Residency Matching

[arcin]

---

Members don't see this ad.

So although I am only a Pre-med I have a question for all the Med School students out there. I think I may want to do Neurosurgery (don't laugh yet). My aunt recently passed away (December 26, 2006) due to a brain tumor and that has made consider it even more than I already had. So here is my question, if I don't match into Neurosurgery (I know it is very competitive) is there another way to get into Neuro? I mean is this an instance where I am screwed if I don't match? Thanks for your input.

 

[MadameLULU]

Usually there is a scramble (day when all the students who don't match try to find spots at an unfilled program) for specialities. Neurosurg is an early match thru the San Francisco matching program and Im not sure if there is an actual scramble since the spots in neurosurg are fairly limited to begin with.

 

[dutchman]

.

 

[arcin]

Okay, let's say worst case scenario I don't get into my first choice match because I don't have good enough scores to get in on first try. What are my alternatives if I still want Neurosurgery, or are there any?

 

[deleted77919]

Well, the worst case is that you don't match at all, not that you don't match at your first choice program.

You could chose to go unmatched, do some research, try again in a year or two. Most people, however, match into something else through ERAS (regular matched, most specialties) following a failed SF match (early match).

 

[emtji]

Okay, let's say worst case scenario I don't get into my first choice match because I don't have good enough scores to get in on first try. What are my alternatives if I still want Neurosurgery, or are there any?

you could take a year off and do neurosurg research and try again. i could be wrong, but it's not exactly the most competitive thing on earth. the hours are hard, people aren't necessarily jumping up and down to go for NS.

 

[trudub]

you could take a year off and do neurosurg research and try again. i could be wrong, but it's not exactly the most competitive thing on earth. the hours are hard, people aren't necessarily jumping up and down to go for NS.

Actually it is highly competitive. Only about 150 spots in the country which is what makes it extremely competitive.

 

[arcin]

Is there a way to transfer from one specialty to another? Say I don't match with Neuro but I match with another one, can I keep applying after that? I am just trying to hope for the best but plan for the worst.

 

[tchantel21]

I am also interested in neurosurgery but as a mother I decided that 7-9 yrs of surgical residency wasn't really for me so I have considered interventional neuroradiology. INR mostly involves minimally invasive vascular procedures. These specialists perform many of the same procedures that vascular neurosurgeouns perform as well as an ever-growing list of procedures unique to this specialty (which is relatively new). There are 2 major routes you can take to get there:

1) The more common route is to first complete residency in diagnostic radiology, which is also highly competitive, but not quite as competitive as neurosurg. Fellowships are then completed for neurorads and interventional training. Like neurosurg its about 7 yrs of training. The good news is that this is not 7 yrs of the surgical resident lifestyle (**Disclaimer: Rads residency may be kinder, but in practice INR is just as relentless as neurosurg in the lifestyle department)

2)It is also possible to attain these fellowships after residency in neurology which is not very competitive. The trade-off is that you've got to work a bit harder to grab a spot as a fellow out of neurology. It's certainly done though and entirely possible with good planning and hard work. This may also change in the future as more and more neurologists pursue INR and neurology programs continue to push for these fellowships for their residents.

Hope this helps 🙂

 

[Law2Doc]

I think I may want to do Neurosurgery

Don't get married to a specialty as a premed. Keep an open mind and wait. You may find something you like more and you might find that neurosurgery entails a lot of things you aren't so excited about. It's fine to have leanings, but silly to worry about matching before you start.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Don't get married to a specialty as a premed. Keep an open mind and wait. You may find something you like more and you might find that neurosurgery entails a lot of things you aren't so excited about. It's fine to have leanings, but silly to worry about matching before you start.

Once again, Law2Doc has beaten me to the punch.

OP, baby steps, baby steps. Long way to go until you have to worry about matching, and I think that Law2Doc will back me up when I say that your ability to match NS will have a lot more to do with how you spend your time as a med student than right now. Believe me when I tell you that you are in no real position right now to decide on a surgical specialty. Give it some time.

 

[deuist]

i could be wrong, but it's not exactly the most competitive thing on earth.

According to Residency Web only 88% of seniors matched into neurosurgery this past year. 88% of self-selected students at that. The University of Washington states that NS is a highly competitive program. I could not locate the averages for Step I scores, but I would imagine that students who get accepted to NS have higher than a 230.

 

[deleted77919]

One more point, if there is only one specialty you can imagine being happy in, perhaps medicine isn't the best career choice. This is because either 1) you don't match and are crushed, or 2) during medical school you find you actually don't like that specialty and aren't left with anything. Either result wouldn't be good . . .

