’s highly unlikely, I’d say impossible that the program would care/find out that you failed step and never reported it, it’s something that you have to release anyway and it’s protected by FERPA, which is why you sign that release whenever you release test scores. Unless you go around boasting that you failed step and never reported to everyone, even then idk if they’d care, as they accepted with you with your comlex score. It will definitely hinder you at traditional MD places against DO’s that have step scores, but once you match in residency, it won’t matter anymore. For state licensing it’s the same thing, you only report comlex anyways.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Crazy to me that any school would put this sort of thing in their MSPE. Their job is to match their students. By doing that then they shoot themselves in their foot lol. Dumb but wouldn’t put it past certain schools

My school made no mention of my step/comlex scores on my mspe

 

[BorntobeDO?]

It’s pretty straight forward. If you match somewhere, and they find out you failed Step and did not report it, then they have full justification to fire you on the grounds of a match violation if they are so inclined and you would have zero recourse.

That’s what the NRMP is saying. If a program considers a Step failure “pertinent information” to their ranking process then you are absolutely hosed if they ever find out to withheld that you failed.

It’s a very dangerous game honestly.

Lol no one is terminating a contract just cause of an unreported step exam that OP doesnt need to get licensed. As long as OP can show up on time and start when he is supposed to he will be fine. This isnt a drug test.