Returning books to the program after graduation

[Formalin Addict]

Is there some new trend or regulation where books that residents purchase through their book fund are required to be returned to the program at the completion of residency? Our program has recently implemented this change. However if you spend the money on travelling you're not required to give anything back.

Thoughts?

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[exPCM]

Is there some new trend or regulation where books that residents purchase through their book fund are required to be returned to the program at the completion of residency? Our program has recently implemented this change. However if you spend the money on travelling you're not required to give anything back.

Thoughts?

There is no trend. Your program director must be a complete ***hole to implement such a policy. Programs that pull this kind of stuff don't deserve to have residents IMHO. If you feel comfortable it might be good to name the program to see if the negative publicity might cause them to change their tune. If you do name them I would retire your "Formalin Addict" member name and register with a new member name for any future posts you make on these forums.

 

[gbwillner]

Is there some new trend or regulation where books that residents purchase through their book fund are required to be returned to the program at the completion of residency? Our program has recently implemented this change. However if you spend the money on travelling you're not required to give anything back.

Thoughts?

Why would they want your busted old-school books anyway? This sounds really dumb. I would smear my books with baby diapers before returning them if I were you.

 

[green mantis]

Is there some new trend or regulation where books that residents purchase through their book fund are required to be returned to the program at the completion of residency? Our program has recently implemented this change. However if you spend the money on travelling you're not required to give anything back.

Thoughts?

I sounds like a pretty silly idea to me. If you have 4 people in your class & everyone bought Sternberg, why would the program want 4, likely out-of-print, copies of the book? Where are they even going to keep all of them?

In the end, it's their money, & they can do what they choose. Not every program gives their residents book money. What sort of library does your program have? Are you able to check stuff out overnight?


----- Antony

 

[docbiohazard]

Only thing even remotely similar to this that I've ever seen involved the use of intramural grant funds in graduate school - if we purchased a laptop computer with the funds then the laptop was the ultimately the property of the grant committee to be returned to them at the end of the funding period. That was it. Never heard about that for resident books... sounds lame.

DBH

 

[pathstudent]

In the end, it's their money, & they can do what they choose. Not every program gives their residents book money. What sort of library does your program have? Are you able to check stuff out overnight?


----- Antony

No it's not their money. They are given money to educate us. In addition we do work for them and work many more hours than any employee would work for the same amount of money.

It's our time and it's our money

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8D_A2t1WIY&feature=related

 

[yaah]

We get a laptop which we return at the end of our training. But that's understandable, it's more like a loan of a department computer since they just directly give it to us.

This is very shady. Your "book fund money" is not for you to purchase books for the department. It is to purchase books for your own use. The department has its own money to purchase books for general use in the residents' room. I would report this to the GME office at your institution if they persist with it. Or bring it up with an attending in the department who advocates for residents (if you have any).

 

[deschutes]

That stinks. I would raise a ruckus, nicely of course - easier said than done, but residents are not completely powerless. Seeing what other programs are doing and then bringing that information back to your program is a start. At our program this year residents have been allowed to buy laptops but I think those get returned at the end of residency. Nothing changed for books - residents keep those.

 

[yaah]

This sounds like a program that would charge a resident a fee if they ordered a recut.

 

[Formalin Addict]

We're not allowed to order recuts for ourselves at our main institution, only at the VA.

My program is at the University of Oklahoma, for those interested.

 

[sohsie]

Wow, thats really pathetic.

That hospital should be ashamed of themselves.

What exactly are they goig to do with the books anyway, resell them?

Wouldn't they want their residents to get recuts of good cases so they can learn?

 

[LADoc00]

Is there some new trend or regulation where books that residents purchase through their book fund are required to be returned to the program at the completion of residency? Our program has recently implemented this change. However if you spend the money on travelling you're not required to give anything back.

Thoughts?

Whoa, WHAT?

That is unprecedented for any business structure, academic or not. When you have an educational allowance, its yours similar to salary.

That would be akin to your PD asking for all unspent income when you graduate.

Either your PD has absolutely no f'ing common sense (most likely the case) or you misunderstood.

If he/she is serious then would advise you to use all monies for review courses.

 

[SLUsagar]

We're not allowed to order recuts for ourselves at our main institution, only at the VA.

My program is at the University of Oklahoma, for those interested.

Do you have to return the toilet paper back on the roll after you guys wipe your asses?

These restrictions and rules by your program are absolutely ridiculous. Thank you for disclaiming your program though, I think ANYONE even thinking of coming here for residency should be aware of your insider information.

 

[HCE]

Whoa, WHAT?

That is unprecedented for any business structure, academic or not. When you have an educational allowance, its yours similar to salary.

That would be akin to your PD asking for all unspent income when you graduate.

Either your PD has absolutely no f'ing common sense (most likely the case) or you misunderstood.

If he/she is serious then would advise you to use all monies for review courses.

I assume no taxes are paid on the book allowance. Wonder what is the penalty for not returning the books...librarian lobbing grenades into your living room?

 

[Tiki]

One of the places I did an away at last year had the same policy---the residents weren't allowed to keep the books when they left.

