Research as an MD without a PhD

[dm24980]

What opportunities are there for research as an MD (either with a PhD or without a PhD)?

In previous threads about this, it has sounded as if one must become a faculty member at a medical school or university to participate in medical research. What are some other types of research institutions? People have also said that running a lab makes it difficult to work for a medical practice and do research on the side. Can you do research without running your own lab?

Do you think it is feasible to work 40-50 hrs a week as a physician and to do research for 10-20 hrs a week? With a PhD? I know that one is more competitive as an applicant for a research position if he has a PhD, but are research positions that hard to come by?

Thanks in advance for all of the replies.

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[Kaustikos]

What opportunities are there for research as an MD (either with a PhD or without a PhD)?

In previous threads about this, it has sounded as if one must become a faculty member at a medical school or university to participate in medical research. What are some other types of research institutions? People have also said that running a lab makes it difficult to work for a medical practice and do research on the side. Can you do research without running your own lab?

Do you think it is feasible to work 40-50 hrs a week as a physician and to do research for 10-20 hrs a week? With a PhD? I know that one is more competitive as an applicant for a research position if he has a PhD, but are research positions that hard to come by?

Thanks in advance for all of the replies.

I know several people in my department who are physicians that also do research. They don't have their own lab, but they collaborate with the entire department I'm in (Clin Pharm). So, in short, yes you can be a physician and do research. You don't need a PhD and don't need to have your own lab. If you have a research background and an interest in pursuing research, then I don't see a problem.

 

[dm24980]

Thank you Kaustikos.

What are some other types of research institutions?

Can someone give me more details on the process of getting a PhD?
I have heard that you usually do not take many classes, but that most of your time is spent in the lab working on your thesis. What are the components of the process (classes, research/thesis, teaching)?

I've also heard that there isn't much flexibility in choosing your thesis topic, but that this can depend on the school. Besides getting experience in the lab and getting experience solving a scientific problem with the help of an advisor, what does one gain from getting a PhD (I'm not saying there isn't more to be gained; I'm simply asking.)? Could all of the skills that one would acquire in working towards a PhD be picked up after enough time working in a lab under the supervision of a PhD?

 

[NickNaylor]

Thank you Kaustikos.

What are some other types of research institutions?

Can someone give me more details on the process of getting a PhD?
I have heard that you usually do not take many classes, but that most of your time is spent in the lab working on your thesis. What are the components of the process (classes, research/thesis, teaching)?

I've also heard that there isn't much flexibility in choosing your thesis topic, but that this can depend on the school. Besides getting experience in the lab and getting experience solving a scientific problem with the help of an advisor, what does one gain from getting a PhD (I'm not saying there isn't more to be gained; I'm simply asking.)? Could all of the skills that one would acquire in working towards a PhD be picked up after enough time working in a lab under the supervision of a PhD?

Depends a lot on the school.

At UTSW, the first year is spent doing core classes and rotating through three labs. After your rotations, you're expected to choose a lab and be there the rest of the time. Second year has some more classes, but your focus is completing your qualifying exam, which basically involves picking a topic outside your proposed field, researching it, coming up with a question you would like to answer through research, and drawing up a proposal to answer the question. It's substantially more involved than what I'm making it sound.

After second year, students are in the lab full-time until they have enough data to complete their thesis.

This is all specific to UTSW of course, but I'm assuming all grad programs have the same basic structure.

 

[drizzt3117]

You don't have to be a phd to do research. My pi is a full professor, runs a lab and has more than 200 peer reviewed pubs.

 

[Kaustikos]

Depends a lot on the school.

At UTSW, the first year is spent doing core classes and rotating through three labs. After your rotations, you're expected to choose a lab and be there the rest of the time. Second year has some more classes, but your focus is completing your qualifying exam, which basically involves picking a topic outside your proposed field, researching it, coming up with a question you would like to answer through research, and drawing up a proposal to answer the question. It's substantially more involved than what I'm making it sound.

After second year, students are in the lab full-time until they have enough data to complete their thesis.

This is all specific to UTSW of course, but I'm assuming all grad programs have the same basic structure.

Yeah, a lot of programs have started to adopt this policy/practice where you take your core classes in your first year and then figure out what lab you'd want to work in. Instead of forcing you, they're opting to allow you to have some leniancy.

A sidenote, your PhD thesis does NOT define you. You can ultimately decide to pursue a career outside of your thesis. You may start out in immunology and then end up doing work in genetics.

