Research With Faculty

[drsnowflake]

I recently reached out to several faculty from my school about research opportunities for this summer. I got responses from a few of them. I know that I am going to have to choose one project and decline all other offers, but I want to find the most polite and appropriate ways to do so as I do not want to burn any bridges.

1) In terms of competitiveness for residency applications, does it matter whether your research is with an MD or a PhD? Additionally, if the faculty is part of the residency program that you are interested in, is it beneficial to be involved with their projects?

2) Once I've chosen a project, how can I politely tell the others that I'm no longer available? Should I still meet with them to discuss the opportunities they have available even if I know I'm joining another project, or is this considered rude and a waste of their time?

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[Osteoth]

1) Doesn't necessarily matter but doing clinical research with an MD will allow you to (theoretically) get more quick publications out, which is advantageous compared to a possible large publication that may or may not come out by the time you graduate if you work with a PhD.

It is always useful to work with faculty in the specialty you are interested in.

2) "Hey Dr. X, sorry but I actually took another position that I feel might be a better fit. Thank you for taking the time to email me back and I hope I'll be able to work with you in the future or come in and shadow.

Thanks,

Osteoth"

If you know 100% you're going to take another position don't waste their or your own time.

 

[NickNaylor]

My general advise is that, all things being equal (and they never are), ability to get tangible products from your research >>> other considerations. No one will care if your PI is an MD vs. MD/PhD vs. PhD; it’s just not relevant. Being able to list published abstracts/poster presentations/lectures/manuscripts is the key, as you can point to these as actual products for your work rather than simply saying “I did some research.”

 

[Anti-PD1]

My general advise is that, all things being equal (and they never are), ability to get tangible products from your research >>> other considerations. No one will care if your PI is an MD vs. MD/PhD vs. PhD; it’s just not relevant. Being able to list published abstracts/poster presentations/lectures/manuscripts is the key, as you can point to these as actual products for your work rather than simply saying “I did some research.”

This is so true. After all the stressing over pubs, and making sure they're listed right in ERAS, it came down to the interviewers looking at how many entries there were.

 

[Osteoth]

This is so true. After all the stressing over pubs, and making sure they're listed right in ERAS, it came down to the interviewers looking at how many entries there were.

That being said if you had 40 abstracts but no manuscripts how do you think that goes over?

 

[Anti-PD1]

That being said if you had 40 abstracts but no manuscripts how do you think that goes over?

Real pubs, real science, trumps everything.

 

[Osteoth]

Real pubs, real science, trumps everything.

Of course, but what I meant was if you had 40 abstracts/posters vs. 3 manuscripts of various authorship levels.

 

[DNC127]

Of course, but what I meant was if you had 40 abstracts/posters vs. 3 manuscripts of various authorship levels.

3 manuscripts. Posters / abstracts are fairly easy to get. Peer reviewed publication in a reputable journal is much more time consuming and difficult.

 

[Frogger27]

3 manuscripts. Posters / abstracts are fairly easy to get. Peer reviewed publication in a reputable journal is much more time consuming and difficult.

Agreed. Although I have seen people get added onto publications with pretty minimal work, but at least someone thought highly enough of them to throw their name on a publication lol. That's gotta count for something I guess..... as is life.

 

[Osteoth]

3 manuscripts. Posters / abstracts are fairly easy to get. Peer reviewed publication in a reputable journal is much more time consuming and difficult.

Agreed. Although I have seen people get added onto publications with pretty minimal work, but at least someone thought highly enough of them to throw their name on a publication lol. That's gotta count for something I guess..... as is life.

I agree. The next logical question I have is when research is reported on a specialty-by-specialty basis, what percent of the "Abstracts, Presentations and Publications" section on there are manuscripts? Obviously they look better but I wonder how many students actually get their name on them.

 

[Frogger27]

I agree. The next logical question I have is when research is reported on a specialty-by-specialty basis, what percent of the "Abstracts, Presentations and Publications" section on there are manuscripts? Obviously they look better but I wonder how many students actually get their name on them.

I'm guessing this varies greatly. An assumption is a 1:1:1 ratio for all since the logical flow of research is abstract submission, presentation at conference and eventual publication. However, this is not how it usually works (I have had multiple abstracts for a single project that led to 0 publications and multiple publications where I had 0 abstracts for). I wouldn't get too caught up in the numbers. Honestly if you can get 1-2 publications and a couple abstracts (especially if one of these is first authors), you will have enough research to show that you are competent and can finish projects (which is the most important thing to prove in research realm as a med student).