 

[docbiohazard]

One of the places I did an away at last year had the same policy---the residents weren't allowed to keep the books when they left.

Man, talk about a question I never would've even thought to ask on interviews... "So the books I buy with my book fund? I get to keep those, right?" Geeze...

2009 Applicants / wronged parties should proactively compile a "List of Shame" for any such programs (there must only be a couple) and post them here on SDN.

No such problems at my new home,
DBH

 

[listeriaismfb]

I struck two very prestigious NYC programs off my rank list because they did not even have a book fund when I interviewed there in 2002 for the 2003 match. Being able to use YOUR books at YOUR leisure is great, and graduating from the program with a nice personal library is a tremendous perk.

I wonder what would happen if everyone who graduated from your place protested and refused to give them back....

Your program is being shortsighted, and when the word gets out to residency candidates it won't look good for them.

What in the hell are they going to do with six (highlighted, underlined, dogeared or otherwise abused) copies of Rosai anyway?

 

[earmuff]

F'd up program. See other "f'd up program" post. ****ty world we live in.

 

[FormalinFixed]

I am also a resident at the University of Oklahoma and wanted to clarify this issue before it gets any further out of hand. This policy on books purchased with our book fund money is not something that was implemented by the program director. The issue is that our "book fund" is actually provided by state funds, and as such, the books are state property.

State funds are not to be used for anything that would provide one with a tangible benefit after they have completed their residency training (thus, there is no problem with using this fund for educational/professional travel, Osler review, etc). Therefore, we are technically supposed to return the books at the end of residency as mandated by state law. Other programs may provide funds from department money, and in that case, the decision to keep the books would be up to the department.

As for the recuts, I have never had trouble ordering recuts at either the university hospital or at the VA. There evidently was some trouble in the past with residents abusing the privilege and ordering a lot of recuts on older, archived cases. This put a strain on the histotech's workload (and cost the department money). As long as an attending agrees with the recut request (and you don't go overboard) there generally has not been a problem.

I hope that clarified the issues somewhat. This is definitely not a sign of malignancy (although I do hope we can find some solution to the book problem, and I think we will. I really don't want to drop my tattered copy of Rosai off at the state capital on the way out). If you have any questions about this issue or about the University of Oklahoma program in general, please feel free to PM me.

 

[gbwillner]

I am also a resident at the University of Oklahoma and wanted to clarify this issue before it gets any further out of hand. This policy on books purchased with our book fund money is not something that was implemented by the program director. The issue is that our "book fund" is actually provided by state funds, and as such, the books are state property.

State funds are not to be used for anything that would provide one with a tangible benefit after they have completed their residency training (thus, there is no problem with using this fund for educational/professional travel, Osler review, etc). Therefore, we are technically supposed to return the books at the end of residency as mandated by state law. Other programs may provide funds from department money, and in that case, the decision to keep the books would be up to the department.

As for the recuts, I have never had trouble ordering recuts at either the university hospital or at the VA. There evidently was some trouble in the past with residents abusing the privilege and ordering a lot of recuts on older, archived cases. This put a strain on the histotech's workload (and cost the department money). As long as an attending agrees with the recut request (and you don't go overboard) there generally has not been a problem.

I hope that clarified the issues somewhat. This is definitely not a sign of malignancy (although I do hope we can find some solution to the book problem, and I think we will. I really don't want to drop my tattered copy of Rosai off at the state capital on the way out). If you have any questions about this issue or about the University of Oklahoma program in general, please feel free to PM me.

What happens if you don't return the books? Do they send the DA after you?

 

[LADoc00]

I find it laughable and SAD that programs with budgets in the tens of millions, profits in the several millions and bonuses as high as 2 million to some pathologists cant see their way into providing $2,000 in books/year per resident. This is literally a case of the greedy not even willing to part with table scraps for the impoverished who slave for them. There is no doubt in my mind residency programs need to be eliminated, those programs that survive need to be cut 50%, at least.

 

[earmuff]

I find it laughable and SAD that programs with budgets in the tens of millions, profits in the several millions and bonuses as high as 2 million to some pathologists cant see their way into providing $2,000 in books/year per resident. This is literally a case of the greedy not even willing to part with table scraps for the impoverished who slave for them. There is no doubt in my mind residency programs need to be eliminated, those programs that survive need to be cut 50%, at least.

Agreed, stick it to the man!

As long as they don't cut my residency spot.

 

[FormalinFixed]

What happens if you don't return the books? Do they send the DA after you?

I'm not really sure what would happen. I am picturing a high-speed motorcycle chase through the medical campus. I am throwing textbooks over my shoulder at the pursuing statie trying to slow him down (I'll start with the Quick Clinical Compendium series).

 

[listeriaismfb]

If the book funds are mentioned specifically in your annual contract you can successfully fight this. Unilateral contract law stipulates that they cannot change the terms without your expressed written consent. Period.

Half (if not more) of the dollars that support residents come from Uncle Sam. Would it kill the program to say that the books came from Uncle Sam instead of the state's bit?