RFA questions

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GottaHaveIt

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I had a couple of questions pop up and wanted your opinions.

1. Patients with implants such as pacemaker/defibrillator, what kind of precautions do you take when performing RFA in this population? Do you put a magnet over the implanted device, perform bipolar RFA, or do you just avoid RFA in this case altogether?

2. Cervical RFAs - are any of you using the coolief needles to do this with the 2mm active tip?

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I RFA ppl all the time with cardiac devices and I don't even think about it. There is nothing you need to do other than make sure they stay on their anticoagulation...

I don't do coolief, but I do cervical ablations all the time with 20g needles, usually posterior approach and occasionally lateral.
 
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I had a couple of questions pop up and wanted your opinions.

2. Cervical RFAs - are any of you using the coolief needles to do this with the 2mm active tip?

Yep, 2mm for cervical. 4 for everything else
 
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I RFA ppl all the time with cardiac devices and I don't even think about it. There is nothing you need to do other than make sure they stay on their anticoagulation...

I don't do coolief, but I do cervical ablations all the time with 20g needles, usually posterior approach and occasionally lateral.
[/QUOTE
cervical RF with AICD you need to use a magnet
 
Not what it says.

There are no known reports of RFN procedures for spine pain causing ICD or PPM dysfunction that lead to serious injury or death.
The American Society of Anesthesiology has advised that for both ICD/PPM the grounding electrode be placed >15cm away from pacing leads, and consideration of including a device representative or electrophysiologist for consideration of placing a magnet over the device or altering the mode.
Only place magnet if told to do so by Cards.


Full data:

 
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Not what it says.

There are no known reports of RFN procedures for spine pain causing ICD or PPM dysfunction that lead to serious injury or death.
The American Society of Anesthesiology has advised that for both ICD/PPM the grounding electrode be placed >15cm away from pacing leads, and consideration of including a device representative or electrophysiologist for consideration of placing a magnet over the device or altering the mode.
Only place magnet if told to do so by Cards.


Full data:


From the same article:

For ICD, device manufacturers recommend deactivating tachy therapy prior to the RFN procedure [7]. This can be accomplished by re-programming or putting a magnet over the device [7].

I have had one go off multiple times during a cervical RFA when pt “forgot he has an AICD”
 
From the same article:

For ICD, device manufacturers recommend deactivating tachy therapy prior to the RFN procedure [7]. This can be accomplished by re-programming or putting a magnet over the device [7].

I have had one go off multiple times during a cervical RFA when pt “forgot he has an AICD”

Worthy of publication. Where was grounding pad? Needle start and finish? After the first pop, did you think you should have pulled needles and called 911?
 
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Worthy of publication. Where was grounding pad? Needle start and finish? After the first pop, did you think you should have pulled needles and called 911?
Grounding pad was on the opposite leg. Cervical RFA. The first time it went off he jerked and complained of pain. When it went off again I figured it out and placed a magnet. EKG monitoring and vitals were normal. No indication for 911. The guy was fine. We proceeded with a magnet. Came back the next week for the other side and did fine.
 
Grounding pad was on the opposite leg. Cervical RFA. The first time it went off he jerked and complained of pain. When it went off again I figured it out and placed a magnet. EKG monitoring and vitals were normal. No indication for 911. The guy was fine. We proceeded with a magnet. Came back the next week for the other side and did fine.

Device goes off and you keep going? Ballsy. I would have bailed and had device checked.

Please place grounding pad as close as possible to operative site to minimize risk.
 
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Device goes off and you keep going? Ballsy. I would have bailed and had device checked.

Please place grounding pad as close as possible to operative site to minimize risk.
2 cervical pts with pacemaker for me where I’ve seen interference - pad R scapula, pacer L chest. One patient there were pauses in the paced rhythm, up to a couple seconds. The other the rate rose to 80 and stayed there while the RF was running.
I get cardiology clearance for management recs, and keep the pad as far from the device as possible (lumbar I’ve never had an issue).
 
Pacemaker only - I place magnet.
AICD - to be perfectly safe, I have rep turn off temporarily.

might seem a little difficult because some ppl do not even know what they have, but from a safety standpoint, every patient should know who their rep is and how to contact them. This is an opportunity for them to learn and become more aware of their implanted device.
 