 

[JFK90787]

At the hospital I work at, A LOT of the researchers are MDs that do no clinical work as far as I can tell. A lot of them are European too which is weird

 

[NickNaylor]

By the same token, there are also MDs who don't seldom patients. One nephrologist here at the hospital I'm working at (which is affiliated with UTSW) sees patients once a month, and that's it.

 

[Ponger]

What opportunities are there for research as an MD (either with a PhD or without a PhD)?

In previous threads about this, it has sounded as if one must become a faculty member at a medical school or university to participate in medical research. What are some other types of research institutions? People have also said that running a lab makes it difficult to work for a medical practice and do research on the side. Can you do research without running your own lab?

Do you think it is feasible to work 40-50 hrs a week as a physician and to do research for 10-20 hrs a week? With a PhD? I know that one is more competitive as an applicant for a research position if he has a PhD, but are research positions that hard to come by?

There's nothing stopping an MD from doing research, although most do some form of clinical or translational research rather than basic science. The reason for that is if your goal in life is to do basic science you could (and probably should) go the PhD route to achieve it. Clinical and translational research actually makes use of the clinical skills you learned and developed in medical school and residency.

Another reason a lot of MD onlys don't do basic science is that they usually don't have a strong enough basic science background to run those types of projects; e.g. from a grant-writing or pure execution stand point.

To answer your question about hours, those numbers may be reasonable provided that the research you do is somewhat related to the field of medicine you're in. If you're a surgeon trying to run a basic science lab on the side looking at random gene markers, it's probably not going to work out for you.

Keep in mind if you want to be the PI you'll likely never actually get to do the 'research' yourself.

 

[dm24980]

Thanks for all of the replies!

Do you have to run the lab, or can you work in a lab that someone else is running?

What does running a lab entail?

 

[surftheiop]

Thanks for all of the replies!

Do you have to run the lab, or can you work in a lab that someone else is running?

What does running a lab entail?

Getting on your knees begging the NIH for cash

 

[dm24980]

Also, could someone give some examples of translational research topics?

What other research institutions are there? Are clinical and translational research usually conducted by universities, or just basic science research?

 

[brooklynblunder]

if you are gonna basic science research 10 hours a week and every PhD faculty is doing research for about 70-100 hours a week, who's gonna have more grant funding?

you can do research with a MD but expect to invest time during residency/fellowship. you will easily get a faculty position (at least as clinical asst prof) because of your ability to bring in money. but because of your ability to bring in money through clinics, most academic centers will want you to focus on just that and won't give you much time. if you get a NIH grant they ask you to commit ~75% of your time to research, but it really comes down to your dept chair/support.

you will need to compete to prove yourself in the scientific community via grant reviews though, so expect to put in as many hours as feasibly possible if you really want that lifestyle

 

[austinap]

What opportunities are there for research as an MD (either with a PhD or without a PhD)?

In previous threads about this, it has sounded as if one must become a faculty member at a medical school or university to participate in medical research. What are some other types of research institutions? People have also said that running a lab makes it difficult to work for a medical practice and do research on the side. Can you do research without running your own lab?

Do you think it is feasible to work 40-50 hrs a week as a physician and to do research for 10-20 hrs a week? With a PhD? I know that one is more competitive as an applicant for a research position if he has a PhD, but are research positions that hard to come by?

Thanks in advance for all of the replies.

Yes, you can run a lab with only an MD, but with a few caveats. First, you'll likely end up running a significantly different lab with an MD compared to with a PhD. MDs don't typically end up with the same set of analytical skills at PhDs do, and don't have the same expertise with bench science. Thus, their research tends to be very clinically directed.

Second, if you're going to propose doing anything involving bench science, you'll almost certainly need a collaborator if only for appearances on your grant applications. Study sections (the people that review grants) are distrusting of people without a PhD proposing to do PhD-like research. You need something on your grants to alleviate those concerns.

PhD programs are much different than MD programs, and vary widely between schools. Some have very heavy course requirements, others have essentially none. Choose wisely. Also, the institution granting your degree is important, but equally important is the specific advisor you work for. You can work for a big name PI at a lesser institution, or a nobody at a top 10 program. If you're serious about going this path, I'd suggest doing some serious research into what it entails as well as the specifics of each program. It might also be worth asking if the school has any policies in place to prevent PIs form retaining grad students for ridiculous amounts of time. A PhD usually takes 4-7 years, with the median being somewhere around 5.5 years.

 

[dm24980]

So people running labs write grant proposals, grant reviews, and journal articles? Is there anything else they do (not that all of these things are not challenging and time-intensive)? What does PI stand for?

Brooklynblunder (sorry about all of these questions):
In what ways do people commit time to research during their residencies and fellowships? What opportunities do people have, and is it actually feasible to find time for research during your residency or fellowship?