***I am only an M1, so if anyone who is more senior/has more experience feel free to correct my assumptions

 

[Osteoth]

I'm guessing this varies greatly. An assumption is a 1:1:1 ratio for all since the logical flow of research is abstract submission, presentation at conference and eventual publication. However, this is not how it usually works (I have had multiple abstracts for a single project that led to 0 publications and multiple publications where I had 0 abstracts for). I wouldn't get too caught up in the numbers. Honestly if you can get 1-2 publications and a couple abstracts (especially if one of these is first authors), you will have enough research to show that you are competent and can finish projects (which is the most important thing to prove in research realm as a med student).

***I am only an M1, so if anyone who is more senior/has more experience feel free to correct my assumptions

I'm inclined to disagree considering the stats on the 2016 Charting the Match regarding the competitive specialties.

If the average for the top 4 most competitive listed specialties is 12.425 publications, then in order to stand out in any meaningful way an applicant probably needs in the order of 30 total lines, at least in my mind.

 

[number22]

I'm inclined to disagree considering the stats on the 2016 Charting the Match regarding the competitive specialties.
View attachment 225755
If the average for the top 4 most competitive listed specialties is 12.425 publications, then in order to stand out in any meaningful way an applicant probably needs in the order of 30 total lines, at least in my mind.

That table counts abstracts and presentations as well.

 

[Osteoth]

That table counts abstracts and presentations as well.

I'm aware. The original post mentioned 2 manuscripts, 3 abstracts, and lets say for argument's sake, though it wasn't specifically mentioned, 3 presentations. You're sitting at 8, which for the top 4 most competitive specialties is below average.

 

[sammiesings]

I thought it was specialty specific whether abstracts were counted in your "number" by the PD.

 

[NickNaylor]

I thought it was specialty specific whether abstracts were counted in your "number" by the PD.

Research is research and producibles are producibles. Of course being an author on a manuscript > poster presentation > abstract, but at the end of the day any of those is better than nothing at all.

Every program is likely to approach these things somewhat differently. It's an impossible thing to speak about in generalities. With respect to the ridiculous hypothetical above of 40 abstracts vs. 3 manuscripts, I would argue that both of those applicants are in a great place in terms of what they've done from a research perspective. 40 abstracts would be insane, and that demonstrates an ability to engage in the research process and do something with it, which really is the whole point. Trying to say one is better than the other is a fool's errand - both of those situations would likely result in the candidate getting the maximum number of points (or whatever kind of evaluation system a program uses - ours uses a point-like system for various criteria) for research, thus it's a bit pointless to argue one is better than the other. Other factors would play a greater role in the applicant's evaluation then research at that point.

 

[Amba]

I'm inclined to disagree considering the stats on the 2016 Charting the Match regarding the competitive specialties.
View attachment 225755
If the average for the top 4 most competitive listed specialties is 12.425 publications, then in order to stand out in any meaningful way an applicant probably needs in the order of 30 total lines, at least in my mind.

FWIW I'm one of those people applying into a competitive specialty with a lot of research (basically double of what you defined as enough to stand out). It really hasn't done as much for me as I expected. Either I'm anomalous or there is a point of diminishing returns. I don't know the answer to that.

 

[The Physician Philosopher]

I recently reached out to several faculty from my school about research opportunities for this summer. I got responses from a few of them. I know that I am going to have to choose one project and decline all other offers, but I want to find the most polite and appropriate ways to do so as I do not want to burn any bridges.

1) In terms of competitiveness for residency applications, does it matter whether your research is with an MD or a PhD? Additionally, if the faculty is part of the residency program that you are interested in, is it beneficial to be involved with their projects?

2) Once I've chosen a project, how can I politely tell the others that I'm no longer available? Should I still meet with them to discuss the opportunities they have available even if I know I'm joining another project, or is this considered rude and a waste of their time?

The more important question is whether you've made your expectations clear (for authorship) on any of these studies to make sure your name will be on the final manuscript. There are strict guidelines for these things, and getting published matters infinitely more than which type of person you work with (MD versus PhD).

ICMJE | Recommendations | Defining the Role of Authors and Contributors

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[imtheman25]

This is so true. After all the stressing over pubs, and making sure they're listed right in ERAS, it came down to the interviewers looking at how many entries there were.

Preach!! Unfortunately a lot things revolve around ERAS. But in my experience Ph.Ds were fine as PIs (one of my Ph.D PI's made me take a shot of Patron every time he had a publication)

 

[Osteoth]

FWIW I'm one of those people applying into a competitive specialty with a lot of research (basically double of what you defined as enough to stand out). It really hasn't done as much for me as I expected. Either I'm anomalous or there is a point of diminishing returns. I don't know the answer to that.

So how has your cycle gone so far? Any other red flags on your application?

 

[Amba]

So how has your cycle gone so far? Any other red flags on your application?

Average to below average, but I'll probably match. Rest of my app is above average and no red flags.