reprimanded for having too many IV's

[Tigerkeeper]

I was being reprimanded by the Head of the Med ed dept this morning for absences due to IN's. I have 8 IV's during the Med sub-I. As an IMG, I need all these IV's. I offered to come back on weekends and all holidays to make that up, I might even cancel one IV, which I hate to do.
The Head of the dept is not convinced, he wanted me to come out with a more satisfactory solutions next week.
Can any PD's (or anyone) plz help, any suggestions. Plz

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[gutonc]

I was being reprimanded by the Head of the Med ed dept this morning for absences due to IN's. I have 8 IV's during the Med sub-I. As an IMG, I need all these IV's. I offered to come back on weekends and all holidays to make that up, I might even cancel one IV, which I hate to do.
The Head of the dept is not convinced, he wanted me to come out with a more satisfactory solutions next week.
Can any PD's (or anyone) plz help, any suggestions. Plz

Kick him in the nuts?

This is one of the issues that IMGs can easily run into unfortunately. You need as many IVs as you can get. But at the same time, once your school (0r you) writes the check to your rotation site, they honestly couldn't give 2 s#!7s about you except as free labor. If you were an AMG and your rotation/clerkship director copped this kind of attitude, he'd have the Dean's office all up in his bidness before you finished pre-rounding for the day. But you're kind of on your own here. The one saving grace is that, as long as you don't fail this rotation, the grade won't really matter. Your transcript is already out there in the wild and nobody's going to ask for an updated one.

Another question worth asking is, what do your attendings think about your performance? If they're happy then you could offer that and ask them to go to bat for you. Being a subI is about learning, not about moving the meat. If you're learning and working hard (and well) while you're there, and not leaving your team hanging...f**k him. But if you're hanging on by a thread and nobody is willing to back you up then it might be worth offering to repeat 2 weeks of the rotation later.

The only "right" answer here is "don't go offshore" but that's not helpful to you. Hopefully something else above will be. And if not...go for the nuts.

 

[Top Gun]

You might try getting in touch with your school (perhaps the Dean of Clinical Studies office) and explaining the situation. That way, you can head the med ed director off before he has a chance to lodge a complaint.

 

[HelpPleaseMD]

i can certainly understand that this sucks for you... but why did you schedule your sub I during this time period? Try talking to your attending on the medicine team.

 

[rokshana]

have to agree with help there…sub i during interview season was not the best move there but that being said that does suck…i tell my 4th years that there job 4th year is to get a job for next year…the priority is to go to interviews…

can you ask him if you can do an additional 2 weeks later in the year to make up some of the time?

i did do exactly that for a nephrology elective…missed a good number of days in december because of interviews and my preceptor never once said anything negative, but i felt bad and scheduled another 2 weeks after interview season….that may work for you as well.

 

[rkaz]

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[NotAProgDirector]

I am also going to agree with the Med Ed director. Our school has a strict limit to the number of days that can be missed for any rotation. Miss more than that, you you simply don't get credit. I would be ready for the Med Ed director to send you packing. Hopefully you can do a SubI later in the year somewhere else. You signed up for a SubI, not an "Interview Elective"

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Your priority right now is to go to all of these interviews, as that is the most important thing.

I'm gonna disagree with this one. The first priority is to graduate from med school.

The OP has been put on notice by their head of medical education. Missing any more dates (or even as many as the OP has already?), potentially jeopardizes that.

 

[shiftingmirage]

Our school explicitly states we are not allowed to take time off our sub-I for interviews or CK/CS. Even electives,, we are technically allowed 2 days off, but some have wiggled their way to more. Missing 8 days would result in failure.

That's one school, but I think most schools have a similar policy. Can you withdrawal from your sub-I with a W and do it later?

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Your priority right now is to go to all of these interviews, as that is the most important thing.

However, as others have alluded to, it was not appropriate for you to schedule your sub-I during interview season and miss so many days. Sub-I's should be scheduled to be done by September (or latest October), so that applicants have time in November, December, or January for time off or lighter rotations then to accommodate all of their interviews. The whole point of a sub-I is to increase your chances of matching into that particular program that you are presenting rotating on. Going to 1 interview during that time is a bit of a risk (though most decent programs would understand) -- however doing 8 interviews during your sub-I month is crazy-talk (as that is like missing 1/3 or more of the rotation, especially if you add in time for travel and pre-interview dinners), and no wonder the department head is not pleased with you.