What about an MD makes it easy for him or her to bring in money?

If you get an NIH grant they ask you to commit 75% of your time to research. Does this apply to PhDs and MDs? Everyone commits different amounts of time to their research, so how do they account for this?

 

[austinap]

So people running labs write grant proposals, grant reviews, and journal articles? Is there anything else they do (not that all of these things are not challenging and time-intensive)? What does PI stand for?

Brooklynblunder (sorry about all of these questions):
In what ways do people commit time to research during their residencies and fellowships? What opportunities do people have, and is it actually feasible to find time for research during your residency or fellowship?

What about an MD makes it easy for him or her to bring in money?

If you get an NIH grant they ask you to commit 75% of your time to research. Does this apply to PhDs and MDs? Everyone commits different amounts of time to their research, so how do they account for this?

PI = Principle Investigator. Basically, the head of a lab.

MDs can be attractive as faculty because they can fund themselves through their clinic hours. The rule of thumb is that anything involving patients pays significantly more than anything involving research.

Some residencies, particularly at top research institutions, actually have designated time for research in the program. It is also possible to get a PhD during residency, but I don't know the details about how that usually works.

The accounting system in time spent on grants is far from exact. However, if you invest very little of your time / resources to pursuing the aims of your grants, it is extremely unlikely that you'll be able to renew that grant. Thus, you have to go search for new sources of funding, which can be even more difficult. The key is that you need to make progress on your grants, and you simply won't do that if you only devote 10% of your time to research.

What a PI actually does varies a lot from lab to lab. New faculty often spend their time on committees, actually doing research, and writing grants. More established faculty spend their time writing grants, sitting on other committees (institutional or non, including things such as grant study sections, etc), and giving talks. Almost all science faculty have a significant teaching requirement as well. It's more than enough to fill up a 60-80 hour work week.

 

[surftheiop]

fwiw, I think MD's who both practice and do research are extremely important to biomedical research as a whole. If you just left it to PhD's alone you would end up with even more completely clinically irrelevant research than we already have.

 

[austinap]

fwiw, I think MD's who both practice and do research are extremely important to biomedical research as a whole. If you just left it to PhD's alone you would end up with even more completely clinically irrelevant research than we already have.

Sure, but not all research aims to have medical benefits. If you only see research as a means to new therapies, that's a fairly close minded worldview.

MSTP programs and translational research aim to address the specific issue you're talking about. Unfortunately, even with those programs it's pretty rare to find someone that really has a solid understanding of both basic research and medicine.

 

[dm24980]

It's worth a lot Surftheiop, thanks!

Do you have to have a faculty position to do research at a university?

You may not be able to get as much funding as a PhD that devotes all of his time to research if you only spend 10-20 hrs a week on your research, but you also won't need as much funding because you won't be doing as much research. Could an MD work in a PhD's lab for 10-20 hrs a week, not as a PI or faculty member, on his own project, at his own pace, if he were to write his own grant proposals (and have the PhD put his name on the proposals and provide guidance to the MD throughout the project) and do the research himself?

 

[Ponger]

It's worth a lot Surftheiop, thanks!

Do you have to have a faculty position to do research at a university?

You may not be able to get as much funding as a PhD that devotes all of his time to research if you only spend 10-20 hrs a week on your research, but you also won't need as much funding because you won't be doing as much research. Could an MD work in a PhD's lab for 10-20 hrs a week, not as a PI or faculty member, on his own project, at his own pace, if he were to write his own grant proposals (and have the PhD put his name on the proposals and provide guidance to the MD throughout the project) and do the research himself?

That would be incredibly unusual. Both from the researcher's side and PI's side.

People don't go through 8 years + residency to do something completely unrelated to that for 10-20 hours a week. If you do your normal MD duties for the average amount of time per week (~55hrs) then add 10-20 hours per week for research, you are looking at 10 hours days every day of the week. Not much time for anything else, much less a family.

From a PI's perspective, whats the incentive for him? Getting an MD researcher who can only work 10-20 hours a week, requires his own project (and consequently bench space), and requires the PI to secure the funding sounds like the post-doc from hell. There's just little chance you'd be able to do enough meaningful work to justify your costs and space needs, even if you worked for free. Offering to write your own grant proposals means almost nothing if you don't have any experience writing AND getting funded before.

 

[surftheiop]

That would be incredibly unusual. Both from the researcher's side and PI's side.

People don't go through 8 years + residency to do something completely unrelated to that for 10-20 hours a week. If you do your normal MD duties for the average amount of time per week (~55hrs) then add 10-20 hours per week for research, you are looking at 10 hours days every day of the week. Not much time for anything else, much less a family.