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Doctors do switch specialties and get board certified in multiple areas, but it'd be tough in Neurosurg since the residency is so long and so competitive. A bunch of different docs probably contributed to your aunt's care. Consider that you'd have the opportunity to impact the field in neurology, oncology, academic medicine, or family practice among others. You'll know by 4th year what specialty best matches your credentials and interests at the time, no use sweating it right now (no matter how many family members demand to know what kind of doc you'll be).

 

[zimmie256]

Doctors do switch specialties and get board certified in multiple areas, but it'd be tough in Neurosurg since the residency is so long and so competitive. A bunch of different docs probably contributed to your aunt's care. Consider that you'd have the opportunity to impact the field in neurology, oncology, academic medicine, or family practice among others. You'll know by 4th year what specialty best matches your credentials and interests at the time, no use sweating it right now (no matter how many family members demand to know what kind of doc you'll be).

I can no longer count how many times I've been told by assorted family members "Well you shouldn't bother going through all that work and debt of med school if you don't even know what you want to do yet." Ugh... 👎 No sympathy for the perspective that you won't REALLY know until you try it regardless of how much you contemplate now...

 

[arcin]

Thanks, I'll keep all of those things in mind. I am not dead set on Neuro but I just wanted to know the possibilities. I also know I have a long ways to go before I need to make that decision but I also wanted to know options. I am kind of like that. I appreciate everything. I may end up doing something completely different which would be okay as well. I think most importantly is that I focus on getting into Med School and go from there.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

maybe when your house burns down, you'll wanna be a firefighter then.

lemme light a match.

 

[lilnoelle]

I'm gonna hijack this thread a little.... sorry. I'm an M1 and don't know on what I want to specialize in (as most of us don't). One thing I might be interested in is Ophthalmology. I know its very competitive, and honestly, I don't think I'll be on top of my class. I may be able to pull top 25%, but I'm doubting I'll be in the top 10%. (Yes, I will try very hard, but I have two children and have to give them some of my time).
There is a local residency in ophthalmology in KC (UMKC) that is run almost exclusively by a local practice, Sabates Eye Centers. The owner of the practice is the director, and all of the doctors that work there also teach at the residency. My husband happens to work as a technician at Sabates Eye Centers and has for quite some time. I know a lot of the doctors, a few of which wrote recommendations for me for med school. I don't know the owner/director very well, but the owner/director knows and really likes my husband.
So, does something like this have the potential to help me at all, provided I perform decently in school?
I know it sounds like I'm trying to "find an easy way out," but I'm not really, as mentioned previously, ophthalmology is only one of the fields I'm interested in. My husband is all excited about the possibility of me being an ophthalmologist, I told him that he was nuts, I wouldn't be able to get into an ophthalmic residency, and he seems pretty certain that they'd take me at UMKC because of my ties. I'm guessing that something like this doesn't matter as much as the USMLE, but programs are looking for something that makes you stand out.... they want to be able to bank on your performance and knowledge, wouldn't having a lot of individuals know you personally also help them know they can trust you in their program?

 

[deuist]

Simply knowing the physicians probably will not be enough. However, using your relationship with them to start shadowing or doing research with the group would good way to build your resume. As you mentioned, ophtho is very competitive. You'll have to show residency programs that you really want to be an eye doc.

 

[arcin]

maybe when your house burns down, you'll wanna be a firefighter then.

lemme light a match.

You know if I wanted an opinion from a troll I would have put this in the Pre-Allo forum.

 

[MR1]

I'm gonna hijack this thread a little.... sorry. I'm an M1 and don't know on what I want to specialize in (as most of us don't). One thing I might be interested in is Ophthalmology. I know its very competitive, and honestly, I don't think I'll be on top of my class. I may be able to pull top 25%, but I'm doubting I'll be in the top 10%. (Yes, I will try very hard, but I have two children and have to give them some of my time).
There is a local residency in ophthalmology in KC (UMKC) that is run almost exclusively by a local practice, Sabates Eye Centers. The owner of the practice is the director, and all of the doctors that work there also teach at the residency. My husband happens to work as a technician at Sabates Eye Centers and has for quite some time. I know a lot of the doctors, a few of which wrote recommendations for me for med school. I don't know the owner/director very well, but the owner/director knows and really likes my husband.
So, does something like this have the potential to help me at all, provided I perform decently in school?
I know it sounds like I'm trying to "find an easy way out," but I'm not really, as mentioned previously, ophthalmology is only one of the fields I'm interested in. My husband is all excited about the possibility of me being an ophthalmologist, I told him that he was nuts, I wouldn't be able to get into an ophthalmic residency, and he seems pretty certain that they'd take me at UMKC because of my ties. I'm guessing that something like this doesn't matter as much as the USMLE, but programs are looking for something that makes you stand out.... they want to be able to bank on your performance and knowledge, wouldn't having a lot of individuals know you personally also help them know they can trust you in their program?

