requesting a second look

[canal]

I have heard of this but not quite sure how this works. Can anyone elaborate on this request

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[mauvespice]

Most places I've been to, offered a second look in Jan or close to rank order time which can be arranged by emailing the chief residents/ PCs who would then schedule a mutually convenient day for you.

 

[Nicholaus]

Does having a 2nd look at a program you're really interested in have that much of an effect/impact? In other words, does the program (i.e. PD, Residents, PC, etc.) sometimes look favorably on a 2nd look? Would one's chances of matching at that program increase by having a 2nd look?

Thanks

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Does having a 2nd look at a program you're really interested in have that much of an effect/impact? In other words, does the program (i.e. PD, Residents, PC, etc.) sometimes look favorably on a 2nd look? Would one's chances of matching at that program increase by having a 2nd look?

Thanks

From what I've heard:

Some programs encourage them. Some programs discourage them. Some programs tolerate them.

At some programs they could help your chances. At some programs they can hurt your chances. At some programs they have no impact on your chances.

 

[howelljolly]

From what I've heard:

Some programs encourage them. Some programs discourage them. Some programs tolerate them.

At some programs they could help your chances. At some programs they can hurt your chances. At some programs they have no impact on your chances.

Explain?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Explain?

A PD told me they had a guy come back for a second look and the residents unanimously decided that said guy was a tool (PD obviously didn't use those words). The candidate went from high on their rank list to off of it.

It's another chance for a program to take a look at you as well as for you to take a look at them.

 

[Hassler]

Is it ok to arrange a second look even though it's not explicitly offered to you?

 

[mauvespice]

Is it ok to arrange a second look even though it's not explicitly offered to you?

Its definitely ok to ask email/call the PC and get a sense of how welcoming they are for 2nd looks. I was surprised to see that 4/5 programs that I interviewed at so far mentioned it in the PD's wrap up talk, I didn't realize it was so rampant.

 

[mauvespice]

Does having a 2nd look at a program you're really interested in have that much of an effect/impact? In other words, does the program (i.e. PD, Residents, PC, etc.) sometimes look favorably on a 2nd look? Would one's chances of matching at that program increase by having a 2nd look?

Thanks

From my experience, the places where the PD/ associate PDs make it a point to mention it 2-3 times in their presentation, want you to take an initiative and go for a second look if you really consider them as your top (or top 3?) choice. This also lets the program know that you are going to rank them high.

Southern IM makes good points too, I guess if you could get a sense of whether they are welcoming or not with regard to 2nd looks, you would be in a better position to decide whether or not to go for it. But please do not lower your guard during the 2nd visit. They will try and make you comfortable and tell you that you would not be evaluated on your 2nd visit...but you so are. Especially if the chiefs or the PD are involved in arranging it. The 2nd look, IMHO, also helps in terms of a reinforcing your case in the event that your initial interview with them didn't go as well as anticipated.

Disclaimer: Fellow applicant/interviewee here. All of the above are simply musings, not solid facts.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Considering the expense and hassle already associated with going on one interview at most places, I can't believe they would expect most applicants to come back for a second look, even the really interested applicants. I'm also not sure how a second look will really clarify things about a program because again it's only one day where you're still with a small group of attendings and residents.

 

[mcl]

Considering the expense and hassle already associated with going on one interview at most places, I can't believe they would expect most applicants to come back for a second look, even the really interested applicants. I'm also not sure how a second look will really clarify things about a program because again it's only one day where you're still with a small group of attendings and residents.

This is exactly why my program is neutral about 2nd look visits. Come if you want to see how a clinic really runs, but don't come if you think it will affect your ranking--you've already spent a lot of money to get to us once. Plus, there are a few administrative hassles for me as the applicant would have to complete our hospital's on-line HIPAA exam in order to get access to patient-care areas, then sign a confidentiality agreement, then the attending of the day and the Instituion's DIO have to sign off.