From a PI's perspective, whats the incentive for him? Getting an MD researcher who can only work 10-20 hours a week, requires his own project (and consequently bench space), and requires the PI to secure the funding sounds like the post-doc from hell. There's just little chance you'd be able to do enough meaningful work to justify your costs and space needs, even if you worked for free. Offering to write your own grant proposals means almost nothing if you don't have any experience writing AND getting funded before.

My experience is just from one med school so probably not universally applicable.

This summer I'm working with an MD who sees patients 10 hours a week and does research about 35 hours a week. The other physicians in the department range from 20% research to about 90% research. The department head is an MD/Phd and the rest of the dept is a mix of about 50/50 straight MD's and straight PhD's with a couple PharmD's thrown in.

(All of these MD's are their own PI's with their own funding, its not like they are working for someone else's lab)

Last summer I worked with an MD who saw patients 35 hours a week and does her own grant funded research about 15 hours.

 

[Abe468]

just wanted to thank the op and the responses. there was a lot of useful info in here thus far

 

[Baron Samedi]

VTC was built with a complete emphasis on research, and they don't even have an MD/PhD program. I'd imagine other schools are similar.

 

[Ponger]

My experience is just from one med school so probably not universally applicable.

This summer I'm working with an MD who sees patients 10 hours a week and does research about 35 hours a week. The other physicians in the department range from 20% research to about 90% research. The department head is an MD/Phd and the rest of the dept is a mix of about 50/50 straight MD's and straight PhD's with a couple PharmD's thrown in.

(All of these MD's are their own PI's with their own funding, its not like they are working for someone else's lab)

Last summer I worked with an MD who saw patients 35 hours a week and does her own grant funded research about 15 hours.

What kind of research do they do? If it's research that integrates well into their clinical practice I'd understand but otherwise it just seems awkward to me.

My mom is an MD who is 75% research but the research she does is very tied to her clinical work.

I guess my point to the OP is that if you want to do research it really has to be part of your career path. There really isn't just doing 10-20 hours a week of it on top of other stuff because you find it interesting.

Also, that basic science especially is something that should probably be left to the PhDs or MD/PhDs

 

[surftheiop]

What kind of research do they do? If it's research that integrates well into their clinical practice I'd understand but otherwise it just seems awkward to me.

My mom is an MD who is 75% research but the research she does is very tied to her clinical work.

I guess my point to the OP is that if you want to do research it really has to be part of your career path. There really isn't just doing 10-20 hours a week of it on top of other stuff because you find it interesting.

Also, that basic science especially is something that should probably be left to the PhDs or MD/PhDs

Yeah, it is mostly related to their clinical practice.

I agree it would be weird and inefficient to do something unrelated. I thought it was useful to mention though seeing as several pre-meds seem to forget that not all research is basic science and quite a few people make a career out of clinical research

 

[JokerMD]

you could also do research for big pharma companies (academia is not the ONLY place where research takes place)

 

[dm24980]

Once again, thanks for all of the replies!

You are welcome Abe! I am glad to hear that you found this thread useful.

It is helpful to know what's not feasible, so thanks for clarifying that.

In clinical research, do MDs come up with the medication or treatment regimen to be tested, or do they only test the efficacy of the medication or treatment regimen once it has been identified as a promising candidate through basic science research?

How does research for pharmaceutical companies differ from research at a university? Are there any other research institutions?

 

[dm24980]

I forgot to mention that I don't expect to be paid for the research I would be doing on the side.
What if I also offered to make a $10,000 donation to the lab each year?
Do you think I would then be able to work on my own project, at my own pace, with the help of the PI?

 

[surftheiop]

Once again, thanks for all of the replies!

You are welcome Abe! I am glad to hear that you found this thread useful.

It is helpful to know what's not feasible, so thanks for clarifying that.

In clinical research, do MDs come up with the medication or treatment regimen to be tested, or do they only test the efficacy of the medication or treatment regimen once it has been identified as a promising candidate through basic science research?

How does research for pharmaceutical companies differ from research at a university? Are there any other research institutions?

The NIH/CDC/etc have a bunch of researchers that aren't necessarily affiliated with a university.

 

[surftheiop]

I forgot to mention that I don't expect to be paid for the research I would be doing on the side.
What if I also offered to make a $10,000 donation to the lab each year?
Do you think I would then be able to work on my own project, at my own pace, with the help of the PI?

I'm sure this would raise red flags all around and be incredibly unorthodox. If your interested in research w/o being at a university there is no reason why you couldn't get involved in some clinical trials or something.