With all your time gone from the rotation (and the department head unhappy with you), I'd presume you have nearly killed your chances of getting into that particular program, and you might have had a better chance matching into that program without even rotating there at all. So there was no point to a sub-I, if you'd have to take so many days off. However, it's best to still go to all of your other interviews, so you don't miss out at the chance of matching to those places. Just try your best to make-up the days on weekends if you can. If not, the department head will continue to be angry, but there isn't really much you can do about it other than try to make up the time as best you can.

Sorry if I seem hard on you, OP - it's just that this situation could have been entirely avoided with a bit of planning, and reading these forums about 6 months ago when everyone was asking about how to schedule their audition rotations. You are not being reprimanded for having too many interviews as your title suggests, but rather for your improper scheduling of a sub-I in the midst of interview season when you needed this month off for interviews instead. (For future applicants, please take a lesson from this and schedule your sub-Is from July to September, so that you don't have this issue of being forced to schedule multiple interviews during your audition rotations.)

With all due respect, it's done. No need to kick the OP when he/she is down. I'm sure he/she realizes what a mistake this was. Also, a sub-I isn't always about getting into a particular program. Those can be audition rotations or sub-Is. At most schools, a sub-I is required to graduate and many students do them at their home institution, even in February or March.

 

[eastcoastdr]

Our school explicitly states we are not allowed to take time off our sub-I for interviews or CK/CS. Even electives,, we are technically allowed 2 days off, but some have wiggled their way to more. Missing 8 days would result in failure.

That's one school, but I think most schools have a similar policy. Can you withdrawal from your sub-I with a W and do it later?

Same here. When I asked to schedule my Sub-I, the med ed coordinator explicitly told me that I could not have any absences for IVs or testing and I had to email her back confirming in writing that I understood the policy before she would schedule one for me.

That sucks but did you explain to your coordinator that you made up the hours? Maybe offer to come in on a few more weekends?

 

[rkaz]

My bad. I thought this was the program director of the rotation site that he was doing his subI at (where he potentially hoped to match). I didn't realize it was his medical school director. That surely changes the situation if his school prevents him from graduating.

Disregard my prior advice as it is not relevant to your situation.

I'm gonna disagree with this one. The first priority is to graduate from med school.

The OP has been put on notice by their head of medical education. Missing any more dates (or even as many as the OP has already?), potentially jeopardizes that.

 

[inmyslumber]

Perhaps the OP can reschedule a medicine SubI later in the year...even if it means giving up vacation time.

Unless he/she obtained permission to miss these days from the rotation coordinator, the OP can not expect to miss so many days without consequence.

Good luck.

 

[Law2Doc]

Perhaps the OP can reschedule a medicine SubI later in the year...even if it means giving up vacation time.

Unless he/she obtained permission to miss these days from the rotation coordinator, the OP can not expect to miss so many days without consequence.

That seems like the obvious solution -- push the sub-I to after the match and use up an elective month now. You have to both interview and meet the requirements of graduation.

At the med school I went to there was a pretty strict policy vs absences you could have on your sub-Is. These are different than away/audition rotations btw, these are at your home program, and increasingly med schools are requiring 1-2 of these months to graduate because they result in much better prepared interns, because you know what to expect. I can't imagine passing one while trying to interview which is why at my med school we never scheduled these during the interview months. Making up on the weekend wouldn't really work where I did these.

 

[rokshana]

I am also going to agree with the Med Ed director. Our school has a strict limit to the number of days that can be missed for any rotation. Miss more than that, you you simply don't get credit. I would be ready for the Med Ed director to send you packing. Hopefully you can do a SubI later in the year somewhere else. You signed up for a SubI, not an "Interview Elective"

so doing the interview season your students just don't do rotations?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I was being reprimanded by the Head of the Med ed dept this morning for absences due to IN's. I have 8 IV's during the Med sub-I. As an IMG, I need all these IV's. I offered to come back on weekends and all holidays to make that up, I might even cancel one IV, which I hate to do.
The Head of the dept is not convinced, he wanted me to come out with a more satisfactory solutions next week.
Can any PD's (or anyone) plz help, any suggestions. Plz

I would negotiate to have the subI converted to vacation time and dropped from your schedule, then do your interviews in peace and do the subI in February, March or April.