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Yep, 2mm for cervical. 4 for everything else


Have you had any issues with cervical RFA using coolief? My attendings are afraid of inadvertent injury to the cervical roots so we don't do them here. We do traditional RFA using the posterior approach. My future job wants me to be able to do cervical using coolief. The technique seems pretty straight forward (basically going straight down onto the lateral mass, how some of the attendings do the trial block anyway).
 
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I RFA ppl all the time with cardiac devices and I don't even think about it. There is nothing you need to do other than make sure they stay on their anticoagulation...

I don't do coolief, but I do cervical ablations all the time with 20g needles, usually posterior approach and occasionally lateral.


You do the RFAs with patients continuing their anticoagulation? Is there no need to stop X days prior to these procedures?
 
You do the RFAs with patients continuing their anticoagulation? Is there no need to stop X days prior to these procedures?

Never stop AC for facet interventions.
 
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Have you had any issues with cervical RFA using coolief? My attendings are afraid of inadvertent injury to the cervical roots so we don't do them here. We do traditional RFA using the posterior approach. My future job wants me to be able to do cervical using coolief. The technique seems pretty straight forward (basically going straight down onto the lateral mass, how some of the attendings do the trial block anyway).

I honestly can’t think of one “issue”. Lateral approach is fine. I use traditional posterior approach though
 
Wow very interesting stuff. I remember reading something from SIS that said no need to hold AC for lumbar MBB but wasn't sure how many people follow those recommendations.
 
I had a couple of questions pop up and wanted your opinions.

1. Patients with implants such as pacemaker/defibrillator, what kind of precautions do you take when performing RFA in this population? Do you put a magnet over the implanted device, perform bipolar RFA, or do you just avoid RFA in this case altogether?

2. Cervical RFAs - are any of you using the coolief needles to do this with the 2mm active tip?

I agree that you can RFA per SIS in the setting of pacemakers.
I have done Coolief with the 2 mm tips with a lateral approach but reserve it for patients that have done well with blocks but did not have durable ablative response to conventional RF.
 
ASRA recommends holding AC prior to cervical RFA

Nobody should care what ASRA states. Next time you hold Eliquis for a C3-5 RFA and your pt strokes out please make sure you pay them a visit at the nursing home and do your best to convince the family you just did what you were told to do by doctors who don't live in reality.

I would testify against you BTW...As a dumb jock I'm not overly smart though...So you'd be fine, but I would try at least.
 
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Right, likewise if you have a complication related to hematoma formation any lawyer will point right to the ASRA guidelines. I agree with you.
 
Right, likewise if you have a complication related to hematoma formation any lawyer will point right to the ASRA guidelines. I agree with you.

Tell me more about those hematomas.
 
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They certainly are bad, but the likelihood of a hematoma developing after an RFA is greater or lesser than the likelihood of a vascular event in a pt who stops anticoagulation for atrial fibrillation?

If a pt is s/p CVA and is on Plavix with a nasty cervical pain syndrome they're just screwed I guess? That's a pretty absurd state of affairs IMO.

Which is a treatable condition - Stroke or hematoma?

This conversation really irks me bc there a very incompetent gentleman in my practice who stops all thinners for all injxns, including aspirin for an L4-5 facet CSI...

It is maddening and wholly ridiculous.

Only time I stop AC is stimulators and ILESI. Haven't ever done a sympathetic on a pt requiring AC, but I'd stop it for a stellate...Not sure about LSB. I think we're all going to look back at stopping AC for lumbar TFESI and facet interventions and be really embarrassed in the future.
 
It seems like holding AC is a controversial topic here so I don’t want to stir the pot too much. However, I feel like it would be easier defending myself in court if I follow the relevant societal guidelines and something bad happens rather than if I don’t follow the guidelines and something bad happens. Just my relatively simplistic take on the issue.
 
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They certainly are bad, but the likelihood of a hematoma developing after an RFA is greater or lesser than the likelihood of a vascular event in a pt who stops anticoagulation for atrial fibrillation?

If a pt is s/p CVA and is on Plavix with a nasty cervical pain syndrome they're just screwed I guess? That's a pretty absurd state of affairs IMO.

Which is a treatable condition - Stroke or hematoma?

This conversation really irks me bc there a very incompetent gentleman in my practice who stops all thinners for all injxns, including aspirin for an L4-5 facet CSI...

