Research during medical school

[libraryismyhome]

In undergrad, one can do research in whatever he or she is interested in.

However in med, I am aware that people do research in order to be more competitive for residency. Some people get papers out before entering med school and some do before applying for residency.

Do they do basic science research related their preferred field or clinical research?

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[DrYoda]

You can do clinical or basic, but clinical is generally easier to get pubs in.

 

[libraryismyhome]

You can do clinical or basic, but clinical is generally easier to get pubs in.

Is it possible to get a pub over the summer after the first year? In order to do this then I guess I need to be more proficient in the whole clinical research process by getting some exp during undergrad correct?

 

[DrYoda]

Is it possible to get a pub over the summer after the first year? In order to do this then I guess I need to be more proficient in the whole clinical research process by getting some exp during undergrad correct?

People do get pubs from summer research, some of them extend their time into second year to do this. Having research experience can up your productivity (if it has some similarities to your current project), but you can still get published without having prior experience. Research is also something that many med schools tend to like in an applicant, so if you're interested it's definitely worth getting some experience under your belt now.

 

[NickNaylor]

I was looking at Pritzker's applying to residency guide, and individuals that matched in more competitive specialties (derm, rad onc, plastics, etc.) had averages of ~8 pubs/abstracts/posters when they applied. Is it really feasible to get that many pubs if you're not a MD/PhD? Even if you take a year off for research, I'm struggling to figure out how you could pump that much work out.

 

[rhesuspieces]

I was looking at Pritzker's applying to residency guide, and individuals that matched in more competitive specialties (derm, rad onc, plastics, etc.) had averages of ~8 pubs/abstracts/posters when they applied. Is it really feasible to get that many pubs if you're not a MD/PhD? Even if you take a year off for research, I'm struggling to figure out how you could pump that much work out.

whaaaaaaaaat?! I can't even imagine the volume of research you'd need to do to even get 8 posters, not to mention 8 pubs! Even if you consider that each research project may product one poster, one abstract, and ultimately one pub, that's still something like three research projects seen through to completion by the time you apply for residency. Wow.

 

[ddalgi]

I was looking at Pritzker's applying to residency guide, and individuals that matched in more competitive specialties (derm, rad onc, plastics, etc.) had averages of ~8 pubs/abstracts/posters when they applied. Is it really feasible to get that many pubs if you're not a MD/PhD? Even if you take a year off for research, I'm struggling to figure out how you could pump that much work out.

this is ridiculous. it also takes a couple of years to get something published after submission.

 

[Suncrusher]

It's ridiculous, I agree. I think most of those students probably had 2 posters and a pub from undergrad, but still...

 

[NZT48]

had averages of ~8 pubs/abstracts/posters when they applied.

Yeah that's a pretty ridiculous number. I know clinical research is usually faster to publish than basic science/translational stuff, but 8 still seems out of reach unless you have a really productive extra year of research.

 

[DoctwoB]

Most people will have fewer then 8 posters/pubs/presentations, even in competitive specialties.

That being said, 5-6 is really not as ridiculous as it seems, as publications in the NRMP report = publications, posters, and abstracts.

Say your summer research puts out a paper. You then submit those results as an abstract to a national conference, and maybe present a poster there. There, you just got three. Then during third year or a research elective you help a resident with a chart review study and put out a case report or two. There's your 5-6 publications. You may not be first author on all of them, and they're not going to be nature papers, but you'll get your publications.

Likewise, you could work for 3 years on/off in a basic science lab and get a really good basic science paper out of it. You might not have multiple pubs, but that 1 high impact basic science article will be strongly taken into account.

Residencies just want to see that you will be involved in research throughout your career and are likely to go into academic medicine.

 

[mmmcdowe]

whaaaaaaaaat?! I can't even imagine the volume of research you'd need to do to even get 8 posters, not to mention 8 pubs! Even if you consider that each research project may product one poster, one abstract, and ultimately one pub, that's still something like three research projects seen through to completion by the time you apply for residency. Wow.

It isn't as much as it sounds.