First off you might get a better answer to this in the Ophtho forum, but anyway I thought I might offer some insight, I am a M4 applying for ophtho currently. It wasn't clear to me if you have worked for the ophthalmologists there or they just know you real well thru your husband. If you haven't worked for them I would for sure get involved there as much as you can. Go in and hang out with them in clinic, see patients and once you are comfortable, see the patients yourself and present to them your findings (if this is even possible). work with the "higher ups" too, like the chair and PD. This is two fold, one they get to know you better and see your clinical skills and you get a better idea if you want to do ophtho or not.

Also try to get with a resident and help them on a research project, esp if it something that will get published. If something really crazy comes into clinic and they are going to write a case report get in on that. The main thing to do thou is get the best grades you can and kill step 1. you don't have to be top 10% but the higher the better and USMLE unfortuantly is the biggest factor in how many places offer you an interview, because alot use it as a screening tool. Past that recommendation letters are huge, grades and anything that makes you stand out helps also.

You probably do have the best chance at getting into your home program but that does vary, some programs almost never take their own for whatever reason, so you will have to apply to a lot of programs esp if your stats end up not stellar. the avg is apply to 40-50 and get 8-10 interviews for those who match I think. so if you really are wanting to stay in KC that can be difficult when applying to competitive specialities. Hope this helps answer your ?, if you decide you want to pursue ophtho I don't see why you couldn't at this point and best of luck.

so yes to answer your last point having someone know you really well helps, LOR are huge and matter alot in the small field of ophtho and you want excellent ones. So the better and longer someone knows you and has seen your work ethic the better letter they can write for you. so not only will it help you potentially get a spot in KC but it will help you get a spot anywhere.

 

[lilnoelle]

Thanks a lot! Is getting involved in research and shadowing or getting really involved in a practice such as this one in third year (once I have a better idea of what specialty I like) gonna hurt me? I suppose I could try to do a lot with them over this next summer... otherwise how do you guys find time to do this?
Oh, and this isn't my home program. I attend KU, the program is UMKC. I'm not determined to stay in KC, though I'd like to.

 

[da8s0859q]

maybe when your house burns down, you'll wanna be a firefighter then.

lemme light a match.

🙄

You know if I wanted an opinion from a troll I would have put this in the Pre-Allo forum.

 

[MR1]

Thanks a lot! Is getting involved in research and shadowing or getting really involved in a practice such as this one in third year (once I have a better idea of what specialty I like) gonna hurt me? I suppose I could try to do a lot with them over this next summer... otherwise how do you guys find time to do this?
Oh, and this isn't my home program. I attend KU, the program is UMKC. I'm not determined to stay in KC, though I'd like to.

No it won't hurt you but the early the better. Again it helps you know if that is really what you want to pursue or not. so if you decide early it is not the right path then you don't lose time doing research or other things in that field. But research in any field does look good on a CV, I had research in a different speciality and got asked about it at most of my interviews.

As far as finding time you don't have to put in a huge block of time, even if you only are there once a month for a half day it is beneficial and over time that all adds up. But if that isn't possible waiting till 3rd year isn't going to hurt you. On that note though at my school I didn't really have more time third year compared to the first two, esp year two which was my busiest.

 

[lilnoelle]

I think I'm gonna do some work with the practice over the summer. I don't have anything else planned so I just as well make good use of my time. Thanks for your help!

 

[sanche60]

So although I am only a Pre-med I have a question for all the Med School students out there. I think I may want to do Neurosurgery (don't laugh yet). My aunt recently passed away (December 26, 2006) due to a brain tumor and that has made consider it even more than I already had. So here is my question, if I don't match into Neurosurgery (I know it is very competitive) is there another way to get into Neuro? I mean is this an instance where I am screwed if I don't match? Thanks for your input.

I think the average step 1 score is 232 for neurosurg (makes it competitive but realistic if you really want it). But the interesting thing was the people who dont match have an average of like 215 or something in the teens. The really competitive residencies like derm and plastics have averages near 240, usually around 238. I guess six points isnt that much of a difference, now that i think aboout it, but it seems fairly significant. I dont know of any other way to get into neurosurgery without matching into it though. You can put other specialties in your ranked list when your apply for the match and if you dont get what you want you can still match with something further down your list. I think reapplying to match is like reapplying to med school though, not a total deal breaker but you should try to avoid it.

 

[beefballs]

maybe when your house burns down, you'll wanna be a firefighter then.

lemme light a match.

you are a twisted little man....and that is why I like you