It is maddening and wholly ridiculous.

Only time I stop AC is stimulators and ILESI. Haven't ever done a sympathetic on a pt requiring AC, but I'd keep that pt on it for a stellate...Not sure about LSB.

sorry I should have made it more clear I was joking. I agree especially when being careful with ap and lateral imaging that a significant hematoma resulting in any notable temporary let alone permanent defect is highly unlikely. Hematomas require confined spaces to cause problems.
 
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Nobody should care what ASRA states. Next time you hold Eliquis for a C3-5 RFA and your pt strokes out please make sure you pay them a visit at the nursing home and do your best to convince the family you just did what you were told to do by doctors who don't live in reality.

I would testify against you BTW...As a dumb jock I'm not overly smart though...So you'd be fine, but I would try at least.
It is not just ASRA that recommends holding anticoagulation for cervical RFA. There are consensus guidelines published by 6 different pain societies which include the American Society of Regional Anesthesia and Pain Medicine, the European Society of Regional Anaesthesia and Pain Therapy, the American Academy of Pain Medicine, the International Neuromodulation Society, the North American Neuromodulation Society, and the World Institute of Pain. All of these societies unanimously agreed that anticoagulation should be held for cervical RFA procedures (and cervical medial branch nerve blocks as well).

 
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It is not just ASRA that recommends holding anticoagulation for cervical RFA. There are consensus guidelines published by 6 different pain societies which include the American Society of Regional Anesthesia and Pain Medicine, the European Society of Regional Anaesthesia and Pain Therapy, the American Academy of Pain Medicine, the International Neuromodulation Society, the North American Neuromodulation Society, and the World Institute of Pain. All of these societies unanimously agreed that anticoagulation should be held for cervical RFA procedures (and cervical medial branch nerve blocks as well).


You interested in protecting yourself or your patient?

We will look back at this in the future and realize it was wrong.

Also...I know that article. Thanks...
 
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They certainly are bad, but the likelihood of a hematoma developing after an RFA is greater or lesser than the likelihood of a vascular event in a pt who stops anticoagulation for atrial fibrillation?

If a pt is s/p CVA and is on Plavix with a nasty cervical pain syndrome they're just screwed I guess? That's a pretty absurd state of affairs IMO.

Which is a treatable condition - Stroke or hematoma?

This conversation really irks me bc there a very incompetent gentleman in my practice who stops all thinners for all injxns, including aspirin for an L4-5 facet CSI...

It is maddening and wholly ridiculous.

Only time I stop AC is stimulators and ILESI. Haven't ever done a sympathetic on a pt requiring AC, but I'd stop it for a stellate...Not sure about LSB. I think we're all going to look back at stopping AC for lumbar TFESI and facet interventions and be really embarrassed in the future.
There are at least 2 recent case reports of lumbar transforaminal epidural steroid injections causing epidural hematomas.
 
There are at least 2 recent case reports of lumbar transforaminal epidural steroid injections causing epidural hematomas.

How many pts have suffered vascular events recently after holding AC for lumbar TFESI?

That case report says exactly what I mentioned earlier - It was evacuated and the pt did well.

Thrombectomy doesn't always work when you stroke, assuming you have a medical facility you can get to in a timely manner to get it done.
 
You interested in protecting yourself or your patient?

We will look back at this in the future and realize it was wrong.

Also...I know that article. Thanks...
I agree that this guidance is questionable in this case. Just like you, I do not hold anticoagulation for cervical MBB/RFA. However, we need to be aware of what the guidelines state as they are most likely to be considered standard of care in a court of law.
 
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I RFA ppl all the time with cardiac devices and I don't even think about it. There is nothing you need to do other than make sure they stay on their anticoagulation...

I don't do coolief, but I do cervical ablations all the time with 20g needles, usually posterior approach and occasionally lateral.
any precautions you take for cervical? what if they have an AICD? do you turn it off?
 
Maybe I am just conservative but not holding AC for tfesi seems a little aggressive. You're accessing the epidural space in a non compressible area with large venous plexuses.
 