 

[rtc]

This is exactly why my program is neutral about 2nd look visits. Come if you want to see how a clinic really runs, but don't come if you think it will affect your ranking--you've already spent a lot of money to get to us once. Plus, there are a few administrative hassles for me as the applicant would have to complete our hospital's on-line HIPAA exam in order to get access to patient-care areas, then sign a confidentiality agreement, then the attending of the day and the Instituion's DIO have to sign off.

Excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject but on a second look day are you shadowing or are you functioning as an active sub-i/resident for a day?

 

[smq123]

Excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject but on a second look day are you shadowing or are you functioning as an active sub-i/resident for a day?

Usually just shadowing. Acting like an active sub-I would require a lot more paperwork and "clearance" that ultimately wouldn't be worth it for a day long thing.

 

[howelljolly]

Excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject but on a second look day are you shadowing or are you functioning as an active sub-i/resident for a day?

Why in the world would they let you function as an intern???

 

[ResidentMD]

Why in the world would they let you function as an intern???

I would have to agree with this exclamation, but possibly the OP did not know the answer. I do agree, I think programs would not jeopardize the safety of their patients and disrupt their routine team schedules so that you would be able to function as an intern.

A few programs allow you to round with the teams on the interview day, and I think that pretty much is what is done on the second look day, along with attending morning report and noon conference.

Which also makes me wonder how to schedule second looks at programs where you have already attended rounds on your interview day

 

[howelljolly]

I would have to agree with this exclamation, but possibly the OP did not know the answer. I do agree, I think programs would not jeopardize the safety of their patients and disrupt their routine team schedules so that you would be able to function as an intern.

A few programs allow you to round with the teams on the interview day, and I think that pretty much is what is done on the second look day, along with attending morning report and noon conference.

Which also makes me wonder how to schedule second looks at programs where you have already attended rounds on your interview day

I was thinking the same thing myself.

I really have no idea of how to go about this second look business.

Im even thinking, if I tell a program "I'd like to come for a second look, and get the chance to attend noon conference, which I missed out on the last time I visited...". In actuality, I like the program, and seeing a noon-conference will not change that. But if that's my excuse to get a second audience, will they think that I am unconvinced of their didactics.....?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

So maybe let's stop this obsessiveness right here before everyone starts to feel like they need to do a second look to impress a program. Will rounding or seeing morning report/noon conference really change your opinion? I'm starting to see this second look thing being like applying to twice as many programs you need to -- once people on SDN start doing it, it starts to feel necessary.

 

[gutonc]

So maybe let's stop this obsessiveness right here before everyone starts to feel like they need to do a second look to impress a program. Will rounding or seeing morning report/noon conference really change your opinion? I'm starting to see this second look thing being like applying to twice as many programs you need to -- once people on SDN start doing it, it starts to feel necessary.

I'll offer my experience from a few years ago. I went on 16 interviews and did 3 second looks, all at my top 3 programs. I already knew they were going to be my top 3, just wasn't sure of the order. I did not meet with the PD at any of these visits, just rounded, went to conferences, and met with additional research (no clinical) faculty (I was applying for the Research Pathway). This was strictly for me, to get a better idea of the program in a less controlled atmosphere.

Do NOT do a 2nd look because you're trying to impress somebody...you won't.

Do it to get more info about a particular program and talk to the residents there...you'll probably get a one-on-one lunch with a senior or chief resident which will be a good time to talk shop.

 

[rtc]

Why in the world would they let you function as an intern???

Well, just to clarify, I was at one interview and after all the normal interview activities they showed me the clinic and had me spend some time there. I shadowed for a bit and it seemed that they would let me see patients and the like if I wanted to. I hesitated on account of the fact that I didn't have access to the EMR system, etc. On another interview I almost scrubbed in on a case, but I wasn't sure if I would be covered for such activities. So if these things were possible on an interview day I was left wondering what a second look day should entail...

 

[jbp100]

Well, just to clarify, I was at one interview and after all the normal interview activities they showed me the clinic and had me spend some time there. I shadowed for a bit and it seemed that they would let me see patients and the like if I wanted to. I hesitated on account of the fact that I didn't have access to the EMR system, etc. On another interview I almost scrubbed in on a case, but I wasn't sure if I would be covered for such activities. So if these things were possible on an interview day I was left wondering what a second look day should entail...