1 pub can probably make 2 posters and a talk as well. So basically, two pubs gets you 8 pubs/abstracts/posters. From my pre-clinical work I ended up with more than that.

 

[drizzt3117]

It isn't as much as it sounds.

1 pub can probably make 2 posters and a talk as well. So basically, two pubs gets you 8 pubs/abstracts/posters. From my pre-clinical work I ended up with more than that.

Maybe, depends on a number of factors, keep in mind that different conferences have different guidelines regarding previously published data and first right of manuscript submission.

As far as the other q, it's def possible. I've published 11 papers and given 16 talks thru the first 3 years of med school, I've spent a lot more time doing research than most med students but you can definitely do it.

 

[synthase]

this is ridiculous. it also takes a couple of years to get something published after submission.

Simply not true. After a manuscript is submitted it can take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months to be accepted and then published in an upcoming issue (not necessarily the next issue). Definitely not years...

 

[Pons Asinorum]

It isn't as much as it sounds.

1 pub can probably make 2 posters and a talk as well. So basically, two pubs gets you 8 pubs/abstracts/posters. From my pre-clinical work I ended up with more than that.

Nick - this, plus a lot of those numbers is stuff where they're 6th of 10 authors or cohort studies or chart reviews or case reviews, etc, etc. You get the idea. Change your concept of what a "paper" is, and the numbers start to get less daunting. I freaked out the first time I noticed the same correlation.

 

[NickNaylor]

Nick - this, plus a lot of those numbers is stuff where they're 6th of 10 authors or cohort studies or chart reviews or case reviews, etc, etc. You get the idea. Change your concept of what a "paper" is, and the numbers start to get less daunting. I freaked out the first time I noticed the same correlation.

I figured they weren't all pubs, but unless these opportunities are just EVERYWHERE even 5-6 posters would be a daunting task in my view. But I really have no idea about what all is involved with clinical research.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

I figured they weren't all pubs, but unless these opportunities are just EVERYWHERE even 5-6 posters would be a daunting task in my view. But I really have no idea about what all is involved with clinical research.

I'm not trying to infer that you haven't seen this, but it would seem that following the info here:
http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/md/curriculum/scholardiscovery.shtml

and getting involved with a specialty-specific interest group and getting a few posters of cases or chart reviews at that group's various meetings/junkets that you'll be in good shape. That summer between MS1 and MS2 is gold for getting 2-4 of those CV bullets under your belt. You don't seem like the "summer after MS1 is for travelling through Europe and reading Mailer" type; I could be wrong though.

 

[drizzt3117]

The example you cited counts as 2 research experiences, not 3.

If you submit an abstract and then present it, that's one research experience. If you then submit a paper and it's accepted and in press, that's two.

In order to get credit for an abstract alone, you need to be on a poster/paper but not be the presenter.

Most people will have fewer then 8 posters/pubs/presentations, even in competitive specialties.

That being said, 5-6 is really not as ridiculous as it seems, as publications in the NRMP report = publications, posters, and abstracts.

Say your summer research puts out a paper. You then submit those results as an abstract to a national conference, and maybe present a poster there. There, you just got three. Then during third year or a research elective you help a resident with a chart review study and put out a case report or two. There's your 5-6 publications. You may not be first author on all of them, and they're not going to be nature papers, but you'll get your publications.

Likewise, you could work for 3 years on/off in a basic science lab and get a really good basic science paper out of it. You might not have multiple pubs, but that 1 high impact basic science article will be strongly taken into account.

Residencies just want to see that you will be involved in research throughout your career and are likely to go into academic medicine.

 

[Frazier]

So I wonder...

For these "8 publications", could they include research from outside med school (i.e. take place during undergrad/gap year)?

For example, would an abstract/poster presentation at an entomology conference remain relevant enough to count towards the "8"? Or would the residency directors filter these out?

 

[drizzt3117]

I mean, it's all relative. I think in general everything counts but research in your specific field counts the most.

So I wonder...

For these "8 publications", could they include research from outside med school (i.e. take place during undergrad/gap year)?

For example, would a poster presentation at an entomology conference remain relevant enough to count towards the "8"? Or would the residency directors filter these out?