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Here is letter to editor after Endres 17 article:

Regarding the Safety of Interventional Pain Procedures in the Setting of Anticoagulation
Nafisseh S. Warner, MD, Susan M. Moeschler, MD, Jason S. Eldrige, MD
Pain Medicine, Volume 18, Issue 4, April 2017, Pages 819–820, Regarding the Safety of Interventional Pain Procedures in the Setting of Anticoagulation
Published:

24 April 2017

Issue Section:
Letters to the Editor
Dear Editor,
The recent study by Endres and colleagues was read with great interest [1]. It seeks to shed light on a very relevant topic—how can we safely provide pain interventions for the growing population of patients on antithrombotic therapy? While their experience is intriguing for pain interventionists, there are several considerations that merit further clarification.
First, details regarding the protocol for anticoagulation discontinuation are notably absent. As an example, when discontinuing warfarin, which patients received bridging therapy and how was bridging performed? It is well accepted that high-risk patients, including those with CHADS2 scores of 4 or higher [2], recent venous thromboembolic disease [3], and most mechanical heart valves [3], are likely to require bridging therapy with unfractionated or low molecular weight heparin. The paucity of information about these essential patient-specific clinical characteristics makes it unclear whether thrombotic complications occurred in the setting of inadequate bridging or if they were due to unanticipated thrombosis in patients despite appropriate bridging therapy. These details are necessary before conclusions can be drawn regarding the safety of peri-procedural antithrombotic use, at least in terms of understanding the true relative risks of thrombotic complications when discontinuing vs continuing warfarin therapy. Similar considerations apply to those on antiplatelet agents (e.g., clopidogrel, aspirin/dypridamole) following percutaneous coronary interventions or acute intracranial ischemic events.
Second, while this study is large in size, it is actually quite small in relation to the estimated incidence of bleeding complications following such procedures. For example, in the regional anesthesia literature, the incidence of epidural hematoma is estimated to be approximately one to two for every 100,000 procedures [4]. Assuming a similar bleeding rate for interventional pain procedures, this study is significantly underpowered to provide definitive commentary on the risk of bleeding events, regardless of the presence or absence of anticoagulant therapy. Additionally, details regarding the definition of complications or “adverse effects” would benefit from further clarification. What constituted an adverse effect—bleeding requiring evaluation in the emergency department, motor deficits requiring urgent neurologic evaluation, or perhaps drops in hemoglobin concentration?
Third, it would greatly enhance the study’s impact to report preprocedural international normalized ratio (INR) values. One must recall that INR is not a simple linear scale that directly reflects the severity of anticoagulation. Rather, the INR is a nonlinear, exponential scale primarily sensitive to changes in factor VII levels [5]. As such, one may anticipate marked differences in factor level activity despite seemingly small changes in INR (e.g., comparing INR values of 2 and 3); this, in turn, likely correlates with bleeding risk. With nearly 5,000 procedures performed, reporting of the preprocedural INR values would be of great clinical relevance.
In summary, the work presented by Endres and colleagues is a notable addition to the pain medicine literature, and we applaud the authors for their efforts. However, clinicians require further information regarding this patient population. Additional studies are needed to clarify risks and benefits for patients on antithrombotic therapy undergoing interventional procedures. Specifically, it is unlikely that simple continuation of antithrombotic medications is a “one-size-fits-all” answer to this complicated issue. Further study is needed to identify those patients best served by antithrombotic discontinuation and how to do so safely.
Funding sources: No funding sources were used to support this manuscript.
Conflicts of interest: None.
References
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Response to above letter:

Response to Warner Letter
Stephen Endres, MD, Nikolai Bogduk, MD
Pain Medicine, Volume 18, Issue 4, April 2017, Pages 820–821, Response to Warner Letter
Published:

24 April 2017

Issue Section:
Letters to the Editor
Dear Editor,
For various reasons, it is not always possible to include in a manuscript all the details in which readers might be interested. The Letterto the Editor section provides a means by which readers can ask for supplementary information, and by which authors can provide it.
Warner et al. cite a reference that provides an estimate of two in 100,000 for the prevalence of epidural hematoma. Warner N, Moeschler S, Eldrige J. Regarding the safety of interventional pain procedures in the setting of anticoagulation. Pain Med 2017;18:813–814. Of this we are aware, but the key feature is that this is an estimate; it is not a formal prospective count. We look forward to publications from anyone who can monitor 100,000 consecutive cases in order to produce a reliable count. Nevertheless, this “estimate” and the case reports to which we referred indicate that the risk of epidural hematoma following interlaminar procedures is not zero; and theoretically it would be greater in patients who are anticoagulated. Whether or not a risk of two in 100,000 is acceptable, especially for a procedure of contentious benefit, is an ethical question that bears consideration but is outside the brief of our published study. We do emphasize, however, that because of the reputed nonzero risk of hematoma, in no patient in our study did we continue anticoagulants during interlaminar injections.
Still in the realm of biostatistics, Warner et al. lament the small sample sizes in our study. This is why we reported 95% confidence intervals. These adjust the observed prevalence for sample size. It transpires that for procedures for which we had ample sample sizes we could statistically exclude a risk greater than 0.2%, viz. two in 1,000. To tighten these confidence intervals effectively to zero would require a study of 8,000 consecutive cases. For this we do not have the resources. However, our results serve to reassure would-be investigators that if they continue anticoagulants for spine pain procedures they are unlikely to encounter an epidemic of complications.
We did collect data on international normalized ratios. For patients in whom warfarin was continued, the mean value was 2.3, with a standard deviation of 0.6 and a range of 0.9 to 4.5. In those in whom warfarin was stopped, the values were 1.2 ± 0.4, with a range of 0.1 to 4.1. Remarkable in these values is the number of patients whose values were below or above the recommended therapeutic range, despite having been monitored by their treating physician. These aberrations underscore the importance of checking the patient’s value before embarking on a pain procedure, irrespective of whether or not warfarin is to be continued.
Our protocol for discontinuing anticoagulants was that, in all cases, the prescribing cardiologist decided whether the anticoagulant could be stopped or not, and how to stop it. At all times, the option obtained was retained of not performing the intended procedure.
Bridging therapy is a proposition that has not been explored in the context of spine pain procedures and was not entertained in our study. In essence, bridging therapy involves replacing a long-acting anticoagulant with frequently repeated doses of a short-acting agent, such as heparin, in order to provide a short window of opportunity during which the short-acting agent can be briefly withheld only for the duration of the procedure to be performed, after which the original agent can be reinstated. However, bridging therapy is tantamount to not ceasing anticoagulants. The thrust of our conclusions is that for innocuous procedures anticoagulants do not need to be ceased. Under those conditions, the original anticoagulant can be maintained, without the need for complex bridging therapy. It is only for interlaminar procedures that bridging therapy might be an entertainable intervention. However, it would be a demanding study that proved statistically that bridging therapy keeps the rate of complications to the estimated rate of two in 100,000.
With respect to adverse events, our patients were closely monitored, especially for serious complications in patients who continued anticoagulants. That monitoring allowed for collection of reports of other adverse events, such as troublesome local bleeding or non-neurologic complications that required medical attention, but none were reported.
We trust that this additional information reassures readers about our study and its conclusions. Common spine pain procedures have a low risk of serious hemorrhagic complications, which might be zero. On the other hand, ceasing anticoagulants has a low, but nonzero, risk of serious medical morbidity.


Summing it up: Both sides who know more than us have had the argument. Pick your winner.
If patient bleeds- you may get sued.
If patient has MI/CVA: you may get sued.
Weigh your risks vs benefits and roll those 150000 sided dice.
 
any precautions you take for cervical? what if they have an AICD? do you turn it off?

I don't do anything TBH. I just do the procedure.
 
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Maybe I am just conservative but not holding AC for tfesi seems a little aggressive. You're accessing the epidural space in a non compressible area with large venous plexuses.

I recognize that when discussing a topic on an internet forum there is no tone or facial expression involved so it may read like I am running a super risky practice, but I am not terrified of venous bleeding (of course I respect the potential for disaster)...That is a low pressure system, and keep in mind the fact spine surgery commonly fills the entire epidural space without an issue. Like, CTL epidural space full of blood.

Having said that, I certainly DO care about bleeding. Of course I do...I just do not see venous bleeding the same as arterial, and it is a treatable condition, which a CVA is not.

If I have a pt with atrial fibrillation who is going to get any MBB/RFA we stay on it...Lumbar TFESI L3-S1 or caudal stay on it. TFESI L2 or higher we have to talk about this (I rarely do L2 or higher - L3 with 3 or 4 cc of volume covers a large territory).