Scheduling interviews during rotations is risky. That's why people do only 1 or at maximum 2 during electives (my school allows up to 3 days off on electives) and do not schedule subI's or core clerkships during interviews.

Also, do not schedule a clinical elective and then run off on to a bunch of interviews.

The only things you can do while interviewing is vacation or research months, and for the research you better have an understanding mentor who is OK with you making up the time on weekends, evenings, between interviews, or conducting dry research (writing papers, analyzing data) from home/while on interview.

 

[mvenus929]

so doing the interview season your students just don't do rotations?

At my school, students did their Sub-Is through like September or October (if they were going into a field for which there wasn't a sub-I available, they'd do one in a somewhat related field in the Spring), and would use research time or other low-key electives during interview season. Officially, we're allowed to miss one day per week during interview season without losing credit, but some rotations are a bit more flexible than others.

Personally, I did 3 of my interviews during rotations (so I'd miss 1-2 days per rotation across three rotations), then took two weeks off and did 2 interviews during that time, am doing a rotation where all I do is write a report (and thus don't need to actually be anywhere), during which I did another 3 interviews, and have another two weeks off in January for another 1-3 interviews. It depends a lot on your school's flexibility and availability of rotations, but it can be done.

 

[shiftingmirage]

so doing the interview season your students just don't do rotations?

Not sure how common it is, but our school offers 2 2 week on-line courses that are ideal for IV season or Step 2 studying. We also get 12 weeks of to schedule as we please, obviously, most take it during IV season.

 

[gutonc]

so doing the interview season your students just don't do rotations?

Not sure how common it is, but our school offers 2 2 week on-line courses that are ideal for IV season or Step 2 studying. We also get 12 weeks of to schedule as we please, obviously, most take it during IV season.

This is pretty typical for US MD programs. As mentioned, some will even prohibit you from doing a SubI during peak interview season (Nov - Jan). Mine didn't prohibit it but strongly discouraged it.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

so doing the interview season your students just don't do rotations?

I did a research month in November, used one of my off months in December, then did an elective in January as a TA for anatomy (which also included doing some prosections and independent study in "advanced surgical anatomy" or some such BS title).

 

[Psychotic]

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[mcl]

I have had off Nov and Dec for interviews. At my school, it is not possible to do a sub-I during the interview season (Nov to January).

I think January would be a good month to take off for interviews. I would recommend Nov and January, and maybe a lightweight elective in December for a couple of interviews at most, doing the bulk of them in the other 2 months. This is hindsight, of course, but the problem with December is that there are only 3 interview weeks available because of the XMAS / New Years holiday. I will have had only 2 interviews in December when all is said and done…playing lots of video games, though!

And October is nearly worthless for interviews, with rare regional exceptions (a few southern programs start interviews the last week of October). So if you take off any precious vacay time in October, only do it the last 2 weeks of the month, or just save your time off for Nov, Dec, Jan.

Keep in mind that some specialties tend to interview earlier than others. My program will be done before Christmas, so being available in January wouldn't help an applicant interested in coming here.

 

[mvenus929]

And October is nearly worthless for interviews, with rare regional exceptions (a few southern programs start interviews the last week of October). So if you take off any precious vacay time in October, only do it the last 2 weeks of the month, or just save your time off for Nov, Dec, Jan.

All three of the in-state programs (VA) I interviewed at had interviews in October. My first interview was the first week in October. So it's not necessarily a complete loss, but I agree in general, that if you do take time off in October, make it the last two weeks.

 

[HelpPleaseMD]

definitely depends on the program. for medicine like others have mentioned the interviews are from Nov- Jan. it is probably better to schedule the interviews in places with high probability of travel delays early in November and the interviews in warmer states later on. less travel delays = happy interviewee.

 

[organdonor]

We are explicitly told we are not allowed ANY days off from required rotations, including sub-I. During electives we are told 3 days although some rotations will give you more, especially the TA and computer style electives which are known interview season pads.

I took November off for interviews and for th birth of my daughter. Worked out great! Although I will say several interviews leeched into surrounding months due to me applying late and having limited dates left to choose from.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

The interview season, and the scheduling demands thereof, are going to vary by specialty and region.

So the lesson here is that applicants need to do their homework. Know in advance when the interviews are likely to occur (easy enough to find based on the prior year's interview dates). Know in advance your school's and particular rotation sites' absence policies. Schedule your fourth year accordingly.