 

[Frazier]

I mean, it's all relative. I think in general everything counts but research in your specific field counts the most.

Fo' Shizzle Drizzle.

 

[NickNaylor]

I'm not trying to infer that you haven't seen this, but it would seem that following the info here:
http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/md/curriculum/scholardiscovery.shtml

and getting involved with a specialty-specific interest group and getting a few posters of cases or chart reviews at that group's various meetings/junkets that you'll be in good shape. That summer between MS1 and MS2 is gold for getting 2-4 of those CV bullets under your belt. You don't seem like the "summer after MS1 is for travelling through Europe and reading Mailer" type; I could be wrong though.

Oh I plan on doing summer research. But as an undergrad I also did summer research, and over the course of two summers I managed to get listed on a pub - and that was only because I lucked out and the project I was working on was in its final phases. That's the experience that I have in mind and what is causing me to balk at the idea that people are getting multiple pubs strictly by summer/part time experiences.

 

[drizzt3117]

Oh I plan on doing summer research. But as an undergrad I also did summer research, and over the course of two summers I managed to get listed on a pub - and that was only because I lucked out and the project I was working on was in its final phases. That's the experience that I have in mind and what is causing me to balk at the idea that people are getting multiple pubs strictly by summer/part time experiences.

You have to find a supportive PI and take initiative. Im running a bunch of diff projects with different grad students, post-docs, and basic scientists. Med students have a combination of clinical knowledge and time that makes them valuable for translational projects.

 

[Hammergin]

It's pretty crazy how pubs can differ. I'm doing basic research for the year and will certainly be an author on the paper, but it won't be done for at least another 6 months, and the projects been going on for over 2 years. Meanwhile, a friend already has 5 publications this year doing retrospective studies. You can really bang out some types of clinical papers.

Oh I plan on doing summer research. But as an undergrad I also did summer research, and over the course of two summers I managed to get listed on a pub - and that was only because I lucked out and the project I was working on was in its final phases. That's the experience that I have in mind and what is causing me to balk at the idea that people are getting multiple pubs strictly by summer/part time experiences.

 

[b-real]

The example you cited counts as 2 research experiences, not 3.

If you submit an abstract and then present it, that's one research experience. If you then submit a paper and it's accepted and in press, that's two.

In order to get credit for an abstract alone, you need to be on a poster/paper but not be the presenter.

Can you explain how a submitted/accepted paper counts as 2? I've got 3 pubs and a poster. This would be 7?

 

[drizzt3117]

Can you explain how a submitted/accepted paper counts as 2? I've got 3 pubs and a poster. This would be 7?

If you submit an abstract and it's accepted, it's one, whether or not you present it. If you subsequently submit a paper on the same data that's another one, 1+1=2

In your case 3+1=4

 

[Frazier]

EDIT: ^^^ beat me to it.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

It's pretty crazy how pubs can differ. I'm doing basic research for the year and will certainly be an author on the paper, but it won't be done for at least another 6 months, and the projects been going on for over 2 years. Meanwhile, a friend already has 5 publications this year doing retrospective studies. You can really bang out some types of clinical papers.

That seems to really be the big difference. Basic science work is generally very time consuming. While I haven't done retrospective work yet, based on friends' experiences, it seems much less time consuming than the bench work I've been doing. So, if you're willing to put in the time/effort, I can definitely see med students cranking out several retrospective studies.

 

[MCAT guy]

Looked it up out of curiosity (2009): Number of Abstracts, Presentations, and Publications

Derm: Median was around 4.
Plastics: 80%+ 5+
Rad Onc: 80%+ 5+
Oto: 33% 5+
Ortho: 20% 5+
FM: 2% 5+

 

[MCAT guy]

and getting involved with a specialty-specific interest group and getting a few posters of cases or chart reviews at that group's various meetings/junkets that you'll be in good shape. That summer between MS1 and MS2 is gold for getting 2-4 of those CV bullets under your belt. You don't seem like the "summer after MS1 is for travelling through Europe and reading Mailer" type; I could be wrong though.

I thought everyone does that during summer.