BTW - Notice that case report posted above is an L2-3 TFESI.

I don't do cervical TFESI (only C7-T1 ILESI).

I stop thinners for all ILESI.

I have a few pts on dual AC - Eliquis and Coumadin, Plavix and Eliquis, Plavix and Coumadin, etc...I have injected these ppl (TFESI & RFA) but they have to stop one thinner.

Unfortunately, pain doctors have to accept some level of risk to protect their pts.

It matters a lot WHY the pt takes AC - AFib is not the same as a stent placed 3 yrs ago...Hold the AC for the TFESI in a stent placed 3 yrs ago. AFib is legitimately dangerous with the potential to cause irreversible harm to your pt...So I should stress that I treat those pts different.
 
Sorry about my above post. SDN would not let me edit it. I deleted the extra stuff to make it readable and attached two PDFs of articles discussing the topic from a do not stop AC favorable side.
Pain Medicine 2017 Stephen Endres.
 
I agree that this guidance is questionable in this case. Just like you, I do not hold anticoagulation for cervical MBB/RFA. However, we need to be aware of what the guidelines state as they are most likely to be considered standard of care in a court of law.
Not quite. Guidelines are guidelines not standard of care. The standard of care is the local standard, i.e. what a similar physician in your area would do. I would guarantee a physician would find another to back him/her up for RFing while on AC.
 
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Do you guys ever get plavix levels prior to doing a TFESI. Reluctantly did a TFESI on an inpatient today that they had been holding plavix for 7 days. After the injection realized they had obtained a "plavix level" yesterday. From what I can make of it, the level wasn't completely back to normal but rather had 30% ongoing anti platelet effect present. Wondering if I need to be worried. Used a 25 g needle btw
 
Do you guys ever get plavix levels prior to doing a TFESI. Reluctantly did a TFESI on an inpatient today that they had been holding plavix for 7 days. After the injection realized they had obtained a "plavix level" yesterday. From what I can make of it, the level wasn't completely back to normal but rather had 30% ongoing anti platelet effect present. Wondering if I need to be worried. Used a 25 g needle btw
With that procedure, I’d say no. 30% effect plavix probably isn’t any worse than ASA.
 
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TEG is the answer to everything. It is weird we can't ever order or use it. IT is weird the labs don't have the TEG machine.
 
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TEG is the answer to everything. It is weird we can't ever order or use it. IT is weird the labs don't have the TEG machine.
I’ve always loved TEG too and wish it was accessible. I used it once on a post op epidural patient with no known heme history, whose routine post-op labs came back at an INR>2. It never came down and we needed the catheter out, so we checked a TEG, which came back completely normal. Pulled it, ordered serial neuro checks, and he was fine.
 
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Thanks for all the responses so far.

I had some more questions come up.

3. Do you use any steroid after to reduce the painful neuritis symptoms? Or what do you recommend for the first 10 period for post-procedure discomfort?

4. How much local do you typically use for the RFAs? What do you use prior to the burning? 1%, 2%, 0.25%, 0.5%?

Also bonus question since we somehow ended up on TFESI, how many of you put some anesthetic in your injectate?
 
Thanks for all the responses so far.

I had some more questions come up.

3. Do you use any steroid after to reduce the painful neuritis symptoms? Or what do you recommend for the first 10 period for post-procedure discomfort?


4. How much local do you typically use for the RFAs? What do you use prior to the burning? 1%, 2%, 0.25%, 0.5%?

Also bonus question since we somehow ended up on TFESI, how many of you put some anesthetic in your injectate?

1. I do, 1 cc of steroid total spread amongst all needles.
2. 1 cc of 2% lido prior to burn
3. 1 cc of 1% per tfesi needle plus dex and saline. 3 cc per level total
 
No steroid for RFN
1 ml 2% lido through each cannula and WAIT AT LEAST 90 SECONDS.
No local in TFESI - too many patients with weak legs and no benefit overall.
 
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1. Occasionally some Depo after a lumbar RFA, commonly dex after cervical RFA.

2. Prior to burn I do 1cc of either 2% lido, 0.5% ropi, or a mix of the two and wait 2 min before burning.

3. Local occasionally on an epidural. Usually not, but sometimes. If an acute radic or severe flare of chronic radic I'll put local. Usually bupi 0.25%.
 
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