I can't imagine scrubbing in on a case in my interviewing suit!!!

 

[rtc]

I can't imagine scrubbing in on a case in my interviewing suit!!!

Well there are such things as paper scrubs... You'd probably want to lose the jacket though

 

[Rogue Synapse]

Some of the programs I have interviewed at have highly encouraged second looks and basically said, tongue-in-cheek, that people who do second looks never seem to fail to match...

I plan on doing second looks at my top 2 or 3 (already have the top 2 scheduled) just for my own decision-making purposes...

 

[omental caKe]

When are you doing your second looks? Is Feb too late?

thanks.

 

[Cerberus]

The place I did a second look at mentioned it during the interview. I am actually really glad I did a second look. I really liked the program I came back to see and will now have a hard time deciding to rank them #1 or #2.

 

[Winged Scapula]

When are you doing your second looks? Is Feb too late?

thanks.

Well since your rank order list is due in mid Feb (as are programs, but they may have their final ranking sessions prior to that), its cutting it close.

 

[nonbilious]

so my interviews are done.... and I am pretty sure i don't need any second looks, at this point I know as much as I'm going to- its on me.

in fact i REALLY don't want to do any, all stocked up in the bull**** department, ready to just get to work.

am I shooting myself in the foot if I don't play some kind of post-interview, prematch courting game with constant pd contacts and second look visits?

 

[gutonc]

so my interviews are done.... and I am pretty sure i don't need any second looks, at this point I know as much as I'm going to- its on me.

in fact i REALLY don't want to do any, all stocked up in the bull**** department, ready to just get to work.

am I shooting myself in the foot if I don't play some kind of post-interview, prematch courting game with constant pd contacts and second look visits?

No. Do what's right for you. You'll be fine.

 

[Treg]

What about invited, all expense paid second look visits? I didn't even know that this sort of thing existed until I received the invite for one last week. Now I feel like I am stuck. I am sick of traveling, but this place is in my top 5 and I don't want to seem not interested.

I am also wondering if this is kosher. Also, I am not trying to brag or be flamed, just curious if anyone else has experienced this or has any thoughts.

 

[Ashers]

What about invited, all expense paid second look visits? I didn't even know that this sort of thing existed until I received the invite for one last week. Now I feel like I am stuck. I am sick of traveling, but this place is in my top 5 and I don't want to seem not interested.

I am also wondering if this is kosher. Also, I am not trying to brag or be flamed, just curious if anyone else has experienced this or has any thoughts.

I had one that kind of offered that. They'd pay for your hotel and food the day of the 2nd look (breakfast at the hotel, lunch/dinner at the hospital), but they wouldn't pay for your travel.

I didn't take that one. I did one at a program I really liked.

 

[GmailQueen]

For programs that are asking what you'd like to do during your second look, what are people requesting? Go on rounds, attend didactics if available, meet with certain people if you have particular interests and didn't meet with them during your interview... what else? I'd like to have additional interaction with the residents, but I'm guessing there's not something going on every day in which lots of residents would be around.

 

[glasshouse]

Hey all-
What did you say in the email to request your second looks?
Thanks!

 

[gutonc]

For programs that are asking what you'd like to do during your second look, what are people requesting? Go on rounds, attend didactics if available, meet with certain people if you have particular interests and didn't meet with them during your interview... what else? I'd like to have additional interaction with the residents, but I'm guessing there's not something going on every day in which lots of residents would be around.

At least in IM, there is usually at least one "all resident" conference daily, Morning Report, Noon didactic conference, board review, Grand Rounds, whatever. If you want to get to talk to more residents, before or after one of those would be good. You could also ask to round with multiple teams/services which would give you exposure to more residents.

 

[howelljolly]

Hey all-
What did you say in the email to request your second looks?
Thanks!

Probably the most simple of all correspondences. Depending on who youre supposed to ask...