 

[Frazier]

Looked it up out of curiosity (2009): Number of Abstracts, Presentations, and Publications

Derm: Median was around 4.
Plastics: 80%+ 5+
Rad Onc: 80%+ 5+
Oto: 33% 5+
Ortho: 20% 5+
FM: 2% 5+

FM: At the forefront of groundbreaking research.

 

[MCAT guy]

That seems to really be the big difference. Basic science work is generally very time consuming. While I haven't done retrospective work yet, based on friends' experiences, it seems much less time consuming than the bench work I've been doing. So, if you're willing to put in the time/effort, I can definitely see med students cranking out several retrospective studies.

From my understanding, it is like anything else in these applications.

The amount of research isn't nearly as important as the quality of it, and how well you can translate it in an interview or on paper. Better to have 3 quality items to add that you can speak intelligently about than a dozen just to fill up your CV.

 

[MCAT guy]

FM: At the forefront of groundbreaking research.

FM was put in there solely for contrast purposes.

 

[libraryismyhome]

During my second gap year, I want to engage in a clinical research activity. How do I find it? I will start at once starting this June while applying.

I contacted Institute on Aging Clinical Unit in my hometown and junior faculties there were telling me that one project would take at least 2 years and I would be spending the first 4 months just learning the procedure and filing. So this sounds a lot different than this thread.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

FM: At the forefront of groundbreaking research.

Edited to prevent flaming.

 

[JokerMD]

sdf

 

[drizzt3117]

publishing in basic science is close to impossible unless you get an easy-going PI

clinical is the way to go

(unless you are mstp)

Not true, all my pubs are basic science or translational.

 

[glasshalfMD]

just a personal anecdote:

I took two years off (well, I'm nearing the end of year 2) after undergrad, and I am starting medical school in the fall. during these two years, I have been working in clinical research. I've accrued the following in 23 months:

-first author on 2 abstract/posters
-second author on 1 abstract/poster
-third author on 2 abstract/posters and 1 presentation
-first author on 1 manuscript (under review)
-second author on 1 manuscript (under review)
-third author on a Science brevia (under review)
-won a travel award to attend a conference

now, granted, these papers that are currently under review may not come to fruition... and I have certainly worked my tush off for these other items... but I'm just trying to show that it is possible. I have 6 poster/abstract/presentations and I assume at least one of these papers will eventually be published. anyway, I hope this puts it into perspective! I plan on coming back to my current dept during the summer between first and second year and hopefully writing something else up. woo hooo for padding the CV, even if it is a crapload of work. just find something you find interesting and you'll find yourself wanting to write about it - luck to all!

EDIT: just wanted to note that all of my work is in the neuroimaging/hearing loss field and is prospective (so you don't just have to seek out retrospective reviews to get pubs out there rather quickly)

 

[DoctwoB]

The example you cited counts as 2 research experiences, not 3.

If you submit an abstract and then present it, that's one research experience. If you then submit a paper and it's accepted and in press, that's two.

In order to get credit for an abstract alone, you need to be on a poster/paper but not be the presenter.

I wasn't talking about "research experiences." I was talking about publications.

 

[Frazier]

just a personal anecdote:

I took two years off (well, I'm nearing the end of year 2) after undergrad, and I am starting medical school in the fall. during these two years, I have been working in clinical research. I've accrued the following in 23 months:

-first author on 2 abstract/posters
-second author on 1 abstract/poster
-third author on 2 abstract/posters and 1 presentation
-first author on 1 manuscript (under review)
-second author on 1 manuscript (under review)
-third author on a Science brevia (under review)
-won a travel award to attend a conference

now, granted, these papers that are currently under review may not come to fruition... and I have certainly worked my tush off for these other items... but I'm just trying to show that it is possible. I have 6 poster/abstract/presentations and I assume at least one of these papers will eventually be published. anyway, I hope this puts it into perspective! I plan on coming back to my current dept during the summer between first and second year and hopefully writing something else up. woo hooo for padding the CV, even if it is a crapload of work. just find something you find interesting and you'll find yourself wanting to write about it - luck to all!

Impressive!