 

[dm24980]

It's not that I don't want to be at a university; I just don't know if I could handle all of the commitments that come with being at a university in addition to working 50 hrs a week at a private practice. It is possible that I would reduce the number of hours that I spend at my practice in order to pick up a position at a university, if that is necessary.

I'm just curious about the different ways of doing both patient care and research.

 

[Espadaleader]

Thanks for the thread!

 

[Ponger]

I forgot to mention that I don't expect to be paid for the research I would be doing on the side.
What if I also offered to make a $10,000 donation to the lab each year?
Do you think I would then be able to work on my own project, at my own pace, with the help of the PI?

It's very unlikely anyone would agree to those conditions. As surf said, offering money to the lab would be raise a lot of red flags. More than that, working at your own pace is just not how the research world works. If the lab took funding for your project, the PI is responsible for making sure the aims are met with the time frame of the grant. It's also unlikely any funding body would fund a project where the primary researcher is only working 10-20 hours a week.

Research is a tough, tough world with lots of deadlines and headaches. It's not there to be your fun little side project. If you choose to proceed with research in medicine, you'll have to become a physician-scientist, you can't just be a doctor who has a lab on the side for kicks.

I'm sure this would raise red flags all around and be incredibly unorthodox. If your interested in research w/o being at a university there is no reason why you couldn't get involved in some clinical trials or something.

Agreed.

 

[Kaustikos]

It's not that I don't want to be at a university; I just don't know if I could handle all of the commitments that come with being at a university in addition to working 50 hrs a week at a private practice. It is possible that I would reduce the number of hours that I spend at my practice in order to pick up a position at a university, if that is necessary.

I'm just curious about the different ways of doing both patient care and research.

Okay, let me clarify. A lot of people have mentioned the "bad" of doing research as an MD. True, a research institution would be hesitant to actually hire one for the amount of time they could actually devote. But we're getting into assumptions here. We're assuming that the MD HAS to meet the required clinical duties of an MD. I don't mean to deliberately remove any opinion of an MD/Med Student/Resident/etc, but I DO KNOW, for a fact, that you do have a LOT of options to pursue research in addition to doing clinical practice.

I know of two physicians (one who is finishing his residency/fellow) who have done an amazing amount of contribution to our research in our department. I don't know the specifics of it, but they both have maintained a very credible status/reputation with our department and are practicing physicians. From what I understand, they have devoted more of their time to research than clinical duties, but still devoted enough of their time to clinic duties to not deviate from the norms of an MD (That is to say, they're not physician scientists as a whole). The one who is finishing his fellowship is just returning to finishing his clinical duties to finish his fellow (correct whatever you want, it's just word of mouth during a brief conversation).

I guess my point is, that there is definitely the possibility of working at a university and filling your "commitment" as a clinical physician. But I may just be talking from a standard deviation. But it seems that I see several MDs working in my pharmacology department, doing research, while still maintaining their "requirements" as a physician.

I hope that helps...


- edit -

pharmaceuticals are ALWAYS looking to hire MDs for whatever. And they pay nice. The downside? You have to work for pharmaceuticals

 

[dm24980]

Kaustikos, do those two physicians in your department run their own labs?

 

[surftheiop]

For the OP -

I'm not sure if you know this or not, but here is a common model for how an MD does research at a university.

You get hired on at an X dollar salary. At this salary you are probably expected to do something like 90% clinical work and 10% teaching/research. Then as you get grants (either big national ones, or just grants from within the university)you can get part of your salary paid for by the grant and then can do correspondingly less clinical work for the duration of the grant.

For example, someone I worked with was doing 80% research and 20% clinical for three years because of a grant and then once the study was over went back to 20% research 80% clinical.

 

[Kaustikos]

Kaustikos, do those two physicians in your department run their own labs?

One does. The other works as part of a larger, more collaborative effort with less emphasis on running specific labs, ie teamwork. And then, of course, there's the department head who's an MD/PhD.

 

[dm24980]

No surf, I didn't know that. I didn't know they would hire you on if you could only dedicate 10% of your time to research, but I guess they expect you to get a grant and up your research pretty soon after getting hired. It's nice security as you work between grants. Nice to know, thanks.

 

[surftheiop]

No surf, I didn't know that. I didn't know they would hire you on if you could only dedicate 10% of your time to research, but I guess they expect you to get a grant and up your research pretty soon after getting hired. It's nice security as you work between grants. Nice to know, thanks.

As far as they care they don't really mind if you didn't do much research, because treating patients pays the hospitals bills.