Dear PC/Chief Resident (default - PC)

I would like to schedule a second look at the residency program

Thank you

You can also say that you are a current applicant, and you interviewed on such-and-such date. You can ask them if they have any suggestions about when would be a good day to come... grand rounds day, or whatever.

I kept it simple. They responded by asking me what day I'd like to come, and suggested that I avoid certain days. I sent an email back with 2-3 options, and they responded with a confirmed date and time.

 

[tarlovcyst]

I have heard of this but not quite sure how this works. Can anyone elaborate on this request

There have been multiple threads on this, but let me summarize what I've been telling the students and applicants.

Second looks are mainly for the applicant to distinguish two programs apart or to solidify their impression of a particular program.

Some programs encourage them, others don't mention them, and lastly, few discourage them.

Regardless of what category the program is in, second looks always convey one thing -- the applicant has high interest in that program.

aProgDirector said in another thread that anyone who comes for a second look that is likely to be ranked highly will meet with him in the end. Likewise, applicants that aren't likely to be ranked highly don't meet him in the end.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

aProgDirector said in another thread that anyone who comes for a second look that is likely to be ranked highly will meet with him in the end. Likewise, applicants that aren't likely to be ranked highly don't meet him in the end.

Don't remember exactly what I said, but actually I usually meet with everyone who comes for a second visit. Seems like the polite thing to do.

 

[howelljolly]

Somebody please tell me I'm being neurotic....

If I don't do a second look at a program which encourages them... because I'm low on cash..... will others who go on second looks overtake me on the ROL? Can I just send the program a nice email expressing interest, without saying "Im sorry I cant do a second look because I'm poor"?

 

[gutonc]

Somebody please tell me I'm being neurotic....

If I don't do a second look at a program which encourages them... because I'm low on cash..... will others who go on second looks overtake me on the ROL? Can I just send the program a nice email expressing interest, without saying "Im sorry I cant do a second look because I'm poor"?

You're just being neurotic. Using SDN as a baseline is a bad idea. The vast majority of applicants don't do 2nd looks. My advisor thought I was crazy for doing it. She also thought I was nuts for applying to programs you couldn't drive to in an evening.

 

[howelljolly]

You're just being neurotic. Using SDN as a baseline is a bad idea. The vast majority of applicants don't do 2nd looks. My advisor thought I was crazy for doing it. She also thought I was nuts for applying to programs you couldn't drive to in an evening.

thank you

 

[thedrjojo]

i used the second look more as a "im gonna be at this place for the next 5-7 years, I need to know it more than just 1 day..." and I am glad I did because you do get to see a different side of a program than the interview...

 

[MacchinaDaCaffe]

Somebody please tell me I'm being neurotic....

If I don't do a second look at a program which encourages them... because I'm low on cash..... will others who go on second looks overtake me on the ROL? Can I just send the program a nice email expressing interest, without saying "Im sorry I cant do a second look because I'm poor"?

The 2nd look is mostly for you as the applicant. It's to see things you didn't see on the interview day, i.e. spend some time on the floors, in clinic, get some more time talking to residents for the low down on the program. If it does have any impact on your rank it probably varies from place to place which is impossible to know on our side of things so just relax. You got interviews and went on them, now just sit back and let the computer algorithm work its magic

 

[tarlovcyst]

I have heard of this but not quite sure how this works. Can anyone elaborate on this request

Second looks occur on non-interview days. You usually swing by the medicine office around 8Am or so, join a team, go to morning report, attend attending rounds, go to noon conference, and then you're done for the day. I believe aPD says that anyone who ranks highly will meet with him in the end. At most programs, it is optional whether the applicant wants to meet with the PD or not and sometimes, this is just a Q&A session or more of a conversation.

Truth is that most of the time, second looks do NOT help. I hope this answers your followup question. Only at particular programs that tell you that second looks are encouraged, or tell you to come back for a 2nd look if you're serious, then that is where the second look can play a role in you moving up their rank list.

Keep in mind that not going to second look can also hurt. The obvious is that you do something stupid. But also places like Cornell or BID... many many applicants will go back for a second look. So you would lose out if you don't go back for a second time.

Hope that helps